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Liquidation Of Customer Stored Gold And Silver Bullion From MF Global
TMO ^ | 12-17-2011 | Jesse

Posted on 12/17/2011 8:38:03 PM PST by blam

Liquidation Of Customer Stored Gold And Silver Bullion From MF Global

Commodities / Gold and Silver 2011
Dec 17, 2011 - 12:27 PM
By: Jesse

The bottom line is that apparently some warehouses and bullion dealers are not a safe place to store your gold and silver, even if you hold a specific warehouse receipt. In an oligarchy, private ownership is merely a concept, subject to interpretation and confiscation.

Although the details and the individual perpetrators are yet to be disclosed, what is now painfully clear is that the CFTC and CME regulated futures system is defaulting on its obligations. This did not even happen in the big failures like Lehman and Bear Sterns in which the customer accounts were kept whole and transferred before the liquidation process.

Obviously holding unallocated gold and silver in a fractional reserve scheme is subject to much more counterparty risk than many might have previously admitted. If a major bullion bank were to declare bankruptcy or a major exchange a default, how would it affect you? Do you think your property claims would be protected based on what you have seen this year?

You always have counter-party risk if you hold gold and silver through another party, even if they are a Primary Dealer of the Federal Reserve. As Ben said, the Fed offers no seal of approval.

If a Bankruptcy Trustee can pool your bullion into the rest of the paper assets and then liquidate it at prices that are being front run by the Street, you will have to accept whatever paper settlement that they give you.

The customer money and bullion assets are not lost, or rehypothecated or anything else. This is a pseudo-legal fig leaf, a convenient rationalization.

The customer assets were stolen, and given to at least one major financial institution by MF Global to satisfy an 11th hour margin call in the week of their bankruptcy, even as MF Global was paying bonuses to its London employees. And now that powerful financial institution does not want to give the customer money back. And they are so powerful that the Trustee and the Court is reluctant to try and claw it back. And so in the great Wall Street tradition they are trying to force the customers and the public to take the loss. The regulators and the exchange are aghast, and are trying to imagine how to resolve and spin this to preserve investor confidence and prevent a run on the system.

'Let them eat warehouse receipts.'

For many this would have been unthinkable only a few months ago. They had been cautioned and warned repeatedly, but chose to trust the financial system. And now they are suffering loss and anxiety, frozen assets, and the misappropriation of their wealth.

How more plainly can it be said? The US financial system as it now stands cannot be trusted to observe even the most basic property rights as it continues to unravel from a long standing culture of fraud.

Get your money as far away from Wall Street as is possible. And if you want to own gold and silver, take delivery and store it in a secure private facility outside the fractional reserve system.

Barrons
The Silver Rush at MF Global
By ERIN E. ARVEDLUND
December 17, 2011

It's one thing for $1.2 billion to vanish into thin air through a series of complex trades, the well-publicized phenomenon at bankrupt MF Global. It's something else for a bar of silver stashed in a vault to instantly shrink in size by more than 25%.

That, in essence, is what's happening to investors whose bars of silver and gold were held through accounts with MF Global.

The trustee overseeing the liquidation of the failed brokerage has proposed dumping all remaining customer assets—gold, silver, cash, options, futures and commodities—into a single pool that would pay customers only 72% of the value of their holdings. In other words, while traders already may have paid the full price for delivery of specific bars of gold or silver—and hold "warehouse receipts" to prove it—they'll have to forfeit 28% of the value.

That has investors fuming. "Warehouse receipts, like gold bars, are our property, 100%," contends John Roe, a partner in BTR Trading, a Chicago futures-trading firm. He personally lost several hundred thousand dollars in investments via MF Global; his clients lost even more. "We are a unique class, and instead, the trustee is doing a radical redistribution of property," he says.

Roe and others point out that, unlike other MF Global customers, who held paper assets, those with warehouse receipts have claims on assets that still exist and can be readily identified.

The tussle has been obscured by former CEO Jon Corzine's appearances on Capitol Hill. But it's a burning issue for the Commodity Customer Coalition, a group that says it represents some 8,000 investors—many of them hedge funds—with exposure to MF Global. "I've issued a declaration of war," says James Koutoulas, lead attorney for the group, and CEO of Typhon Capital Management.

At stake is an unspecified, but apparently large, volume of gold and silver bars slated for delivery to traders through accounts at MF Global, which filed for bankruptcy on Oct. 31. Adding insult to the injury: Of the 28% haircut, attorney and liquidation trustee James Giddens has frozen all asset classes, meaning that traders have sat helplessly as silver prices have dropped 31% since late August, and gold has fallen 16%. To boot, the traders are still being assessed fees for storage of the commodities...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: bullion; commodities; corruption; corzine; gold; joncorzine; mfglobal; silver; theft
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first previous 1-5051-98 last
To: blam

Isn’t this the same kind of risk as if you held corn futures and there was a severe drought making it impossible for everybody to get all the corn that was “futured”?

Gold dealers can go bankrupt too.


51 posted on 12/18/2011 12:53:41 AM PST by HiTech RedNeck (Sometimes progressives find their scripture in the penumbra of sacred bathroom stall writings (Tzar))
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To: HiTech RedNeck

“Gold dealers can go bankrupt too.”

Buy more food and other necessities.


52 posted on 12/18/2011 1:29:51 AM PST by Sun (Pray that God sends us good leaders. Please say a prayer now.)
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To: Sun

I guess it is just a coincidence that most of these financial clowns are stong proponents of gun control.


53 posted on 12/18/2011 3:54:35 AM PST by Mouton (Voting is an opiate of the electorate. Nothing changes no matter who wins..)
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To: 21twelve

They did raid them during the 1930s. Several things you are not supposed to store in safety deposit boxes if you read the fine print when you opened the box. Also keep in mind if a bank holiday is declared you will not have access to the box either.


54 posted on 12/18/2011 4:01:52 AM PST by EBH (God Humbles Nations, Leaders, and Peoples before He uses them for His Purpose)
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To: 21twelve
Based on this information from early this year....very good.

U.S DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY HAS TOLD BANKS – IN WRITING – IT MAY INSPECT SAFE DEPOSIT BOXES WITHOUT WARRANT AND SEIZE ANY GOLD, SILVER, GUNS OR OTHER VALUABLES IT FINDS INSIDE THOSE BOXES!

55 posted on 12/18/2011 4:10:38 AM PST by EBH (God Humbles Nations, Leaders, and Peoples before He uses them for His Purpose)
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To: Mouton

“Our anscestors would have been shooting by now”


56 posted on 12/18/2011 4:50:52 AM PST by ronnie raygun (V)
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To: CutePuppy; Liz
FYI..hadn't seen this before..a new take...

welcome your comments..

57 posted on 12/18/2011 5:06:02 AM PST by ken5050 (Support Admin Mods: Doing the tough, hard, dirty jobs that Americans won't do...)
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To: blam

‘Let them eat warehouse receipts.’

For many this would have been unthinkable only a few months ago. They had been cautioned and warned repeatedly, but chose to trust the financial system. And now they are suffering loss and anxiety, frozen assets, and the misappropriation of their wealth.


I am sitting here shaking my head sadly also I am so grateful that I had no personal dealings with this company.

I’ve said it before here on Free Republic: If you can’t reach out and put your fingers on it, you don’t really control it. That goes for Gold, Silver or anything else.

I learned that lesson real well in the military, oh the stories I could tell about my units ‘assigned assets’ that disappeared just as we needed them because they weren’t under our direct control.


58 posted on 12/18/2011 5:15:52 AM PST by The Working Man (The mantra for BO's reign...."No Child Left a Dime")
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To: blam

>>what is now painfully clear is that the CFTC and CME regulated futures system is defaulting on its obligations.

There is an Ann Barnhardt rant on exactly this theme from a week or more ago. She goes into significant detail on the whole issue, and is quite irate about the whole thing. Watching this happen is what made her shut down her business, as she was unwilling to tell customers to put money into a system with no integrity.

Here, I found it:
Market Has Been Destroyed by the MF Global Collapse (podcast interview w/ Ann Barnhardt)
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2815367/posts

And there is now:
Transcript for Ann Barnhardt Interview
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2818867/posts


59 posted on 12/18/2011 5:21:31 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: The Working Man
Jives with the Ann Barnhardt rant I posted above. You can read the transcript, but reading it won't do it justice. You really should listen to it, as she is just incensed by the whole betrayal of trust and it very much comes through in the audio.

On the theme of your comment, we have this from that interview:

"But, yeah, to all the people out there listening—you are going to have to get away from paper and get back into physical commodities, the real deal. Anything that is on paper anything that involves a promise or a commitment is no longer valid because as we said there isn’t a rule of law anymore. People can steal from you. Your money can be confiscated. And think how easy now it is to confiscate people’s wealth. Most of our wealth in this society exists as zeroes and ones on a computer server. It takes no effort whatsoever to steal zeros and ones on a computer server. So what I have been telling people is you need to get into physical commodities. And the rule of thumb is if you can stand in front of it with an assault rifle and physically protect it, then it's real—it's a real commodity."
Emphasis added.
60 posted on 12/18/2011 5:28:36 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: 21twelve
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4832471&page=1

Then of course there is the 1933 “precedent” of raiding US investor safe deposit boxes of their gold, established by one of Barky’s favorite presidents

61 posted on 12/18/2011 5:35:44 AM PST by silverleaf (common sense is not so common- voltaire)
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To: SatinDoll; Track9

I linked in Ann’s interview/rant in #59. I assume you’ve listened to it? She was MAD!


62 posted on 12/18/2011 5:41:07 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: ronnie raygun

Did they shoot in the 1930s when this happened under FDR?
Our histories have been revised, so I really don’t know.

FWIW, I believe all gold and silver should be *industrial* quality, such as bullion. Find a small-time metal smith and have it all turned into link chains. You can trade off a link at a time and it will remain *jewelry*. If you think even personal jewelry will be confiscated, talk to your smith about plating the PM with something base. The problem with that, is you will need to have it melted down and refined in order to use it and there is loss every time the form of metal is changed.

I think the thing no one wants to accept is that anything at all can be made illegal to own or trade. It doesn’t take confiscation or even even a law. It can just take manipulation of the markets to crash the value. If, instead of PMs, someone is hoarding cash, that cash can be devalued through the markets, too.

Think about all the hoards of gold and silver and even brass *currency* that is constantly being found buried in Britain and Europe. Think about Confederate dollars and bonds. Historically, this has all happened over and over again in the past.


63 posted on 12/18/2011 5:53:45 AM PST by reformedliberal
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To: Lurker
“If you can’t pick it up and run with it, you don’t really own it.”

And if you can only run as far as the border with it, then what?

ML/NJ

64 posted on 12/18/2011 6:32:41 AM PST by ml/nj
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To: blam
Fractional reserve management of unallocated gold accounts

Some good info on the subject here.


65 posted on 12/18/2011 7:00:54 AM PST by ex91B10 (We've tried the Soap Box,the Ballot Box and the Jury Box; one box left.)
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To: SatinDoll
"I’m particularly fond of the small gold coins minted by the Isle of Mann, the ones with the different cat breeds on them.

The Bee Gees are from the Isle Of Man, you may like this.(Ellan Vannin)

66 posted on 12/18/2011 7:21:50 AM PST by blam
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To: reformedliberal
"FWIW, I believe all gold and silver should be *industrial* quality, such as bullion. Find a small-time metal smith and have it all turned into link chains. You can trade off a link at a time and it will remain *jewelry*."

Buying legal currency, Kugerrands, Pandas and American Eagles, could accomplish the same, eh?

I found a roll of 1/10th oz Chinese Pandas in the curb at the Dallas/Ft Worth airport in the late 80's. They looked sorta like a roll of Life Savers, one was missing.

67 posted on 12/18/2011 7:37:28 AM PST by blam
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To: Sun
"Buy more food and other necessities. "

Good advice IMO.

Financial Panic Sweeps Europe As The Head Of The IMF Warns Of A “1930s Depression”

68 posted on 12/18/2011 7:45:29 AM PST by blam
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To: Lurker
“Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also."

-- Matthew 6:19-21


69 posted on 12/18/2011 7:52:25 AM PST by EternalVigilance (With God Obama can't hurt us. Without God, George Washington couldn't save us.)
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To: EternalVigilance

For the record, gold does not corrode and moths can’t eat it.


70 posted on 12/18/2011 7:58:27 AM PST by bert (K.E. N.P. +12 ..... Crucifixion is coming)
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To: djf; Noumenon; SatinDoll

As sad as it sounds, Corzine conspiring with the COMEX and CME to save their collective butts isn’t as bad as a far more ranging conspiracy to inject a virus of mistrust into the whole market structure. Then again, there is no rule that says the high level liberal Corzine couldn’t be playing both sides, using the COMEX/CME as the wrench for a bigger dismantling and killing two birds with one stone. Wouldn’t be the first time.

What’s not being said loud enough is that we’ve had bankruptcies in clearing firms before and no investor has ever got treated like this. Unless something changed under Sarbanes-Oxley or Dodd-Frank, which is quite possible, the regulators are basically sitting on their hands aiding and abetting this. That of course points to involvement by the Zero admin to let this happen, adding credibility to the idea that they are trying to crash the markets.

The timing with Europe makes it even more suspicious. We are already weak, and this seems like a very timely move to take advantage of that weakness. Personally I think they’re setting us up the bomb.


71 posted on 12/18/2011 8:14:13 AM PST by Free Vulcan (Vote Republican! You can vote Democrat when you're dead.)
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To: bert
moths can’t eat it.

Neither can you.

72 posted on 12/18/2011 8:14:43 AM PST by EternalVigilance (With God Obama can't hurt us. Without God, George Washington couldn't save us.)
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To: blam

Buying legal currency, Kugerrands, Pandas and American Eagles, could accomplish the same, eh?


I am not certain. The government, any government, could enact any controls they like.

More and more, as I watch things unfold, it begins to make me wonder if the end game is going to be a planetary digital credit system. While people would likely acknowledge PMs as currency for a while, eventually, there would simply be ignorance and therefore avoidance. For example, right now, there are so many folks, mostly younger, who never use cash and don’t carry checks. They swipe a debit card or a credit card that awards *stuff* and which they pay off at the end of the month. In some universities and I gather, from reading, in some urban venues, people just let an RF reader log their card number or use a thumbprint.

In the 80s, we were jewelers. When gold and silver got too high for most folks, the trends shifted to reactive metals and glass or enamel. And that was $800 gold and (IIRC) $8 silver.

I see more deflation than hyper-inflation in the medium term, so that could defuse barter, at least for a time.

I also think that with a universal digital credit system, we could easily see the left’s desired Guaranteed Income become reality. A few good harvests anywhere in the world, barring commodity trade wars, and food would become affordable, leaving scant reason to prep or garden, aside from weather-related or personal preference reasons. Presently, we are already seeing energy discoveries deflating the costs and prices of fuel, so transport would be less of a factor, not accounting for environmental controls. Lots of research into alternative materials other than oil-based plastics would also keep energy prices down.

Just trying to look at things from outside the echo chamber and factoring in what the oligarchy might do to protect themselves and tighten their control short of forcing all-out revolution. I am not advocating any specific action for anyone, because we all have different world views. For ourselves, we try, as much as possible, to stay flexible just because we don’t have any real control over the larger picture.


73 posted on 12/18/2011 8:32:21 AM PST by reformedliberal
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To: Free Vulcan
Unless something changed under Sarbanes-Oxley or Dodd-Frank, which is quite possible, the regulators are basically sitting on their hands aiding and abetting this. That of course points to involvement by the Zero admin to let this happen, adding credibility to the idea that they are trying to crash the markets.

The timing with Europe makes it even more suspicious. We are already weak, and this seems like a very timely move to take advantage of that weakness. Personally I think they’re setting us up the bomb.

They should all hang. For great justice.

74 posted on 12/18/2011 8:42:12 AM PST by Noumenon ("I tell you, gentlemen, we have a problem on our hands." Col. Nicholson-The Bridge on the River Qwai)
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To: ken5050; CutePuppy

Thanks for the headsup-——collateral effect of the MF debcale.....still rolling out as we type.


75 posted on 12/18/2011 8:57:57 AM PST by Liz
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To: FreedomPoster

Excellent interview. Ann B is very good. I’m still a plebe with the lexicon.. so getting an excellent education. Thumbs up!!


76 posted on 12/18/2011 9:13:55 AM PST by Track9
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To: reformedliberal
"Just trying to look at things from outside the echo chamber and factoring in what the oligarchy might do to protect themselves and tighten their control short of forcing all-out revolution."

Thanks. I appreciate this sort of thinking.

77 posted on 12/18/2011 9:24:46 AM PST by blam
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To: Free Vulcan
" Personally I think they’re setting us up the bomb. "

Make Your Time.

78 posted on 12/18/2011 9:30:10 AM PST by blam
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To: Liz; ken5050; All
Leave to the likes of ZeroHedge, TheBuisnessInsider, TheMaketInsider, TheMarketOracle to sensationalize, blow up things out of proportion and stand the logic on its head by blaming the wrong parties (CFTC and CME) for the logical outcome of Corzine's / MF-created problem with misusing segregated customers' accounts.

TMO article, just like Ann Barnhardt's missive before, is attempting to blame "the system" (CFTC and, particularly CME, implying "systemic failure" just like Sen. Debbie Stebanow tried to do in hearings, to create more regulations and deflect the blame from Corzine, Abelow et al.) for actions that MF undertook.

As the article points out, much bigger outfits, like Lehman, Bear Stearns and Barings went bankrupt without any problems with their segregated trading customers' accounts (whether they held physical or paper assets and trading positions); same goes for smaller entities like Refco, which MFGH (then part of UK based Man Group) acquired from bankruptcy in late 2005.

FTA:

What in the world does any of this have to do with a banking "fractional reserve system"? And, BTW, so much for the supposed superiority of holding illiquid "physical" assets (gold and silver) instead of "paper" assets!

In real world, this is just about the customers' assets (physical or "paper") that are supposed to be and have always been "untouchable" accounts that were "touched" / misused by the likes of one "Master of the Universe" Jon Corzine, ostensibly to be used as a collateral for margin, for a short period of time, to enable highly leveraged MFGH to be sold to financially stronger entity. J.C. Flowers and Corzine were shopping the company and IBG had agreement "in principle" to acquire MFGH the day after the news of "money missing from customers' accounts" broke.

FTA:

Assets are assets. Where did the confused notion that a "physical" bullion asset should be in any way "safer" than the "paper" asset come from? If the "cash" or gold / silver bullion or antique furniture can be put up as collateral, then it can be "pooled with the rest of the assets" for any purpose.

The answer to the question "If a major bullion bank were to declare bankruptcy or a major exchange a default, how would it affect you?" is simple: you are screwed, unless there is account insurance (which there usually is, provided to the brokerage by companies like Aon, Society of Lloyd's/Lloyd's of London, Marsh & McLennan, Munich Re, Willis Group, etc.) and the insurance companies are solvent.

In fact, there are now proposals under consideration of making insurance fee mandatory for commodity brokerages (similar to SIPC insurance) which will be passed on to the customers and make trading / hedging more expensive - thanks, Mr. Corzine!

72% payout is guaranteed by CME and will be distributed by the trustee for now, until they know how much money they can "recover" and claw back for the customers.

It's explained here:
Corzine: MF Staff Said Fund Transfer Legal - BL, by Silla Brush and Clea Benson, 2011 December 15

Basically, it takes time to sort out the Corzine's mess, and allocate the funds appropriately.

FTA:

Actually, quite the opposite, as from the above, they are trying to find where the money is and claw back for the customers. In the hearings, everybody confirmed that customers' accounts were first in line to receive the "recovered" money. And there is no run on the "system." Thankfully, only a few are calling for it and not everybody is talking like they 99% losers of OWS.

FTA:

That's the kind of lunacy and idiocy we should expect from ZeroHedge, TheBusinessInsider, TheMarketInsider, TheMarketOracle and other pseudo-financial liberal "Wall Street conspiracy" blogs. Apparently, they have "Jim Cramer envy" (of TheStreet.com and CNBC) and try to outdo him with the scariest phony scenarios they can conjure up.

For some reasons, the richest people on the planet (whether we like them or not) like Buffett, Bill Gates, Soros, Carlos Slim et al. have most of their money "on Wall Street" and mostly in the form of liquid "paper" assets.

From the original Barron's article, that somehow didn't make it into TMO excerpt:

What did Celente expect would happen when he refused the margin call? Something different from what happens to any "other" customer? Didn't like it - could move the account to another brokerage which will allow a smaller margin collateral... if he could find it. And what difference does it make if the margin call is on "physical" gold or "paper" gold, except that it's a lot more difficult to move gold bars than do electronic "paper" transfer?

That's it in a nutshell. This is what Erin Arvedlund's article is really all about - whether the self-described Customers Coalition will file a "deep pocket" lawsuit against CME and how it's affecting and may affect in the future its price (for what it's worth, it will be a futile lawsuit, CME has no liability here; in fact CME and Duffy have been a standout). It's not about "run on the system" or "long-standing culture of fraud" that was just now discovered by customers of MFGH and other brokerages.

Speaking of CME, Duffy just got a waiver from increased Illinois business taxes.

From Quinn signs Sears-CME tax breaks into law - CT, by Kathy Bergen, 2011 December 16

Now that should drive OWS crowd batty.

79 posted on 12/18/2011 1:12:01 PM PST by CutePuppy (If you don't ask the right questions you may not get the right answers)
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To: Liz; ken5050; All
WSJ article has a good summation of all things MF Global that we already know and have discussed before here on FR, some even before they were covered by the "news" media, including complications from lawsuits, why CME and trustee had different takes on the numbers, customers' priority of disbursements, etc...:

From Corzine and the Missing Money - WSJ, by Holman W. Jenkins, Jr., 2011 December 17

At this point we can be fairly confident that authorities know where the customers' money is. Most likely they are working with JPMorgan, in the U.K. and the U.S. to track the transfers, sales, authorizations and "legitimacy".

They may not know yet exactly how much of it is available for distribution - because there is a discrepancy even within different regulators and trustee as to how much was really "missing" and how much of the transferred money was "legitimate" and how much was "bastardo". Duffy was a little skeptical, but was not going to argue with trustee during the hearing; he already limited his guarantee "liability" so the higher amount of clawback could benefit CME to "recover" its own guarantee in the end, too.

Most people will eventually get most of their money back. Some problems will be with those who had open positions that were liquidated at the then-prevailing price (to satisfy collateral requirements).

Celente, who wouldn't put more collateral for margin call - probably because he was already leveraged to the gills, and/or just decided it was the best way to exit out of losing gold position (smart, as it turns out, considering where the gold is now) and now is making noise and a virtue out of necessity. Maybe he hopes to get the "full value" of his gold position at the time of MF bankruptcy.

In contrast, other people who had open leveraged contracts that were liquidated, simply had no choice in the matter.

80 posted on 12/18/2011 4:50:21 PM PST by CutePuppy (If you don't ask the right questions you may not get the right answers)
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To: EternalVigilance

And so...
Do you have a whole lot of freeze dried shrimp in your safety deposit box?


81 posted on 12/18/2011 5:01:31 PM PST by nkycincinnatikid
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To: nkycincinnatikid

Nope.


82 posted on 12/18/2011 5:18:41 PM PST by EternalVigilance (With God Obama can't hurt us. Without God, George Washington couldn't save us.)
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To: blam
If you don't have physical possession, you have a reduced claim of ownership.

And even if you do have it, it can be taken away if the place you bought it from goes bankrupt?

Is there any private property anymore?

83 posted on 12/18/2011 6:05:39 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: Red Badger

Yes, but there is another issue.

How much physical gold was there, compared to how much paper was sold? In other words, how many times did one pound of gold get sold to different people?

I suspect that is the problem. There are more claims than there are real gold.


84 posted on 12/18/2011 6:09:37 PM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: nkycincinnatikid
They do it all the time.

You think that large financial institutions routinely steal from the safe-deposit boxes of customers? This is one of the weirder things I've read recently.
85 posted on 12/18/2011 8:58:57 PM PST by aNYCguy
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To: FreedomPoster
Most of our wealth in this society exists as zeroes and ones on a computer server... if you can stand in front of it with an assault rifle and physically protect it, then it's real—it's a real commodity."

Yeah, man. Ones and zeroes. Trippy.

It's amazing to me that there's a strong contingent in modern conservativism of anarcho-primitivists, and they're represented on FR.

Of course, the anarcho-primitivists that call themselves "anarchists" consider the anarcho-primitivists that call themselves "conservatives" their most hated enemy, and vice versa. But I am consistently fascinated by how similar the platforms of the two groups actually are.
86 posted on 12/18/2011 9:24:49 PM PST by aNYCguy
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To: aNYCguy

So you don’t really realize what when on here with MF Global, the CME, and how the customers were treated. OK.

If the bit about having your wealth local so you can guard it with an assault rifle is all you took away from this, you aren’t paying attention. The real issue is the lack of integrity in the system. The rest falls out from that, and is the reason Ann made that comment. Do you have anything substantive to say on the underlying issues, or are you just trying to gin up an online argument with the stupid rubes out in the sticks? By the way, do you have one of these on your wall?: http://strangemaps.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/newyorker2.JPG

You can go back to your sparring with other FReepers on various issues now (some of which I agree with you on).


87 posted on 12/19/2011 4:04:08 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: FreedomPoster

/when/went/

Need coffee now.


88 posted on 12/19/2011 4:05:55 AM PST by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: aNYCguy
anarcho-primitivists

International trust was broken in 1971. Back in 2008 AP's like me noted the deeper breakdown of financial trust. It was partly papered over by sending TARP money to European banks and by central bank lending. The next bust will break it down further with more hard asset confiscation closer to home. Think about what Saudi will want for their oil, or China for their products. Paper IOUs?

89 posted on 12/19/2011 4:22:42 AM PST by palmer (Before reading this post, please send me $2.50)
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To: redgolum

Or, maybe the gold was never bought in the first place. They just took the money and used it to cover other losses until the holes were to big to hide anymore....................


90 posted on 12/19/2011 6:26:20 AM PST by Red Badger (Every child should have a meadow to play in..............)
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To: FreedomPoster
So you don’t really realize what when on here with MF Global, the CME, and how the customers were treated. OK.

No, actually, from what I've read it appears that these failed institutions are conspiring with the bankruptcy trustees to steal property from the depositors who trusted them. It is repugnant, and it is the sort of event responsible for Americans' dismally low faith in the financial sector.

So yes, I also think that the real issue is the lack of integrity in the system. It's apparent that private financial institution can steal public and private funds with the assistance of government without anyone being held accountable.

Unlike you, I think that talking about burying gold and standing over it with an assault rifle is a distraction. And if it's not the real issue for you, that's great, but it sure seems to rise to the top in many of these discussions.
91 posted on 12/19/2011 2:01:47 PM PST by aNYCguy
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To: aNYCguy

And I think that obtaining a little specie is something a prudent person might do, as well as having the capability to protect it and other close by physical assets. Of course, I live in a relatively free state, and you apparently live in a rather famously un-free area of a problematic, borderline un-free state.


92 posted on 12/19/2011 3:46:34 PM PST by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: aNYCguy

What do you consider “routine”.
That it happens at all, and when it does there is simply NO, NANA, ZIPPO criminally responsibile party involved since the theft was committed by an arm of the FEDERAL RESERVE, well son once is “routine” enough to convince me that it must happen a whole lot.
Where would you hear of it except from friends, since there is no crime?
CBS, ABC, NBC?
Either you are naive beyond tolerance, or you are one of the guys with the keys.


93 posted on 12/19/2011 4:51:07 PM PST by nkycincinnatikid
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To: nkycincinnatikid
Where would you hear of it except from friends, since there is no crime? CBS, ABC, NBC?

Yeah, that's where I'd expect to hear about a massive conspiracy to steal gold from individual customers' safe-deposit boxes. Newspapers, also. And magazines. Radio, too. You know, the media in general.

But I guess I should take your friends' word for it?
94 posted on 12/20/2011 8:39:41 PM PST by aNYCguy
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To: aNYCguy

Your trust in the media is a clue.
Even with your attitude you must have some aquaintances, if not friends, do you talk to them?
For a bank, raiding a safety deposit box has no more consequence than lending a half million dollars to Donald Duck and Minnie Mouse for a one bedroom shack.


95 posted on 12/21/2011 5:41:03 PM PST by nkycincinnatikid
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To: nkycincinnatikid

Okay, crazy man. I hope the banks don’t steal food from your fridge in the middle of the night.


96 posted on 12/21/2011 9:21:30 PM PST by aNYCguy
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To: blam

All of yuor banks are belong to us!


97 posted on 12/22/2011 8:44:52 AM PST by wastoute (Government cannot redistribute wealth. Government can only redistribute poverty.)
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To: wastoute
"All of your banks are belong to us! "

You too!!

Make Your Time.

98 posted on 12/22/2011 9:57:41 AM PST by blam
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