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Rick Santorum's 'Involuntary Euthanasia' Claim Outrages Dutch
The International Business ^ | February 20, 2012 | MELANIE JONES

Posted on 02/20/2012 4:56:52 PM PST by BarnacleCenturion

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To: muawiyah
"What we are talking about is how many people are killed by their doctors. "

I agree that's what you are talking about.

But surely you don't believe that's 10% of all deaths in the Netherlands?

151 posted on 02/20/2012 7:27:54 PM PST by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: rwilson99

You think the parents of a 7 month old baby don’t vote.

You think someone who pays the tax bill on 130 grand a year doesn’t vote?

You think doctors don’t vote?

You think their wives don’t vote?

You better think again.


152 posted on 02/20/2012 7:28:51 PM PST by chris37 (Heartless.)
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To: chris37
People who are comfortable with Mitt bother me a lot ~ much of it is their frozen smiles, etched and tattooed in eyebrows and vacant stares.

Last thing we need to run in this election with upwards of 20 million young people undemployed/underemployed/not employed in careers they even remotely trained for is a guy known for consolidating businesses, excessing surplus workers, and produce lean, trim money making machines (after selling off the residual at a deep discount).

They want to hear about creating 19 milion jobs real darned quick. Newt can do that.

153 posted on 02/20/2012 7:28:59 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: napscoordinator

I read that earlier today, naps. It’s happening here too as is so many other abominations. I’m not sure that we are not past the point of no return. Of course the social issues are absolutely critical; satan is devouring our country and it has escalated in the past 3 years. It’s breathtaking actually. I really don’t know how much more God is going to tolerate.


154 posted on 02/20/2012 7:30:01 PM PST by Outlaw Woman (When does the shooting start?)
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To: Houghton M.

These two articles are fairly statistically enlarged... one is a little less recent, but the other is more comprehensive. They seem straightforward, although I don’t think anyone trusts medical research as they once did...

The JAMA has the available extract in pdf available on the right...

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/278/10/817.2.short

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2733179/


155 posted on 02/20/2012 7:30:27 PM PST by true believer forever (Save the Irish Setters - Vote Newt!)
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To: Mariner
Easily! There's a ref on this thread already that points to a more official estimation of 8%, but knowing how the Dutch and their government deal with numbers, I'm beginning to think Santorum low-balled the number.

First of all you should have NO involuntary euthanasia. That's just plain old murder. Second, as a civilized country you should have no euthanasia. You have both.

Make of it what you will, but that's the very definition of a third-world hellhole ~ you go there, visit the doctor, and you're dead.

And you can have one heck of a lot better time partying beforehand in many of those hellholes.

156 posted on 02/20/2012 7:36:09 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Mariner; muawiyah
But surely you don't believe that's 10% of all deaths in the Netherlands?

Yes. From 2009, Sharp Growth in Dutch Euthanasia Deaths


157 posted on 02/20/2012 7:36:40 PM PST by Girlene
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To: rwilson99

Don’t be ridiculous, of course I have. My teenaged cousin’s funeral, who was killed in an automobile accident, was held at his home and it was beautiful. However, between his death and the body preparation at the funeral facility, the family did not take his body home to his brothers to sleep or cuddle with it. Santorum took a 20 week old stillborn from the hospital to their home. Do you understand the rapid decomposition of this infant?


158 posted on 02/20/2012 7:37:17 PM PST by Toespi
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To: TheWriterTX

http://www.newt.org/


159 posted on 02/20/2012 7:47:59 PM PST by Marguerite (When I'm good, I am very, very good. But! When I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: Girlene
Your source references what I consider to be euthanasia and what any reasonable person would consider euthanasia.

Sedation and Dehydration. The way a very large number of the very old die, not only in the Netherlands but in the good old USA too. Just about every terminal cancer patient dies from morphine overdose.

Ask any hospital or hospice nurse.

But it doesn't count for the data point.

160 posted on 02/20/2012 7:48:32 PM PST by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: BarnacleCenturion
Rick Santorum isn't just talking to talk, he had "skin in the game" during the Schiavo incident.

Santorum on Schiavo (March 17, 2005)

Santorum is a cosponsor of legislation that guarantees legal protections for incapacitated persons, like Terri Schiavo. The Incapacitated Person’s Legal Protection Act of 2005, authored by Senator Mel Martinez (R-FL), balances the acknowledged right of a person to refuse consent to medical treatment with the right to consent to treatment to preserve life...

Santorum on Schiavo

161 posted on 02/20/2012 7:49:26 PM PST by madison10
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To: Mariner; muawiyah
And this was from 1990; it has only worsened over the last 20 years. Background about Euthanasia in The Netherlands

It is pitiful.......no wonder the Dutch are outraged.....their shameful practices are making major headlines in the US. They should be mad at the MSM....it's the MSM who post stuff like this from a month ago in an attempt to marginalize Santorum.
162 posted on 02/20/2012 7:50:00 PM PST by Girlene
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To: true believer forever
The "extended deep sedation" without hydration is definitely something we'd consider EUTHANASIA outside the small circle of killer docs in the Low Countries.

You add that number to the admitted number of EUTHANASIA cases and you've got your 10% Fur Shur.

163 posted on 02/20/2012 7:51:01 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Mariner

The Dutch are doing that WITHOUT HYDRATION. That definitely crosses over to murder in virtually every civilized country.


164 posted on 02/20/2012 7:52:47 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Outlaw Woman

That scares me too. Not so much for myself and (absolutely no offense) you but for our children, grandchildren and future generations. I don’t know how much more we can go down the moral sliding board. I feel like an idiot for bashing Perry over debates when he is as moral as Santorum.....the things we get wrong in life. UGH. Anyway, no matter what I just hope that the President will be a million times better than the turd in the White House. As you know, I can be “passionate” when discussing this particular primary but if Newt somehow gets the nomination....you do know he gets my vote. Please at least believe me on that. All the other bullshit (lol) that I spew is over the top but getting rid of the creeper in the White House is no bullshit. Take care FRiend....we are almost over with this primary (well Summer I guess) and I will be back to normal again. :-) Well as normal as I can be.....


165 posted on 02/20/2012 7:54:00 PM PST by napscoordinator (A moral principled Christian with character is the frontrunner! Congrats Santorum!)
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To: Toespi

Acually, the Santorums were following a pretty standard medical-psychologic protocol for dealing with term or close-term stillborns, especially when young at-home children are involved. Every birth has precedent anticipation, joy, excitement. the new baby, before it is born, is talked about, prepared for, in a certain way, loved, as parents try to prepare their children for the new addition.

Coming home from the hospital “empty-handed” would have raised a lot of issues, possibly longterm, dealing with loss, and separation, and closure. This way, the children had a first, fairly healthy experience with a natural death, someone they may not have known, but whom they would separate from... and some of his children may have been at particularly vulnerable ages. The yucky part most people think of is that the baby must have been stiff as a board, blue, etc. But the body is actually prepared with suppling enhancers and lots of chemicals, so it is really more like a baby doll with even a little flexibility. I do salute the Santorums for doing it this way, it was enlightened and courageous, and the children at home, waiting, have a good chance of this being a relatively trauma-free first experience with death. It must have been excruciating for both of the parents.


166 posted on 02/20/2012 7:55:44 PM PST by true believer forever (Save the Irish Setters - Vote Newt!)
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To: Houghton M.

Has it occurred to you to read any of my posts in this thread?

Why don’t you do that, then get back to me when you find the answers to your questions.


167 posted on 02/20/2012 7:56:40 PM PST by chris37 (Heartless.)
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To: muawiyah

Listen, I hear you, but they don’t know any better. They are politically shallow, and they all vote.

I hope they consider Newt, and I hope that they will in fact vote for whomever Obama’s opponent ends up being rather than sitting out in protest.


168 posted on 02/20/2012 7:58:45 PM PST by chris37 (Heartless.)
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To: Mariner

Mariner, I get it....you are a Newt guy. You spend a lot of time showing what you perceive as Santorum’s weaknesses. That’s fine. I like both Newt and Rick....I still wish we had a stronger candidate than either of them, but we don’t.

Fact is, Santorum is right on this one. Netherlands is a mess. What they are doing over there doesn’t even begin to compare with what you just described. This is where we are headed someday with our govt run health care.

Santorum got into this race because of the Health care act. He actually seems to know his stuff on this issue. Whether he becomes president or not, he is opening a lot of eyes as to what we are entering into. For that, I am grateful.


169 posted on 02/20/2012 7:59:23 PM PST by Girlene
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To: BarnacleCenturion

Well I guess the dutch can’t stand the truth.


170 posted on 02/20/2012 8:00:01 PM PST by Aglooka ("I was out numbered 5-to-1, I got 4.")
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To: Mariner

Mariner, I get it....you are a Newt guy. You spend a lot of time showing what you perceive as Santorum’s weaknesses. That’s fine. I like both Newt and Rick....I still wish we had a stronger candidate than either of them, but we don’t.

Fact is, Santorum is right on this one. Netherlands is a mess. What they are doing over there doesn’t even begin to compare with what you just described. This is where we are headed someday with our govt run health care.

Santorum got into this race because of the Health care act. He actually seems to know his stuff on this issue. Whether he becomes president or not, he is opening a lot of eyes as to what we are entering into. For that, I am grateful.


171 posted on 02/20/2012 8:01:46 PM PST by Girlene
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To: Mariner
Your claim is not supported in practice. I don't think you quite understand the use of pain management in terminal cases. To a degree you have a trade off between breathing and unbearable pain. It is possible to misuse painkillers (morphine particularly) to suppress breathing to the point where you die.

Some of us don't fear pain though, so any use of morphine would be to kill us. I have some orders out on that part BTW. No DOPE. But that's just me.

Ethical pain control does not include total suppression of breathing. Unethical pain control would be to sedate someone and then withdraw hydration.

172 posted on 02/20/2012 8:02:11 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: BarnacleCenturion
Let's not forget what happened in New Orleans after Katrina where critically ill patients were allegedly murdered with morphine.
173 posted on 02/20/2012 8:05:38 PM PST by Aglooka ("I was out numbered 5-to-1, I got 4.")
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To: Girlene; Mariner
Santorum had one too many doctors advise him to kill one of his kids. We had that happen too. They just come up with this stuff, or allow their support personnel to do it. It's an harassment of some sort ~ maybe they get their jollies that way.

What it does Fur Shur is eliminate your trust of any doctor anywhere for any purpose. I do my own followup research into scientific papers on anything my doctor tells me.

174 posted on 02/20/2012 8:05:38 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Marguerite

Koninkrijk der Nederlanden ~ is, in short form, “Nederland”.


175 posted on 02/20/2012 8:09:40 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

[Murder is murder ~ most of your garden variety sinners don’t get involved in that ~ maybe you do, but not the rest of us. I don’t kill babies either, nor do I approve of that practice ~ so utterly primitive and barbaric.]

So if that is the case, Santorum should campaign 24/7 against abortion and euthanasia as his only platform element because that far trumps economic reform even as we collapse under the welfare state. And Santorum should make his pronouncements global, he should come out and say he will go to war to stop abortion and euthanasia worldwide, no matter what the cost at home - forget economics. Unlike murderers like me who believe there are limits to what one can do to create a perfect world since none of us are God, you no doubt believe economic issues are meaningless and we should be on a perpetual crusade.

Good luck with winning elections that way.


176 posted on 02/20/2012 8:12:51 PM PST by FastCoyote (I am intolerant of the intolerable.)
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To: napscoordinator

The political season is making all of us crazier than usual; it’s because we all can see how imperative/critical this election is. I too am in fear for my family, my grandbaby etc. but one thing I know beyond any doubt what so ever and that is, God is in charge. We may not be able to see it but it is the assurance of His Word that will sustain us. Believe that and take comfort in the fact that our heavenly Father, in spite of our failings, loves us and will not forsake us.

And I do believe you and it is the same with me. Either Rick or Newt; if either gets the nod, they have my vote. If Romney gets the nod...well that thought is so despicable, I don’t want to cross that bridge unless necessary.

((naps))


177 posted on 02/20/2012 8:13:52 PM PST by Outlaw Woman (When does the shooting start?)
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To: Girlene

It’s not the subject matter, it is how Santorum approaches it, with figures that are dubious, overblown statements, using lots of hot button words, and in essence fear-mongering. Those wrist bands he is talking about, are the equivalent of our DNR tags for terminal patients, some of whom are yet somewhat ambulatory. Do Not Resuscitate if found in cardio or pulmonary extremis, or Do Resuscitate; there is nothing provocative about them, a medical identifier for the chronically and terminally ill - he made it sound like individuals were at risk of being hauled off and euthanized without their consent... and their wrist bands were all that stood between them and being involuntarily offed...it is much more involved than that...

If you go to Newt’s Health Transformations, which has been tackling issues like this for years, especially Alzheimer’s research, and other end-of-life concerns, there is a virtual library of research and thought, by professionals considered experts in the field. In-depth, state-of-the-art medical solutions, and applying them in a conservative fashion... only that is not as flashy or headline grabbing as what Santorum is doing... Newt’s supporters have one basic belief, that eventually the cream rises to the top... and if you’ve done your homework, it will eventually count.

http://www.gingrichgroup.com/


178 posted on 02/20/2012 8:22:36 PM PST by true believer forever (Save the Irish Setters - Vote Newt!)
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To: chris37
So your brother's wife is in favor of killing the helpless.

I hope she does not have your brother's POA.

179 posted on 02/20/2012 8:28:18 PM PST by Harmless Teddy Bear (Would you sing if someone sucked YOU up the vacuum cleaner hose?)
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To: muawiyah
"Santorum had one too many doctors advise him to kill one of his kids."

I think you just nailed it.

180 posted on 02/20/2012 8:31:14 PM PST by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: FastCoyote

Apparently you are unable to MULTITASK. I don’t care for murder and I like high employment figures. Both issues are important.


181 posted on 02/20/2012 8:31:37 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

[Apparently you are unable to MULTITASK. I don’t care for murder and I like high employment figures. Both issues are important.]

Point well taken. Of course that’s not what you implied earlier. So given resources are limited, put a percentage figure on how much time should be devoted to social issues, and how much to economic issues.


182 posted on 02/20/2012 8:37:46 PM PST by FastCoyote (I am intolerant of the intolerable.)
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To: true believer forever

There’s a URL already on this thread about a society in Nederland that issues the ‘wristbands’ to their members to verify they are not in the hospital to be put to death. You should read the article.


183 posted on 02/20/2012 8:39:25 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: FastCoyote
Whatever it takes to win ~ remember, even some Democrats still give a darn.

Not everybody is a superannuated harpy out to get some babies to kill.

184 posted on 02/20/2012 8:41:02 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Marguerite

Good grief.

Picture a President Santorum p!$$!ng off world leaders, one by one.

Now picture President Gingrich recruiting allies who can finally trust America again.


185 posted on 02/20/2012 9:11:49 PM PST by b9 (Newt is substance. The others are talking points)
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To: Harmless Teddy Bear

Yes, she is obviously a vicious, murdering b*cth despite the adorable new born in her arms.


186 posted on 02/20/2012 9:15:23 PM PST by chris37 (Heartless.)
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To: muawiyah

[Whatever it takes to win ~ remember, even some Democrats still give a darn.]

You claimed earlier that I was some kind of murderer for espousing exactly that same prescription. My gut feeling is that Gingrich has a better balance than Santorum for the long haul.


187 posted on 02/20/2012 9:36:51 PM PST by FastCoyote (I am intolerant of the intolerable.)
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To: WorkingClassFilth
Each must vote his or her own way; I respect that.

I was standing up for Santorum because he spoke the truth. The truth is the truth and should be defended.

I've defended Perry in the past, as well, when the smear machine turned against him with half-baked lies and fabrications.

Getting too old to tolerate lies, no matter who's telling them or who they are against.

188 posted on 02/20/2012 10:16:12 PM PST by TheWriterTX (All in now for Newt Gingrich)
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To: FastCoyote

Just a challenge, not a charge.


189 posted on 02/20/2012 11:34:01 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: b9; onyx; caww; Nathan; true believer forever; All

“Picture a President Santorum p!$$!ng off world leaders, one by one.”

Reverend Rick has already p!$$!ed off the Protestants ....

Reverend Rick has already p!$$!ed off Netherlands ....

And it seems that he and Mitt start p!$$!ng off the Jews (me included).

http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbertoni/2012/02/21/billionaire-sheldon-adelson-says-he-might-give-100m-to-newt-gingrich-or-other-republican/

Sheldon Adelson plays as stubbornly in politics as he does in business. So the criticisms that he’s trying to personally buy the presidential election for Newt Gingrich are met with a roll of the eyes. “Those people are either jealous or professional critics,” Adelson tells me during his first interview since he and his wife began funneling $11 million, with another $10 million injection widely expected, into the former speaker’s super PAC, Winning Our Future. “They like to trash other people. It’s unfair that I’ve been treated unfair — but it doesn’t stop me. I might give $10 million or $100 million to Gingrich.”


190 posted on 02/21/2012 2:46:39 AM PST by Marguerite (When I'm good, I am very, very good. But! When I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: muawiyah

Exactly. Just like patients in hospitals here, even hospice, are given wrist bands for DNR/DR. Many of them are, at best, confused; otherwise demented, in advanced Alzheimer’s, or totally physically disabled, with no speech.

To make this somehow into an issue where every old person in a hospital in the Netherlands has to protect themselves with a wrist band, lest they be destroyed by the roving kill-the-old-people machine is really abhorrent. If the culture and the physicians are so eager to, illegally and otherwise, put old people to death, which is the picture being painted, a little wrist band is not going to stop them... Most people find it disingenuous at best...And it is the kind of fables and fiction and images Santorum consistently deals with... and some people love it. Others realize it speaks of something fundamentally unsound in the candidate.

I posted two articles, from two recognized journals of medicine, overflowing with statistics and clinical research, you should read them... All science isn’t bad, even the science that doesn’t support one’s preconceived notions...


191 posted on 02/21/2012 4:13:25 AM PST by true believer forever (Save the Irish Setters - Vote Newt!)
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To: true believer forever
Maybe the wristband does stop them ~ most of them say it does ~ but going to another country would probably be more helpful.

BTW, the DNR (do not resusitate) is supposed to be volutary here ~ but apparently NOT THERE.

The 10% figure turns out to be very correct.

BTW, that should be a 0% figure ~

192 posted on 02/21/2012 5:16:39 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Marguerite
I doubt Santorum would PO the Protestants in America ~ certainly in Nederland but not here. He has their support so far.

I suspect Protestantism in Europe has lost its direction.

193 posted on 02/21/2012 5:17:49 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

It’s NOT correct. Did you read the research studies I posted, or even glance at them? I have learned the hard way it doesn’t pay to argue with or try to show a Santorum supporter facts... so have it your way... fine with me.


194 posted on 02/21/2012 5:40:05 AM PST by true believer forever (Save the Irish Setters - Vote Newt!)
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To: muawiyah
"I doubt Santorum would PO the Protestants in America"

On today’s Up with Chris Hayes, the host unveiled a 2008 talk by Rick Santorum.

The speech is from a 2008 event at Ave Maria College in Florida, where Santorum notes that America was founded upon a Christian philosophy but “the Judeo-Christian ethic was a Protestant one.” “We look at the shape of mainline protestantism in this country and it is in shambles, it is gone from the world of Christianity as I see it”

http://video.msnbc.msn.com/up-with-chris-hayes/46438704#46438704

195 posted on 02/21/2012 6:05:34 AM PST by Marguerite (When I'm good, I am very, very good. But! When I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: muawiyah; onyx; b9; true believer forever; caww
Before Santorum pursues his campaign for the GOP presidential, he should take the time and actually read and digest what is written black on white in the Constitution of the United States of America:

Article Six:

The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

The actual crusade he's fighting based on his own religious beliefs it is antonymous to the US Constitution, meaning unconstitutional.

196 posted on 02/21/2012 6:16:44 AM PST by Marguerite (When I'm good, I am very, very good. But! When I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: Marguerite; muawiyah; onyx; b9; true believer forever; caww
...but no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.

The actual crusade he's fighting based on his own religious beliefs it is antonymous to the US Constitution, meaning unconstitutional.


And you're not deeply embarrassed to utter such a non sequitur?
197 posted on 02/21/2012 6:20:23 AM PST by aruanan
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To: aruanan

Nowhere in the US Constitution is written that the president have to be Catholic or Christian for that matter. Santorum points are irrelevant as far as the religious trend is concerned.

Gingrich, who is also Catholic, claims the right way to put out any controversy: the respect of the Constitution and its First Amendment and Sixth Article.

“Congress shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion, or PROHIBITING the free exercise thereof ....”

Article VI

“NO RELIGIOUS Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.”

Period.


198 posted on 02/21/2012 6:30:00 AM PST by Marguerite (When I'm good, I am very, very good. But! When I'm bad, I'm even better)
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To: Marguerite
Marguerite, a little history is in order. The state of Pennsylvania prohibited anyone but Quakers (Camisards) from running for public office.

The purpose of this clause was to PREVENT Pennsylvania from restricting the rights of non-Quakers.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with any candidate's own religious beliefs. He is free to say anything he wants about his own religion or his morals. The government, however, may not restrict him from running for or holding office on account of his religion.

Now about that extraordinarily high murder rate you folks have ~ GAD!

199 posted on 02/21/2012 6:52:32 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: Marguerite
Another piece of history ~ in the vicinity of Philadelphia, a very large city in Pennsylvania, there is a bit of railroad track called "the Mainline". Philadelphia's rich and powerful people lived along the Mainline and commuted back and forth from the brokerages and industries located in the city.

These people tended to belong to a fixed group of Protestant, or allegedly Protestant churches ~ the Episcopaleans, Dutch Reformed, Presbyterians, that sort. Old money, old families, old everything. Your more ordinary people were Baptists, Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans and so on. They didn't live along the Mainline.

It's the term "Mainline", not "Protestant" that's operative in that particular statement, and it is very true that the Mainline churches which were owned and operated by the very rich are in serious trouble. They're being taken over by homosexuals and non-Christians. Those who can, escape to other up and coming denominations, or even into the Catholic church.

Doesn't PO me at all to hear Santorum criticize the MAINLINE ~ they deserve it. They no longer hold the Mandate of Heaven ~ that's moved on to other more worthy Christians.

BTW, your understanding of American cultural history is just horrid. You could pick up any number of standard textbooks used in universities and get over this. Find one that has MAINLINE in the index, and check and see if that refers to religious bodies or heroin. Big difference eh! But it's a clue.

200 posted on 02/21/2012 7:02:04 AM PST by muawiyah
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