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Salvation Army marching toward abortion support?
WND ^ | 12/17/2011 | Anita Crane

Posted on 12/19/2011 1:34:47 PM PST by surroundedbyblue

This is the season of the year when Salvation Army volunteers are on the streets and outside stores ringing their bells to encourage donors to fill their red kettles with money for the poor. The longtime Christian organization provides food, shelter, elderly services, disaster relief, prisoner rehabilitation and many other forms of aid.

But it also has adopted a position statement that is a step toward abortion, and pro-life leaders are expressing alarm at what they see developing.

In its statement on abortion, the Salvation Army says: "A number of biblical and theological principles underpin The Salvation Army's position on abortion. …

(Excerpt) Read more at ...

TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: abortion; charity; christians; moralabsolutes; prolife; salvationarmy
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To: All; surroundedbyblue; wagglebee; BykrBayb; floriduh voter; Coleus; Salvation; little jeremiah; ...

IMPORTANT FYI to check out organizations that you contribute to (or might):

“Charitable Organizations and their Positions on the Life Issues

by ALL

Released December 19, 2011”

141 posted on 12/20/2011 10:16:14 PM PST by Sun (Pray that God sends us good leaders. Please say a prayer now.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

To my knowledge, there is no other place in the Bible where God "ensouls" another human being as he did Adam, yet we know we are all living souls. In fact there is no mention whatsoever in Genesis that God also did the same thing with Eve.

My point is that the soul, like life itself, is an unbroken chain, passed from one human being to another, and all of it originating from that very first breath of God to Adam.

This notion that God sits in heaven and zaps the unborn with a soul (not to mention life itself) at a certain point in gestation is simply nonsense.

142 posted on 12/20/2011 10:45:50 PM PST by csense
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To: surroundedbyblue
On a second note, I am very saddened by this news regarding the Salvation Army. I always make it a point to drop some money in the red kettles whenever I pass by, and I pass by them almost daily, and I do it regardless how broke I am.

<This, I'll have to rethink.

143 posted on 12/20/2011 10:58:42 PM PST by csense
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To: Zionist Conspirator; thesaleboat; Sick of Lefties; Chainmail; StrongandPround; lilyramone; ...
The position on abortion of being "not at any time and not for any reason" is a specifically Roman Catholic position. In fact, at one time there was a popular prejudice among Protestants against having babies at Catholic hospitals because if it came to a choice of the baby or the mother, the hospital would save the baby and let the mother die....But either way, whether an abortion is forbidden or mandatory, is determined by Divine Law and not by human reasoning, sentiment, or instincts--and certainly not by anyone's "choice!"
Very odd stuff!
144 posted on 12/20/2011 11:07:27 PM PST by narses
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To: csense; wagglebee; surroundedbyblue; trisham
This notion that God sits in heaven and zaps the unborn with a soul (not to mention life itself) at a certain point in gestation is simply nonsense.

Exactly. And the other rodef argument is a page right out of the liberal "exceptions to protect the life of the mother" playbook, an exception by which one can justify almost any abortion, as history has proven.

Years ago, Fr. Paul Marx, founder of HLI, was accused of being anti-semitic merely for asking why people of Jewish descent are disproportionately represented among abortion providers:

Human Life International (HLI), a Virginia-based anti-abortion group, has singled out Jews as disproportionately responsible for, even controlling, the abortion-rights movement. The organization’s founder, Father Paul Marx, wrote as long ago as 1977: "I do not blame the Jews for the abortion movement. I do say, and will say because it is the truth, that it is a strange thing how many leaders in the abortion movement are Jewish." Marx supported his observation by noting, "A famous genetics professor in Paris told me that the leaders of the abortion movement in France were Jewish. I saw one, a Jewish female liar, do her thing on behalf of abortion at the World Population Conference in Bucharest."

Marx also stated: "The fact is, I am surprised and shocked by the number of Jews who lead the abortion movement in so many countries after their horrendous experience with Hitler…. My medical friends, and I have many, have told me again and again how many Jewish doctors do abortions freely. From a highly reliable source in a city I shall not name for the moment, I learned of a Jewish doctor who does sixteen abortions every Saturday morning for $300.00 each."

A decade later, in a 1987 newsletter, Marx charged: "There’s a most ironic side to the widespread, furious objections of some Jews (and others) to Pope John Paul II’s routine diplomatic reception of Austrian President Kurt Waldheim: the same segment of the Jewish community that accuses the Pope of insensitivity to the Jewish Holocaust not only condones but has more or less led the greatest holocaust of all time, the war on babies.

"It’s obvious to anyone who’s studied the abortion movement in the Western world as long as I have (25 years), that a large segment of the Jews that is disloyal to the teachings of Judaism more or less leads the abortion movement."

In 1993, an article in HLI’s newsletter declared: "Today, certain members of this people whose ancient religion and culture managed to survive Auschwitz and Buchenwald are presiding over the greatest Holocaust in the history of the world. American Jews have been leaders in establishing and defending the efficient destruction of more than 30 million preborn children in this country….Why are the victims of one Holocaust perpetrating another?"

145 posted on 12/20/2011 11:36:05 PM PST by Brian Kopp DPM
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp
And the other rodef argument exception by which one can justify almost any abortion, as history has proven.


146 posted on 12/21/2011 12:57:30 AM PST by csense
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To: Dr. Brian Kopp; Zionist Conspirator
Unfortunately also, he is right about Halacha:
The circumstances under which an abortion may be performed are the subject of intense debate within the halakhic literature. The one basic principal upon which there is agreement - at least as a theoretical truth - is that fetal life has a lesser status than maternal life. This is evident from the Toraitic account (Exodus 21:22-23) of a fight between two men in which a pregnant woman is accidentally injured. If the fetus is lost but the woman survives, then the aggressor is punished with a fine, but if the woman is killed it is considered a capital crime, a case of "nefesh tachat nefesh", demanding the life of the guilty party in recompense for the life lost.

There are many more references that support this position:

147 posted on 12/21/2011 2:37:17 AM PST by csense
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To: Talisker; wagglebee
"So your philosophy is that the RAPED WOMAN is merely a toaster that pops out a baby..."

A fine example of a straw-man argument: set up a crude and outrageous statement that the other person did not make, and then knock it down.

From my experience in doing women's shelter work, I can tell you that if a woman is raped and gets pregnant, caring, organized, warm and responsive help is available (counseling services, pro-life pregnancy centers and so forth) will give her intensive support for 9 months ---and beyond, whether she decides to raise the child herself or place the child in the loving arms of adoptive parents she has chosen.

This is just the process a traumatized woman needs: ongoing, sensitive and supportive care for both herself and her child.

What a woman in such circumstances needs is peace and practical support. Her inward self has already been invaded with the intention of sexual assault. She does not need to be invaded again with the intention of homicide.

Abortion in such circumstances will profoundly assail a woman's innate sense of justice, since she knows she is not striking out against the brute who victimized her, but against her own blameless and vulnerable child.

A friend of mine who, as a medical student, assisted in abortion at Bronx Padiatric in the 1970's (yes, a pediatric hospital: all the pregnant patients were minors) was deeply discouraged to find that abortion did not provide the emotional relief that was hoped for in the case of girls pregnant by rape/incest. Psychological sequelae for young women who aborted, were as bad or worse than for those who gave birth.

They did not find abortion a simple therapeutic release from a conflict pregnancy. They found it a compounding factor for depression, self-hurt and self-rejection.

Look and listen, Talisker. There's something to learn here.

148 posted on 12/21/2011 6:33:07 AM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Audi alteram partem.)
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To: Talisker

You have no clue about rape or about pregnancy. The abortion is like a second rape, and too often not the woman’s choice, but imposed on her by others who expect her to abort. Some may actually believe she’d abort if she had been raped and doubt her story if she doesn’t. Husbands, fathers, boyfriends will pressure her to get rid of the other man’s child, more to satisfy their needs than hers.

Worse, abortion is a male solution, not a female solution. It’s truly invasive instrumentalization of the woman’s body to remove the supposed “invader.”

She knows that the embryo is her own child, and she will always wonder about him or her.

There may be times when a woman can not live with the knowledge that she’s carrying the rapist’s child. She may actually be suicidal. Those are times for more help, not for another knee-jerk male response.

149 posted on 12/21/2011 6:46:02 AM PST by hocndoc ( Have mustard seed, not afraid to use it. Cut spending, now,now,now!)
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To: Sun

Thanks. I shall support them from now on. I’m very saddened by this SA news, and find it both disheartening and shocking, given their recent strong stance against homosexuality.

150 posted on 12/21/2011 9:19:20 AM PST by madmaximus (Anyone But Robamney.)
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To: All; Admin Moderator; Jim Robinson; John Robinson; wideawake
Now that things have cooled down somewhat I want to apologize to everyone for taking the thread in the direction it went. That was not my intention. I also apologize to Jewish FReepers for trying to describe the Halakhic position on abortion when I am not knowledgeable enough to do so.

My original point was this: it's possible that the Salvation Army is going liberal, but it's also possible that the Salvation Army's position is in line with Halakhah. I don't know which. If the former, I am disgusted to hear it. If the latter, then well and good.

Different religions have different moral beliefs on various issues. Catholicism forbids divorce for any and all reasons (as I understand it). Judaism permits it (it's in the Torah), as do Protestantism and even Eastern Orthodoxy (up to a point). Similarly, the Torah permits (though it neither requires nor encourages) more than one wife at a time for a husband. Similarly the Torah (an ancient document) has laws that regulate slavery, concubinage, and even wars of extermination (these are also right there in the Biblical text). If one believes the Torah is either a mere human document (G-d forbid!) or of temporary duration (G-d forbid!) one can jettison these laws. If one, like myself, believes the Torah was actually written by G-d Himself and is eternal, then one does not have the option of saying "oh well, that was then; this is now." To believe the Torah is G-d's Ultimate Revelation is to believe these laws are eternally in force even when the circumstances they were originally given in no longer exist.

Judaism is not a pro-abortion religion; it celebrates life and fertility. But the authentic Jewish position on abortion is simply not the same as that of Catholicism. I am not responsible for this; I merely state the fact. There is absolutely no connection between the abortionism of liberal Jews and the genuine Halakhic position on abortion. Nor is the Halakhic position an elastic hole that one can drive a Mac truck through. It is in fact extremely restrictive. However, it is forbidden to add to the Torah or to subtract from it. The Halakhah is what it is, and though it agrees for the most part with the Catholic position it is not 100% identical to it. There is nothing hateful in merely stating this.

One poster pointed out that according to the Biblical text one who kills a pregnant woman is liable to the death penalty while one who causes a miscarriage is subject to a fine. This is the Biblical text. I did not write it. I have no say on how it is interpreted. It simply is what it is.

There is one and only one source of all morality: G-d. Apart from G-d nothing is right and nothing is wrong. To take a position apart from Divine legislation is to adopt a secular rationale. There is no secular rationale whatsoever for law, morality, ethics, or even why we are here. What G-d says is right is right; what G-d says is wrong is wrong. When G-d forbids one to kill one may not kill; when G-d commands one to kill one may not refrain from killing. No one can be more moral than G-d. The whole idea that G-d is a big meanie and that we are now more morally refined than His laws is the very source of liberalism (and Communism, and Randianism, and every other non-Theistic moral/ethical system).

I apologize to all who were offended or misrepresented by what I said. As I pointed out many times, I described things to the best of my limited knowledge.

Along the way I got the impression that I might be banned from this forum. I don't want to be banned from this forum and will endeavor to abide by all its rules. But I cannot change my religious beliefs or my understanding of G-d's Laws because of an Internet forum or even because of eighteenth century deists like Thomas Jefferson. My religious beliefs are very "primitive" by modern standards (even conservative ones). As I have admitted in the past I am a Theocrat and a Theonomist. I believe in a form of government that we will have in the future when Mashiach HaMelekh arrives and all mankind lives under his rule in accordance with the Laws of G-d and all false religions and false "gxds" are no more. My beliefs make me a guest on this forum and I acknowledge this and thank the Robinsons for putting up with me. It is their right to ban me (or anyone else) at any time and for any reason they choose. I will therefore endeavor to never again attempt to post what I understand to be the differences between the Catholic and authentic Jewish positions on abortion. But the differences do exist; I did not create them; and there is nothing I can do to make them go away.

I thank all FReepers for putting up with me. I know it isn't easy or fun.

My best to all FReepers at this festive season, and my prayers to G-d for our country at this crucial election cycle.

G-d help us all.

151 posted on 12/21/2011 4:24:49 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu.)
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To: madmaximus; All

You’re welcome. The website lists many charities with an explanation of which are pro-life, and which are NOT. Please tell your friends about the website.

My husband called the SA today to tell them his feelings.

152 posted on 12/21/2011 4:44:03 PM PST by Sun (Pray that God sends us good leaders. Please say a prayer now.)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

Before I became Catholic, I truly did not understand the pro-life arguments.

It was like why is abortion the most important thing? I understand now.

The right to life. It is a gift from God and we have no right to interfere.

I appreciate your honesty. You come from a whole different place but, it is not a liberal ‘kill the babies’ position.

Unlike so many Catholics in political life (who support pro-choice, otherwise know as pro-abortion) they will answer for their sins.

153 posted on 12/21/2011 7:36:23 PM PST by Not gonna take it anymore (Member of the First Church of Christ, I am Catholic)
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To: Zionist Conspirator

I came to this discussion late, and it may not be my place to say this, but I think you’re a stand up guy. Just thought I’d let you know that.

154 posted on 12/21/2011 10:35:06 PM PST by csense
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To: Hot Tabasco

If abortion is not a function of the Salvation Army, then why weigh in on the issue at all?

Oh, and if you have no problem with abortion when a result of rape or incest, you are not pro-life. It is an INNOCENT child! The rapist cannot even receive the death penalty in this country, yet you’re ok with the innocent child receiving it?

Please do me a favor and take a look at the following web-site:

Rebecca Kiessling was conceived in rape. What a shame had she been aborted, yet she was protected in law (born in 1969).

155 posted on 12/22/2011 4:25:22 AM PST by Catholic Iowan
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To: madmaximus

Other sources have been provided, including directly from the Salvation Army’s website. Are their own words unreliable to you, also?

156 posted on 12/22/2011 4:27:11 AM PST by Catholic Iowan
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To: Hot Tabasco

Funny you should bring up the Red Cross.

And as for defunding the Salvation Army and putting them out of business, if they want to find abortion acceptable in some circumstances, then yeah, put them out of business. I’d donate to St. Vincent de Paul. The SA is not the only organization that helps those less fortunate.

157 posted on 12/22/2011 4:33:12 AM PST by Catholic Iowan
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To: Hot Tabasco

Fair enough. I won’t support them either. But, from your posts, it doesn’t seem support for abortion or things that would further abortion, i.e., Obamacare, bother you all that much.

158 posted on 12/22/2011 4:39:15 AM PST by Catholic Iowan
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To: Zionist Conspirator
I merely state facts.

You state your own opinions. I also think it is extremely funny that someone who worships Jews but doesn't think he is good enough to be one thinks he can lecture others on what they are supposed to "think" about their own faith. You should concern yourself with your own pagan beliefs.

159 posted on 12/22/2011 5:07:37 AM PST by Hacksaw (I don't hate Mormons. Is that okay?)
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To: Catholic Iowan

Se my more previous posts on this thread. I just stated I will not support SA anymore.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth/s

160 posted on 12/22/2011 8:36:41 AM PST by madmaximus (Anyone But Robamney.)
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