Skip to comments.Cain Swirling rhetoric War of Words in Trayvon case must stop facts are needed before rushing
Posted on 03/27/2012 7:59:39 AM PDT by marktwain
Former Republican presidential candidate and businessman Herman Cain told The Daily Caller hes concerned that the facts of 17-year-old Trayvon Martins killing may be getting lost amid the heated political and racial rhetoric surrounding the case.
Where is the investigation? Cain said in an email to TheDC. That is the question that should be asked, and answered, before all of this swirling rhetoric creates an even more tense situation out of this very tragic incident. We need a complete investigation and all the facts, not a premature War of Words.
Cain added that were there are some troubling questions about how police initially handled Martins death, the facts need to come out before the American people rush to judgment.
On the surface, it appears this was a senseless killing, Cain said. And it appears as if the suspect was not taken into custody. It appears there wasnt an immediate or thorough investigation.
Im not an investigator, but I believe all the facts should be out on the table before we draw any more conclusions in this case, he continued.
African-American conservative commentator Deneen Borelli told TheDC she thinks Martin Luther King, Jr. wouldnt condone the way some activists have handled the Martin shooting.
He [King] would never condone what Spike Lee has done, who tweeted Zimmermans address, Borelli, the author of BlackLash, a book critical of tactics employed by some progressives in situations where race may be a factor, said. He would not condone President Obamas comments and Al Sharpton injecting himself into this situation the way that he has. This is something that Martin Luther King would absolutely not stand for.
The credibility of the investigation, the Sanford PD, the DA, the City, etc. would be in a shambles if even one iota of those spurious, unsupported and outlandish claims were true.
Even Bo’R isn’t that damned stupid to make up some fantastical claims such as this. The race war would already be on if true.
I read where Mr. Zimmerman couldn’t stop crying in the back of the police cruiser and for hours afterwards.
Many firearms instructors, police and others with experience in these matters will tell you that this is a normal response for a rational and decent person who has been forced to take another human’s life.
“Laughing with the police.”?? Like hell.
Thanks for the update. He was cuffed, right? I thought so. I love the boob who is outraged that somebody was smoking! Who wouldn’t smoke after that nightmare?
WABC is happily reporting that it was prosecutors who got the cops to drop the case, not the cops. They are reporting this as if it was something new and shiny. They are determined to get this guy.
>He followed Martin ON FOOT. That is the aggression. Following and observing in his vehicle was okay. Getting out of the vehicle turned things into something else. Follow the logic
Cite any relevant statute which states that following someone on foot is either illegal or aggressive.
Good luck with that.
>And the police dispatcher saw trouble coming and advised Zimmerman to stay in his car.
We’ve dealt with that enough times that it doesn’t bear repeating. A suggestion is just a suggestion.
Once again, the key point- who threw the first punch?
You’re just dancing around and avoiding the key issue.
Page 3 of the pdf clearly details Mr. Zimmerman in CUSTODY and transported to the PD for interrogation.
Yet, somehow, according to our resident “expert”, he’s “laughing and smoking” with the police officers.
More of the released information here:
>How do you know that is all he did? What evidence can you provide that Zimmerman didn’t have some sort of verbal exchange with Martin that led to the physical fight and Zimmerman drawing the weapon he was carrying?
There is a witness that backs up Zimmerman’s account that he was on his way back to his truck when Martin jumped him.
Witness >> your speculation.
>Nothing would have happened had Zimmerman stayed in the car and let the police handle things
Nothing would have happened if Martin had not thrown a punch.
Which action is actually violent? Following or punching?
This isn’t a trick question by the way.
You first sport. You made the claims, I’m asking for your source.
I just posted the link to the police report on another post. Now you get to back up your scurrilous claims against not only Mr. Zimmerman, but the investigating officers you smeared with your slander as well.
But as I’ve seen, you’re quite the dancer. Dancing around the questions posed to you.
I read that yesterday but completely forgot about it! There are so many details to absorb. I’m gonna read it again. Thanks for posting.
I've followed plenty of people ON FOOT. And never was I aggressive.
And I've had people follow me in cars / trucks....that I took to be aggressive.
Your logic is lacking..........
"Was he under the influence of something?"
"What can you tell us about that?"
Not my claim to buttress.
"Why wasn't Zimmerman's weapon seized and held as part of the investigation?"
I'm waiting for your source that the police officers on scene and Mr. Zimmerman were "laughing and smoking" in the aftermath.
That Mr. Zimmerman was never placed into custody, to which, I posted a copy of the police report refuting your scurrilous accusations.
Now, when can I expect you to post the source(s) to your accusations against the Sanford PD officers and Mr. Zimmerman?
Thanks for the link. I couldn’t pull up 2 .pdfs.
It would be interesting to see the crime stats,... If Burglary rates fell after the shooting.
I want to see the proof/source(s) of your slander against the Sanford PD officers and Mr. Zimmerman "laughing and smoking" after Martin was shot.
You’ve slandered the Sanford PD and Mr. Zimmerman then.
Thanks for showing that you don’t have the sources to back up your claim.
I’d try again on the pdf’s. I was able to download them all. I suspect that by now word’s gotten out and that site has become very popular.
Yes those stats would very interesting.
I’ve done nothing of the kind. I support neither except the RULE OF LAW and there are some folks on both sides are going off the deep end. Being deliberately obtuse.
You made a claim, I challenged you on it and asked for your sources. Instead, you want to play kids games.
Should be VERY EASY for you to offer them up, yet, we’re still waiting.
Put up or shut up.
Did they "laugh and smoke" with you afterwards?
Have you ever followed a person when the police directly told you not to?
The police did not tell Zimmerman not to follow Martin.
The dispatcher told him he didn’t need to follow.
Rooivalk, as a police officer, I am telling you that Martin or any other citizen has a right to follow any suspicious person in their neighborhood and yes, even ask them what they are doing or who they are. The person being asked has no legal obligation to answer. Absent a private peace disturbance (fighting words) directed at the suspicious person, they don’t have right to assault the questioner.
There is no evidence that Zimmerman said any fighting words, but there is evidence that Martin attacked him anyway.
They cannot physically detain them (citizens arrest) unless they have personally seen them commit a crime, usually a felony.
Zimmerman was a volunteer with nothing that was legally binding in his “job” as neighborhood watch captain other than the normal laws any one of us is bound by.
A dispatcher has no legal authority to tell ANYONE what they must do.
If Martin ran away from Zimmerman, he can easily argue that he only ran after Martin to observe his route of travel and destination, not to detain or confront. That is still WATCHING.
Get back to me, when you have the facts.
Of course you didn't address my post one bit though..............
Seems reading back, that's your M.O.
“Why wasn’t Zimmerman’s weapon seized and held as part of the investigation?”
It was. It is still in their custody.
Read the police report. It is “Twin Lakes Shooting Initial Report” under the Trayvon Martin Investigation at the link:
Yes, that is true. It is also true that nothing would have happened if Trayvon Martin had stayed home. It is very likely nothing would have happened if Trayvon Martin's girlfriend had not called him, delaying him from going home, and likely making his appearance suspicious, as he was talking on a hands free device. Most people have seen someone that appears to be acting crazy, then finds out they are on a cell phone.
All of that, however, is irrelevant, because both Trayvon Martin and George Zimmerman had every right to be in the public spaces that they were in, until the physical altercation started.
UPDATE: The Brady Campaign sent this statement to TheDC Monday evening: It has now been reported that the Sanford Police Department is in possession of the gun that George Zimmerman used to shoot Trayvon Martin. Zimmerman, however, still has his concealed carry license and he still has the ability to buy a gun and carry it into public spaces.
The initial police report also states that they took George Zimmerman's pistol and impounded it.
You need remedial English.
If you see no difference between `stay the f away from the guy` and `we don`t need you to follow` then there`s no point in having any kind of conversation.
Let me ask you this:
Were the police dispatcher`s words legally binding
Did Zimmerman break the law by exiting his truck
“Why wasn’t Zimmerman given a field sobriety test? Was he under the influence of something? What can you tell us about that?”
We do not know that George Zimmerman was not given a feild sobriety test, but if there was no evidence of a lack of sobriety, then there was no reason to give one.
As for the blood alchol test, the police have no authority to demand one in this case, because they had no probable cause to arrest George Zimmerman. Florida law is very clear on this.
Again, read the City Manager’s statement, and you will have a much better understanding of why the City did what they did.
It is on post 5 at the link:
It was the prosecutor who told the police that there was no case against George Zimmerman, and that he would not be charged.
Back in my drinking days (last drink 2/2/99, thank you very much) I was given many a sobriety test.
Since that time, I have been stopped for speeding, general roadblocks for licenses etc., but have never again been given a sobriety test.
I assume that a lack of the smell of alcohol, clear speech plus due & proper respect had something to do with it.
Mark one for proper investigation
That’s all well and good.
However, I’d still like to see your source(s) that support your allegations that the Sanford PD officers and Mr. Zimmerman were “laughing and smoking” after the shooting.
Also, the source(s) that contradict(s) the official police report, which I provided up thread, that prove your other allegation that Mr. Zimmerman was not placed into custody.
“Not one of you “Zimmerman was justified killing Martin” people can offer a plausible explanation for Martin attacking Zimmerman in the first place! Martin was on his way home.It was raining. How would he have EVEN become aware of Zimmerman in the first place to where he would attack this man?”
First, Martin was aware of Zimmerman. Zimmerman states in the 911 tape that the suspect sees him, stares at him, moves toward him, then moves away.
Second, The girlfriend claims that on her phone call to Martin, Martin said that he was aware of a man following him, and that he was afraid.
Third, Zimmerman says that he exchanged words with Martin just before he was attacked. It appears that the girlfreind collaberates this statement, but I do not have an exact quote from Zimmerman on it. Martin says something like “Why are you following me?” and Zimmerman says “What are you doing here?” The quotes are from memory. The girlfriend's phone call was not recorded, as far as I know.
So, Martin is afraid of Zimmerman. He and Zimmerman exchange words, they are close. Martin towers over Zimmerman by about 6 inches, and it is clear that Zimmerman is out of shape.
I find it quite plausible that Martin thinks: I can take this guy, and jumps him.
Possible motives for Martin jumping Zimmerman:
Fear of Zimmerman because Zimmerman followed him. Many on freerepublic have said that if a stranger followed them, they would feel endangered and feel justified in attacking them. That would likely not hold up in court, but many have said they would do so.
Street cred: If Martin is into the “gansta” culture, beating down someone would give him status. Twitter posts after the fact indicate that this is not far fetched. Young black males have been making news across the country as they play the “knockout game” where they attempt to knock out innocent people with a sucker punch.
Testosterone poisoning: Young males are prone to be edgy and aggressive, especially if they are under stress. Martin was under suspension. He was forced to be in a strange neighborhood, away from his peers, because of school problems.
A motive often cited by Martin partisans is that Zimmerman grabbed him/touched him/ or otherwise started the physical confrontation. It is possible, but we simply have no evidence that it is so.
>Every witness that has come forth to date has claimed they only witnessed the LAST MOMENTS of the fight. Noone has come forth and said they witnessed Zimmerman’s FIRST approach to Martin. Nor has anyone witnessed when Zimmerman FIRST emerged from his vehicle. So you are attempting to talk about things that noone has provided real evidence of. Nothing would have happened had Zimmerman stayed in the car and let the police handle things
Again you’ve never explained what Zimmerman did that was wrong beyond following someone.
>Actually nothing would have happened had Zimmerman followed the advice of the police dispatcher and stayed in his vehicle. That seems to be some hard logic for you to accept.
Gee, let’s expand on that logic. If Martin had not been suspended and thus in a strange neighborhood moving around at night , he wouldn’t have attracted Zimmerman’s attention as suspicious. See, it’s back on Martin again. That’s exactly as much of a stretch as the nonsense you are peddling.
>Since Martin did not attack Zimmerman inside his vehicle there would never have been any “first punch” had Zimmerman not tried to engage Martin on foot.
Well shucks, if Martin hadn’t gone walking in a strange neighborhood, he wouldn’t have caused Zimmerman to get out of the car. See where this goes?
>Lets see you refute that fact
Was I supposed to be impressed by puerile nonsense?
>Some call it stalking. And without any authority to follow on foot Martin, Zimmerman could be considered a stalker
Where do you get this nonsense? A stalker? I mean really, do you listen to yourself?
>So when the police tell you something you regard it as a “suggestion”? Please!
Maybe you’re not aware of this, but police dispatchers are generally not actual police (cheaper to use a civilian). Their words do not in any weigh carry the weight of police orders.
>There would have been no “first punch” had Zimmerman stayed in his vehicle. Right? Zimmerman was not punched inside his car. So why was he on the streets where he could get punched?
Why was Martin on the street punching people? This is a pathetically stupid circular argument. We can go back a long ways with this and it will get just as far into nowhere.
One person in this situation initiated violence. According to the evidence available at this point, that person was Martin. You can hem and haw all you like about possibilities, but shoulda, woulda, coulda doesn’t mean didly squat. More to the point, nothing Zimmerman did was illegal. He committed no crime. Martin, by what evidence we have started a fight. That is breaking the law. This is a pretty clear cut difference. Your inability to grasp that simple reality is rather disturbing.
Do you wear a special costume when you go looking for racism that isn’t there?
Not good enough. Provide a link please.
The rest of your comments are irrelevant to me. I’m challenging your scurrilous assertion that the Sanford PD officers and Zimmerman were laughing and smoking after the shooting.
Again, put up or shut up.
Until you do, you have shot your credibility to hell.
I wonder, are you a bit biased on this topic? Is this why you insist on slandering the Sanford PD officers and Zimmerman with those false allegations? Is this why you won’t provide the actual links to your claims? Folks have been providing links to information to show you where and how you’re wrong, but that’s not good enough. It doesn’t meet your pre-conceived, biased theory, so it’s dismissed.
You are engaging in the very same behavior that the media, Al Sharpton, JJ and all the other race hustlers have been in since day one of this blow up. Despicable, trollish behavior.
Intentionally lying about people, just like the scum in the media and the racists who are calling for Mr. Zimmerman’s head on a platter.
Again, until you either RETRACT the false accusation or provide a link, your words and position on this issue aren’t worth spit.
Liar. I've never said, nor have I ever asserted anything of the kind.
Post the source links.
“Cain crucified himself. He should have know he would be subject to a full body cavity search.”
And if the accusations are false?
That’s my point...