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Golf course can sue gun range(Barf alert)
mysanantonio.com ^ | 4 April, 2012 | Michelle Mondo

Posted on 04/04/2012 8:47:27 AM PDT by marktwain

Owners of a South Side gun range lost another battle in a legal war with neighboring Mission Del Lago golf course Tuesday when a judge cleared the way for course operator Municipal Golf Association-SA to continue its effort to shut down part of the range.

And as A Place to Shoot gun range and the MGA-SA wrangle over an injunction that seeks to cease rifle fire at the Pleasanton Road business, the golfer whose gunshot wound to the chest prompted the allegations of unsafe conditions has stepped into the fray by suing both parties.

Justo Flores, 31, alleges that the owners of A Place to Shoot, the MGA-SA, employees at Mission Del Lago golf course and the City of San Antonio are all at fault for the incident March 4, when he was struck by a stray bullet while playing the course's 12th hole, according to court documents.

On March 14, two days after two golf course employees claimed to hear a rifle shot and feel a bullet whiz by, the MGA-SA filed a request for an injunction along with an application for a temporary restraining order to close the rifle section of the range.

It is the only section of A Place to Shoot that points in the golf course's direction. A district judge granted the order that same day.

With all sides placing blame, it has not been determined where the stray bullet originated.

Police Chief William McManus has said an in-depth investigation could not determine the bullet's origin and said there was no way to tell if it came from the range. Mitchell Lake separates the properties, and the golf course is also abutted to the south by wooded property known for hunting.

William Allan, Flores' attorney, said they expected to prove the bullet came from the gun range by also “pointing out to the public how grossly negligent both parties are.”

Attorneys for A Place to Shoot didn't return calls seeking comment about the lawsuit or the most recent development on the injunction.

Lawyers for the shooting range had argued last week that the golf association didn't have the jurisdiction to sue. They cited a state statute that forbids cities or counties from regulating shooting ranges established before Sept. 1, 2011, and that prevents local governments from suing ranges without the Legislature's permission.

That restriction should apply to the golf association, a public/private partnership created by the City of San Antonio to manage its municipal golf courses, the attorneys said.

District Court Judge Renée McElhaney disagreed and Tuesday denied the plea to have the case thrown out. The next step is a hearing to determine if the golf association can get a temporary injunction, a step beyond the temporary restraining order.

Golf association CEO and President Jim Roschek said in a news release Tuesday that for now, “Mission del Lago is open and we believe our employees and patrons are safe from A Place to Shoot's rifle shots.”

Allan said the fact the MGA-SA is fighting so hard to keep the rifle section closed proves it believes the shots came from there even though it has said the origin couldn't be known.

The golf association is guilty of gross negligence, court documents argue, alleging the golf operators knew about previous stray bullet complaints and lied to Flores after he was shot, telling him they did not know of any concerns before March 4.

Representatives of the golf course offered “a few rounds of golf to make everything go away,” the documents claim.

Flores is seeking up to $750,000 in damages.

mmondo@express-news.net


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; News/Current Events; US: Texas
KEYWORDS: banglist; gun; txgolf
In a previous article, it was stated that the range is two miles from the golf course. People at the range say that the range is set up to make it impossible for bullets to leave the range.

What is the purpose of protecting ranges from lawsuit, when a judge simply says the law doesn't apply?

1 posted on 04/04/2012 8:47:37 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

People do fire over the backstops, I’ve seen that happen.

Two miles though? Would you be able to hear the gunshot from that far away under these conditions. Forget about the bullet going that far.


2 posted on 04/04/2012 8:55:51 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: marktwain

that’s a great course, 12th hole has a few hazards...


3 posted on 04/04/2012 8:57:47 AM PDT by NativeSon ( Grease the floor with Crisco when I dance the Disco)
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To: All


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4 posted on 04/04/2012 9:04:28 AM PDT by musicman (Until I see the REAL Long Form Vault BC, he's just "PRES__ENT" Obama = Without "ID")
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To: driftdiver

A high-powered rifle bullet could go 3 miles easily. You’d have to point the weapon up to nearly a 45 degree angle though. A bullet fired at or near the horizontal can only travel as far as its velocity can carry it while it is falling toward the ground at 32 ft/second squared.

The sound of a rifle being fired could carry two miles, especially if the wind is right. However, it is likely that the bullet would arrive at the point of impact long before the sound did. Subsonic bullets, again, won’t get far if they are fired at or near the horizontal. Bottom line is it is serious misconduct or seriously bad range construction if a shooter fires over or through a backstop.

I make no judgement about whether the round that hit the golfer came from the range. However, if the club isn’t supervising its members shooting practices, then they are wrong and liable. Sometimes people do stupid things on a range if standards are not enforced, especially by and among the shooters themselves.


5 posted on 04/04/2012 9:06:26 AM PDT by SargeK
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To: NativeSon
Really wondering about the guy who designed a golf course down range!

It is really too funny ~

NOTE: Spent some time on an observation point overlooking the East German border years ago. The Russians had an artillery range about 5 miles away where they'd do live fire exercises at night with short load rounds.

It can be unnerving when it's aimed your way.

Still, think of the new sporting possibilities ~ GOLF BALL SKEET SHOT. Maybe a little 9-MM wedgies? Par 0 holes ~ the foursomes go out but they don't come back!

6 posted on 04/04/2012 9:06:26 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: marktwain

What happens when somebody at the rifle range gets hit by a golf ball? In real life, golf balls are significantly harder to control than bullets.


7 posted on 04/04/2012 9:08:51 AM PDT by varmintman
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To: muawiyah

sure! and working on your ‘handicap’ takes on a whole new meaning


8 posted on 04/04/2012 9:09:46 AM PDT by NativeSon ( Grease the floor with Crisco when I dance the Disco)
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To: NativeSon
No sand traps ~ just death traps.

The bullet hazard.

Bag limit ~ "Hole in only one".

9 posted on 04/04/2012 9:10:47 AM PDT by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah

you’ll need artillery support if you’re stuck in a bunker


10 posted on 04/04/2012 9:32:33 AM PDT by NativeSon ( Grease the floor with Crisco when I dance the Disco)
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To: NativeSon

18 holes is a ‘tour of duty’...


11 posted on 04/04/2012 9:34:16 AM PDT by NativeSon ( Grease the floor with Crisco when I dance the Disco)
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To: SargeK; All
Bottom line is it is serious misconduct or seriously bad range construction if a shooter fires over or through a backstop.

I have been on ranges where it is impossible to fire over the backstop from the firing points. This is done with overhead cover so as to preclude that possibility. I do not know if the range in question is constructed that way.

12 posted on 04/04/2012 9:42:23 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

The first question I would be asking is which one was there first, the gun range or the golf course?

If the range was there first, case dismissed the course is libel due to poor due diligence in making sure they were in a safe location.

If the golf course was there first, then you go to the range and see if it is even possible for a shot to get off range.


13 posted on 04/04/2012 9:52:00 AM PDT by commish (Freedom tastes sweetest to those who have fought to preserve it.)
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To: muawiyah
NOTE: Spent some time on an observation point overlooking the East German border years ago. The Russians had an artillery range about 5 miles away where they'd do live fire exercises at night with short load rounds.

You ever play golf in Berlin? I'm not a golfer but got shanghaied to play in a charity tournament once when stationed there. I think the front 9 was right along the Wall and the back 9 snug up against the front 9.

Made for some interesting hooks and slices :)

14 posted on 04/04/2012 10:07:24 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici (The Democrat Ku Klux Klan is alive and well as the New Black Panthers, CBC and the NAACP)
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To: marktwain

Any of these stories mentioned the caliber of the bullet yet?


15 posted on 04/04/2012 10:08:49 AM PDT by VeniVidiVici (The Democrat Ku Klux Klan is alive and well as the New Black Panthers, CBC and the NAACP)
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To: commish

Mission Del Lago was there long before A Place To Shoot.


16 posted on 04/04/2012 10:44:36 AM PDT by jagusafr ("Write in Palin and prepare for war...")
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To: commish

“The first question I would be asking is which one was there first, the gun range or the golf course?”

Someone was shot, who was there first doesn’t matter.

I would agree if it was a noise based concern.


17 posted on 04/04/2012 11:01:41 AM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: VeniVidiVici

Now, if you were one of these complainants, why would you want to spoil things with the introduction of objective fact? I have not seen any mention of caliber, bullet type, or weight.


18 posted on 04/04/2012 1:42:55 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: VeniVidiVici
"You ever play golf in Berlin?"

The course at Pan Mun Jom is far more challenging :-)


19 posted on 04/04/2012 1:51:20 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: commish

Here is a link to an article with a bit more information and a map:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2868170/posts?page=1


20 posted on 04/04/2012 1:58:45 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: commish; All

Here is a link to an article with a bit more information and a map:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2868170/posts?page=1


21 posted on 04/04/2012 1:59:25 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: driftdiver

Seriously, at some point under some circumstances (dead bodies all about) your basic principles of planning and zoning just simply break down.


22 posted on 04/04/2012 2:18:29 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: driftdiver; All

More articles that shed a little light on the golf course gun shot.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2868175/posts

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2868179/posts


23 posted on 04/04/2012 2:23:02 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: jagusafr; All

This article says that the range was there first:

The golf course is city-owned and privately operated. It opened in 1989. The shooting range which operates within a few miles of the course opened about 35 years ago.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2868175/posts


24 posted on 04/04/2012 2:25:11 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: VeniVidiVici; All
Finally, I found a story that mentions the caliber. It was .223:

Whether what whizzed by the two employees golfing at the 15th hole on Monday was definitely a bullet is one thing but there's no doubt a stray .223-caliber round had to be removed from Flores’ sternum.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2868186/posts

25 posted on 04/04/2012 2:34:15 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Quite a surprise to me! I’ve lived here for 36 years and hadn’t heard of the range till they started running radio ads last year. Color me slightly chastened...


26 posted on 04/04/2012 2:36:22 PM PDT by jagusafr ("Write in Palin and prepare for war...")
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To: SargeK; All

3,600 meters is 2.23 miles.

M16/A2 shoots a 5.56mm/.223 cartridge:

28
Describe the ranges for the M16/A2 Rifle.

* Maximum Range - 3,600 meters

* Max Effective Range for a Point Target - 550 meters

* Max Effective Range for an Area Target - 800 meters

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/m16a2/m16a2-study-guide.shtml


27 posted on 04/04/2012 2:55:57 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: SargeK; All

This link has a velocity listed for a .223 round at maximum range:

.223 Remington (55 gr SP BT)

Muzzle Velocity 3240 ft/s

Maximum Range 3875 yard, 2.20 mile

Impact Velocity 545 ft/s

http://askville.amazon.com/shooting-gun-bullet-travel/AnswerViewer.do?requestId=3928729


28 posted on 04/04/2012 3:03:21 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: Joe 6-pack
The course at Pan Mun Jom is far more challenging :-)

LOL! I'd say so! At least our minefield had a big ass wall in front of it.

29 posted on 04/04/2012 3:16:03 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (The Democrat Ku Klux Klan is alive and well as the New Black Panthers, CBC and the NAACP)
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To: marktwain

And it probably didn’t enter his sternum point first. I’m willing to bet it probably flopped against his chest and buried itself in his flesh.


30 posted on 04/04/2012 3:21:30 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (The Democrat Ku Klux Klan is alive and well as the New Black Panthers, CBC and the NAACP)
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To: marktwain

IMHO, the order to halt rifle fire isn’t unreasonable.

They can still have pistol fire safely.

Unless the range owns the golf course and can maintain public safety, then they need to be held accountable for the damages caused by the rounds straying from their range.

Likewise, a golf course is also liable for damage caused by stray golf balls off their property.

IMHO, I’d be more worried if I were a pilot in a small plane using VFR approach rules.


31 posted on 04/04/2012 3:27:18 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: marktwain
when he was struck by a stray bullet while playing the course's 12th hole,

Since when did drive-by shootings have to be in black neighborhoods?

32 posted on 04/04/2012 3:27:30 PM PDT by Hot Tabasco (No matter what you post here, someone's going to get pissed off......)
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To: marktwain

Accidents do happen but once someone is shot they need to get to the bottom of what happened. Either someone was irresponsible or the range is designed wrong.

I’d kinda doubt the bullet came from the range though.


33 posted on 04/04/2012 3:35:17 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: marktwain

From the one link - “All day long I heard gun shots and I was thinking that sounds kind of close”.

Seems like the bullet didn’t penetrate much which would be consistent with the 2 mile range. Depending on the layout I’d think the sound would be pretty faint.


34 posted on 04/04/2012 3:40:19 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver
Either someone was irresponsible or the range is designed wrong.

I'd say the range was designed properly. It was the dumbass that decided to put a golf course and a housing community behind it that should be shot.

Sort of like people moving in next to an airport then filing complaints about the noise.

35 posted on 04/04/2012 3:44:52 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (The Democrat Ku Klux Klan is alive and well as the New Black Panthers, CBC and the NAACP)
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To: VeniVidiVici

“I’d say the range was designed properly. It was the dumbass that decided to put a golf course and a housing community behind it that should be shot. “

So nobody should be able to use their property 2 miles behind a gun range? hogwash


36 posted on 04/04/2012 3:52:02 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: VeniVidiVici

It’s not a more challenging course from a technical standpoint, but the hazards are a bee-otch. :-)


37 posted on 04/04/2012 3:56:01 PM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: driftdiver; All
I’d kinda doubt the bullet came from the range though.

Exactly.

There is no evidence that the bullet came from the range. Zip. Zero.

There is just supposition that because there is a range within two miles, that the bullet came from the range.

I see no reason for riflery at the range to be shut down based on the allegation that the bullet came from the range, with nothing to support it.

The range has not had any incidents in 20 years.

38 posted on 04/04/2012 4:17:41 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: driftdiver
So nobody should be able to use their property 2 miles behind a gun range? hogwash

They are using it. But they were also aware when they bought the property that there was a shooting range a few miles away.

39 posted on 04/04/2012 4:38:59 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (The Democrat Ku Klux Klan is alive and well as the New Black Panthers, CBC and the NAACP)
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To: VeniVidiVici; All
And it probably didn’t enter his sternum point first. I’m willing to bet it probably flopped against his chest and buried itself in his flesh.

We simply do not know. It could have been fired 400 yards away, hit a twig, and been tumbling. Once bullets start to tumble, they lose energy very quickly.

40 posted on 04/04/2012 4:47:24 PM PDT by marktwain
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To: driftdiver; All

from Decal:

Go to the range’s website to read their side of this - it won’t make pleasant reading for pro-2A types, but nobody who’s lived in SA since Chairman Julian got elected mayor will be much surprised (”Rifle Range Legal Action” under the Home link).

http://aplacetoshoot.com/


41 posted on 04/05/2012 4:55:10 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain
Two miles away? Heard the shot? Smoke from the bullet hole?

Um... No. I smell a scam.

Prove the bullet came from that range, or STFU.

42 posted on 04/05/2012 5:49:26 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: jagusafr

Other way around. Mission was built in 1989. APTS was there for almost a decade before...


43 posted on 04/05/2012 5:53:21 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: marktwain

Judicial activism at its worst. Sounds like they are facing an uphill battle against the Mafia in control of San Antonio.


44 posted on 04/05/2012 6:01:25 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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