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Man shot by Washington County tactical officers was armed, thought intruder was on his property,
oregonlive.com ^ | 14 March, 2012 | Maxine Bernstein

Posted on 03/15/2012 10:14:05 AM PDT by marktwain

The man shot by Washington County tactical officers in New Columbia Tuesday night had grabbed a gun because he thought intruders were on his property after his wife had checked on their barking dog in their backyard and saw a stranger in dark clothing.

Alberto Flores-Haro, according to relatives and witnesses, did not know that the men surrounding his home and neighborhood Tuesday night were authorities approaching to raid a residence just a few doors down from his home in the 9500 block of North Woolsey Avenue.

"There was someone in our backyard, and my mom called our stepdad," said Daniel Ibarra. "He told me to go upstairs and get the gun."

Ibarra, 17, said he didn't know where it was, and Flores-Haro followed him up the stairs and retrieved it. Ibarra said a stranger came through the home, and left through the front door.

Neighbor Juan Soto Martinez, 16, who lives across a walkway from Flores-Haro's home, said he heard Flores at his front door yelling with a man, who seemed to be outside, on the side of his house. Then, he heard multiple gunshots.

Ibarra found his stepdad collapsed in the front doorway of their home, shot in one arm and twice in the stomach, and called 9-1-1 about 10 p.m.

" I grabbed a rag and put pressure on his forearm," Ibarra recalled, and told his mother to grab a towel from the kitchen and place pressure on Flores' torso wounds.

GS.51SHOT115-02.jpgView full size Ibarra said his family had no idea that the men surrounding their home in tactical uniforms of army green were from the Washington County Sheriff's Office's Tactical Negotiation Team, who were assisting police.

He said of his dad, "I think he just wanted to scare them away. He didn't know who they were."

While his father lay bleeding, Ibarra said he was ordered out of the house.

"Once I stepped outside, I was ordered to get on the ground," said Ibarra, a Roosevelt High School senior.

He said the rest of his family, his mother and four other children from ages 5 and 13, were ordered to get out of the house, and then tactical officers grabbed his stepdad and carried him to a waiting ambulance.

Flores-Haro, 31, remains in serious condition at Legacy Emanuel Medical Center.

In a release this afternoon, Portland police said three members of the Washington County Tactical Negotiations Team were involved in the shooting: one Hillsboro police officer and two Washington County Sheriff's deputies.

While Sgt. Pete Simpson said early today "there was an exchange of gunfire,'' police said later this afternoon that detectives have not determined if Flores-Haro fired any shots at police. Police also said that the officers "repeatedly identified themselves as law enforcement officers.''

"Preliminary information released at the scene was than an exchange of gunfire occurred. However, detectives have been searching for shell casings at the scene, which is lined by a heavily wood area. A handgun was recovered at the scene, but detectives have not determined if the man shot at police.''

Mayor Sam Adams also released a statement: "The City takes incidents such as this very seriously. As with any officer-involved shooting, there will be a thorough investigation and we will make sure every element is examined.''

This morning, Portland police have said only that the man shot by officers had approached police with a handgun as officers were getting ready to serve a search warrant at a nearby, unrelated location.

Simpson said this morning that as police prepared to approach an apartment to execute a search warrant that a man from a nearby apartment emerged with a handgun. Simpson did not know if the man fired first or how many shots officers fired. He said only that "there was an exchange of gunfire." No officer was shot.

Police later in the night did serve a search warrant at a home just doors down from Flores' house on North Woolsey Avenue, and arrested Anthony Bagsby, 20, and Cocoa Tapli, 16, who face accusations of attempted aggravated murder in connection with a Sunday night gang-related shooting and robbery on North Woolsey Avenue.

Portland Lt. Robert King declined to release any more details on the officer-involved shooting. He declined to release the name of the man shot, or explain why police were withholding the name. King also declined to answer whether the tactical officers had identified themselves as police outside Flores' home.

Portland had a mobile command center set up at the site through the night, and left about 10 a.m. today.

Many residents in the neighborhood said they got little sleep after they heard the gunshots. Some reported hearing between four and five, others said six or seven.

Martinez, who lives across from Flores' home, said he was watching TV in his living room, and caring for his younger brothers and sisters because their mom wasn't home at the time.

"I heard like four or five shots," Martinez said. When he looked out his window, "Alberto was laying in the front of his home, bleeding."

Martinez said he told his younger siblings to "get down," and then took them to an upstairs bathroom.

Residents in the area described Flores as a family man and a good neighbor, who worked loading trucks. They described him as in his 30s.

"He's a good neighbor," said Maria Bosyuk, who lives next door to Flores. She said her children heard the shooting and couldn't sleep.

"It sounded like three, then three more" shots, said Michelle Clopton, who lives on North Woolsey Avenue.

As she went to call 9-1-1, she heard police shouting commands to someone on a megaphone."The cops were on a loud speaker, saying 'Come out with your hands up!' Clopton said, who kept peeking out her window.

Another resident who asked not to be named said she was lying in bed when she heard six to seven gunshots. "I grabbed my phone to call police and noticed they were already all outside," she said.

scenephoto.jpgView full sizeMaxine Bernstein/The OregonianHome where Alberto Flores-Haro was shot, pictured far right. Building in foreground is location where tactical officers were readying to raid with a search warrant last night. She said the police orders via megaphone came much later, at least an hour or so: "Come out of the house! Do it now!"

An officer instructed her to stay in the back of her house, she said, and she was worried about the many children in the neighborhood.

"I was sitting in my living room and heard a lot of shots," said Dorine Nafziger, a North Woolsey Avenue resident who lives with her husband and 3-year-old son.

She and her husband went upstairs and looked out their back window.

"We saw the big SWAT tank and a lot of officers in army green suits, helmets and shields," Nafziger said.

She got on Facebook to share information with other neighbors to figure out what was going on. At one point , she said she saw police lead five people from a home in handcuffs.

"It freaks us out," Nafziger said. "It's not the first time something like this has happened in our neighborhood." Sonja Andreas said the gunshots came in what she described as two staccato explosions. Then she said, she heard a lot of yelling and screaming.

She called 9-1-1 and said she was told, "Don't worry, there's a police action happening right now."

But Andreas said she didn't see the usual marked police cars, but a large armored vehicle, and men in what looked like military-type garb.

Tactical teams from Portland, Washington and Clackamas counties routinely rely on each other. Simpson said officers on these teams train with each other and are "fairly interchangeable." Washington County's tactical team is comprised of officers from multiple police agencies and was assisting Portland police last night as Portland's tactical team was in training.

Simpson did not know how many officers fired on the suspect or which agencies they represent.

--Maxine Bernstein


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; Government; News/Current Events; US: Oregon
KEYWORDS: banglist; cwiiping; donutwatch; govtabuse; home; jbt; militarizedpolice; or; oregon; policestate; rapeofliberty; swat; tyranny; waronliberty
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To: marktwain
When a law enforcement fuster cluck occurs it always ends in citizens getting killed or injured and by militarizing the country's local law enforcement agencies only serves to raise testosterone levels of the little tin god minded officers. These guys qualify to be BATF agents.
51 posted on 03/15/2012 11:24:53 AM PDT by drypowder
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To: AlmaKing
More War on Drugs casualties.

Er, more war on murderers, not everything is about drugs, unless your addicted.

52 posted on 03/15/2012 11:28:18 AM PDT by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: SpaceBar

Yes, he was!


53 posted on 03/15/2012 11:36:23 AM PDT by 556x45
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To: Tublecane; Squantos; CodeToad; Eaker; Lurker; Dead Corpse; Lazamataz; hiredhand
I wonder firstly why they need help from a Super Special Tactical Squad to execute a warrant. Isn’t that what the regular police force is for? Were too many officers tied up at the local speed trap? Was the warrant for Tony Montana?

Because if the SWAT Team is not used nearly every day, its funds will be cut.

Year One, City Manager to Police Chief. "Chief, I see here your SWAT Team cost 11 million last year, and you only were called out 7 times! Geez Chief, that's over a million each time!"

Year Two: "Great work, Chief! I see the SWAT Team was used 347 times last year! Are you sure 11 million dollars is enough?"

More importantly, why were they wandering through random neighboring yards? Some elaborate sort of flanking maneuver? Looking for a quiet place to take a whiz?

Most of the SWAT cops were ex military troops. They learned how to do this in Baghdad, Ramadi and Mosul. "Dominate the battle space!" etc etc etc. Your peaceful, fenced-in backyard may be seen as part of their "avenue of approach with good cover and concealment to the north of the target."

54 posted on 03/15/2012 11:42:31 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Dead Corpse; Joe Brower; Squantos
In most jurisdictions, law enforcement is within its just powers to be on your property if responding to a call for help at your address, are executing a warrant at your address, or if they are following a suspect who they are chasing through your property. There was no warrant here. There was no probable cause. They need to be incarcerated like any other armed intruder would be.

The cops will walk, they won't even lose a day's pay. Judges want the SWATTIEs to remain on a "war footing" and not get "cold feet." Remember the undercover FBI team who shot the face off the Eagle Scout in MD a few years back? Total mistaken identidy snafu, screaming at the innocent kid and his girlfriend to both "FREEZE OR WE'LL SHOOT!" and "GET OUT NOW! OUT NOW!"

This with carbine muzzles leveled at their windshield and windows.

They didn't even get a slap on the wrist.

55 posted on 03/15/2012 11:46:21 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: from occupied ga

I agree 100% with your #41. The cops will walk. No problem at all.

The Overlords need their Enforcers to feel frisky and unhindered by mere legal niceties.


56 posted on 03/15/2012 11:48:28 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: mojitojoe

Yep, time to stock up the escape pod.


57 posted on 03/15/2012 11:51:01 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: marktwain

Trying to reamin fair-minded, and recognizing that this article probably put as much “cops-are-bad-guys” spin as possible; there are still two troubling points that jump out at me:
1)”There was someone in our backyard...” and “Ibarra said a stranger came through the home, and left through the front door” - What the heck? Regardless of the warrant, by what authority does a police officer enter a civilian’s back yard at night, go through the home and leave through the front door? UNLESS - by “our backyard” the kid meant “the backyard of the apartment building” and by “home” he meant “apartment building”. Possible I guess, and if this is a more accurate representation, the reporter should be charged with attemptiong to start a riot - CLARITY should be a reporter’s primary aim.

2) “police said later this afternoon that detectives have not determined if Flores-Haro fired any shots at police” THESE are weasel words. A more accurate statement would be “no evidence has been found to suggest that Flores-Haro...” If they have the gun, they know if it was fired or not. If they have the guy, know if he fired a gun. Evidence of the gun being fired could have been determined by the cordite sniff-test on the spot, no? And with the man in custody, they can do a gun powder residue test in a matter of minutes can’t they? So why have they “...not determined if Flores-Haro fired...”? Becausse they have nothing to suggest that he did, and having nothing, it seems certain that he didn’t.

So here’s my most level-headed, unbiased opinion:
I’m going to guess the guy moved from the apartment building backyard, through the back building entrance, out the building front entrance. (This is the only thing that makes sense without believing that the cops are complete tyrannical dunderheads) The civilian was concerned, armed himself, and verbally confronted the “intruder”. I won’t speculate as to whether or not the police officers clearly identified themselves or not, but it seems very clear to me that the civilian didn’t fire his weapon.


58 posted on 03/15/2012 11:52:06 AM PDT by GilesB
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To: marktwain

This is why the black mask and ninja look for cops is wrong. Any hat or helmet worn should have a star or badge on it. The uniform should not be all black and the top or vest should have POLICE on it in large, bright letters.

Citizens confronted by masked people in black rightly assume these are bad guys and get shot unfairly. Sure the cops yell “police” but often follow it immediately by shooting the citizen. Why serve a warrant in the dark of night?


59 posted on 03/15/2012 11:52:51 AM PDT by RicocheT (Eat the rich only if you're certain it's your last meal)
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To: Theoria
Sometimes, I wonder if it would simply be easier for a SWAT officer to dress up like a pest inspector or electrician and make the arrest under guile instead of the typical siege mentality.

Woulda been easier to arrest David Koresh when he went out for a jog, too, but that wouldn't have been nearly as impressive at the budget hearings.

60 posted on 03/15/2012 11:55:35 AM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: marktwain

This story is plain messed up.

Walked through a guys home?

Repeatedly announced themselves? Sure.

Used unsuspecting man’s property for staging your tactical assault? How riggin Dumb is that?

Only thing right with story is no dogs were harmed.


61 posted on 03/15/2012 12:02:07 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Travis McGee

Do you stock your escape pod to old Forecastle Card scale of provisions:? Among other things, you get 1 oz. of lard and 3/4oz. of green berry coffee per day. You can also get 3oz. of dried fruit on Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday.

Back to the article. I saw this on the news this morning and the police were making it out like ‘we have no idea why this man attacked us’


62 posted on 03/15/2012 12:03:07 PM PDT by Cold Heart
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To: FourPeas

I don’t recall this story is


63 posted on 03/15/2012 12:05:30 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: FourPeas

I don’t recall this story is


64 posted on 03/15/2012 12:06:08 PM PDT by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Cold Heart

Mostly it’s stocked with Captain Morgan.


65 posted on 03/15/2012 12:06:20 PM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: marktwain
As with any officer-involved shooting, there will be a thorough investigation and we will make sure every element is examined.''all involved are fully exonerated.
66 posted on 03/15/2012 12:09:54 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Travis McGee

Captain Morgan?

It’s good to have skilled, experienced crew.


67 posted on 03/15/2012 12:12:29 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: DuncanWaring

Got that right.


68 posted on 03/15/2012 12:15:59 PM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: marktwain
What chaos.

Why go into a neighborhood full of woman, kids and other innocent concerned citizens, when the suspect in question could have been put under surveillance, stopped and arrested/detained when he left the home in question?

Why are we going to war within neighborhoods full of innocent people?

69 posted on 03/15/2012 12:21:55 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Dead Corpse

“Even he thinks LEO’s as a breed have jumped the shark on a lot of this crap...”

Your dad is nobody’s fool.


70 posted on 03/15/2012 12:24:55 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: GilesB
So here’s my most level-headed, unbiased opinion: I’m going to guess the guy moved from the apartment building backyard, through the back building entrance, out the building front entrance. (This is the only thing that makes sense without believing that the cops are complete tyrannical dunderheads)

Only problem this area does not appear to be apartments just closed space houses. Posssibly rental homes but in good condition.

71 posted on 03/15/2012 12:26:20 PM PDT by Ratman83
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To: RicocheT

I agree with you.

Absent unusual circumstances, cops should be dressed as cops, not criminals.

Even if they are dressed as cops is no guarantee tho. I think the killers in the famous St. Valentines Day massacre were dressed as cops.


72 posted on 03/15/2012 12:33:14 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: yarddog
I think the killers in the famous St. Valentines Day massacre were dressed as cops.

Then there was the guy that shot Barzini in The Godfather.

73 posted on 03/15/2012 12:34:23 PM PDT by dfwgator (Don't wake up in a roadside ditch. Get rid of Romney.)
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To: Ratman83

Satellite Photo available if you follow this link:

http://mapq.st/AtoIEx


74 posted on 03/15/2012 12:34:45 PM PDT by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: mojitojoe; Travis McGee

“A place like Castigo Cay is looking better and better.”

It looked good BEFORE this thread : )


75 posted on 03/15/2012 12:36:59 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: marktwain

G__ damned gestapo tactics again...innocent man gets shotby cops and no one will be held acountable...BS...I am getting sick of hearing these stories about cops shooting people defending their right to defend themselves.


76 posted on 03/15/2012 12:38:10 PM PDT by Magnum44 (Terrorism is a disease, precise application of superior firepower is the cure)
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To: DuncanWaring

I look already, looks like houses. Some have unattached garages. Just small lots.


77 posted on 03/15/2012 12:40:00 PM PDT by Ratman83
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To: Joe Brower
I'd have to read the article again...but I thought I read that this was an apartment.

Did I misread that?

78 posted on 03/15/2012 12:46:58 PM PDT by Osage Orange (The MSM is the most dangerous entity in the United States of America.)
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To: mojitojoe
A place like Castigo Cay is looking better and better.

It's located right next to Galt's Gulch. One of these days, those morons are going to mess with a combat veteran, highly skilled in close quarters combat.

79 posted on 03/15/2012 12:50:06 PM PDT by SVTCobra03 (You can never have enough friends, horsepower or ammunition.)
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To: American in Israel
Er, more war on murderers, not everything is about drugs

Not in this case. It wasn't even murder, but "attempted murder" in regards to the suspect, not the law abiding citizen they nearly shot to death.

BTW, if ya eliminated this moronic, costly WOD, you'd have hundreds of thousands of cops with little to do.

80 posted on 03/15/2012 12:52:19 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Osage Orange

Yes you misread the article referred to home, house and backyard. A look on google maps shows houses w/small lots and unattached and attached garages. It is a close spaced community.


81 posted on 03/15/2012 12:52:23 PM PDT by Ratman83
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To: Gaffer
Those asshole Atlanta Drug Squad LEOs who murdered that old black lady mistakenly invading her home actually went to jail

Not for murder though, only for "violation of oath of office." I don't have time right now to get into the details, but they didn't get anywhere near what should have happened to them

82 posted on 03/15/2012 12:52:44 PM PDT by from occupied ga (Your government is your most dangerous enemy)
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To: Joe Brower
"Simpson said this morning that as police prepared to approach an apartment to execute a search warrant that a man from a nearby apartment emerged with a handgun. Simpson did not know if the man fired first or how many shots officers fired. He said only that "there was an exchange of gunfire." No officer was shot.".........

Of course this piece isn't well written...or probably accurate. We have "accounts" of dogs barking in a yard...( Which would maybe say...and fenced yard..and maybe a home??? ) Or these are chained dogs in a "backyard" of an apartment house??? Some "witnesses" are calling their apartment a "house/home"??, which is not unusual.

OR...the police are changing their stories?? OR...it's just horrible reporting??

I dunno what happened here....and we probably never will.

83 posted on 03/15/2012 12:56:00 PM PDT by Osage Orange (The MSM is the most dangerous entity in the United States of America.)
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To: Joe Brower; harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; wku man; SLB; ...

In June of 2006, the SWAT team, and 4 cops shattered my front door, cuffed me, and put me on the floor. They were looking for the former owner of the house (I had foreclosed on it).

The front door had a vertical window six feet long, so they could see me walking slowly to the door. I was wearing shorts, and no shirt, so they could readily see that I was unarmed.

They ransacked the house, leaving my belongings all over the floor in every room.(I didn’t find this out until later, as I was cuffed and left on the cold floor for 20-30 minutes).

When the dolts finally realized that:

1) The former owner wasn’t there.
2) There were no drugs in the house
3) Ran a background check on me, and I was perfect.

they checked my arms for needle tracks, then asked me if I was hiding the former owner.

I could go on and on. They finally left, tails tucked between their legs. The one female cop(observer) told me “ They could see you through the glass....I don’t understand why they broke in”

6 cop cars.... 10 officersto arrest a 5 foot 7, 130 lb. “Barney Fife”
who no longer lived there. Any half-wit could have done a tiny bit of judicious research, and found that out, but that would have deprived them of all their fun!

I should have sued the SOB’s....I just made them pay for the damage.


84 posted on 03/15/2012 1:02:16 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: marktwain

They just saw Act of Valor and wanted to play “dress up”.

Bunch of wannabe special operators. I’m waiting for these faux operators to try that crap on a real one and see what payback is all about

So stupid it’s baffling. Give me 5 guys, two vans, some comms, and zip ties and you can just about capture any of these punks. Then in a calm manner , turn off water, electricity and jam cell phones and wait the punk’s family or house mates out and search the place. But the junior, mall cop rejects want to wear balaclavas, pretty pretty face paint and pretend they’re special operators.

How ‘bout joining the navy, take some nice swimming lessons off Coronado and EARN the right to be a special operator. Or even something as mundane as what I did. Go to camp Pendleton and get MOS 0326 while playing around in Ft Benning, panama City and Yuma. Hahahahaha. It’s all coming to a head with these militarized local yokels.


85 posted on 03/15/2012 1:02:31 PM PDT by Dick Vomer (democrats are like flies, whatever they don't eat they sh#t on.)
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To: Ratman83

I was basing that off of this passage: “Simpson said this morning that as police prepared to approach an apartment to execute a search warrant that a man from a nearby apartment emerged with a handgun.”

From the pictures of the victim’s house, it doesn’t look like it is a single family residence. Yards aren’t fenced, and are probably communal propert. It looks like an apartment type layout - central sidewalk leading to multiple buildings.

So the cops using the backyard is a little more understandable (but why wouldn’t you let folks know what’s going down in order to avoid something like this?)

What I can’t see is if each of these buildings has a central hallway from front to back with individual apartments off of that hallway (the picture with the car parked by the door seems to say ‘No” - but how did that car get there? Were is it in the other photo?). But that’s the only thing that can avoid the conclusion that at least one LEO was WAY out of line.

One thing I can say with complete confidence - this is a HORRIBLY written story. More clarity, better photos would inform the public. Doesn’t the phrase about the LEO walking through the house just scream for more information? A mildly competent reporter would provide that information, so we aren’t left to speculate how it is that a policeman walks uninvited though somebody’s home. If the LEO did, indeed, walk through the kitchen and living room to get from the back to the front as the story implies - wouldn’t this be the FIRST question even a minimally qualified reporter would ask the police: “What was an officer doing inside that house without invitation or warrant?” This piece seems intended to imflame.


86 posted on 03/15/2012 1:04:03 PM PDT by GilesB
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To: Travis McGee

“While Sgt. Pete Simpson said early today ‘there was an exchange of gunfire,’’ police said later this afternoon that detectives have not determined if Flores-Haro fired any shots at police. Police also said that the officers ‘repeatedly identified themselves as law enforcement officers.’ “

I’m no lawyer, but just claiming to be a police officer doesn’t change the fact that the 4th Amendment was set on fire in this case. Police can’t just run rough shod through someone else’s property because they feel like it.

Would it have killed them to simply ask first ? I mean, after all, the US Military often warns civillians that a bombing raid is on its way. Don’t American citizens deserve the same treatment ?

I’m a “tough on crime” guy and I often donate to help the families of police officers killed in the line of duty, but if the police are wrong in a case, they’re wrong.

Goog ping!

PS-— Thanks for the new wallpaper!


87 posted on 03/15/2012 1:07:16 PM PDT by Absolutely Nobama (NO COMPROMISE! NO RETREAT! NO SURRENDER! I AM A CONSERVATIVE! CASE CLOSED!)
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To: Ratman83
See 83....

I didn't misread the article....but the article really sucks for facts.

Thanks for the map.........

88 posted on 03/15/2012 1:08:02 PM PDT by Osage Orange (The MSM is the most dangerous entity in the United States of America.)
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To: dragnet2

The difference between attempted murder and murder is simply a matter of competence, not intent. I think they should be treated the same - I don’t think the guy who tried to kill someone is less dangerous than the guy who did.


89 posted on 03/15/2012 1:09:16 PM PDT by GilesB
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To: Travis McGee; Joe Brower; Squantos
Agreed. I suffer no illusions that what "should" happen in any way resembles what the eventual outcome will be.

Far too many of these "isolated incidences" going on.

90 posted on 03/15/2012 1:12:26 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: GilesB

Apparently you and I are seeing the same things..........


91 posted on 03/15/2012 1:12:26 PM PDT by Osage Orange (The MSM is the most dangerous entity in the United States of America.)
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To: Osage Orange

You are right the article quoted police as calling them apartments, but the reporter and residents call them houses. A close up view on google shows houses with garages.


92 posted on 03/15/2012 1:16:55 PM PDT by Ratman83
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To: stephenjohnbanker

Really, the way to stop that crap is to make the “searching” (ransacking) officers all return to your home, unarmed and in civilian clothes, to put everything back in order under your supervision. If I were their CO I would suspend them without pay until this was accomplished.

Just ask yourself - if it was the governor’s home, and they had reason enough for a warrant, do you think they would have treated the governor’s belongings the same way?

Even if they KNOW the person is guilty, there is no need to trash a house just to “find evidence”. In fact, such methods most likely destroy more evidence than they discover. They only do it because it displays authority and control over the owner, and because they can.


93 posted on 03/15/2012 1:19:59 PM PDT by GilesB
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To: Travis McGee
in tactical uniforms of army green were from the Washington County Sheriff's Office's Tactical Negotiation Team, who were assisting police.

I suppose gunning a citizen down on his own property could be considered negotiation, on some planet, somewhere.

94 posted on 03/15/2012 1:22:01 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: GilesB
The difference between attempted murder and murder is simply a matter of competence, not intent. I think they should be treated the same - I don’t think the guy who tried to kill someone is less dangerous than the guy who did.

Really, so if there are actual dead bodies, as opposed to "Allegations of attempted murder", you see them as the same? I don't think so, and neither do our courts.

My point was the other poster implied this involved a, "Murderer", when it did not.

95 posted on 03/15/2012 1:22:36 PM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: Travis McGee
Mostly it’s stocked with Captain Morgan.

Dude, you have got to try some real rum sometime. May I recommend Appleton XII? Wonderful stuff...

96 posted on 03/15/2012 1:25:11 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: GilesB

Yes I saw that also. I do not know of to many apartments that have attached and unattached garages. A close up view on google shows the garages. I think this is one of the planned communities that have either townhomes or condos, does not look like apartments to me.


97 posted on 03/15/2012 1:25:17 PM PDT by Ratman83
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To: stephenjohnbanker
....I just made them pay for the damage.

I'd make 'em pay, too but it wouldn't be money.

98 posted on 03/15/2012 1:27:38 PM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: dragnet2

You mean - “Allegations of murder” as opposed to “allegations of attempted murder”? Yes, I think they are the same. What are we judging/punishing, the guys competence or his intent? Morally they are the same. End result - I hope that anybody that intends to murder me is incompetent, but I want him put away for good so he can’t practice and try again with greater competence and different results.

I KNOW the courts don’t see it that way - if the courts saw it that way, I wouldn’t have made my commmnt.

I KNOW why you posted your original - I just commented on your making a distinction between the two.


99 posted on 03/15/2012 1:29:47 PM PDT by GilesB
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To: GilesB

“Just ask yourself - if it was the governor’s home, and they had reason enough for a warrant, do you think they would have treated the governor’s belongings the same way?

Even if they KNOW the person is guilty, there is no need to trash a house just to “find evidence”. In fact, such methods most likely destroy more evidence than they discover. They only do it because it displays authority and control over the owner, and because they can.”

Exactly!


100 posted on 03/15/2012 1:30:32 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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