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Video: Bachmann takes down Ron Paul on Iran (Plus a wrap-up of last night's debate)
Hotair ^ | 12/16/2011 | Ed Morrissey

Posted on 12/16/2011 8:02:44 AM PST by SeekAndFind

I can't guarantee you that this will be the last video we post from last night's debate, but it's probably going to be the most memorable — after Rick Perry's gestalt-grasping clip in which he declared himself the “Tim Tebow of the Iowa Caucuses,” that is. In this clip, Michele Bachmann goes after Ron Paul on Iran and national security as if she takes him seriously. Paul is reduced to sputtering a non-sequitur about how wrong it is to declare war on 1.2 billion Muslims, which isn’t at all what Bachmann said, and more or less becomes unable to complete most of his own sentences, the majority of which are also non-sequiturs. No matter what one thinks of Bachmann, you can’t deny her ability to get under the skin of other candidates:

CLICK ABOVE LINK FOR THE VIDEO

One of my favorite moments in this debate came when Paul tells Bachmann that the “UN” never said any such thing, and then in the next breath says they weren’t telling the truth when they did. It provoked a few laughs from the audience and a whole avalanche of derision on Twitter. The mask well and truly slipped for Paul in this final debate.

So how did the Republican candidates do? Mitt Romney started off strong and was having one of his best debates in weeks until Chris Wallace asked him about his position switches on abortion, gay rights, and gun laws. He gave a good answer on his transformation to pro-life, but left himself wide open on gay rights. Rick Santorum had his best moment of the debate when he methodically walked through what Romney actually did and said on defending marriage. That didn’t turn the night into a disaster, but Romney didn’t finish strong. Santorum did well last night, too, and given his blanketing of Iowa for the last several months, might have given voters there a reason to give him a second look.

Gingrich had a better debate all the way through, but he took a few slings and arrows along the way. He took some hits on Freddie Mac again, especially from Bachmann, but gave a good rebuttal to those attacks — although clearly no one is thinking that Freddie Mac hired him as a historian. Bachmann scored on the argument that one doesn’t have to be a formal lobbyist to influence people in Washington, and it seems foolish to argue that Freddie Mac didn’t hire him as a consultant for his influence on public policy as a former Speaker. No one is buying the “historian” idea. Otherwise, Gingrich gave a feisty and charismatic performance, or at least charismatic in Gingrich’s terms. He didn’t do any damage to himself, and at the least Gingrich gave himself some room to reclaim a little of his lost momentum.

Rick Perry had the best risk/reward outcome in the debate. As I predicted, no one on stage went on the attack against Perry, and that meant Perry didn’t have to go on the attack against anyone else. The Tebow reference was obviously planned, and brilliant; it’s catchy, timely, easily understood as a deep underdog prevailing through faith in himself and God despite being dismissed by everyone else as the clock starts running out. Perry didn’t get quite as much face time as other candidates, but he made the most of it. After two good debates, and this latest especially strong performance, Perry now gets to do the retail politicking at which he excels without having to engage in any extemporaneous exchanges with other candidates. He could turn this into a comeback, and really be the Tim Tebow of the Iowa Caucuses. Don’t count him out.

As for Bachmann, she had a good evening as well, but made a couple of big mistakes. After scoring points on Gingrich on Freddie Mac, she overshot the mark by accusing Gingrich of trying to elect Republicans who back infanticide. Gingrich slapped back at Bachmann for not getting her facts straight, which has been a problem for Bachmann in the past. Even though Bachmann has regularly attacked other candidates for not telling the truth, at least as she sees it, she protested that her status as a candidate for President of the United States means that her facts are straight, and that it’s “outrageous” to suggest otherwise:

Bachmann earlier had cited Politifact as stating that she had all her facts straight in the last debate, a strange thing to do since Politifact has been roundly critical of Bachmann’s debate claims for months. Sure enough, immediately after the debate, they gave her a Pants On Fire rating for that claim:

At that point, Bachmann jumped back in. “Well, after the debates that we had last week, PolitiFact came out and said that everything that I said was true. And the evidence is that Speaker Gingrich took $1.6 million. You don’t need to be within the technical definition of being a lobbyist to still be influence-peddling with senior Republicans in Washington, D.C., to get them to do your bidding.”

Wait… what? We said that “everything” Bachmann had said was true?

Actually, that’s not what we said.

At the Dec. 10 debate she was referring to, PolitiFact checked two claims from Bachmann and rated them Mostly True and Pants on Fire.

The fact-check she may have been referencing was, “In 1993, Newt Gingrich ‘first advocated for the individual mandate in health care. And as recently as May of this year, he was still advocating’ for it.” We rated that one a Mostly True.

But we also rated her claim that Mitt Romney, as governor of Massachusetts, “put into place socialized medicine.” We found that was ridiculously false and rated it Pants on Fire.

Her comment about our ratings was also a bit of a non-sequitur. Neither of the two items we checked addressed the subject at hand — Gingrich’s work for Freddie Mac, what he thinks of Freddie Mac today, or whether Gingrich was ever a lobbyist.

Maybe Bachmann was simply trying to burnish her image as a truth teller. However, using PolitiFact to back up that assertion is a bit unusual. Her PolitiFact report card shows 59 percent of her statements rated have earned either a False or Pants on Fire. She has earned five Trues, three Mostly Trues, six Half Trues, seven Mostly Falses, 19 Falses and 11 Pants on Fires.

That’s so easily checkable that it’s almost unbelievable that Bachmann would cite Politifact as a specific authority on the subject. Has she not read their site and their evaluations of her statements? Their evaluations certainly put paid to the notion that being a presidential candidate means one should just assume you have your facts straight, too.

As for Jon Huntsman, it’s hard to see why he bothered to show up. He isn’t competing meaningfully in Iowa anyway. Huntsman didn’t offer any compelling narrative or responses last night, so he would have done better for his campaign to stay in New Hampshire and do some retail politicking in a state he’s taking seriously.

CLICK ABOVE LINK FOR ALL THE VIDEOS



TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; News/Current Events; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: 911truther; bachmann; debate; gopdebate; iowagopdebate; iran; libertarians; michelebachmann; paulistinians; paultardation; paultards; randpaultruthfile; ronpaul; ronpaultruthfile
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To: Psalm 144
I think that is why there is so much domestic discord and strife. The sane Persians realize they will be caught up in the same retributive firestorms as the aspiring martyrs, and are desperate to stop it.

There's probably not a more pro western population living under a more psychotic anti western government in the region. Then you throw in the natural desire for a national identity and it further confuses things.
51 posted on 12/16/2011 9:26:24 AM PST by cripplecreek (Stand with courage or shut up and do as you're told.)
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To: Darksheare

RE: The muslims aren’t attacking us because we are bombing them, we weren’t bombing them in 2001.

_______________________________________

Oh but we were.... remember the first Gulf War to take Saddam out of Kuwait? ( Ron Paul was against that too ). Of course, don’t forget the regular bombings of Iraq when Clinton was President. And oh yeah, Ron Paul did not like our involvement in Bosnia as well ( that was in the 1990’s ).

And of course to Ron Paul, this is the biggie -— We support and have always supported, “The Little Satan”, Israel ( which of course, in Ron Paul’s mind, makes us the BIG SATAN in the Islamic world ).


52 posted on 12/16/2011 9:30:31 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind

I know.
The response to RuPaul is:

Lockerbie, Achille Lauro, the Marine Barracks, etc.
They attacked us first, it’s about time we noticed.
Besides which, Saddam repeatedly violated his 1991 surrender agreement.
The surrender agreement stated that violating it meant an immediate return to a state of war.
Unfortunately, Clintoon was too much of a wimp who hated those of us who served to invoke the surrender agreement “or Else” clause.
No, he figured he’d help out the Yugoslav muslims and get us embroiled in Bosnia.

It’s also high time somebody figured out that we only have one real ally in the mideast, and they DON’T bow to Mecca...


53 posted on 12/16/2011 9:44:53 AM PST by Darksheare (You will never defeat Bok Choy!)
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To: stillafreemind

“When I listen to him (Ron Paul), I don’t THINK he wants to gut our defense...I THINK last night he said he wants a strong national defense. I just don’t THINK he wants to be all over the world in hassles that amount to U.S. money being spent, our soldiers blood being spilled and yet it’s not a war.”

That’s the big problem with Ron Paul. His replies are basically incoherent ramblings. You have to GUESS what he said.


54 posted on 12/16/2011 9:52:20 AM PST by Walrus (Big government is the natural enemy of liberty)
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To: SeekAndFind; mas cerveza por favor; rokkitapps; All
Bachman said that an “avowed madman” was going to drop nuclear bombs and Israel and American and then go on to take over the whole world.

And when you do a FACT CHECK on Bachmann's statements, Bachmann is totally full of crap.

"Los Angeles Times, Nov. 7:United Nations nuclear inspectors have concluded that Iran has acquired the technical means to design a nuclear weapon and would require about six months to enrich uranium to the quality needed for a bomb if it decided to do so, according to officials familiar with the evidence.

The Times story also said: “The IAEA report provides no ‘smoking gun’ proof that Iran’s government intends to build a nuclear weapon, said a European diplomat.” So, the country potentially would be months away from building a weapon, if it chose to do so, according to the Times’ unnamed sources.

But Bachmann gives the impression that Iran is actively working toward having that weapon within months, and the IAEA said it could not say for certain whether all of Iran’s nuclear activities were peaceful. “[T]he Agency is unable to provide credible assurance about the absence of undeclared nuclear material and activities in Iran, and therefore to conclude that all nuclear material in Iran is in peaceful activities,” the report said."

What irritates me most about this, is that I used to like Bachmann when she first got into the race. But the more I hear from her on foreign policy -- and especially on Israel where her eyes glaze over and she seems disconnected from reality -- the more I have begun to think that she is actually some messianic religious looney determined to bring about Armageddon & hasten The Second Coming. If that's true, then Ahmadinejad isn't the only totally crazy we need to worry about on Iran.

55 posted on 12/16/2011 9:53:06 AM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe

RE: “The IAEA report provides no ‘smoking gun’ proof that Iran’s government intends to build a nuclear weapon, said a European diplomat.”

___________________________

In November 2011, the IAEA Board of Governors rebuked Iran following an IAEA report Iran had undertaken research and experiments geared to developing a nuclear weapons capability.

See here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/18/us-nuclear-iran-iaea-idUSTRE7AG0RP20111118


56 posted on 12/16/2011 10:11:55 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind
Here's the report, itself.

It basically says that they are concerned that Iran might be pursuing nukes, but there is NO smoking gun evidence that they do.

Bachmann's wild-eyed statements on the rest -- that "it is confirmed Iran is on the verge of having a nuke and that Ahmedinjad has said that he will use it to blow up Israel" is propagandist, fear-mongering craziness -- a craziness that Fox seems to love whipping up a heaping dose of for its corporate masters.

57 posted on 12/16/2011 10:33:39 AM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe

RE: It basically says that they are concerned that Iran might be pursuing nukes, but there is NO smoking gun evidence that they do.

Let’s say that there is no smoking gun evidence, what should a responsible President do?

A) Leave them alone and assume that they are not enriching weapons grade uranium. In other words, give the Ayatollah’s the benefit of the doubt and BELIEVE whatever they say...

B) Prepare and Monitor IN CASE the smoking gun appears.

C) Wait until the evidence is ABSOLUTELY CLEAR that they have nuclear weapons before taking action.

As for Ahamdinejad threatening Israel, c’mon, you know that he has done that PUBLICLY on many occasions.

Here is just a sample result from google (Over ONE MILLION RESULTS):

http://www.google.com/#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&source=hp&q=ahmadinejad+threatens+israel+with+destruction&pbx=1&oq=ahmadinejad+threatens+is&aq=2v&aqi=g1g-v3&aql=&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=0l0l2l280l0l0l0l0l0l0l0l0ll0l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=cb5f4aec6a892e36&biw=1238&bih=749


58 posted on 12/16/2011 10:45:10 AM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: SeekAndFind; All
GOP candidates blast Ron Paul over Iran policy. Is one side crazy?

Bachmann: Where Paul had talked about the danger of overreacting on Iran, she said it "would be that the greatest underreaction in world history if we have an avowed madman who uses that nuclear weapon to wipe nations off the face of the Earth and we have an IAEA [International Atomic Energy Agency] report that recently came out that said literally, Iran is within just months from being able to obtain that weapon."

Paul: He responded, saying the IAEA report did not contain hard evidence of an imminent nuclear weapon. Paul was booed, while later a CNN "truth squad" said Paul was factually correct on this point.

59 posted on 12/16/2011 10:51:01 AM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe
Paul: He responded, saying the IAEA report did not contain hard evidence of an imminent nuclear weapon.

He's right, we should wait for the mushroom cloud over Israel or NY City.

Then what?

60 posted on 12/16/2011 10:58:41 AM PST by Las Vegas Ron (Rush Limbaugh = the Beethoven of talk radio)
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To: stillafreemind
I just don’t think he wants to be all over the world in hassles that amount to U.S. money being spent, our soldiers blood being spilled and yet it’s not a war.

I don’t have any doubt that Paul would go to war. But that’s the key..I think he will demand that troops be sent with a fully declared war.

OK, then. Problem is....if we don't have bases around the world and our military is contained within our borders, what are the conditions of a constitutionally declared war?

Seems to me we, Israel, or another ally have to suffer a domestic catastrophe.....possibly nuclear, first.

That's an unacceptable price for being "right" constitutionally. That's especially true when you're dealing with a fanatical death cult regime whose goal is hastening the return of a non-existent well-dweller by setting the world on fire.

61 posted on 12/16/2011 11:05:27 AM PST by edpc (Wilby 2012)
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To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

Thanks SeekAndFind.
Paul is reduced to sputtering a non-sequitur about how wrong it is to declare war on 1.2 billion Muslims, which isn't at all what Bachmann said, and more or less becomes unable to complete most of his own sentences, the majority of which are also non-sequiturs. No matter what one thinks of Bachmann, you can't deny her ability to get under the skin of other candidates...
So, the drive-by media will be jumping on Ron Paul's gaffe the same way it jumped on Rick Perry's much smaller gaffe, in 3, 2, 1...


62 posted on 12/16/2011 11:09:04 AM PST by SunkenCiv (Merry Christmas, Happy New Year! May 2013 be even Happier!)
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To: SeekAndFind
Let’s say that there is no smoking gun evidence, what should a responsible President do?

I think that this is very different question (and a valid one) from the one that was framed at the debate -- and very different from Bachmann's falsely contextualized one.

Does Iran love Israel? Of course not. If Iran could wipe out Israel and get away with it, would she? Of course. But that's a mighty big "if".

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Iran's leadership are like a bunch of crazy dogs -- and you don't corner and taunt & abuse crazy dogs unless you want to get bit. You either back off, or you take them out. And if you take them out, what are the costs of that -- real and immediate, and in terms of blowback? You analyze the situation, you don't aggravate it the way we have been deliberately aggravating it.

Any presidential -- and Congressional consideration -- of what to do about Iran in such a case requires a thorough assessment of the neighborhood. Iran is not standalone -- it has relationships. What would China or Russia do if we took out Iran? What would happen in Iraq? Heck, what what would happen here in the US in terms of local terror with the half million Iranians living here in the US? This "let's take out Iran" fervor is IMHO dangerous and naive. This isn't a video game where we just get to shoot them in a barrel.

So to ultimately answer your question, if I were president I'd want as much real intelligence on the situation as possible -- and I'd want to hear from Israel as to what they think - -Israel as a friend, not as our lapdog using them to justify whatever we want to do. I'd try different options, because as Paul pointed out -- we have 12,000 people in the State Department -- what good are they if we immediately go to force instead of making them do their job?

I'm not weak-kneed on this and I don't think that Ron Paul is. Hell, my old big boss was Al Haig -- a brilliant negotiator at a time when that was actually respected -- but as Supreme Commander of NATO, certainly no opponent to using force when absolutely necessary.

A good and responsible president would be circumspect, make his decision, recommendations and get Congress and the whole country behind him to do what we needed to do -- before, and not after the fact. If this is going to be a war with Iran, then it must be our war, not just some dictator in the White House's war that we get the bill for in blood, treasure and loss of our rights.

63 posted on 12/16/2011 11:23:23 AM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Las Vegas Ron
He's right, we should wait for the mushroom cloud over Israel or NY City. Then what?

No, we should scorch the entire earth -- every single country on the planet -- with nukes -- to "protect the US" from another attack. Or maybe just leave a couple of countries who will kiss our ring and obey our leaders/s

Is that what you really want? Get real!

I just wish that some people here would grow up. We are all going to die of something one day -- ALL OF US -- cancer, old age, heart attack... But to hear it here, our deaths will likely be due to "terror attack" and we should be terrified that rat's behind little "Iran is going to be the one to pull the trigger". Eyeroll.

We are all going to die of something -- and it isn't likely to be of a terror attack. IMHO we should quit being wimps about all the hypothetical potential terror scenarios in which we might die as Americans and start worrying more about how we should live as LIVE AS AMERICANS -- and as people of God.

I am much more worried about what my Creator Thinks of me and my actions than I am of what my government thinks, what Freepers think or what anyone else thinks. I've said this before and I'll say it again -- I love America, it's my home and my country and I have no allegiance to any other -- but I am a Christian before I am an American, and that is what guides my life and my attitudes. I still believe "Blessed are the Peacemakers" and that war, although sometimes necessary, should never be accepted as a continual way of life. Continual war is the enemy of freedom -- and without freedom, how is this country different or "exceptional" from any other?

I worry that in the name of "protecting the US", that we may be destroying everything that is unique, special and beautiful about it. In the name of "preserving freedom" we may be destroying it.

Given that we have a Congress who just signed away our rights as citizens yesterday via NDAA -- on Bill of Rights Day, no less -- I don't believe that these real fears are without merit.

64 posted on 12/16/2011 12:08:53 PM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: cripplecreek
You are missing the point, that is what Paul wants and says that the Constitution was intended to do, make the President virtually irrelevant.

The Depression and the Cold War have been used as excuses to increase the power of the presidency beyond the role that it is given in the Consitution.

65 posted on 12/16/2011 12:16:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Burke)
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To: rokkitapps
Agreed!

Every aspect of Gov't spending needs to be cut.

Much of our Defense spending is used to defend other nations that can defend themselves.

66 posted on 12/16/2011 12:18:00 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Burke)
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To: Eagle of Liberty
Your argument for Defense spending that it created technology is the one often used by Big Gov't spenders for Gov't intrusion in the free market.

Defense exists for one purpose-Defense.

We should only be spending what we need to defend US interests, and that would mean a drastic reduction.

67 posted on 12/16/2011 12:21:51 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Burke)
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To: All
Video from 2005, but still valid for what the eventualities could well be: UN Inspector Scott Ritter: Fools would Bomb Iran
68 posted on 12/16/2011 12:21:51 PM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: SeekAndFind
It sounds like you are making the case FOR Ron Paul.

As for israel, the only thing I have heard Ron Paul say negative about Israel was that they should not be getting foreign aid, which is true of all nations.

69 posted on 12/16/2011 12:25:50 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Burke)
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To: Bokababe

I have to agree with you 110%. I can’t say it any better, so I won’t add anything.


70 posted on 12/16/2011 12:29:05 PM PST by rokkitapps ( Hearings on healthcare waivers NOW! (If you agree make this your tagline))
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To: Darksheare
Yes, you are correct, Islam is our enemy, but the argument is how best to defeat them.

Stop propping them up, like we did the Soviet Union, which survived 25 years longer then it should have because we kept it going.

Let the Muslim alone and he will be too busy fighting among themselves to bother us or Israel.

We keep trying to bring democracy to them and that is what is uniting them against us.

71 posted on 12/16/2011 12:29:26 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Burke)
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To: Darksheare

Happy to!


72 posted on 12/16/2011 12:37:17 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (I want a hippopotamus for Christmas! Only a hippopotamus will do!)
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To: fortheDeclaration

It didn’t help us that Jimmah Carter helped topple the Shah of Iran.


73 posted on 12/16/2011 12:40:53 PM PST by Darksheare (You will never defeat Bok Choy!)
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To: Bokababe

RE: Any presidential — and Congressional consideration — of what to do about Iran in such a case requires a thorough assessment of the neighborhood..... if I were president I’d want as much real intelligence on the situation as possible — and I’d want to hear from Israel as to what they think

__________________________________

First of all, I do not think that ANYONE of these candidates are advocating all out war with Iran. NOT AT THIS TIME. Not anyone of them.

The debate has always been about this -— WHAT INTELLIGENCE DATA DO WE CONSIDER ACTIONABLE?

I don’t believe that Bachmann believes that the current IAEA concern is cause enough to bomb Iran.

Let’s say that our intelligence data tells us that Iran is INDEED close to building a nuclear bomb that can reach Israel and Europe, WHAT DO WE DO? What ACTION DO WE TAKE?

Will a President Ron Paul stand still and say -— this isn’t our business because if Iran wants to go to war with Israel, it’s Israel’s problem, not ours? They have the capability to fight back, so leave them alone.

We can’t spend money and lives on this foreign war that does not concern us, not when our debt is nearing $20 trillion.

Ron Paul seems to be giving me the impression that that’s EXACTLY what he would do. At least he’s not giving me the confidence, not based on his rhetoric and body language that he won’t react that way.


74 posted on 12/16/2011 12:48:06 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: fortheDeclaration
Gov't intrusion in the free market

So...........um, who should build our battleships then? The Public Sector or the Private Sector? Who should build our airplanes? The Public Sector or the Private Sector? The Defense Department is probably the one department that leans on the private sector the most for its product. Should this be stopped? What should our Defense budget be?
75 posted on 12/16/2011 12:57:58 PM PST by Eagle of Liberty (Shaking My Head on a daily basis)
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To: Bokababe
No, we should scorch the entire earth -- every single country on the planet -- with nukes --

What an asinine response, you know damn well that is not what I implied.

Iran is a Country that is on record saying they want to wipe Israel off the Map as well as the great satan (the US) and if you think their kidding then you are delusional to think they won't try it. Their quest is to ignite a blood bath to usher in their "Armageddon", you really should study up.

The rest of your post is equally absurd so I'm not even going to bother but you might want to enlighten the 3k dead on 9-11 that they won't be dying from a terror attack.

76 posted on 12/16/2011 1:09:00 PM PST by Las Vegas Ron (Rush Limbaugh = the Beethoven of talk radio)
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To: ken5050

I’d almost say that Paul is a carpetbagger for the worldwide caliphate.


77 posted on 12/16/2011 1:29:54 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: Las Vegas Ron
I grew up during the Cold War, learning to hide under my desk from the time I was in kindergarten. Nukes that could destroy the world over many times -- films about nuclear radiation, life in bomb shelters after nuclear winter and nuclear created monsters were the staple of my youth. I'm old now, I don't scare that easy anymore.

3000/300,000,000. Chances are far better I'll go of old age and so will you -- unless we get some whacko yahoo in the White House who pulls the trigger to soon.

Life--and foreign policy --is and has always been a risk. All I can say is that I have far less confidence in continuing the foreign policy mindset that has gotten to 9/11 and to where we are now, than I do in one that changes course in another direction -- a direction that sooner or later we are going to have no choice about changing because we will be too broke to continue. So do we make that choice when we actually have some dignity and strength about making a choice? Or do we wait until we have no choice, we are weak and our enemies know our every vulnerability? I choose the former.

78 posted on 12/16/2011 1:30:12 PM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: SeekAndFind

If the GOP ran a cardboard box as President, that’s what I’m voting for. Anything but that treasonous, Marxist hack we have now. If Paul is on the ballot, so be it.


79 posted on 12/16/2011 1:32:28 PM PST by WKUHilltopper (And yet...we continue to tolerate this crap...)
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To: mas cerveza por favor
I think Bachman was just brilliant in this interview. She has real convictions and shows them with passion. She said Iran is going to TRY. Obviously Iran cannot take over America. But it can do major damage to our psyche through Hezbullah.
80 posted on 12/16/2011 1:34:24 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: Bokababe; Las Vegas Ron

Twelver Shiites believe they can force the Twelfth Mahdi to appear by igniting chaos and destruction.
Amadinnerjacket is a Twelver, as are most of the ruling clerics in Iran.
They believe the Twelfth Mahdi is in “occlusion” and has been for several centuries.
They believe he will show up to usher in the “peace of islam”.. i.e. Shariah for all, slaughter for ‘infidels’ and destruction of the ‘enemies of islam’.
These are not rational people we are dealing with.
They honestly believe that by killing large numbers of people they can make their ‘messiah’ appear.

Look up twelver shi’a.
It’s a real trip.


81 posted on 12/16/2011 1:49:32 PM PST by Darksheare (You will never defeat Bok Choy!)
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To: Sam Gamgee
I think Bachman was just brilliant in this interview. She has real convictions and shows them with passion. She said Iran is going to TRY.

I just listened again. Bachman stated "We know without a shadow of a doubt that Iran will take a nuclear weapon. They will use it to wipe our ally Israel of the face of the map and they've stated they will use it against the United States of America."

82 posted on 12/16/2011 1:54:22 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Bokababe
I grew up during the Cold War, learning to hide under my desk from the time I was in kindergarten.

So did I my FRiend, I also remember the air raid siren tests on the last Friday of every month at 10:00 AM

The difference then is we were facing an enemy who wanted to win, to live and had much to lose. Iran want to martyr its self to bring about the 12th Imam, or Mahdi.

Yes, the odds of dying in a terror attack for you and me are pretty high, but what American City and how many American lives are you willing to risk too test your theory? What about an EMP attack launched from a ship off the Atlantic?

What we are facing with Iran and islam in general is in no way comparable to the cold war, two totally different enemies.

What we should be doing and missed a tremendous opportunity to do so was/is aid the Iranian (Persian) people in toppling their mad mullah regime, otherwise all out, maybe nuclear war will be a certainty.

Or do we wait until we have no choice, we are weak and our enemies know our every vulnerability? I choose the former.

If Iran gets a nuke, that is exactly where we'll be, we will have no choices.

>

This is interesting, in case you missed it:

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/dec/14/us-will-leave-iraqi-airspace-clear-for-strategic-i/

83 posted on 12/16/2011 1:58:41 PM PST by Las Vegas Ron (Rush Limbaugh = the Beethoven of talk radio)
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To: SeekAndFind
First of all, I do not think that ANYONE of these candidates are advocating all out war with Iran. NOT AT THIS TIME. Not anyone of them.

I think that Bachmann falsely made the Iranian nuclear threat to Israel and the US seem absolutely confirmed, real and immediate. So if one believes that how do they not act?

Will a President Ron Paul stand still and say -— this isn’t our business because if Iran wants to go to war with Israel, it’s Israel’s problem, not ours? They have the capability to fight back, so leave them alone. We can’t spend money and lives on this foreign war that does not concern us, not when our debt is nearing $20 trillion. Ron Paul seems to be giving me the impression that that’s EXACTLY what he would do. At least he’s not giving me the confidence, not based on his rhetoric and body language that he won’t react that way.

And that is your impression and I respect that even if I don't agree with it.

IMHO, it's because Ron Paul is a physician. He's dealt with life and death every day of his career -- learning how to cure a problem without killing the patient -- he's a thinker. It's all been life & death to him, which is why he doesn't rile or physically posture when dealing with things like that in ways that I see others do. It's not about ego posturing or aggression. But in all honesty, if God forbid all hell broke loose in some hypothetical scenario in that auditorium last night and no one knew what was happening or what to do, I'd put my bets on following that old man to safety rather than any of the others. He's the one who'd keep his cool and risk his butt if necessary.

The one who scares me on this issue with his body language and attitude is Newt. He reminds me of someone I'm related to -- a smart-ass, self-important sneering little dictator who'd fold when the heat is on -- who thinks he's smarter than everyone else on every subject, but he's not, he's an empty windbag. I've known guys like him -- in life and in business and the only thing frightens me about them is how easily they fool people with their supposed "intelligence" that is supposed to take the place of having any real core values whatever other than self-preservation.

But again, those are all impressions -- yours and mine. Different, but while you can argue facts, you can't argue with people's feelings about things.

84 posted on 12/16/2011 2:04:19 PM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Las Vegas Ron; All

I promise that I will read it but not right now. Today is my birthday, so I am going to take some time off of politics for now to go enjoy myself. Later!


85 posted on 12/16/2011 2:09:34 PM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe

Happy Birth Day FRiend!

Wadda ya doin here, go enjoy your day!


86 posted on 12/16/2011 2:17:18 PM PST by Las Vegas Ron (Rush Limbaugh = the Beethoven of talk radio)
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To: mas cerveza por favor

Point is?


87 posted on 12/16/2011 2:34:31 PM PST by Sam Gamgee (May God have mercy upon my enemies, because I won't. - Patton)
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To: Sam Gamgee

Correcting your response.


88 posted on 12/16/2011 3:06:43 PM PST by mas cerveza por favor
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To: Bokababe

Before you make Ron Paul the guy you would want to follow and call Bachmann the only liar in this exchange, you ought to ALSO consider the false accusation that Ron Paul made last night when he said that someone in the panel is declaring WAR on 1.2 Billion Muslims and saying all Muslims are the same ( as he did in the debate ).

NO ONE IS SAYING THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE THE SAME OR THAT WE WILL GO TO WAR WITH ALL 1.2 MILLION MUSLIMS. NOT BACHMANN, NOT SANTORUM and NOT GINGRICH.

To say that we have to stand up to Iran DOES NOT MEAN we want to make war on ALL 1.2 Billion Muslims. Ron Paul is striking at a straw man here.

So clearly, Ron Paul is NOT being truthful.

The difference in opinion lies in whether Iran’s leader DID threaten to wipe Israel off the map.

You might believe Iran’s leaders harbor not such ambitions, but others do ( and they have their reasons to do so ).

So, I will grant that Bachmann has her facts wrong, but hey, Ron Paul isn’t immune from exagerrated accusations as well.

BTW, how is Ron Paul so sure that Iran is not imminently at the point of obtaining nukes? The fact is Ron Paul’s assertion that “they have no evidence” may ALSO be wrong.

Otherwise, why would the The IAEA expressed concerns in their recent report about the “military dimensions” of Iran’s nuclear program? ( if there is no evidence ( as in ZERO), why would the IAEA express concern about military dimensions?)

What if Iran is HIDING their evidence?

In fact, the IAEA flagged a number of DUAL USE technologies under development by the Iranians that could have military applications.

All we can say for now is we don’t have hard evidence.

That does not mean that we should not prepare for such a possibility.

RE: And that is your impression and I respect that even if I don’t agree with it.

Well if you don’t agree with it, there is one way for you to bring me to your side .... I need you to tell me and show where in Ron Paul’s previous statements he said that IF ( emphasis ) Iran were to threaten Israel and go to war with her, he would help Israel militarily....

Go on, just give me that money quote.

Why do I doubt Ron paul on this? I’ll tell you why...

Previously, Ron Paul said that with the countries around Iran, like China, Israel, India having nuclear weapons, why wouldn’t Iran want a weapon, as they’d be given more respect internationally?

This says a lot -— He seems unconcerned that the Ayatollahs in Iran who have a theology of ushering the last days, will have nukes. He seems to think that they will be as rational as the Indians or Chinese.

BTW, I DO realize that Ahmadinejad did insist that Iran is not pursuing nuclear weapons. He did insist that their nuclear research is for peaceful activities.

I AM AWARE OF THAT.

The question is this -— Do we believe him? My answer is NO.

Ron Paul seems to say YES.

And this is where we part ways.

In fact, In a Sioux City Republican debate, Asked what he would do if given proof that Iran had obtained a nuclear bomb, Paul kept to his isolationist ground that he wouldn’t engage in another war in the Middle East.

In other words, my suspicion that Ron Paul would leave Israel alone to fend for herself HAS GOOD SUPPORT based on his statements.

Now, if you personally don’t think the USA has any obligation to help Israel against her enemies, why don’t you just say so?

At least everyone in this thread will know that this is where you stand. But please... you have ways to go to convince me that my impression about Ron Paul believing that Israel is not our business, is wrong headed.


89 posted on 12/16/2011 3:40:01 PM PST by SeekAndFind
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To: rokkitapps
All I heard in Ron Paul’s response was that he wanted to adhere to the constitution. Not going to war without a constitutional declaration.
I agree. Iran has been attacking us for decades. We should declare war. Then again, Look up the Barbary Wars under Jefferson

When did it get to be “conservative” to waste billions blowing up things in the middle east, only to spend billions building roads and schools over there, when the roads are crumbling over here. We are out of money.
I'm sure it'll be much cheaper when Iran makes good on the whole destroy the Great Satan and "Death to America" thing.

If we want security, pull troops out of Iraq and put them on the border with Mexico. The people invading from the south believe they own the land. Get the heck out of the middle east and every where else and take care of what is happening at home.
Ron Paul believe in open borders. There is a reason why NumbersUSA gives him a failing grade. And there is no reason why we can't take out Iran's nuclear program, seal our borders, and deport illegals as Michele Bachmann wants.

90 posted on 12/16/2011 4:47:52 PM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: SeekAndFind

What were we doing to Muslims when the Barbary States declared war on the US in the 18th Century?


91 posted on 12/16/2011 4:49:33 PM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: SeekAndFind

Paul needs his eyes checked because Iran hates the Great Satan. Selling out Israel may buy us a generation, but Iran will always find a reason to attack. REfusing to allow Muslims to come to the US, or simply refusing to pay the jizya and convert are also justifications.


92 posted on 12/16/2011 4:51:54 PM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Bokababe
Since Iran refuses to allow inspectors access, a smoking gun will be a mushroom cloud when they test a nuke.
That they are refining uranium past 20% and building ICBMs is proof for all but those who are intentional blind.
93 posted on 12/16/2011 4:57:26 PM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Bokababe
Does that video come with young girls and a happy meal?

Ritter was a compromised pedophile.

94 posted on 12/16/2011 4:59:29 PM PST by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: Eagle of Liberty

Your comment is nonsense, the Gov’t is responsible for Defense spending, but that doesn’t mean it gets a blank check!


95 posted on 12/16/2011 8:55:09 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Burke)
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To: Las Vegas Ron; SeekAndFind
Thanks for the Birthday wishes! Had a great evening.

Interesting article. Maybe Israel will use this one year opportunity to deal with Iran -- and I have no problem with that. I'd say, "Go Israel! You think that Iran's nuke potential is a threat to you, you have every right to do what you think is necessary to preserve and protect your sovereign country!"

What I'd have a problem with is us doing it or directing/using Israel to do it. Because, I think that we (the US policy wonks) are using Israel for everything and anything we want to do in the ME, and we are leaving Israel holding the bag for our policies.

If I were Netanyahu after that debacle with Obama some months back, I'd have left the White House giving Obama & the US the three fingered salute. Israel doesn't need us -- we need Israel to "morally" justify our ME presence. And I believe that we are actually doing Israel more harm than good.

96 posted on 12/17/2011 11:38:55 AM PST by Bokababe (Save Christian Kosovo! http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: fortheDeclaration
Your comment is nonsense, the Gov’t is responsible for Defense spending, but that doesn’t mean it gets a blank check!

HA! HA! Great non-answer. I give you actual questions to answer as you see fit with an actual budget target and you tell me my post is nonsense? I didn't ask who is responsible for the spending. I asked whether the private or public sector would build the stuff better.
97 posted on 12/19/2011 6:22:27 AM PST by Eagle of Liberty (Shaking My Head on a daily basis)
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To: Eagle of Liberty
No, what you gave me was a nonsense reply.

Just because the Gov't is responsible for Defense spending doesn't mean they can spend whatever they want.

Defense spending is necessary but it is still government spending and hence a drain in the economy.

No one is talking about the private vs public sectors, so stop raising a red herring.

98 posted on 12/19/2011 1:01:41 PM PST by fortheDeclaration (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Burke)
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To: fortheDeclaration

Define exactly what you mean by Government intrusion in the free market through Defense spending.


99 posted on 12/20/2011 5:39:01 AM PST by Eagle of Liberty (Shaking My Head on a daily basis)
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To: Eagle of Liberty

Never said that-you can’t read.


100 posted on 12/20/2011 9:19:54 AM PST by fortheDeclaration (All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Burke)
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