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Was Florida shooter a vigilante or diligent neighbor?
AP via Washington Times ^ | M>arch 22, 2012 | Mike Schneider

Posted on 03/22/2012 5:48:28 AM PDT by libstripper

George Zimmerman once took criminal justice classes at the community college and was practically a one-man neighborhood watch in his gated part of town, calling police close to 50 times over the past eight years to report such things as slow-driving vehicles, strangers loitering in the neighborhood and open garages.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: flshooting; zimmerman
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To: Dead Corpse
No, what you are doing is trying to deny the victim, Martin, the privilege of law to self-defense. He obviously had a well grounded fear of Zimmerman. And, in the end, proving the point, Zimmerman shot him.
51 posted on 03/22/2012 7:15:05 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: HamiltonJay
Wow, that’s some nice fiction there.

Actually... No. It's not. It's a lot more probable than the Neighborhood Watch was out gunning for people after the last couple years worth of good service and actually preventing a couple of crimes.

Keep spouting the MSM/Al Sharpton drivel though.

52 posted on 03/22/2012 7:15:13 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: muawiyah
He attacked Zimmerman and ended up dead for it. Not sure why you have it in for people who are tasked with helping to police their communities.

Yep. Martin had Zimmerman well grounded. Ok, on the ground and beating the tar out of him...

What was Martin suspended from school from? Anger issues and fighting? Looks like he picked the wrong person to fight...

53 posted on 03/22/2012 7:17:37 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: Dead Corpse; HamiltonJay
Ham, don't bother debating with this idiot ~ we have the 911 recordings. We know what Zimmerman did because he tells the 911 dispatcher what he's doing and intent on doing.

Anyone who gets into this "probability" stuff is ignoring Zimmerman's own words.

Sorry DC, the words aren't going away. Time for you to come out of hiding. Your written statement to the cops is simply not supported by your own words!

54 posted on 03/22/2012 7:18:16 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: AppyPappy; ryan71
“Zimmerman could have chosen to avoid a confrontation”

Confrontation is legal. Martin’s right to swing his fist ended at Zimmerman’s nose.

Thank you. Too many people cannot distinquish between the law and all their "could haves" and "should haves."

I personally think he ABSOLUTELY "should have" followed and confronted strangers in his neighborhood given the recent break-ins. The poster you address thinks he "should have" avoided doing so.

However, it matters not what either of us (or the 911 operator) think or say. Our particular feelings, philosophies and sentimentalities don't matter for s**. What matters is the LAW.

Zimmerman had every LEGAL right to follow the "kid" and ask him whatever he pleased. The "kid" had no LEGAL right whatsoever to physically attack Zimmerman. Once he did, Zimmerman had every LEGAL right to defend himself.

This is why Zimmerman hasn't been charged with a crime.

55 posted on 03/22/2012 7:18:50 AM PDT by AAABEST (Et lux in tenebris lucet: et tenebrae eam non comprehenderunt)
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To: Dead Corpse
Roger that, thanks  :-)
56 posted on 03/22/2012 7:20:27 AM PDT by tomkat (FU.baraq)
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To: Dead Corpse
You are evading the cold hard fact that Zimmerman went hunting for Martin, and Martin did not go hunting for Zimmerman. In fact, Zimmerman himself tells us that Martin fled ~ ran away ~ and he swore under his breath about these guys getting away.

That's when he got out of his truck to go find Zimmerman.

If Zimmerman bit off more than he could chew, somebody else is going to really enjoy having him in the same cell. Lots of somebodys in fact.

57 posted on 03/22/2012 7:21:44 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: AAABEST

It is important to the “thug” community that Neighborhood Watch programs be shut down because they deter criminal behavior.


58 posted on 03/22/2012 7:21:51 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: muawiyah

Maybe you should join Al Sharpton and the Million Hoodlum March. They seem to be well over 999,000 hoodlums short, so I’m sure they’d welcome hoodlum sympathizers.


59 posted on 03/22/2012 7:21:56 AM PDT by Above My Pay Grade (.)
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To: muawiyah

Right.

Getting out of the truck armed, was a bad idea.

However at some point after that, the tables seem to have been turned on Zimmerman. The saying goes: if you go looking for trouble, you’ll probably find it.

Thing is, once he found trouble - did it become self defense when he then started losing the altercation?

There seem to be two critical details none of us know yet:

1) Did Zimmerman threaten Martin?
2) Did Zimmerman initiate any sort of physical contact?

If Zimmerman was merely ‘confronting’ Martin as to why he was there and what he was doing, that’s probably within his rights, and something he’d been doing in that neighborhood for nearly a decade.

If Martin then chased Zimmerman down and started exacting retribution for what he saw as an affront - at that time the situation changed dramatically.

If Zimmerman, prior to the fight, had not threatened or come in contact with Martin in any way, then he was it would seem in a legitimate self-defense.

Don’t know about you, but I’ve seen enough urban gang behavior second-hand, to know sometimes a thug will just go completely phycho at a slight provocation.

I’m inclined to believe at this point, there was some of that at work.

Zimmerman opened a can of worms, and tried to get away from it.

He couldn’t. And then defended himself. Perhaps.


60 posted on 03/22/2012 7:22:30 AM PDT by Cringing Negativism Network ("The door is open" PALIN 2012)
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To: Dead Corpse
We've had a neighborhood watch here for over 3 decades. We've never had a dead body. Never had a violent confrontation. Folks here come from 35 different countries.

So, what's your problem with understanding and obeying the law?

61 posted on 03/22/2012 7:25:58 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: libstripper

Is this an election year? Is the Holder Justice Department involved yet? Will a bear....?


62 posted on 03/22/2012 7:27:13 AM PDT by old school
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To: muawiyah
Idiot? The only idiots around here are the ones spouting CBC/MSM talking points. You base your entire thesis off of editorials and wonder why people like me keep refuting you.

Since no one has seen the official police report, you and Kreskin must be taking long hot showers together...

63 posted on 03/22/2012 7:27:31 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: muawiyah

What “hunting”? Yes he was following him to keep an eye on him, but not even the left-wing lunatics are claiming he simply “hunted him down”.

Explain to me why in Zimmerman 44 previous calls to the police, while performing his “community watch” there was never a prior physical confrontation. Do “vigilantes” typically call the cops are handle things on their own?

Also, if I was ever going to hunt a man down and shoot him to death, I don’t think I’d call 911 beforehand to give the police a heads up.

The shooting may or may not be justified (I am leaning towards yes, but I want to hear more evidence), but your characterization of what happened is pure fantasy, and refuted by the fact.


64 posted on 03/22/2012 7:27:34 AM PDT by Above My Pay Grade (.)
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To: muawiyah

European countries?


65 posted on 03/22/2012 7:29:42 AM PDT by palmer (Before reading this post, please send me $2.50)
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To: muawiyah

I found an address in the transcript of the 911 call - 111 Retreat View Circle.

This led me to a place called ‘The Retreat at Twin Lakes’.

Its east gate is closed; and, I can see a blue neighborhood watch sign. The north gate is open, but there is the neighborhood watch sign. Alot of gated communities don’t have guards...and they leave the primary entrance gates open during the daylight hours. So this all looks fairly normal.

The community is surrounded by a low brick wall.

What I am having a hard time finding is the gas station...Martin’s mother said he was walking back from the gas station, where he bought the Skittles and iced tea.

The closest one I can find is around a half mile to the north, on the other side of the interstate.

I don’t think Martin lived there...a story yesterday stated that he went to Krop High School (but was suspended) in Miami (and Sanford is near Orlando). I have no idea if he had other family in Sanford, or why he was there.

I have not been able to find anything indicating why he was in Sanford...in an interview, his father stated ‘he was walking home’...which might mean that his father lived in Sanford.

But the one thing I have not found...and I think would be printed everywhere if true, is any indication that a family member lived in the gated community. To me, that’s important. I’m not sure of the posting laws, or what the blue signs say; but, Martin may have been trespassing.

And, as horrible as this situation is, I don’t want the outcome to be some notion that we cannot confront trespassers, without waiting for the police to arrive.

I assume Zimmerman will eventually get arrested for something...and many of the unanswered questions will be answered in court.


66 posted on 03/22/2012 7:30:28 AM PDT by lacrew (Mr. Soetoro, we regret to inform you that your race card is over the credit limit.)
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To: libstripper

Yesterday I was ready to convict Zimmermann. But, when I heard that Martin’s father said the voice yelling for help on the 911 call was not his son, I changed my mind. It must have been Zimmermann who was in trouble. Those pictures of Martin do not show how big he is now. I haven’t heard how close to Zimmermann’s truck that Martin’s body was found. If Zimmermann was going back to his truck like he said, Martin must have followed him. I just wonder where his body was found.


67 posted on 03/22/2012 7:31:16 AM PDT by dfc1 (I love Sarah!)
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To: apillar
"Did Treyvon's family also live in the gated community?"

This particular article indicates he did not. He was "visiting" his father's "fiance" during his "5 day suspension from school".

68 posted on 03/22/2012 7:31:34 AM PDT by moehoward
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To: muawiyah
So, what's your problem with understanding and obeying the law?

None. Zimmerman followed the law. If he hadn't, the police would have charged him.

Or are you anti-cop now too?

69 posted on 03/22/2012 7:32:29 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
There are several videos on the net showing where the killing happened. The townhouse development is fairly large and has main streets, and it has internal courtyards surrounded with townhouses packed side to side. The courtyards look pretty big but also "deep" leaving maybe half a block distance across the mouth.

So, here's Martin inside a courtyard and Zimmerman has his truck parked on the street in front of the courtyard (kind of like he's blocking easy exit).

Even if Zimmerman couldn't find his quarry, he trapped him.

The cops are on their way before he shoots Martin.

I'm going to guess that Martin was disoriented from being chased around the development (where apparently he was visiting with his father) ~ we still need a good address on his father's girlfriend though ~ and at the same time the locals are being somewhat cagey and won't tell anybody what Zimmerman's address really is ~ like maybe he doesn't really live there.

The civil case against Zimmerman and the homeowner's association is going to show where Zimmerman's truck is blocking the courtyard .........

70 posted on 03/22/2012 7:33:44 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

Go to the video I linked. The reporter says the police have a corroborating witness for Mr. Zimmerman on the vital point that Zimmerman broke off the confrontation and was heading back to his truck when Martin jumped him and started beating him. Not necessarily tetimony sworn in court, but pretty much the next best thing. Also, if the cops don’t identify that witness it will be hard for Zimmerman to hunt him or her down. Indeed, your characterization of Zimmerman as “armed and dangerous” appears highly prejudicial since Zimmerman hasn’t even been charged with a crime and, from the presently available information, it appears that, if there was any crime at all, it was Martin’s violent assault on Zimmerman.


71 posted on 03/22/2012 7:34:58 AM PDT by libstripper
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To: muawiyah
You are evading the cold hard fact that Zimmerman went hunting for Martin...

More editorializing. Zimmerman was doing what he was supposed to do as Neighborhood Watch. It wasn't until Martin attacked him that things went bad.

Again, you appear to WANT Zimmerman to be a bad guy. You WANT him crucified even though you do not have ALL of the information that the local police had. They declined to charge him with anything.

But no... The Great and Mighty muawiyah has spoken and the Hispanic guy is BAD.

You have issues you need to resolve.

72 posted on 03/22/2012 7:36:09 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: Dead Corpse
The evidence is that Zimmerman didn't obey the law. BTW, "stand your ground" specifically does not repeal any other laws already on the book. Engaging in private manhunts with intent to harm are still against the law in Florida.

So why do you want to deny Martin his rights? The "stand your ground" law says he was entitled to defend himself and had no need to retreat ~ yet, in fact, he had retreated. He'd done everything he could to escape an individual who gave every indication of wanting to harm him.

It's night. There's a cold rain. He's in a strange place ~ just a visitor. He walked over to the 7-11 to buy candy, and still had it on him as he returned to his father's girlfriend's place. He's unarmed.

Zimmerman is roaming around in a pickup in that gloom of night, packing heat, and looking for people he thinks are suspicious looking.

Martin was after skittles. Zimmerman was on the scent of man.

I really think I understand what's going on here and you don't.

73 posted on 03/22/2012 7:38:26 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Dead Corpse

My neighborhood watch would have brought charges against Zimmerman in fact. The whole point is to “watch”, not “act” and this dude was hunting.


74 posted on 03/22/2012 7:39:53 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: libstripper
Zimmerman has disappeared and cannot be found. Last seen he'd just killed a visitor to his neighborhood.

The cops didn't take his gun. He presumably still has it.

So, yes, armed and dangerous.

75 posted on 03/22/2012 7:41:57 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
The evidence is that Zimmerman didn't obey the law.

The Sanford PD disagrees. Take it up with them.

76 posted on 03/22/2012 7:42:25 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: Above My Pay Grade

Excellent post.

Well stated.


77 posted on 03/22/2012 7:44:09 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: muawiyah
No. He wasn't. You can keep saying it, but it won't make it true.

Same for your claim that Martin was justified in beating Zimmerman under "stand your ground". He wasn't. "Stand your ground" means you have a legal right to be somewhere and that you are under direct threat. Once Zimmerman was walking away from him, as at least one witness reportedly stated, Martin had no right to jump him.

You lose again.

78 posted on 03/22/2012 7:45:05 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: muawiyah
Was Florida shooter a vigilante or diligent neighbor?

A vigilante who wants to appear to be a diligent neighbor? He didn't help his case with apparently intoxicated 911 comments to the effect of "these assholes are always getting away with it" and "f-cking coons."
79 posted on 03/22/2012 7:45:28 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: ryan71

Neighborhood Watch has rules ~ the point is to “watch”.


80 posted on 03/22/2012 7:45:50 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: aruanan

More like “F-word POS” ~ bringing things up to date. However, my local informants tell me the “Coon” expression is commonly used by Hispanics in this area.


81 posted on 03/22/2012 7:47:19 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

The only thing worse than the misery pimps who are using this for political purposes is the spectacle of those who, in attempting to oppose the misery pimps, end up claiming that Zimmerman did nothing at all wrong and invent secondary and tertiary hypotheses to explain away his lack of common sense, restraint, and ignoring both police and Neighborhood Watch guidelines, all of which resulted in the death of someone the police say had been doing nothing wrong.


82 posted on 03/22/2012 7:50:00 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: Dead Corpse
You need have only a fear for your life. Zimmerman had demonstrated that he was willing to follow and then chase Martin.

Martin had no reason to believe this guy was going to go away.

Remember, Zimmerman never once told Martin why he was there ~

Cold rain, dark of night, strange Hispanic man following him closely in a pickup truck ~ ............. I think Martin had every reason to be fearful.

A reasonable man would think he was being set up for a robbery.

Anyone find Martin's cellphone yet? Last time anyone had anything about the cellphone is that the police property report for Martin did not report a cellphone. It did report the Skittles!

83 posted on 03/22/2012 7:52:17 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Cringing Negativism Network
"Zimmerman probably started the trouble."

One stranger following another, could be "starting trouble".

Other important questions would be...
Was Zimmerman's vehicle marked in any way, lights, door sticker etc... .
Was Zimmerman wearing any kind of jacket that said 'security' or 'neighborhood watch' etc. Since Zimmerman was clearly dedicated to the cause I'd be surprised if he didn't 'look' the part when 'on duty'.

84 posted on 03/22/2012 7:52:17 AM PDT by moehoward
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To: dfc1

Martin’s father has since changed his mind. He now says it’s his son’s voice.


85 posted on 03/22/2012 7:55:51 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

You’ve done a wonderful job of convicting Zimmerman while assiduously ignoring the most important piece of evidence: Zimmerman, corrorborated by at least one witness, has stated that he boke off his attempted pursuit of Martin and was returning to his truck when Martin jumped him. Even under a “stand your ground” law an assailant is not justified in attacking his adversary once the adversary has broken off the confrontation. At that point the onus is on the assailant, which Martin appears to have been. That, along with Martin’s brutal assault on him, gave Zimmerman the right to use lethal defensive force.


86 posted on 03/22/2012 7:56:54 AM PDT by libstripper
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To: Dead Corpse
Regarding the shooting ~ you'd think that if they were in close quarters combat, with Martin pummeling a squalling Zimmerman, that Zimmerman would have gotten a large amount of Martin's blood on him when he fired.

Or was he standing off a bit ~ no longer in contact with Martin ~ and then he shot him straight through the heart?

The "witness" who claims to have seen everything refused to show his face to the reporters ~ wonder how he'd do in court ~ he has to explain that part ~ so, George, time to give yourself up. No good skulking around there in hiding. People want to talk to you.

87 posted on 03/22/2012 7:59:46 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

My, my a changed story by somebody who stands to benefit massively from the changed story. Really credible.


88 posted on 03/22/2012 8:01:24 AM PDT by libstripper
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To: libstripper
Read my post immediately following yours. If Zimmermen wasn't drenched in Martin's blood then the shooting took place AFTER contact had ended.

That'd be a big no-no in your analysis regarding Martin's responsibilities. Then, too the law clearly differentiates between lethal force and less than lethal force.

If Zimmerman wasn't beaten to a pulp, and he'd drawn on Martin, he still didn't have a right to shoot him.

Besides, Zimmerman had Martin TRAPPED in a courtyard. That's at least Kidnapping!

89 posted on 03/22/2012 8:03:40 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: libstripper; mickie
The Hollyweird/Entertainment/Media celebrity crowd has now loudly taken up the cause for "justice" for the victim. Steel yourself for the usual "racist" bombardment to come.

Looks like this leftist bunch has finally given up on "Save Mumia", the twenty-year fervered celebrity drive to absolve and free a murderer who, unfortunately for them (and him), is still doing life without the possibility of parole.

Michael Moore is one of those leading the charge in the Florida case. I see another of his propaganda documentaries in the making....these types of causes celebre are how he makes his slimy living.

Leni

90 posted on 03/22/2012 8:05:36 AM PDT by MinuteGal
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To: WakeUpAndVote

His dad’s girlfriend lived there with his dad


91 posted on 03/22/2012 8:06:06 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: libstripper
The cops didn't want to release the recording of the 911 call, and once it was released, it was readily seen that events transpired differently then George Zimmerman said they had.

That demonstrates that he was EVASIVE, and once you demonstrate that every little particle goes under intense scrutiny.

This guy is toast.

92 posted on 03/22/2012 8:06:15 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: ZULU

“There are legitimate reasons for people to go about armed. I support this. But whnever somebody abuses that right,”

Sorry, “words mean things”. You said “legitimate reasons”. You are incorrect. Zimmerman has the Constitutional right and the laws of the state of Florida, allowing him to go about armed for no reason at all. He didn’t need a “legitimate reason”.


93 posted on 03/22/2012 8:07:19 AM PDT by faucetman ( Just the facts, ma'am, Just the facts)
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To: lacrew

His dad’s girlfriend was the homeowner, his dad lived there with the girlfriend, the kid had a right to be there, whether or not Zimmerman liked it


94 posted on 03/22/2012 8:10:22 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: muawiyah

you are right


95 posted on 03/22/2012 8:11:37 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: muawiyah
Martin’s father has since changed his mind

Unexpected

96 posted on 03/22/2012 8:13:19 AM PDT by tomkat (FU.baraq)
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To: muawiyah
You need have only a fear for your life.

As witnessed, a guy walking away from you is no threat.

Also as witnessed, a guy sitting on your chest beating you IS a threat.

You lose again.

97 posted on 03/22/2012 8:15:56 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: libstripper
Then, for one reson or another, Zimmerman chose to break off the contact.

Assumes facts not in evidence.

98 posted on 03/22/2012 8:17:13 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (This world is a comedy to those that think, a tragedy to those that feel - Horace Walpole)
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To: muawiyah
Witnesses do not need to talk to reporters. Only to the cops. they did and the cops declined to charge Zimmerman.

A fact you can't seem to wrap your tiny little mind around.

99 posted on 03/22/2012 8:17:30 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: muawiyah
..and Martin did not go hunting for Zimmerman.

Not according to the Police. If there was not enough evidence Martin returned from hiding to attack Zimmerman, Zimmerman would have been arrested.

Clearly the police know Zimmerman. He's alerted them an average of 5 times per year since 2004. If that history had been problematic, Zimmerman would now be under arrest.

100 posted on 03/22/2012 8:19:38 AM PDT by moehoward
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