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Proposed law would allow silencers on hunting rifles
verdenews.com ^ | 29 February, 2012 | Howard Fischer

Posted on 03/01/2012 4:01:23 AM PST by marktwain

PHOENIX -- Arizonans may soon be able to hunt quieter.

Legislation approved Tuesday by the state House would repeal laws that now prohibit hunters from using any sort of silencer or muffler on their weapons. HB 2728 also would specifically bar the state Game and Fish Commission from imposing any bans of its own.

The 42-14 vote came over the objections of Rep. Russ Jones, R-Yuma, who said it flies in the face of public safety concerns.

"If I have a silencer on a rifle or pistol, I can shoot it off in my backyard and my neighbor won't know about it, even though (firing near a residence) is prohibited by law,' he said. And Jones, who is a hunter, said the devices make no sense even out in the field.

"If I hear other firearms, I'm able to know there is other activity, other hunters in the area,' he said. "With suppressors, you wouldn't know that.'

But Rep. David Gowan, R-Sierra Vista, who crafted the measure, said there are legitimate reasons for hunters to use noise suppressors.

He said weapons with lower recoil are more accurate. Gowan also said that lower recoil means a constituent, a wounded veteran with an artificial shoulder, will be able to go hunting.

Gowan also rejected Jones' arguments that having people firing weapons that others cannot hear can be dangerous.

"I don't understand what he's talking about,' he said, saying that the attachments do not totally silence the sound.

"You can still hear it,' Gowan explained. "It's just the decibels aren't enough to damage your eardrums.'

Nor did he believe that it is bad for hunters not to know others may be nearby.

"If you know it's hunting land, it's hunting land.'

Rep. Ruben Gallego, D-Phoenix, said he's not worried because a hunter needs federal approval before being allowed to purchase a silencer.

Thomas Mangan, spokesman for the federla Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said would-be buyers have to go through a more-intensive screening than what is required simply to purchase a weapon. That involves an application and fingerprints as well as approval of the head of the local law enforcement agency.

The bill now goes to the Senate.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; US: Arizona
KEYWORDS: az; banglist; hunting; silencer
The legal suppression of firearms mufflers has been one of the worst public health disasters of the last 80 years. Millions of people have lost hearing because of the legal impediments to owning simple and cheap mufflers for firearms.

Much of the legal push to close down ranges would be reduced if suppressors were cheap and easy to get, as they are in many european nations.

1 posted on 03/01/2012 4:01:38 AM PST by marktwain
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; wku man; SLB; ...
Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!
2 posted on 03/01/2012 4:04:08 AM PST by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: marktwain
None of the legislators quoted has a clue.

Recoil? Really?

3 posted on 03/01/2012 4:10:55 AM PST by NY.SS-Bar9
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To: marktwain

Pretty sure muffler/silencer laws are Federal. States cannot
usurp Federal law. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.


4 posted on 03/01/2012 4:14:46 AM PST by Fireone (Gingrich/West 2012. (did I mention FUBO?))
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To: marktwain

“If I have a silencer on a rifle or pistol, I can shoot it off in my backyard and my neighbor won’t know about it

When I was a kid (a long time ago) I lived next door to a gentleman with a huge collection of guns. One he showed me was an English made .22 rifle with a foot long suppressor on it. Needless to say we didn’t have squirrel issues in our neighborhood.


5 posted on 03/01/2012 4:15:49 AM PST by Recon Dad (Gas & Petroleum Junkie)
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To: Fireone

What the law allows is that IF you have a federal-registered silencer, THEN you may use it on your hunting rifle. You still have to jump through the hoops to get BATF approval for possession.


6 posted on 03/01/2012 4:23:02 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
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To: Joe Brower
Already legal in Arkansas. I hunt squirrel bushy tailed tree rats with a John Norrell select-fire trigger pack with one of his suppressors. Needless to say, we have a blast, esp. since Ruger is now making normal capacity magazines again.
7 posted on 03/01/2012 4:23:39 AM PST by DCBryan1 (Id rather have a man who wrecked his marriage as POTUS than a man who wrecked his country!)
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To: DCBryan1

I heard that a silencer only drops the sound 15% is that accurate?


8 posted on 03/01/2012 4:25:42 AM PST by q_an_a (the more laws the less justice)
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To: Recon Dad

This is the stupidest law I’ve ever heard of. I’ve been a hunter all of my life and when I’m in the woods I certainly want to be able to hear shots around me. First - I will know someone is in that direction and won’t go that way. Second- I have gotten many a deer that someone else has shot at and missed and shoved them my way - I’m ready for it to come running over a ridge. Third - I want to KNOW if someone is illegally hunting on MY property. I have had no problem at all calling Fish and Game and having illegal hunters arrested while trespassing on my property and I will continue to do so.


9 posted on 03/01/2012 4:28:10 AM PST by conservaterian (Sarah/DeMint '12-XXX= Now what? Cain?XX Guess not. I GIVE UP)
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To: q_an_a

I have a silencer on my CZ75b. It’s still pretty loud, very much like a nail gun, but that sharp ballistic crack is gone.


10 posted on 03/01/2012 4:34:11 AM PST by Doctor 2Brains (If the government were Paris Hilton, it could not score a free drink in a bar full of lonely sailors)
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To: q_an_a

I am not familiar with that claim but offer antedotal evidence.

Silencer I ‘ve heard on You Tube just make a bigger gun sound like a smaller gun.

But on one of the gun shows featuring ranking sniper rifles, the M110 sounded like the movie PPPPPPPPPPPPFFFFFFFFFTTt.


11 posted on 03/01/2012 4:35:44 AM PST by School of Rational Thought
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To: PapaBear3625

Thanks for the clarification!


12 posted on 03/01/2012 4:36:43 AM PST by Fireone (Gingrich/West 2012. (did I mention FUBO?))
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To: marktwain
I remember a number of years ago a local television babe was discussing the issue of flash suppressors on rifles. In her report she actually said that the suppressors allowed someone to shoot their rifle in the dark without it being seen......

And another reporter named Bill Proctor was reporting on a shooting in Detroit and he actually said "police are looking for a .357 Smith & Wesson Glock Pistol"

13 posted on 03/01/2012 4:43:48 AM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: Fireone

Pretty sure muffler/silencer laws are Federal. States cannot
usurp Federal law. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.

States should and had better be in the business of usurping Federal law, or ultimately they will be buried by it. Federal law is not the end all and be all. Now if it is the Constitution of the United States or the Declaration of independence, I’ve got no issue, but law in and of itself is another story. Just take one example, “shall NOT be infringed”. Ok two examples, how about Roe v Wade, a law unto itself, created out of thin air, very thin air.


14 posted on 03/01/2012 4:47:36 AM PST by wita
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To: Hot Tabasco

15 posted on 03/01/2012 4:50:31 AM PST by andy58-in-nh (America does not need to be organized: it needs to be liberated.)
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To: NY.SS-Bar9
*** None of the legislators quoted has a clue. ... Recoil? Really? ***

I know I shock my head at that too. Then I thought a second about the Physics involved and *think* I know where he *may* be coming from.

As we know a 'silencer' acts by capturing some of the gases in the barrel, lessening the report we hear at the end of a 'silenced barrel' after a round is discharged. Which brings us to Newton's Third Law of Motion:

For every action there's an equal and opposite reaction.
Ergo, if some gas is captured, and less leaves the barrel due to the silencer -- The Recoil at the butt end would be less as there's less gas to create that opposite reaction.

This *may* be what he was thinking -- and he's 100% wrong as an AK, AR, SKS, etc. use 'captured gases' to operate. And an AK's 7.62x39 sure does have a bit of a recoil. Not to mention the 7.62x51mm AR-10.

But hey, give him props for thinking. That's more than most pols do when proposing laws.

Plus Ive read silencers screw up the accuracy, there's no rifling, so much for hunting use. As to accuracy at close range I'd have to ask my friend 'Big Vinny' Gambone ;-)

I found out about Newton's Third Law of Motion when I was about seven. We had just learned about it in Elem School and we were also painting the living room. For 'fun' I jumped off the ladder, forward onto our couch. The ladder went in the opposite direction -- right through our window, and it was winter. I soon met my old friend, 'Mr Belt'. (Dam you Issac Newton!)

16 posted on 03/01/2012 4:54:34 AM PST by Condor51 (Yo Hoffa, so you want to 'take out conservatives'. Well okay Jr - I'm your Huckleberry)
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To: q_an_a
I heard that a silencer only drops the sound 15% is that accurate?

NOT ACCURATE:
See: Silencer Review.com

17 posted on 03/01/2012 4:55:37 AM PST by DCBryan1 (Id rather have a man who wrecked his marriage as POTUS than a man who wrecked his country!)
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To: marktwain
Subsonic (less than 1100 feet per second,approximately) ammunition, can theoretically be silenced completely, other than the action of the mechanical parts, as in a semi-auto. It strictly depends on the efficiency of the silencer design.

As for less recoil, the only way I can think of doing that with a silencer, is by directionally controlling the gases as they make their way through the silencer, like compensation ports.
18 posted on 03/01/2012 5:05:08 AM PST by ZX12R (FUBO GTFO 2012 ! We should take off and Newt washington from orbit.)
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To: Hot Tabasco
In her report she actually said that the suppressors allowed someone to shoot their rifle in the dark without it being seen......

A silencer works by capturing much of the gas volume, redirecting it, and cooling it. As such, it seems that it would also reduce visible muzzle flash.

19 posted on 03/01/2012 5:10:01 AM PST by PapaBear3625 (In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell)
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To: marktwain

The Constitution is silent on the question of ducks.


20 posted on 03/01/2012 5:11:17 AM PST by Haiku Guy ("The problem with Internet Quotes is that you never know if they are real" -- Abraham Lincoln)
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To: marktwain

It’s obvious. The government wants gunowners to go deaf so they can’t listen to talk radio.


21 posted on 03/01/2012 5:15:42 AM PST by Hugin ("Most time a man'll tell you his bad intentions if you listen and let yourself hear"--Open Range)
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To: Haiku Guy
Silence speaks volumes
for those of keen intellect
and discerning eye.
22 posted on 03/01/2012 5:20:53 AM PST by Hugin ("Most time a man'll tell you his bad intentions if you listen and let yourself hear"--Open Range)
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To: q_an_a
I heard that a silencer only drops the sound 15% is that accurate?

No, not really. It depends entirely on the caliber, the ammo and the suppressor. Some pistols, like 22's, will suppress very nicely. Big rifles are very hard to suppress, but can be brought down to levels that make them harder to identify -as- a gunshot. I have a suppressor on a Ruger mk iii 22, and it makes it very, very quiet. Like a hand clap. I also have a suppressor on a Kimber .45, and it is still a loud thump, but it does take the extreme top off, and more than just 15%. Maybe half. It's enough that I have no discomfort firing it indoors without hearing protection. And the bit about lowering recoil? Well... sure, anything that adds weight to the barrel is going to contribute to less muzzle rise and somewhat less recoil, but I'm not sure that on a hunting rifle it would even be noticeable. It's not a muzzle brake. It probably helps more on my 22 Ruger, but then it doesn't have much recoil to start with.

23 posted on 03/01/2012 5:25:53 AM PST by Ramius (Personally, I give us one chance in three. More tea anyone?)
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To: NY.SS-Bar9

A suppressor weighs one to two pounds. Heavier rifle, less recoil.

A supersonic round sounds like you unhook an air hose and get that compressed gas release. The bullet goes along cracking the sound barrier as usual. A subsonic round makes bullet noise depending upon it’s shape. Get the shape right and it is only a low hum, barely audible and not identifiable.


24 posted on 03/01/2012 5:30:22 AM PST by eartrumpet
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To: Condor51; All
Suppressors reduce recoil because they lower the velocity of gases coming out the end of the barrel. Mr. Gowan only said that they reduced recoil, not eliminate it.

Accuracy is often increased, perhaps because there is less possibilty of bullet upset as it leaves the muzzle.

There is a lot of good information on silencer use on the interenet, and plenty of bad information as well.

25 posted on 03/01/2012 5:38:07 AM PST by marktwain
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To: conservaterian

Are you against bowhunting as well?


26 posted on 03/01/2012 5:40:51 AM PST by marktwain
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To: Hugin

The Constitution
Has always been silent on
The question of Ducks


27 posted on 03/01/2012 5:46:00 AM PST by Haiku Guy ("The problem with Internet Quotes is that you never know if they are real" -- Abraham Lincoln)
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To: DCBryan1

Thanks for that link. Saved it to my favorites.
I was hoping to get a silencer for all of my pistols someday.
Hating the bureaucracy, though.


28 posted on 03/01/2012 5:51:13 AM PST by RandallFlagg (Look for the union label, then buy elsewhere.)
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To: marktwain
Ahh. So Mr Newton's 3rd Law does come into effect.
(I had that written then edited my post a couple times and wound up with the Riles using captured gases like a suppressor thing).

The increased accuracy thing is interesting. Never having used one I was 'naturally' thinking homemade, gangster type 'silencer', not Professionally made, like with rifling.

And I think we all know any suppressor doesn't eliminate all the sound. Except for Dem Pols and the MSM, that is :-)

Like the 'all plastic' Glock not being seen by Airport scanners. That misinformation came from a line in a Bruce Willis movie and the Dems and MSM ran with it.
That info was just on Glenn Beck's GBTV last week)

29 posted on 03/01/2012 6:00:14 AM PST by Condor51 (Yo Hoffa, so you want to 'take out conservatives'. Well okay Jr - I'm your Huckleberry)
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To: marktwain

“...weapons with lower recoil are more accurate.”

False.


30 posted on 03/01/2012 6:14:26 AM PST by KingLudd
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To: RandallFlagg
I was hoping to get a silencer for all of my pistols someday.

Start with a .22 LR.

Get a suppressor for every caliber, just have your extra barrells threaded to accept that caliber-specific suppressor. You don't have to buy a suppressor for every pistol you have unless you have lots of time and dough.

ATF NFA branch backlog for me is 6 months

31 posted on 03/01/2012 6:15:31 AM PST by DCBryan1 (Id rather have a man who wrecked his marriage as POTUS than a man who wrecked his country!)
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To: marktwain

There is a lot of good information on silencer use on the internet, and plenty of bad information as well.


A lot of the bad info invariably is posted with supreme confidence on these freeper threads.


32 posted on 03/01/2012 7:18:42 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed (Author of BullionBible.com - Makes You a Precious Metal Expert, Guaranteed.)
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To: Beelzebubba
A lot of the bad info invariably is posted with supreme confidence on these freeper threads.

OMG!

Please say it isn't so!

33 posted on 03/01/2012 7:31:04 AM PST by going hot (Happiness is a momma deuce)
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To: DCBryan1

I’m developing a good relationship with a dealer in my area. I’m hoping he can walk me through this whole thing.
(Still floored from the news about Breitbart here)


34 posted on 03/01/2012 7:34:56 AM PST by RandallFlagg (Look for the union label, then buy elsewhere.)
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To: Fireone

It is part of the 1968 gun law. That is federal gun law.


35 posted on 03/01/2012 7:35:52 AM PST by org.whodat
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To: RandallFlagg

I was hoping to get a silencer for all of my pistols someday.


Consider having common threads, or adapters so several can use a single “can.” Also, a .45 suppressor can do a decent job on a 9mm.

Don’t use a .22LR can for a 223 rifle, because while the bullet will pass the baffles fine, the can will blow up due to lighter constriction and reduced volume.


36 posted on 03/01/2012 8:02:34 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed (Author of BullionBible.com - Makes You a Precious Metal Expert, Guaranteed.)
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To: Condor51
Accelerating the mass of the projectile creates almost all of the recoil. A smaller component relates to the gasses ejected behind the round and can be mitigated by using a muzzle brake. A silencer would do almost nothing to control recoil.

Hunters do not wear hearing protection in the field and are exposed to damaging sound levels when they shoot. That is the real reason to allow silencers.

37 posted on 03/01/2012 8:28:00 AM PST by NY.SS-Bar9
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To: PapaBear3625
A silencer works by capturing much of the gas volume, redirecting it, and cooling it

My comment was about flash suppressors. All they do is channel the muzzle flash dowwnwards so as to help prevent the shooter's eyes from being briefly affected by the flash while shooting in the dark.....

38 posted on 03/01/2012 8:58:31 AM PST by Hot Tabasco (The only solution to this primary is a shoot out! Last person standing picks the candidate)
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To: NY.SS-Bar9; All
NY.SS-Bar9 posted:

“Accelerating the mass of the projectile creates almost all of the recoil. A smaller component relates to the gasses ejected behind the round and can be mitigated by using a muzzle brake. A silencer would do almost nothing to control recoil.”

From the Wikikpedia article:

“Suppressors reduce firing recoil significantly, primarily by diverting and trapping the propellant gas. Propellant gas is generally a fraction of the projectile mass, but it exits the muzzle at multiples of the projectile velocity, and since recoil energy is a function of mass times velocity squared the elimination of the propellant recoil can be significant. Paulson et al., discussing low-velocity pistol calibers, suggest the recoil reduction is around 15%.[2] With high-velocity calibers recoil reduction runs in the range of 20–30%.[20] The added weight of the suppressor—normally 300 to 500 grams—also contributes to the reduction of the recoil. Further, the pressure against the face of each baffle is higher than the pressure on its reverse side, making each baffle a miniature “pneumatic ram” which pulls the suppressor forward on the weapon, contributing a counter recoil force.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressor

39 posted on 03/01/2012 9:03:52 AM PST by marktwain
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To: Fireone
Pretty sure muffler/silencer laws are Federal. States cannot usurp Federal law. I could be wrong, but I don’t think so.

Sure they can. The FEDS regulate sale and possession. States regulate aplication. In Idaho, it's legal to hunt with a suppressor. But you still have to comply with Federal NFA rules and do the Form 4 and pay your $200 for the tax stamp, etc. In Florida my gunsmith/FFL dealer informs me of something I'd not been previously aware: If I'm carrying my EDC concealed, I can not also carry my lawfully owned suppressor for the same weapon. But I can screw it on and use it to quietly and permanently "suppress" an intruder in my home.

40 posted on 03/01/2012 10:18:33 AM PST by ExSoldier (Stand up and be counted... OR LINE UP AND BE NUMBERED...)
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To: marktwain
Are you against bowhunting as well?
If you don't understand the safety concerns of bowhunting versus hunting with a rifle then please don't be anywhere near where I am hunting. I have taught hunter safety for 25 years, you??
41 posted on 03/01/2012 10:34:10 AM PST by conservaterian (Sarah/DeMint '12-XXX= Now what? Cain?XX Guess not. I GIVE UP)
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To: PapaBear3625

There are some hoops to navigate,and you have to really want one. There is also a tax stamp for $200 or more now.

I’ve looked into this an am going to get one, but I still haven’t found the fine print that gives the ATF the right to ‘inspect’ your home and gun holdings.....I’m reasonably certain it is there.


42 posted on 03/01/2012 10:37:21 AM PST by Gaffer
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To: conservaterian

As a fellow hunter - I’m with you. Hearing gunfire in the field is necessary.


43 posted on 03/01/2012 7:21:25 PM PST by Last Dakotan
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To: marktwain
Much of the legal push to close down ranges would be reduced if suppressors were cheap and easy to get, as they are in many european nations.

Which is the biggest reason why these devices will continue to be regulated the way they have been for the past several decades. How can you peacefully disarm the populace over time if it is cheap to shoot and there are ranges all over the place?

44 posted on 03/02/2012 11:31:29 AM PST by Ancesthntr (Bibi to Odumbo: Its not going to happen.)
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To: Ramius

thanks for your remarks and personal knowledge


45 posted on 03/02/2012 2:14:36 PM PST by q_an_a (the more laws the less justice)
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