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States considering bills that would make kids repeat third grade for failing reading tests
foxnews.com ^ | 2/13/12 | WSJ

Posted on 02/13/2012 3:47:38 PM PST by ColdOne

DENVER – Lawmakers in at least four US states are considering legislation that would make students repeat third grade if they can't pass state reading exams, reviving debates about whether retaining students boosts achievement or increases their odds of dropping out.

A bipartisan group of lawmakers in Colorado introduced legislation early this month that would prod schools to hold back children in kindergarten through third grade who don't meet state reading standards. In the early grades, parents could insist the child be promoted, but at third grade, the school district would have the ultimate say.

"The goal is not to retain students, but to get parents, teachers and students all working collaboratively to address the literacy problems when they first show up," said Colorado state Sen. Mike Johnston, a Democrat who is a sponsor of the bill.

Iowa, New Mexico and Tennessee also are considering bills on the issue.

All the bills, as well as similar ones passed recently in Oklahoma, Arizona and Indiana, aim to address literacy deficiencies that exist nationwide. Only one third of US schoolchildren had proficient scores on the most recent national reading exam, and scores have barely budged in two decades. That comes as children have made steady gains in math.

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: homeschooling; publicschools; unions

1 posted on 02/13/2012 3:47:46 PM PST by ColdOne
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To: ColdOne
If they aren't learning anything, what difference does it make if they are "retained" or drop out?

Other than job security for members of teachers unions, I mean?

2 posted on 02/13/2012 3:56:58 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the fascists.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Depends on why they didn’t learn to read in third grade. If they cannot read after third grade, however, they are going to just continue falling further and further behind.


3 posted on 02/13/2012 4:01:14 PM PST by brytlea (An ounce of chocolate is worth a pound of cure)
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To: ColdOne

Holding them back is better than pushing them through. If a student has difficulty in acquiring academic skills, it’s going to get worse for him as he goes through the system.

I think a better system would be to customize the cirriculum. If he’s functioning at grade three math, that’s what he should be learning. If he’s able to do grade 4 language arts, that is what he should be taught.


4 posted on 02/13/2012 4:02:36 PM PST by Jonty30 (What Islam and secularism have in common is that they are both death cults.)
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To: ColdOne

So now, keeping a failing kid in the same is a big story?

Social promotion is now the norm I guess.


5 posted on 02/13/2012 4:08:55 PM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: brytlea

WIll they make sure they have a different teacher?


6 posted on 02/13/2012 4:10:54 PM PST by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: ColdOne

Good idea from a former teacher here!


7 posted on 02/13/2012 4:11:16 PM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ColdOne
There should be standards at every step of the way, no social promotions.

A diploma should indicate something more than time spent aggravating teachers.

8 posted on 02/13/2012 4:12:35 PM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum
This is a slightly disguised effort to improve the performance of highschool athletic teams in certain parts of the state.

Frankly, it's unfair ~ and not scientifically valid.

9 posted on 02/13/2012 4:31:43 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
This is a slightly disguised effort to improve the performance of highschool athletic teams in certain parts of the state.

The article mentions four states. In which one is it an effort to improve high school athletic teams?

Frankly, it's unfair ~ and not scientifically valid.

That's a tantalizing statement. But I have no idea what you intend it to mean.

10 posted on 02/13/2012 4:39:30 PM PST by BfloGuy (The final outcome of the credit expansion is general impoverishment.)
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To: ColdOne

That’s just great. Punish the kids when it’s their IDIOT parents that are sending them to public schools and actually thinking they’ll learn something.

You don’t have to be a brain surgeon to figure out that kids won’t learn jack from “Sight Words” and that if you don’t have them reading, via phonics, by the end of Kindergarten, you’ve basically failed at your job.


11 posted on 02/13/2012 4:49:38 PM PST by BobL (I don't care about his past - Santorum will BRING THE FIGHT to Obama)
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To: BfloGuy
Read that as "State is" not as "States".

All of them that have highly competitive highschool football.

If you hold them back a year in gradeschool by the time they get to highschool they are a year older than they would otherwise be ~ 17 rather than 18, or 18 rather than 19.

Some states have actually debated new laws to prohibit the practice.

There's no scientific evidence that repeating 3rd grade makes you able to read better than not repeating 3rd grade.

12 posted on 02/13/2012 4:50:34 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

There are already suitable CDs that can help your chil’ learn to read, write, type, do math, or understand history. You don’t need to wait on the schools to buy into electronically augmented learning!


13 posted on 02/13/2012 4:53:06 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: ColdOne
please, if their dumbazz can't read, they'll prolly drop out anyway...
14 posted on 02/13/2012 4:54:05 PM PST by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: muawiyah
This is a slightly disguised effort to improve the performance of highschool athletic teams in certain parts of the state.

Selecting for twenty-year old high school football players, eh?

15 posted on 02/13/2012 5:34:22 PM PST by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the fascists.)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

Not at all uncommon for parents to “redshirt” kindergartners here in Indiana specifically for potential sports prowess. A fair number of nursery schools have developed a “pre-k” year to accomodate them.


16 posted on 02/13/2012 5:37:41 PM PST by nascarnation (DEFEAT BARAQ 2012 DEPORT BARAQ 2013)
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To: E. Pluribus Unum

That was the national obsession in Texas for a very long time.


17 posted on 02/13/2012 5:45:32 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: ColdOne

When we sent our oldest daughter to the public school system in Jefferson County Colorado she was reading. We were so proud. By 2nd grade she was identified as a special needs student. We had a hard time with that since she did not show us that she was having a problem. Come to find out it was a way to get extra funding for the system. My husband told them we are pulling her & we were told that is a big mistake. Private school came through. Has a masters in IT. The other 2 daughters started out in private school but it broke us. College did take it all financially. But they all graduated with a master degrees. My kids are not a drain on the system. They pay their way. We would of been so disappointed if they felt they should be collecting from the entitlements.


18 posted on 02/13/2012 6:46:15 PM PST by Anna W
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To: ColdOne

When we sent our oldest daughter to the public school system in Jefferson County Colorado she was reading. We were so proud. By 2nd grade she was identified as a special needs student. We had a hard time with that since she did not show us that she was having a problem. Come to find out it was a way to get extra funding for the system. My husband told them we are pulling her & we were told that is a big mistake. Private school came through. Has a masters in IT. The other 2 daughters started out in private school but it broke us. College did take it all financially. But they all graduated with a master degrees. My kids are not a drain on the system. They pay their way. We would of been so disappointed if they felt they should be collecting from the entitlements.


19 posted on 02/13/2012 6:46:51 PM PST by Anna W
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To: muawiyah
Kids in this family have traditionally been reading before they started school, long before Sesame Street came along.

I reviewed a lot of job applications over the years. Unless you've done something like that you have no idea how common functional illiteracy is.

If a student can't read without effort, and comprehend what he is reading, he should never enter high school. It is a waste of resources.

20 posted on 02/13/2012 6:52:51 PM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

“There should be standards at every step of the way, no social promotions.

A diploma should indicate something more than time spent aggravating teachers.”

Amen, amen, amen!


21 posted on 02/13/2012 7:03:37 PM PST by GenXteacher (He that hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart!)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

Third grade ~ by then the kid is 8 or 9. He should have been reading 6 years already. If he doesn’t read by this time, a repetition of third grade isn’t going to help.


22 posted on 02/13/2012 7:06:19 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: ColdOne

But they won’t do that with math exams for ninth-graders, will they.


23 posted on 02/13/2012 7:29:17 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: ColdOne

BTW, privatize it all.


24 posted on 02/13/2012 7:30:06 PM PST by familyop (We Baby Boomers are croaking in an avalanche of rotten politics smelled around the planet.)
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To: muawiyah
Third grade ~ by then the kid is 8 or 9. He should have been reading 6 years already. If he doesn’t read by this time, a repetition of third grade isn’t going to help.

And a social promotion to fourth grade will?

25 posted on 02/13/2012 7:35:05 PM PST by Bob
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To: Bob

Yes. Holding him back won’t help him or the other children. Or, you could let him just stay at home. Why do you need that kid at school except to get the state payment per student day.


26 posted on 02/13/2012 7:38:44 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
Yes. Holding him back won’t help him or the other children.

How will a social promotion to a grade for which he's unprepared help a student?

27 posted on 02/13/2012 8:21:15 PM PST by Bob
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

It was very frustrating, when I taught 9th grade science (physical science) and probably half the class couldn’t read at grade level. It’s impossible to teach them when they cannot read the text book. I’m all for whatever it takes to teach them to read. I think home school is wonderful and if every parent wants to keep their kids and home and teach them I say, “Right on!” However it’s never going to happen. And so, we need to figure out how to teach as many kids as possible to read, at the very least.
And we used to do that. I have plenty of ideas as to how we have ruined a perfectly good system, but the fact remains. We need to fix it. BTW I was reading before I started school (my Mom taught me, but I don’t think any of my brothers or sisters were reading when they started school). And none of my 3 boys were reading when they started school. All 3 were quickly reading above grade level once they started being taught, at school. I only mention this to say that it’s not essential that they be taught before K’garten for them to succeed. All 3 of mine have college degrees, one has an MBA.


28 posted on 02/13/2012 8:41:28 PM PST by brytlea (An ounce of chocolate is worth a pound of cure)
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To: GeronL

I don’t know what their plan is. But if they don’t teach them to read they might as well send them home.


29 posted on 02/13/2012 8:45:10 PM PST by brytlea (An ounce of chocolate is worth a pound of cure)
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To: brytlea
When I was growing up my father never said no to an encyclopedia salesman. I read them like novels. My daughter grew up in a home where books fell out of closets if you didn't open the door carefully. I live with my daughters family now, there are books all over the place.

I never saw a TV until I was 10, a neighbor bought one. Daddy bought a kit from somewhere, I was 11, he soldered it all together and we had a TV, but it had a big rectangular magnifying glass in front of a little picture tube. My part in the effort was sorting resistors by the color coded stripes.

When I look at the way most people live today I'm almost surprised that any kids really learn anything, it's all spectator sport, no active participation.

30 posted on 02/13/2012 10:04:48 PM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: Bob
Are you asking a rhetorical question?

I've answered it completely ~ he's as prepared as he's going to be. Repeating third grade will not increase his level of preparedness.

You need to supplement traditional box down school indoctrination with other materials and techniques.

31 posted on 02/14/2012 12:58:14 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

I do agree with you. Reading was a huge part of my life growing up, my Mom read to me (probably why I could read when Is started school —I remember pretending to read when I was very small, I wanted to read so badly). And I was the kid in class that was always in trouble for rushing thru my work so I could pull out my latest book and read, I was always reading books that were ahead of what we were reading in that grade.
My own kids were also immersed in books, I read to them every night before bedtime (and during the day as well). In fact, I’m expecting my first grandchild soon and have been going thru their books (boxes and boxes!) to send on to my son for their child. Plus perusing the used book store for other ones since kids books don’t always live thru the experience if they are well used (by three boys). I do also have some of my old books. I know it’s not boy stuff but I loved the Raggedy Ann and Andy set my Mom bought me when I was about 10. I don’t have all of them anymore but I have a few of them. I will keep them to read to my Grandchildren when they visit.
And I so agree about TV. My own kids laugh now about how little TV I let them watch. When I was a kid there wasn’t that much on, so it wasn’t as big an issue.


32 posted on 02/14/2012 9:18:09 AM PST by brytlea (An ounce of chocolate is worth a pound of cure)
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To: muawiyah
Are you asking a rhetorical question?

I've answered it completely ~ he's as prepared as he's going to be. Repeating third grade will not increase his level of preparedness.

No, it was not a rhetorical question and, no, you didn't answer it at all, let alone completely.

I questioned whether advancing the student would help the him and you said yes.

I then asked how it would help him. You haven't explained if or how it would help. You're just replying that repeating the grade won't help because "he's as prepared as he's going to be". Your claim that repeating the grade won't help him doesn't answer the question of how advancing him will.

33 posted on 02/14/2012 1:09:23 PM PST by Bob
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To: Bob
If you are not going to improve, how does doing it over help?

Do you think the intent of school should be to punish children?

Look, we have more methods available to us today than they did in the good old days so we don't even need schools.

You keep asking me if I want social promotions, but that's meaningless in light of the problem with the child who hasn't been already reading for 6 years by the the time he gets to 3rd grade. You are dealing with a special needs kid ~ and you need to use different methods, not just hit him up side the head with the same old same old.

34 posted on 02/14/2012 1:55:52 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: ColdOne
Lawmakers in at least four US states are considering legislation that would make students repeat third grade if they can't pass state reading exams, reviving debates about whether retaining students boosts achievement or increases their odds of dropping out.

If they haven't mastered 3rd grade material adequately, then they shouldn't go on to 4th grade. I don't care if they drop out or not - that's their problem. My problem is that I'm a taxpayer and I'm paying for a severely defective product. If I'm going to have the fruit of my labor stolen to support someone else's kid's education, the least they could do is actually educate them.

Flunk 'em if they don't pass muster. The ones that care will try harder, while the ones that don't will do what they've been doing anyway - drop out and turn to a life of crime.

A high school diploma doesn't mean squat any more.

35 posted on 02/14/2012 2:04:30 PM PST by meyer (We will not sit down and shut up.)
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To: Bob
How will a social promotion to a grade for which he's unprepared help a student?

It won't, but it will certainly hold the rest of the class back while the teacher caters to the lowest achiever.

36 posted on 02/14/2012 2:07:54 PM PST by meyer (We will not sit down and shut up.)
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To: muawiyah
There's no scientific evidence that repeating 3rd grade makes you able to read better than not repeating 3rd grade.

That would be hard to prove conclusively. It still seems to me to be the most efficient way of reviewing failed subjects. Of course, you have to understand that I came from a rural school in the sixties where, perhaps, one child needed to be held back in a given year.

When we're talking 1/4 to 1/2 of the class; other problems are at work.

37 posted on 02/14/2012 3:25:51 PM PST by BfloGuy (The final outcome of the credit expansion is general impoverishment.)
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To: muawiyah

“If you are not going to improve, how does doing it over help?”

In my experience, 9/10ths of students that do not pass are pretty much making no effort to do so. Retention helps them understand that they have to actually perform in order to be promoted to the next grade, which also reflects reality outside the classroom in many ways. Just sending them on without having them meet any academic standard informs them that they need not perform to in order to achieve promotion, thus they do not. Getting them to understand that the latter notion is an error IS the improvement.


38 posted on 02/14/2012 3:52:24 PM PST by GenXteacher (He that hath no stomach for this fight, let him depart!)
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To: muawiyah
If you are not going to improve, how does doing it over help?

Do you enjoy talking in circles? You're presuming that repeating a grade can't help a student learn the material. I disagree with that presumption.

Do you think the intent of school should be to punish children?

Of course not, the intent is to teach them. Do you think that graduating functional illiterates is the intent of school?

Look, we have more methods available to us today than they did in the good old days so we don't even need schools.

But those methods can't be employed for those students who are repeating a grade? Again, I disagree with your presumption.

You keep asking me if I want social promotions, but that's meaningless in light of the problem with the child who hasn't been already reading for 6 years by the the time he gets to 3rd grade.

I'm not asking if you want social promotions; you've already made it quite clear that you're all for social promotions. What I'm asking you to do is to point out the benefits of social promotions and, so far, you haven't.

You are dealing with a special needs kid ~ and you need to use different methods, not just hit him up side the head with the same old same old.

And you have based your special-needs assessment on what? Again, you're presuming something that isn't necessarily true. The tests don't only determine whether or not a kid can read. They also determine the student's reading proficiency. A third-grader who can't read at all should have been identified, possibly as a special-needs student, well before third grade. A struggling reader, on the other hand, could benefit from reviewing the third grade material before going on to fourth grade.

39 posted on 02/14/2012 3:54:09 PM PST by Bob
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To: GenXteacher
The article's thesis is that the kids "CAN'T PASS" ~ not that they don't want to, or that the schools didn't properly prepare them, or that current systems of teaching reading are deficient in some manner ~ just that the kids "CAN'T PASS".

Retention in and of itself does nothing to address anything.

40 posted on 02/14/2012 4:06:54 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Bob
Bob, what I told the GenXTeacher ~ the article's thesis is this is for kids who "CAN'T PASS" a test.

I view it as little more than a way of identifying future football players to give them an extra year of effective eligibility.

41 posted on 02/14/2012 4:11:16 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
Interesting story........

I've known some kids that just weren't ready to read, do math, swim, tie knots, ride a bike, learn about famous painter's, etc...at their age.

I think we attempt to place round pegs into square holes too much.....

I have some personal experience here....

I think much of it is related to age....

Some older cultures didn't even attempt to teach their children much...until they were older than 8. They were let to be children.......

I'm not sure that wasn't the best way.

I do know...that kids learn differently. Heck, adults learn differently.

FWIW-

42 posted on 02/14/2012 4:21:50 PM PST by Osage Orange (A clear conscience is the sign of a fuzzy memory.)
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To: muawiyah
Bob, what I told the GenXTeacher ~ the article's thesis is this is for kids who "CAN'T PASS" a test.

Again, you're making a presumption that "CAN'T PASS" means "CAN'T READ"; it doesn't.

I view it as little more than a way of identifying future football players to give them an extra year of effective eligibility.

Oh, please. You're talking as if the girls who can't pass are going to go on to play varsity football in high school. Please find yourself another strawman, that one's worn out.

43 posted on 02/14/2012 4:42:26 PM PST by Bob
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To: Bob
Bob, you don't know those states ~ believe me, it's football PLUS one other angle ~ one more insidious. If they spend just one more year buried in grade school, they'll be one year older, and eligible to drop out their Junior year ~ and they'll miss SAT and other exams.

This will raise the local averages for the school system.

44 posted on 02/14/2012 5:20:13 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
Bob, you don't know those states ~ believe me, it's football PLUS one other angle ~ one more insidious. If they spend just one more year buried in grade school, they'll be one year older, and eligible to drop out their Junior year ~ and they'll miss SAT and other exams.

This will raise the local averages for the school system.

Has anyone done any studies into this? I would think that if this were as common a practice as you suggest, that someone would have published an exposé on it.

45 posted on 02/14/2012 5:56:25 PM PST by Bob
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To: Bob

I was thinking of writing a future best-seller on the education circuit called “Raise your SAT’s without effort”.


46 posted on 02/14/2012 5:58:53 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Bob

Regarding studies, it’s simple math. That’s been under development since before reading and writing........ What you might want to deal with is human avarice and how corrupt can you get. This piece http://www.wibc.com/news/story.aspx?ID=1572312 gives you an entry to the life and times of a former superintendent of schools in an Indianapolis suburb who would certainly think of such things. .....Throughout theMidwest school superintendents have remarkable authority ~ and they misuse it at will.


47 posted on 02/14/2012 7:43:43 PM PST by muawiyah
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