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Man credits concealed carry weapon for saving two lives(WI)
fox6now.com ^ | 25 March, 2012 | Jeremy Ross

Posted on 03/27/2012 5:24:57 PM PDT by marktwain

MILWAUKEE — A would-be victim says his concealed carry gun was the reason a criminal’s intentions were stopped cold. He says investigators told him it’s possible the man who tried to rob him Saturday night could have robbed others this weekend.

Saturday night, March 24th, Danny Black and his girlfriend Julie took the dogs out for a walk. Seven-year-old golden-doodle Chloe was along for the stroll when Black says another person interrupted.

The two were confronted by the driver of a van in the area of 73rd and Courtland. Worrisome words quickly turned into threatening actions. Black says the driver was armed, and tried to rob the two. “He was saying to her, ‘give me the bag, give me the bag.’ It was a semi-automatic and he clicked it like he was loading it,” Black said.

Black says his heart began to pound, but it wasn’t the adrenaline that helped him through. He credits his own firearm. Black has a concealed carry permit, but hoped to never even threaten to use his weapon in public. “Me pulling a gun out saved both of our lives last night. I pointed the gun at him and he said, what was I doing, and just drove off,” Black said.

Black says he’s all too aware in a different scenario, pulling out a gun against another gunman could have greatly escalated the violence. “I’m just happy with the way it turned out. I don’t ever want to be in that situation again,” Black said.

Black says this incident should serve as a reminder to Wisconsin criminals that the victims they target may no longer be as defenseless as they may have been before the concealed carry law took effect in the state. “There are thousands of people like me, carrying guns, so them looking for easy targets – that’s all over now. That’s not going to happen anymore,” Black said.

FOX6 News contacted Milwaukee police for comment on this story, but they did not return our email. It’s unclear at this time whether anyone is in custody in connection with this incident.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Wisconsin
KEYWORDS: banglist; ccw; defense; wi
Benefits of the shall issue CCW law in Wisconsin.
1 posted on 03/27/2012 5:25:07 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain
Sounds like improper use of deadly force to me.

I have been taught in my jurisdiction that you should ONLY pull out a concealed handgun if you feel that your life is in danger or the life of someone else is in danger. My training was that ff you pull out your concealed carry handgun it should be only because you NEED to kill someone to save your life or the life of another person. Otherwise, it stays concealed.

The actions and statements by this person could be used in a court of law (in some jurisdictions) against him as proof that he was not in a deadly force confrontation(i.e. because he didn't shoot) and he was the person who escalated the confrontation by pulling out a handgun (even after the bad guy had his firearm out).

This also is a good example of why you never talk to the media after a potential deadly force confrontation.

If one has a CCL, then you need to understand when deadly force can be used.

2 posted on 03/27/2012 5:35:54 PM PDT by Robert357 (D.Rather "Hoist with his own petard!" www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1223916/posts)
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To: Robert357

If I had seen the gun, and saw the man attempting to get a round in the chamber, and I understood that he was using the gun to rob me, I would have pulled out my gun and started shooting. Period.


3 posted on 03/27/2012 5:46:08 PM PDT by Respond Code Three (Support Free Republic lest we eventually get a Republic which is not free.)
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To: Respond Code Three

Agreed. Pulling it without firing might have been the only way to de-escalate the situation. By the way, I was IN this exact situation.

I understand, and have heard the reasoning behind “the only time you pull it, is when you intend to use it”. I’m just not sure I agree with it.


4 posted on 03/27/2012 5:50:07 PM PDT by tickedoffnow (No more...)
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To: tickedoffnow

I just realized that I didn’t respond entirely correct to your comment. I said “Agreed”, and then proceeded to support what this man did (which I do, as he managed to end the attempt w/o any shots fired.)

Of course, it goes without saying you should be prepared to fire in case it does escalate, but let me ask this: Why do officers pull weapons without firing? (that was rhetorical, as we all know it’s too intimidate). And I’m NOT arguing legal tactics here, just the thought process.


5 posted on 03/27/2012 5:56:24 PM PDT by tickedoffnow (No more...)
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To: marktwain
According to DOJ crime statistics, guns are used by private citizen 2.5 million times per year to prevent violent crimes like rape, robbery, home invasions and carjackings, 99% of the time without a shot being fired.

GunFacts.info

6 posted on 03/27/2012 5:57:19 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Government is the religion of the sociopath.)
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To: Robert357
Robert357 said: "... only because you NEED to kill someone ..."

The most effective way to stop a deadly attack is to use deadly force, but the force is only justified in order to stop the attack, not to kill the attacker. It's only a coincidence of human physiology that the most effective means of stopping the attacker can so easily lead to the death of the attacker. The death of the attacker is never a justified goal apart from stopping the attack.

Your statement would be better worded, "... only because you need to stop someone ..."

7 posted on 03/27/2012 6:04:09 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: Robert357

I am also of the "use it if you have to pull it" background. But I do hope this becomes "old school" thinking. Maybe, just maybe, as these stories come out more often the criminal element will think twice about using deadly force. Maybe one or two will even be smart enough to turn their lives around and thank their intended victim some day for not pulling the trigger. But that's probably just wishful thinking.


8 posted on 03/27/2012 6:07:22 PM PDT by so_real ( "The Congress of the United States recommends and approves the Holy Bible for use in all schools.")
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To: tickedoffnow
I understand that a firearm can cause a crook to run away.

I also understand that some use weapons to intimidate.

The laws (in my jurisdiction) as I have learned them, make brandishing a crime.

The sad truth is that depending on the police who investigate and the DA who determines if charges are filed, justice and what is fair have little to do with whether a person who tries to defend themself will spend time in jail awaiting trial.

My comments were that based on my training in my jurisdiction what the person did, risked his life and freedom.

Getting a CCL is a very personal decision and one with huge responsibility. One needs to know the consequences and potential outcomes of a life and death confrontation, which is what happens when you pull a firearm from concealment.

I think that the policy of “shoot to live” and only when no other safe option is available, is the best approach.

9 posted on 03/27/2012 6:11:29 PM PDT by Robert357 (D.Rather "Hoist with his own petard!" www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1223916/posts)
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To: William Tell

You are right. If in shooting the attacker the attack is safely stopped, there is no need to “execute” the attacker. However, the moment the firearm is drawn from concealment, there should be no hesitation to shoot and the shoot placement should not be a wounding shot nor a warning shot, but a shot that will immediately stop the attack, which is usually a shot to an area that would normally be fatal.


10 posted on 03/27/2012 6:20:49 PM PDT by Robert357 (D.Rather "Hoist with his own petard!" www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1223916/posts)
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To: Robert357

You’re kidding right? When a criminal points a gun at you while demanding your property that not only makes it lawful to draw your weapon, it makes it lawful to shoot the criminal and there is no jury in America that would find differently if the victim is legally carrying a weapon.


11 posted on 03/27/2012 6:34:53 PM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Robert357
Robert357 said: "... the shot placement should not be a wounding shot nor a warning shot, but a shot that will immediately stop the attack, which is usually a shot to an area that would normally be fatal."

That's pretty much it. I was taught to fire two rounds to center-of-mass and then, if the attack continues, a round between the eyes.

Physiologically, what stops an attack is damage to the attackers blood circulation or central nervous system.

Two shots to the chest with a suitable caliber will damage the circulation system of the attacker sufficient to lower blood pressure almost immediately and result in unconsciousness. The follow-up round, in the case that the attack continues, is designed to disable the central nervous system of the attacker. A common reason for needing the follow-up is that the person is wearing body armor of some type.

12 posted on 03/27/2012 6:49:07 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: Robert357

I agree about not talking to the media, other than that you are just plain wrong, unless of course you live in NYC or some such place. A thug brandishing a gun, demanding your property has already spiked the threat meter. If he shot the bad guy as he was driving away then he well may be in trouble.


13 posted on 03/27/2012 6:52:45 PM PDT by Eagles6
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To: jwalsh07
You’re kidding right? When a criminal points a gun at you while demanding your property that not only makes it lawful to draw your weapon, it makes it lawful to shoot the criminal and there is no jury in America that would find differently if the victim is legally carrying a weapon.

You're right. I'm not waiting for him to shoot first just so it will be fair. If someone threatens me with a gun he relinquishes all rights to fairness.

14 posted on 03/27/2012 6:53:44 PM PDT by TangoLimaSierra (To the left the truth looks Right-Wing.)
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To: tickedoffnow

I don’t doubt he would have used it, but the driver disengaged and drove away. Try defending yourself from that in court, firing on a guy driving away.


15 posted on 03/27/2012 7:04:16 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Robert357

He was not brandishing. Brandishing is taking out your gun for a non-valid reason.


16 posted on 03/27/2012 7:05:45 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: William Tell

Pelvic/groin shots are good too.


17 posted on 03/27/2012 7:06:37 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: Robert357

You are dead wrong. I have pointed my gun without shooting 4 times in my life, each time stopped the attact. I know when I HAVE to shoot. Hopefully I will never need to. Once was a guy trying to kick in my motel door in Houston. I opened it with my 45 ACP pointed at his face. He said “I think I have the wrong room” and ran. White guy, by the way. Another was a guy halfway in my bedroom window in Amarillo (early 70’s, no air conditioning). Large black gentleman. I cocked my Ruger Super Blackhawk in his face. Disappeared very quickly.


18 posted on 03/27/2012 7:35:00 PM PDT by TStro
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To: marktwain

:: There are thousands of people like me ::

I am Sparti-Wessoni-cus!


19 posted on 03/27/2012 7:42:52 PM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alterations - The acronym explains the science.)
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To: tickedoffnow

: “the only time you pull it, is when you intend to use it”. I’m just not sure I agree with it ::

My take: Drop your weapon and lay down with your hands spread. IF YOU DON’T, I WILL SHOOT YOU.

Pretty straight forward and “protective” of the perp. No compiance means ventilation.


20 posted on 03/27/2012 7:47:05 PM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alterations - The acronym explains the science.)
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To: Secret Agent Man
Secret Agent Man said: "Pelvic/groin shots are good too."

Well, .... pelvic or groin WOUND is good, especially if it hits the abdominal aorta or one of the femoral arteries and makes a big enough wound. A wound in the heart would almost certainly rob the brain of oxygen in mere seconds. A large enough wound to the main arteries or veins of the lungs will lower blood pressure quickly.

Notice that I said "wounds" and not "shots". Under the stress of a deadly attack, with an attacker who may be moving, while attempting to move oneself in order to minimize chances of being hit, the best strategy for making any of these wounds in an attacker is to aim for center-of-mass.

If one were to aim for the groin and the shot goes low, the attacker may actually escape being wounded at all if the round goes between his legs.

The thoracic cavity is rich in large arteries and veins. Most people don't realize that the abdominal aorta is a pipe which is about twice the diameter of a garden hose. Put some holes in it and the attacker will quickly lose the ability to continue the attack.

Movies and TV make it appear as if a gun is a magic wand. Shoot someone and they immediately fall over unconscious. Some people when wounded will immediately lose interest in attacking. Others who are more disciplined or who are under the influence of drugs, can continue the attack despite having taken several rounds, even if the wounds will eventually prove fatal.

I remember an old detective movie with Dan Blocker (Hoss from the Bonanza series) having somebody point a small caliber handgun at him. I think he laughed and said, "You've got to be kidding!".

The point was that a man built like Blocker might be killed by several rounds from a small handgun, but that it was very likely that Blocker would have been able to close on the shooter and break the shooter's neck with his bare hands before suffering much in the way of ill effects.

The infamous shoot-out of the FBI with two well-disciplined and well-armed bank robbers demonstrated that bad guys can suffer many wounds and still have the ability to kill the good guys.

If you are attacked and can run away, then run away. Otherwise, make use of cover or concealment and use whatever force you have available to stop the attack. Running away is always the preferred option because the outcome of a gun battle is always uncertain. It's poor consolation to stop the attacker if one ends up dead.

21 posted on 03/27/2012 7:57:16 PM PDT by William Tell
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To: tickedoffnow
"Why do officers pull weapons without firing? (that was rhetorical, as we all know it’s to intimidate)."

I can't speak for all departments and all officers. That being said, when I pulled my weapon without firing, it was not to intimidate someone. It was for officer safety.

In high risk vehicle stops, I would pull my weapon. So what is a high risk vehicle stop? It is one where the officer has reason to believe the person he is stopping is wanted for a violent felony, or for fleeing the scene of a crime in which a felony just occurred. Some of these would be crimes like murder, armed robbery, assault with a deadly weapon, residential burglary, and forcible rape. Or, if a firearm was displayed during a disturbance, but not fired, I would still have pulled my weapon even if the crime was not a felony. In a situation not involving a vehicle stop, like searching a residence or commercial building when a burglary suspect was believed to still be present, I would pull my weapon.

I made a lot of felony arrests without drawing my weapon. Some of these arrests were for probable cause or warrants for crimes like grand theft, felony domestic violence, residential burglary, forgery, narcotics violations, auto theft, and people wanted for parole violations.

I know there are people who are going to read this and pounce, with what if, what if, what if etc. Situations vary. A felony suspect can be arrested sometimes without the use of a firearm, and at other times a firearm is pulled for officer safety.

22 posted on 03/27/2012 8:05:18 PM PDT by Respond Code Three (Support Free Republic lest we eventually get a Republic which is not free.)
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To: William Tell

I offered that as an alternative to a head shot. Like in case you could’nt get a clear shot there. Besides you mentioned wearing a vest, and generally the groin area is unshielded, has arteries and might cause the perp not to be able to advance towards you if you hit certain internals.

Plus if you aim high, you have a better chance at hitting his torso. Aim high on a head shot and you hit nothing.


23 posted on 03/27/2012 8:20:52 PM PDT by Secret Agent Man (I'd like to tell you, but then I'd have to kill you.)
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To: marktwain; Hunton Peck; Diana in Wisconsin; P from Sheb; Shady; DonkeyBonker; Wisconsinlady; JPG; ..

Wisconsin Concealed Carry ping

FReep Mail me if you want on, or off, this Wisconsin interest ping list.


24 posted on 03/27/2012 9:10:26 PM PDT by afraidfortherepublic
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To: Secret Agent Man; All
Pelvic shots are particularly useful if the opponent has a contact weapon, like a knife or a club. If you hit the pelvic girdle, which is usually much easier than the head, with a bullet energetic enough to break the bone, the opponent is down in one step.

You can usually walk away faster than he can crawl after you.

If you shoot in the chest, it can easily take 10-30 seconds for the shot/shots to have a perceptible effect.

25 posted on 03/27/2012 10:21:34 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: tickedoffnow; All

The mere showing of the weapon is enough to deescalate the situation in 90-95 percent of the cases. Most criminals do not want to be shot.

Just because you have justification to shoot does not mean that it is always a good idea.


26 posted on 03/27/2012 10:24:09 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: Robert357; All
My comments were that based on my training in my jurisdiction what the person did, risked his life and freedom.

Arizona passed a "defensive display" law expressly to allow a person to show that they are armed, without the risk of prosecution for showing their weapon.

27 posted on 03/27/2012 10:26:51 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain
Arizona passed a "defensive display" law expressly to allow a person to show that they are armed, without the risk of prosecution for showing their weapon.

About 20 years ago, I read Masaad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme." in which IIRC he was walking out into a dark parking lot, and a couple of people seemed to be hanging around the area of his vehicle. By taking his gun out and holding it down along his side in a non-threatening location while walking, the potential muggers just seemed to disappear. Nobody was hurt. The right people were warned.

Robbers, muggers, burglars -- they will pick a more compliant target -- they don't want hassle, armed or not. But every situation is different.

Don't dogs usually give you a warning before you get close enough for them to bite you? A "grrrr" or a yap? Here's a link to some talk on this:

http://survivaltopics.com/forums/threads/in-the-gravest-extreme-by-massad-ayoob.21781/

28 posted on 03/27/2012 11:54:52 PM PDT by imardmd1 (When God's gift is rejected, and Satan grins)
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To: marktwain

What was the dog doing while all that was happening?


29 posted on 03/28/2012 9:29:22 AM PDT by Ellendra ("It's astounding how often people mistake their own stupidity for a lack of fairness." --Thunt)
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