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J.C. Penney CEO on Ellen DeGeneres controversy
CBS ^ | February 9, 2012 8:47 AM

Posted on 02/09/2012 6:56:53 AM PST by narses

(CBS News) J.C. Penney is trying to rebuild its customer base with help from a new spokeswoman, Ellen DeGeneres. But a group called One Million Moms is accusing the company of "jumping on the pro-gay bandwagon."

DeGeneres responded to the group on her TV show Wednesday, saying, "I'm happy about (being the spokesperson) J.C. Penney is happy about it. But there's this group called One Million Moms that is not happy about it. And normally I try not to pay attention to my haters, but this time I'd like to talk about it because my haters are my motivators. This organization doesn't think I should be the spokesperson because I am gay. So for those of you tuning in for the first time, I'm gay. I hope you were sitting down. ... So they wanted to get me fired, and I'm proud and happy to say that J.C. Penney stuck by their decision to make me their spokesperson."

In a statement last week, J.C. Penney said it stands behind its partnership the talk show host.

On "CBS This Morning," Thursday, J.C. Penney chief executive officer Ron Johnson, said the company "shares the same values" as DeGeneres and that the decision to have her as a spokesperson was a "no-brainer."

"We don't look at it like a controversy. One of the great things about America is people can speak their mind. And you know, the organization that believes one thing has spoken and it was great to see Ellen share her views yesterday. And we stand squarely behind Ellen as our spokesperson and that's a great thing. Because she shares the same values that we do in our company. Our company was founded 110 years ago on the golden rule, which is about treating people fair and square, just like you would like to be treated yourself. And we think Ellen represents the values of our company and the values that we share."


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: blunders; degeneres; homosexualagenda; jcpenney; retail
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To: CMAC51; wagglebee
She is gay so she is EVIL.

Pushing homosexuality as normal is evil. Homosexuals have a higher rate of domestic violence than heterosexuals.

They also have higher rates of diseases like Aids.

Trying to normalize deviancy is an evil act.

Before speaking such foolishness you should educate yourself on the subject first.

101 posted on 02/09/2012 10:09:06 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: longtermmemmory

note how she uses the word haters too.

I guess those fools which watch her but then say they’re conservatives don’;t mind be branded as a hater and like to add to her viewership


102 posted on 02/09/2012 10:09:13 AM PST by manc (FOX, DRUDGE, HAS BEEN DISGUSTING IN THEIR BIASED ATTACKS V NEWT. I HATE OUR BIASED LIBERAL MEDIA.)
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To: BykrBayb; manc; trisham

Some people have no moral compass & seem very diabolically confused. They don’t want to point out that Ellen represents a very evil agenda because she’s funny, is popular, etc. It’s a shame. These FReepers need prayers that the scales will fall from their eyes.


103 posted on 02/09/2012 10:11:24 AM PST by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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To: CMAC51

when my MIL stops watching her then we know she is a talentless woman who has been pushing her homosexual too much.

MIL saw her and heard her make some disgusting comments to another woman , and that was it, no more of the pro homo woman who likes to call conservatives haters.

Let her show lie Rosie go to crap and that will teach the left that their agenda is not popular.
I for one don’t even have that channel on because I do not want to add to her viewership


104 posted on 02/09/2012 10:12:41 AM PST by manc (FOX, DRUDGE, HAS BEEN DISGUSTING IN THEIR BIASED ATTACKS V NEWT. I HATE OUR BIASED LIBERAL MEDIA.)
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To: sand lake bar; wagglebee; trisham
Like you, I’m not going to base decisions about where I shop, what movies I see, etc. on someone’s sexual orientation. If Tony Randall was gay, should I have avoided his movies? Should I have kept my daughter from watching “Finding Nemo”?

As Americans, we have the right of association and the right to support, or not, those that share our values. I understand that others do not have an issue with immorality but as conservatives, watching society circle the drain, we do.

105 posted on 02/09/2012 10:15:33 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: manc

Agreed.


106 posted on 02/09/2012 10:16:36 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: CMAC51

so you give up your morals and views because she gives some of her millions away .

WOW, Now I know why we are losing,

How about take a stand, teach the kids it is wrong and just because she does a couple of nice things does not take away that she is pushing her homo agenda which for a conservative or a republican is wrong.

On the other hand you sound you are like one of her groupies, settle down in front of the TV nearly every day and just take it all in and think “what a swell woman, she is funny”

There are many other shows on if you like TV which do not push what you are supposed to be against.


107 posted on 02/09/2012 10:17:45 AM PST by manc (FOX, DRUDGE, HAS BEEN DISGUSTING IN THEIR BIASED ATTACKS V NEWT. I HATE OUR BIASED LIBERAL MEDIA.)
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To: surroundedbyblue

Absolutely correct.


108 posted on 02/09/2012 10:18:22 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: SaraJohnson
I've never watched Ellen's show, but I am aware of it. I've heard some of her comedy bits on XM Comedy--and when it is not talking about relationships/gay stuff, she is pretty funny. The thing is about Penney's, they give the illusion of endorsing her, when she is paid to endorse them. And she is known for being out front with her lesbian relationships.

That is where the trouble begins. I think of Charles Nelson Riley on the old Match Game show. It was obvious he was homosexual, but he never talked about his boyfriend(s) or whatever. He was a funny dude. He could be a spokesman for somebody, and I don't think anybody would have cared much. He was a flamboyant guy and that's it. Ellen seems to have crossed over and gotten a little political with it. And I guess we will see if anybody cares.

109 posted on 02/09/2012 10:20:29 AM PST by Pappy Smear (Support the presidency, end the policies.)
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To: surroundedbyblue

After lying to their children, telling them that homosexual activity is normal and healthy, they won’t accept any responsibility when their children follow their advice and suffer the consequences.


110 posted on 02/09/2012 10:33:17 AM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: Grunthor

“”Well she’s in those make-up commercials and those don’t seem to be overtly pushing the gay agenda.””

You are correct and who among us wouldn’t love to be able to apply makeup like that and have it look as good???


111 posted on 02/09/2012 10:35:40 AM PST by Thank You Rush
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To: narses
Got news for you Ellen.

I don't hate you.

I pity you.

And now I pity JC Penney. As they are following the K-Mart business plan.

112 posted on 02/09/2012 10:36:32 AM PST by N. Theknow (Kennedys=Can't drive, can't ski, can't fly, can't skipper a boat, but they know what's best for you.)
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To: manc

“”There are many other shows on if you like TV which do not push what you are supposed to be against.””

SUPPOSED TO BE AGAINST? Is that a new rule or regulation?


113 posted on 02/09/2012 10:39:38 AM PST by Thank You Rush
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To: Thank You Rush; wagglebee; trisham
You are correct and who among us wouldn’t love to be able to apply makeup like that and have it look as good???

So you base morality on whether someone can apply makeup well???

If she were a pedophile would that be okay because makeup looks good on her?

114 posted on 02/09/2012 10:41:30 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: wagglebee
So, people who don't want militant homosexuality pushed on their children are "bigots"?

No, people who automatically assign the title of militant homsexual to anyone who is gay are bigoted. You made the charge, now defend it, what factual examples do you have of Ellen being a militant homosexual?

So far all I've heard is venom without any sign of there really being a snake.

115 posted on 02/09/2012 10:42:52 AM PST by CMAC51
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To: Thank You Rush

a new rule er, lets see, against but help, nah doesn’;t make sense , things like common sense, principles, you know those sort of things things you are supposed to be against as a republican but still add to the viewership thuis help the queer agenda.

Why say you’re a conservative and then go out and help the agenda which you are supposed to be against.
bit like saying one is Catholic but then have no problem with homo’s marrying or buying kids from others and playing happy families


116 posted on 02/09/2012 10:43:42 AM PST by manc (FOX, DRUDGE, HAS BEEN DISGUSTING IN THEIR BIASED ATTACKS V NEWT. I HATE OUR BIASED LIBERAL MEDIA.)
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To: DJ MacWoW

oh well some homosexuals can have her make up put on looking good , so all is well, lets just throw out our agenda, our platform, our morals, our issues.

Nope we all like the make up so lets just ignore the issues which we are all against and take a stand on.

No wonder the left gets away with their agenda, we only have a handful of folks who actually mean what they say and do as they say.


117 posted on 02/09/2012 10:48:39 AM PST by manc (FOX, DRUDGE, HAS BEEN DISGUSTING IN THEIR BIASED ATTACKS V NEWT. I HATE OUR BIASED LIBERAL MEDIA.)
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To: Pappy Smear

remember why she agendaed her private sexual choices. Her career was on life support and dying. She came out out of desperation. she went from “a comedian” to “a homosexual who is a comedian”. There after anyone who did not like her shtick was anti-homosexual.

I can’t believe her “she’s a homosexual” show is still on the air. Is it on the oprah network nobody watches?

JCP is publicly traded is it not?

(in a related political suicide story, Darden is down. They own olive garden)


118 posted on 02/09/2012 10:52:30 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: kcvl
Investors differed, and the shares sank during Johnson’s 90-minute presentation. It was a signal that his plan fell short of the excitement that has followed Johnson since he became chief executive officer in June after turning Apple Inc. (AAPL) stores into the world’s most successful retail operation.

Maybe the stock sank during the speech, but it soared right after it. It closed on the 25th at 33.61. Five days later it was at 42.07.

119 posted on 02/09/2012 10:54:31 AM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: manc

I can’t believe the superficial crap and acceptance of deviant behavior that I’m seeing displayed on a CONSERVATIVE website.


120 posted on 02/09/2012 10:55:19 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: CMAC51; wagglebee
America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within. - Joseph Stalin

I guess it will work. You're living proof.

121 posted on 02/09/2012 10:56:33 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: CMAC51

Back in her Heche days, when she first came out publicly, Ellen DeGeneres was 24/7 in your face proclaiming her lesbianism. You couldn’t go to the supermarket checkout without seeing some loud headline featuring one or the other or both of them, mostly DeGeneres. She eventually cut back on that, but for a while it was beyond tiresome.

There have been no corresponding tabloids proclaiming DeGeneres’s kindness, generosity, respectfulness nor lovingness, casting her as a Latter Day Oprah. So, the ‘values’ she’d be most noted for are those of the gay lifestyle. THAT is where the problem lies, apparently for many. Personally, I could care less in this instance. I neither watch “Ellen” nor shop at JCP, and its spokesman would have little to do with whether I chose to shop there or not.


122 posted on 02/09/2012 10:58:40 AM PST by EDINVA
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To: DJ MacWoW

you and I both.

If people stood on principles instead of saying they are one thing but then help what they are supposed to be against then this country would be better off.

Watching or buying what Ellen or others sell or promote is helping what so called conservatives say they’re against.

Amazing how fickle some are, that they cannot even turn off a TV show or not shop at stores like home depot.


123 posted on 02/09/2012 11:01:34 AM PST by manc (FOX, DRUDGE, HAS BEEN DISGUSTING IN THEIR BIASED ATTACKS V NEWT. I HATE OUR BIASED LIBERAL MEDIA.)
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To: narses

“One of the great things about America is people can speak their mind.”

Really? What America are you living in? For me, I’m sick of having ‘GAY’ shoved down my throat.

So far, (and I live in WA state), as of today, I have to:

1. Live with the fact that gay marriage is equal in every way to Holy Matrimony. They have written in exceptions for religious institutions to do their own thing, but for unknown reasons, businesses in that business didn’t get the same fair shake on that. They either serve both, or they get sued.

2. I know have to live with the fact that ‘Gay is both NORMAL and EQUAL’ is going to be taught, not just in schools, but everywhere the state can reach my kids.

3. I can’t say, “Wait, does that mean that Dad = Mom now in the eyes of the law”, since I would imagine that an adoption agency that says it won’t place kids with gay couples will get sued out of existence, right? Maybe that’s good news, since for the first time EVER, a man will have the same rights as women in family court. Right? That’s going to happen because fair is fair . . .

4. I can’t even say, “Wait, regardless of what the law says, gay marriage and matrimony are very much not equal.” I can’t even object anymore, because suddenly a gay man’s 14th amendment rights, with all its penumbras and emanations, trumps my 1st amendment right to say, “That’s crap.”

5. I suppose, since men and women are now interchangeble in the eyes of the law, more pubescent daughters will look forward to shopping for bras with their fathers. After all, there’s not a dime’s worth of difference between what a MAN is best suited to do as a Father, and what a WOMAN is best suited to do as a mother, and no amount of research, religious belief, common sense, or cultural tradition anybody cares to present after today in WA state can change it.

6. This Sunday, I won’t even be able to walk into a Church in the United States and pray within a sanctuary where that community of believers can preach on the one hand that human life is sacred, and practice it at the same time. That’s now illegal.

7. Last, but not least, there is simply no reason in the world remaining to actually APPLY SOME SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH to the idea that perhaps something CAUSES people to be attracted to the same sex that can be addressed and cured. We already say that pedophilia is a syndrome, and as such there is research into drugs that treat such a thing - steps being taken to look for a cure.

Now, of course, the fact that a gay man is the EXACT SAME THING as a straight man, you can’t even suggest that the gay man has some sort of illness, disorder, malady, genetic anomaly, et. al. Difference between a black man and a white man? There is zero difference. Difference between a man attracted to women and a man attracted to other men, or perhaps even very young men? Common sense says there is, and medical science might even back you up on this, were ANY RESEARCH AT ALL ON THIS were brought to bear on the question.

Recently, Cynthia Nixon nearly lost her ‘special liberal hollywood actress status’ for uttering the words ‘being a lesbian was my choice’. If it’s a choice, well, then why are we talking about ‘God making you that way’, which of course is the very thing pedophiles say when asked ‘Why’, and similarly with arsonists, mass murderers, etc. ‘Baby I was born this way’, right Ga Ga?

I think its funny that the left gave up trying to get rid or around the 2nd amendment after over 40 years of trying, and then in less than a month completely destroy the 1st Amendment. I’d like to get a group of journalists together with a bunch of Catholic Bishops to talk about the actual possibility that their rights as journalists will remain protected and intact under this administration.

Right now, the Bishops have sore butts, their backs are sticky, their purses are gone, and the window to the backyard was left wide open. No way that’s going to happen to Chris Matthews, right Chris? Obama just loves you too much.


124 posted on 02/09/2012 11:06:12 AM PST by RinaseaofDs (Does beheading qualify as 'breaking my back', in the Jeffersonian sense of the expression?)
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To: manc

They don’t see the harm. They don’t follow through on what happens when they accept the premise that “ They aren’t bad people!” Of course not all homosexuals are bad. But they do all have corrupt morals and by accepting the corruption, those that accept it also become corrupt.


125 posted on 02/09/2012 11:08:18 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: manc; Jvette
A few weeks ago I sat in on a JC Penney employees meeting viewing their CEO Ron giving his “speech” to them about the “New” face of JC Penney. It was basically about the same format most companies give when introducing their face-lifts to their employees..and a kickoff to that.

However.......When he announced DeGeneres as their new spokesperson I more than cringed! From a business perspective what were they thinking! Observing employees faces to this news, more than one eye rolled to the top of their heads...and rightfully so.

Having worked among these employees for a few years now it's pretty much a taboo to express ones thoughts which isn't in line with their liberal stances. Should you do so it will be met with anything from “that's not allowed” to “you could loose your job”. Political correctness is everywhere throughout.

Additionally it's not unusual to see Quotes from Hinduism to Environmental quotes and even Moe has been quoted on their daily info sheets. So there's evidence they are fully in line with the Progressive/Liberal line of thinking.

The store changes reflect much of the “Target” stores way of doing things, and would be so since the CEO was 20 odd years with target before going to Apple. This attempt seems to be at trying to bring Penneys into the 21st Century.....may or may not work as we watch to see these changes come about. But as Jvette stated...for the employees who work there it's not easy to consider other work at this time in our country.

126 posted on 02/09/2012 11:10:45 AM PST by caww
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To: Thank You Rush

You’ve been here since 2002 and you’ve never read Jim Robinson’s statement on the home page of this site?


127 posted on 02/09/2012 11:14:55 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: manc
yea ,I mean there wasn’;t any other women about , I mean after all she is a talentless, liberal pro homosexual agenda woman, who uses her show to fool the sheep .

I’ve tried to watch her as the wife has and even the MIL has now stopped watching her.

I never said I watched her show or that I was a fan. I merely said that she's funny.

Good grief, folks ... if you disagree with JCP, then don't shop there. I don't shop there anyway ... in fact rarely ever step inside JCP. But even still ... they're free to hire whomever they want. Period. Just as you are free to ignore them. But to call on a company to fire someone just because of their sexual orientation is downright unAmerican.

128 posted on 02/09/2012 11:16:25 AM PST by al_c (http://www.blowoutcongress.com)
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To: Thank You Rush
"As a conservative site, Free Republic is pro-God, pro-life, pro-family, pro-Constitution, pro-Bill of Rights, pro-gun, pro-limited government, pro-private property rights, pro-limited taxes, pro-capitalism, pro-national defense, pro-freedom, and-pro America. We oppose all forms of liberalism, socialism, fascism, pacifism, totalitarianism, anarchism, government enforced atheism, abortionism, feminism, homosexualism, racism, wacko environmentalism, judicial activism, etc. We also oppose the United Nations or any other world government body that may attempt to impose its will or rule over our sovereign nation and sovereign people. We believe in defending our borders, our constitution and our national sovereignty."

~ Jim Robinson

129 posted on 02/09/2012 11:18:28 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham; DJ MacWoW; BykrBayb; TheOldLady; surroundedbyblue
Grunthor appears to have been zotted!

There are at least two other trolls on this thread.

130 posted on 02/09/2012 11:20:13 AM PST by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: al_c

Read post #126. Then we’ll talk about just who is un-American.


131 posted on 02/09/2012 11:20:54 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: wagglebee

Good.


132 posted on 02/09/2012 11:22:16 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: wagglebee

Good.

Kudos to the Troll Slayers.


133 posted on 02/09/2012 11:24:51 AM PST by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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To: Thank You Rush

God commands you to be against sin. Didn’t you know that?


134 posted on 02/09/2012 11:25:45 AM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: al_c
To hire them because of their deviancy is downright Stalinesque.

America is like a healthy body and its resistance is threefold: its patriotism, its morality, and its spiritual life. If we can undermine these three areas, America will collapse from within. - Joseph Stalin

So....tell me, just who is it that's unAmerican?

135 posted on 02/09/2012 11:26:49 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: trisham
Read post #126. Then we’ll talk about just who is un-American.

Having worked among these employees for a few years now it's pretty much a taboo to express ones thoughts which isn't in line with their liberal stances. Should you do so it will be met with anything from “that's not allowed” to “you could loose your job”. Political correctness is everywhere throughout.

Yep ...that qualifies as "unAmerican" too.

136 posted on 02/09/2012 11:28:45 AM PST by al_c (http://www.blowoutcongress.com)
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To: al_c

“she probably flaunts it the least.....”

this is where the mistake is made when you start accepting this premise. It’s still wrong.
If Jihadist were a little less hateful would that be ok?


137 posted on 02/09/2012 11:30:11 AM PST by oust the louse (The presstitutes think after a few primaries it's over ...Santorum says: GAME ON)
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To: al_c

That’s what is happening almost everywhere, and not just in this country.


138 posted on 02/09/2012 11:31:09 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: oust the louse

Did I say it was “right?”

Good grief ... lots of twisting words going on in this thread.


139 posted on 02/09/2012 11:31:51 AM PST by al_c (http://www.blowoutcongress.com)
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To: manc

there is a creepy cosmetics commercial with ellen degenerate.

It is painful to even glimpse. beyond hideous.

JCP ALMOST could have pulled it out of the fire with their no wait for sales concept. Now this makes JCP all hopeless.

We should start a bankruptcy pool.


140 posted on 02/09/2012 11:34:04 AM PST by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: al_c

Which is worse? Consumers telling a company that they won’t shop there any longer because of a controversial spokesperson, or a company firing an employee because they weren’t politically correct/liberal enough?


141 posted on 02/09/2012 11:35:07 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: circlecity

We shop Penney’s, have their card and have had for years. - IF they have hired a few other “spokespersons” to represent them along side the “gay” agenda one, okay - AND if they do not present snide and coy commercials pushing the “Brokeback Mountain” scenario, I’ll hold off acting on this.

However, IF Ellen is to be the primary spokesperson for Penney’s doing “double entendre” commercials or anything pushing the homosexual agenda, we’ll be outta there fast and enduring.

Frankly, I think Penney’s is making a big mistake here. Ellen’s face is already “out there” plenty with her long Walmart makeup gig (also may be at other stores); so it’s not like if she doesn’t get the Penney’s gig she’s gonna go broke.


142 posted on 02/09/2012 11:38:30 AM PST by Twinkie (John 3:16)
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To: trisham

This thread illustrates why America is circling the drain. The left is VERY good a propaganda.


143 posted on 02/09/2012 11:39:36 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: longtermmemmory

“there is a creepy cosmetics commercial with ellen degenerate”

I agree it’s creepy. She practically molests the other female in the commercial (I forget who it is - Drew Barrymore, maybe?). Anyway, I feel violated just looking at it.

How many men would want to do a touchy-feely ad spot with a homo fag??


144 posted on 02/09/2012 11:40:19 AM PST by surroundedbyblue (Live the message of Fatima - pray & do penance!)
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To: DJ MacWoW
You're right. There are people right here on this thread that don't think that it is "American" to openly voice our objections to a companies choice for a spokesperson. Since when?

When did some Americans decide that free speech is not our right as citizens?

145 posted on 02/09/2012 11:43:52 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: trisham

Americans didn’t decide that. See post 121.


146 posted on 02/09/2012 11:47:44 AM PST by BykrBayb (Somewhere, my flower is there. ~ Þ)
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To: trisham

The marxists in control of political correctness decided. Americans are silenced under the guise of “hurting someones feelings”. The PC mantra has even invaded conservative thinking.


147 posted on 02/09/2012 11:54:03 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: trisham
When did some Americans decide that free speech is not our right as citizens?

Your kidding, right? You were cheering when some guy got zotted a few minutes ago!

148 posted on 02/09/2012 11:54:03 AM PST by al44
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To: al44; trisham
You were cheering when some guy got zotted a few minutes ago!

Darn straight! FR is private property and is a conservative, grassroots, activist site. FR will NOT tolerate the leftist view being posted and pushed on here. The owner is VERY clear about that.

149 posted on 02/09/2012 11:57:19 AM PST by DJ MacWoW (America! The wolves are here! What will you do?)
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To: al44

This is a private site. Do you object to that?


150 posted on 02/09/2012 11:57:44 AM PST by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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