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Parting Ways [National Review fires John Derbyshire!]
NRO ^ | 2012-04-07 | Rich Lowry

Posted on 04/07/2012 4:24:15 PM PDT by cartan

Anyone who has read Derb in our pages knows he’s a deeply literate, funny, and incisive writer. I direct anyone who doubts his talents to his delightful first novel, “Seeing Calvin Coolidge in a Dream, or any one of his “Straggler” columns in the books section of NR. Derb is also maddening, outrageous, cranky, and provocative. His latest provocation, in a webzine, lurches from the politically incorrect to the nasty and indefensible. We never would have published it, but the main reason that people noticed it is that it is by a National Review writer. Derb is effectively using our name to get more oxygen for views with which we’d never associate ourselves otherwise. So there has to be a parting of the ways. Derb has long danced around the line on these issues, but this column is so outlandish it constitutes a kind of letter of resignation. It’s a free country, and Derb can write whatever he wants, wherever he wants. Just not in the pages of NR or NRO, or as someone associated with NR any longer.


TOPICS: Breaking News; Culture/Society; Extended News; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: derb; derby; derbyshire; girlymen; johnderbyshire; nationalreview; nr; nro; racerealism; realism; richlowry; truth
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To: cartan
Lowry is a punk. He was a decent political repoter but is way out of his league as editor. National Review was a great magazine under John O'Sullivan, who left (or was forced out, depending on the account) about 1999 - 2000. He served up strong meat, publishing Peter Brimelow on immigration and treating Murray and Herrnstein (authors of The Bell Curve) favorably on the issues of the heritability of intelligence, and race and intelligence. Neither did he shy away from the rampant social dysfunction of black America. He gave some ink to squishes like the third-world immigration enthusiast John J. Miller, but on balance took a hard and unapologetic conservative line, political correctness be damned. Soon after he left, National Review sharply reversed itself on its more controversial stands and I gave up my subscription (of some 10 years) in short order. I can't say I'm surprised it's come to this, though that makes it no less deplorable. Did Pat Buchanan box Lowry's ears on The McLaughlin Group today?
251 posted on 04/08/2012 8:46:45 PM PDT by eater-of-toast ("It is much more important to kill bad bills than to pass good ones." --Calvin Coolidge)
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To: chessplayer
The author of the article you linked had the following to say about Derbyshire:

Absolutely nothing that has happened in Derbyshire’s career since then has indicated that he didn’t mean exactly what he said to Kevin way back in 2003. This is the same man who once described welfare thusly:

Following the black riots of the 1960s, these concessions have also been seen by nonblacks as an implicit contract or treaty — that is, as nonblack America saying to black America: “We’ll give you this stuff if you promise not to break our windows.”

Are you disagreeing with Derbyshire's assertion? Or simply annoyed with him for saying it?

252 posted on 04/08/2012 8:50:03 PM PDT by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: stephenjohnbanker
I feel sorry for a lot of FReepers who became “conservative” in the last decade or so. They never knew what it was like to LEARN something from conservative sources that won't fit on a bumper sticker. Remember how excited we were when the new NR came to our mailbox?

Buckley was not blameless. He was always quite comfortable in high society and made his reputation by purging and sliming the unfashionable. The pathetic wuss, Lowry is trying to do the same.

Lowry bought himself a lot more guest spots as a “respectable” conservative on cable news and NPR. At the cost of his soul. Screw him.

Does ANYONE still pay for the print version of NR?

253 posted on 04/08/2012 8:58:16 PM PDT by Forgotten Amendments (Let's name a law after a kid who died because of CAFE standards!)
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To: bcsco
They’ve been held in an indentured position by the democrats for over a century (which perpetuates their constitutional ignorance). Churches and spiritual points of view are irrelevant to their political/moral decline. They’re still slaves, they simply don’t know it.

Kind of harsh, and characterizes their group as completely passive, which the history of slavery itself would belie, since many slaves made valiant attempts to escape and many fought in the Civil War, and every war America has fought. So I don't completely buy your black-n-white assessment of their situation. Consider our Jewish friends, who, although Jews are often tested and found to be statistically the most intelligent humans, also have been historically in the tank for the Democrats. It is also a mystery to me.

Setting race aside, the plot of the Italian classic novel Il Gattopardo (The Leopard) has to do with the Sicilian aristocracy vs the peasants, who, the book claims, just want to be peasants because it is a life of less responsibility. There is no racial difference; just a characterological one. I believe we need to do missionary work in our own country.

254 posted on 04/08/2012 9:23:14 PM PDT by Albion Wilde ("Real men are not threatened by strong women." -- Sarah Palin)
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To: Travis McGee
The truly poor in the third world would think that a housing project with running water, electricity and central air was a dream palace.

Maybe instead of high school, we should send our entitlement youth to work in an African country. Might open their eyes to how great a nation we have had in the near past.

255 posted on 04/08/2012 9:27:31 PM PDT by Albion Wilde ("Real men are not threatened by strong women." -- Sarah Palin)
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To: RIghtwardHo

It was fascinating to hear Buckley string words together so eloquently. He could really make you think.


256 posted on 04/08/2012 9:38:49 PM PDT by Bullish
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To: Lazlo in PA

[Lowry is a pussy. This shows how weak that magazine has become since Buckley died. Screw You NR.]

Lowry was on McLauclan a week or so ago going on about what an injustice Trayvon had suffered. Even IF Zimmerman is guilty, it just showed an incredible lack of judgement on Lowry’s part before any facts were in.

Time for NRO to see if they can get jobs with Frum or work at the NYR with Brooks.


257 posted on 04/08/2012 10:05:17 PM PDT by DaxtonBrown (http://www.futurnamics.com/reid.php)
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To: cartan

Dr. Hanson is good and some of his writings are only at NRO unless he’s putting them back on his website, he stopped for a while.


258 posted on 04/08/2012 10:15:01 PM PDT by Fledermaus (Democrats are dangerous and evil. Republicans are just useless.)
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To: LibFreeUSA

He has a website. There you can link to his infamous role in a Bruce Lee movie!


259 posted on 04/08/2012 10:18:37 PM PDT by Fledermaus (Democrats are dangerous and evil. Republicans are just useless.)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

He might have been satirical - I haven’t made up my mind yet.

But, let’s take some other statistics and take people (of any race) completely out of it.

There are a few people killed every few years by bears in the US. This has been true for centuries. Reading the Lewis and Clark journals, especially when they got into western Montana and met the Grizzly Bear, make for humorous reading these days.

Now, let’s say you’re a person who enjoys the outdoors.

You meet a bear.

What do you do?

Which informs your policy? The number of times that bears run from humans, or the maulings and deaths you read about? Do you carry arms or pepper spray in preparation for meeting a bear if you hike in bear country?

If the latter, congratulations, you’ve met the test for evolutionary stereotyping. You see a few events with maximal consequences, your brain says “Hmmm. Might want to learn something from that and formulate a pretty drastic response to ward off possibly lethal outcomes...”

Now, where bears are concerned, one might laud the aforementioned stereotyping as coherent and rational self-preservation policy and it isn’t too terribly controversial. Those who differ would claim that carrying arms or pepper spray is an “overreaction” and they might choose to wear bells or make noise, etc. Still, they’re forced to admit that there can be problems when one stumbles into the wrong place at the wrong time with bears. No one gets shouted down over this issue, we agree on the general facts that bears are apex predators and they can (and do) maul and kill humans.

Let’s now switch back to the subject at hand. Only the delusional deny that there are incidents where whites targeted for their race by blacks. Only the delusional will go walking through certain urban black neighborhoods while being white or Asian. I personally got “the talk” from a little old lady who happened to be black when I was in DC. I was walking southeast out of the capitol district, crossed a street (can’t remember which) and she was waiting for the orthogonal light on the other side of my street. Upon arriving on her corner, she buttonholed me immediately and told me “Son, turn around and go back where from you came. Please.” And she explained why, and I suspect in today’s racial huckster environment, she’d be shouted down.

I followed her advice and, when my light came again, I reversed course.

Now, was she offering advice based on statistics or individuals? I rather suspect she was operating off statistics and likelihoods. And that’s simply smart policy, as with bears in the woods. You might not know every bear. You can’t predict every outcome with every bear. But you can look at the stats and say “There is a significant, non-zero likelihood of potential great bodily harm, assault or even death by ignoring the statistics and going into certain places.”

The recent incidents of black wildings would appear to dispute your assertion that “...neither a random white or a random black are likely to kill anybody.” Let’s not worry about being killed, specifically, but broaden the spectrum of crimes to include assault, rape, robbery, etc.

But three examples out of many more:

http://www.ajc.com/news/in-teen-beating-death-735285.html

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2009109978_apusiowacitybeatings.html

And the events in Philly, which I’m sure you’ve heard more about in your news markets.

Another would be the flash mob of black youths robbing a store near the Martin rallies in Florida recently.

The point is, these events are on a rapid upwards trend. People want to ignore the national trend of flash mobs of black youths robbing stores, beating people on streets and in crowded venues, but they’re real, they’re not specific to one urban area and they’re on the increase. They’re attacking at random, in broad daylight. All of this should be uncontested statistical fact, but too many people want to look the other way and pretend it isn’t happening.

Derb appears to have been cataloging these events, if in no other way than having a good memory for news stories, and offering rational advice, based upon what he sees happening and possibly extrapolating beyond the time of his death, which might be near at hand from what I’ve read. He’s a man who no longer need suffer any fools, and he has the ultimate liberty to speak his mind... and I believe he just did so.


260 posted on 04/08/2012 10:22:38 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: big'ol_freeper

And what Coulter is doing for Romney is different from what NR/NRO has been doing for Romney... how?

NR was backing Romney in 2008 as well.


261 posted on 04/08/2012 10:26:01 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: chessplayer

Yes on Derb. The man was unflinchingly honest, unlike the tawny blue-bloods who live in blue-state enclaves... and claim to be so tolerant and enlightened, but want to make sure that the mobs are given enough bread and circuses to stay out of their neighborhoods.

Or, let’s turn this on it’s head: What about the black community? Are they racist? Well, yes. The anti-semitism in the black community is given a pass, because no one dares call blacks racist. Well, they are.

And I don’t mean just Calypso Louie, either:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/black98.html


262 posted on 04/08/2012 10:33:27 PM PDT by NVDave
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To: Sherman Logan

“This is the biggest issue of our time.....What do we do when larger and larger numbers of our people are obsolete?”

Yes, the same question I've been asking myself for a while.

Whimsically, I've suggested that taxpayers give a state-of-the-art robot to every graduating high school senior.

Program it, re-engineer it, duplicate it in any way you like, then set it loose in the work force, where it, or a whole army of it's, go to work for you each day, or manage your business.

The math seems basic.

If robotic productivity doubles each decade - probably an underestimate - in 100 years robots will be 500 times more productive than today.

By 2112, it seems likely that a cost competitive robot or machine will be available for almost every blue collar job that exists in the world economy today.

You mentioned robotic vehicles.

I think your time line may be a bit short, but the consequences will be enormous.

I have to believe that car wrecks and injuries will decline dramatically.

That will impact health care jobs, insurance jobs, vehicle repair jobs, even law enforcement jobs.

Coming sooner will be “Cloud Computing.”

The economies of scale will be staggering.

I have to believe that corporate IT jobs will stagnate, or maybe even decline in coming decades.

Further up the food chain there's the IBM “Watson Computer” that beat the two best “Jeopardy” players in the world.

How long can it be before a Physician's Assistant with a computer can do the work of a medical doctor?

How long can it be before a Registered Nurse with a “Da Vinci Surgical System” can do the work of a surgeon?

Economically, long term, a century in the future, I am much more optimistic than you.

I see the possibility that only 20% or so of the world's best minds and best workers will be in the work force.

The other 80% will be drawing a dividend check from billions of machines and robots, much the same way that Alaska residents draw dividend checks from their oil wells.

Short term, the next decade or so, I'm very pessimistic.

There is no calm, painless way to claw our way out of massive government debt, massive unfunded liabilities, and massive money printing.

263 posted on 04/08/2012 10:52:12 PM PDT by zeestephen
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To: Travis McGee; Mr Rogers; Jim Robinson; CharlesWayneCT; onyx; kristinn; Pelham; jpsb; chessplayer; ..
228 posted on Sun Apr 08 2012 15:51:50 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by jpsb: “Freepers might want to keep the above in mind. Getting tagged as a racist site is bad news for all of us. Just saying.”

You are absolutely right. This is serious and some (not all, or even many) of the comments on this thread are not helping.

This thread is going to be watched by people far outside Free Republic and it is going to do damage if the racist allegations are not dealt with.

I've lived in the inner city in college and graduate school, and was attending a church that successfully made the transition from being predominantly white to predominantly black in a rapidly changing neighborhood. I'm not stupid, I took precautions then, and I would take precautions today. The same should be done by Hispanics going into predominantly black neighborhoods, or blacks going into Vietnamese neighborhoods, or minorities of any race going into many white neighborhoods. It's the same thing I do when I'm in Korea -- I will be "profiled" if I don't dress and act like an American businessman, because Americans unfortunately have earned a reputation for sexual immorality and bad behavior around Asian women. (American businessmen have their own problems in that area, but at least they're viewed as paying customers.)

My problem is with people who say considerably more than that, blaming the entire race rather than realizing some individuals of all races are really, really bad.

Virtually all people on Free Republic are people who oppose liberalism for a wide variety of reasons. That's good. A very small percentage of FReepers apparently hold some opinions which don't reflect the management's statement, posted here: “Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts.”

184 posted on Sun Apr 08 2012 07:56:47 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by Travis McGee: “Nice tap dance and subject evasion. Care to actually answer the question? This question opposes objective truth to a PC “third rail of doom.” It's rather important to answer it, and not just evade it. But if you must evade it, you are telling us that your PC fear of the third rail is greater than your desire to seek the truth anywhere it lies.”

It is not a tap dance to say that Jim Robinson gets to define what is and is not allowed on his own website. The rule is this: “Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts.”

He gets to define that. I may have some pretty strong opinions about what constitutes racism, but it's his call, not mine.

@ chessplayer re. post 249: I make no claims to be an expert on Derbyshire. That's not the point of my concern; my concern is Free Republic is being accused of being racist when that describes, at most, a tiny minority of Freepers. But the links you and others post to Derbyshire’s views with headlines such as “I am a racist” are disturbing, to say the least.

185 posted on Sun Apr 08 2012 07:59:15 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by Travis McGee: “Exactly correct. There is no way a conservative can please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff. It's a fool's errand to try to gain the favor or those who want you dead.”

Often true, but not always. I think there may be quite a few people on Free Republic who are former liberals. Even the head of the Minutemen went out at CPAC to have a meeting with the Occupy people to see if they could have a useful discussion, and it seems to have been of some benefit.

The real point, however, is that the Atlantic has accused Free Republic of being racist, and cited a photoshopped picture of Barack Obama decked out with a bone in his nose. Can we agree that's not exactly helpful to the conservative cause?

Our goal is to win elections, and that requires getting middle-of-the-road people to vote for conservative candidates.

206 posted on Sun Apr 08 2012 11:21:33 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by Pelham (Marco Rubio, la raza trojan horse.): “Congratulations! You’ve earned your Politically Correct Merit Badge.”

Great. Now you're going to blame Marco Rubio as a “La Raza Trojan Horse.” I've got my problems with Rubio, chief of them being his support for Mitt Romney, but I'll happily encourage anti-Communist Cubans and I think people who have suffered persecution of their families under Communism make very good allies.

As for being politically correct, I'm a right-wing conservative in my politics and an evangelical Christian in my faith, and if it weren't for the fact that I'm a Calvinist, I'd happily use the word “fundamentalist” to describe myself. My Korean niece who lives with us attends an independent fundamental Baptist school in which her classmates include Asians, Hispanics and blacks, and in which the only “discrimination” against her is that she's not a Baptist, and that's entirely legitimate coming from a private church-run Baptist school.

We need more conservative Christians who think that way, and who base their beliefs on doctrine, not race.

I've gone down this road with racist bigots in my own conservative Christian circles who cite totally irrelevant verses of Scripture to argue against interracial marriage. That's nonsense; the point is barring marriage between believers and unbelievers. Racism is just as nonsensical from secular conservatives as religious conservatives.

235 posted on Sun Apr 08 2012 17:58:52 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by sargon: “Rather than falling into the trap of governing our behavior towards others based on racial generalizations, I believe it will always be better to judge people individually, by the content of their character.”

203 posted on Sun Apr 08 2012 10:43:59 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by CharlesWayneCT: “It was a mis-use of statistics to suggest a larger problem than really exists, in order to justify a wholesale treatment of a race of people differently because of the actions of a few.”

I believe Sargon and CharlesWayneCT are absolutely right here.

Some black people are fine. Some black people aren't. Same can be said for whites, Asians, Hispanics, or any other ethnic group. Deal with people as individuals and most of the problems go away.

In closing, for those who are making racist comments but happen to have Italian, Irish, or southern European heritage, we'd better tread very carefully here. Some pretty horrible things were said a hundred years ago about the propensity toward crime of “wops” and “dagos” like my Italian ancestors. Efforts were made to bar immigration from Italy because its people were supposedly racially inferior. The Chinese Exclusion Act was successfully passed to almost totally forbid immigration from Asia, despite Asians today having a stereotype of being high achievers.

Margaret Sanger and the eugenically-inclined founders of Planned Parenthood had more targets in mind than just black people. To the tiny minority of conservatives who care about race-based politics: be careful about getting on a race-based bandwagon. It will take you places you do not want to go.

264 posted on 04/09/2012 3:33:57 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: Forgotten Amendments
253 posted on Sun Apr 08 2012 22:58:16 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by Forgotten Amendments: “I feel sorry for a lot of FReepers who became “conservative” in the last decade or so. They never knew what it was like to LEARN something from conservative sources that won't fit on a bumper sticker. Remember how excited we were when the new NR came to our mailbox?”

You sure hit that nail on the head!

I will never criticize Rush Limbaugh and similar conservative commentators for popularizing conservatism. Conservatives need to fight on both the popular and the academic levels. We need to refute arguments, not just rebut them — and if conservatives don't know the difference between refuting and rebutting, it says a lot about our education system.

As valuable as popular conservative media area, not everything can or should be turned into a soundbite, and we need both a popular and an academic press to win this war.

265 posted on 04/09/2012 3:40:21 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: darrellmaurina

@ chessplayer re. post 249: I make no claims to be an expert on Derbyshire. That’s not the point of my concern; my concern is Free Republic is being accused of being racist when that describes, at most, a tiny minority of Freepers. But the links you and others post to Derbyshire’s views with headlines such as “I am a racist” are disturbing, to say the least.


I only put it there to show that tiny minority of FReepers what kind of a person they think is so wonderful. I agree there should be no room for racism, here.


266 posted on 04/09/2012 4:22:38 AM PDT by chessplayer
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To: NVDave

Yes on Derb. The man was unflinchingly honest,


He’s a racist. Just because he may get something right once in a while doesn’t mean he should be admired.


267 posted on 04/09/2012 4:34:38 AM PDT by chessplayer
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To: darrellmaurina

Okay, two tap dances in a row, I’ll take that as “I’m afraid to violate PC taboos.”


268 posted on 04/09/2012 4:49:45 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Albion Wilde

You’ve got that right!


269 posted on 04/09/2012 4:51:50 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Travis McGee; Jim Robinson
Travis, I have trouble seeing why you think I'm “afraid to violate PC taboos” because I say Jim Robinson, not me, gets to define the meaning of his words when he says “Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts.”

If you want to know what I believe, I have huge problems with homosexual activism. I believe gay marriage is an abomination that invites the wrath of God upon nations. I believe Islam is not only a false religion but a political danger to America and any other non-Islamic nation.

All of those views are taught to me by my Bible and none of those are very “PC” by current standards.

I'm not going to define Jim Robinson's words for him, but I will define mine. On race, I couldn't care less what somebody’s skin color may be; I care a great deal what they believe. Most conservatives figured out long ago that anti-Communists from Cuba, Vietnam, and South Korea believe exactly the same thing we believe, and might be a lot angrier about it than those of us whose contact with liberal extremism is limited to university settings.

White racism is dying out. It's politically irrelevant except in a few small pockets, most of which won't be around in a couple more generations. I don't agree with Herman Cain or Col. West or Marco Rubio about everything — especially Mitt Romeny, in Rubio’s case — but I do know we need many more black and Hispanic conservatives in politics.

270 posted on 04/09/2012 5:04:07 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: chessplayer
266 posted on Mon Apr 09 2012 06:22:38 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by chessplayer: “I only put it there to show that tiny minority of FReepers what kind of a person they think is so wonderful. I agree there should be no room for racism, here.”

Understood and agreed, Chessplayer. I don't know enough about Derbyshire to have an opinion on him. I do have strong opinions about racism. There's no excuse for blaming people for the color of their skin, only for what they have or have not done.

271 posted on 04/09/2012 5:11:31 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: wardaddy

trumandogz needed to go on his first post.


272 posted on 04/09/2012 5:17:57 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Shut up and drill.)
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To: darrellmaurina
Ask a simple question, get a convoluted series of tap dances and evasions. That's okay, I get it.
273 posted on 04/09/2012 5:18:50 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: CatherineofAragon

Let’s get married.


274 posted on 04/09/2012 5:20:10 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Shut up and drill.)
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To: NoLibZone

You have that absolutely, drop dead correct with one clarification; the “U.S.” is a failed state. The sooner the states go their own way, the better for everyone.


275 posted on 04/09/2012 5:33:32 AM PDT by Rich21IE
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To: zeestephen
Actually, two to the tenth power is 1000x, not 500x. But who;s picking nits?There is no calm, painless way to claw our way out of massive government debt, massive unfunded liabilities, and massive money printing.

I quite agree. Which is why I would be very interested in a calm, rational discussion by economists of what is the least disruptive way to make it to the other side.

Despite looking, I have been unable to find any such discussion.

I see the possibility that only 20% or so of the world's best minds and best workers will be in the work force. The other 80% will be drawing a dividend check from billions of machines and robots, much the same way that Alaska residents draw dividend checks from their oil wells.

If I remember rightly, Murray et all discussed this in The Bell Curve. Among huge other consequences for society, it will exactly reverse the social status markers that have existed forever.

Not so much in USA, but certainly in Europe it was always a status marker to NOT work. This demonstrated you were a member of the gentry.

In the near-distant future, having a "real job" will demonstrate extreme intelligence and creativity.

More critically, what does that 80% of the population DO with their time? Most people do not handle massive amounts of leisure time well. As can be seen by the histories of lottery winners.

I'm really curious about these issues, but with the exceptions of some SF writers, there is almost no discussion of them.

Also, your scenario would seem to require the end of a market based economy, as otherwise why would the 20% share the wealth they produce more or less equally with the other 80%?

276 posted on 04/09/2012 6:28:55 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Travis McGee; reaganaut1; CharlesWayneCT; Flotsam_Jetsome; Pelham; jpsb; sargon; chessplayer; ...
273 posted on Mon Apr 09 2012 07:18:50 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by Travis McGee: “Ask a simple question, get a convoluted series of tap dances and evasions. That's okay, I get it.”

Travis, it is no evasion to tell you that because racism is forbidden by Free Republic, I've been saying repeatedly that I'm not going to get into defining it because then I'm saying whether people in “gray areas” should be banned or not. I don't run this website and I will not make that kind of statement.

I don't avoid racial issues. I'm white. In college and graduate school, I lived in the inner city and attended a church that changed from being predominantly white to being predominantly black. I'm married to a Korean woman I met in graduate school, and in the not-too-distant past, I've attended Korean Presbyterian churches where not only was I one of the few white people, the language of the church was not English. My Korean niece attends a Christian school run by a fundamental Baptist church which is interracial in both the school's students and the church membership. I live in an upper-class neighborhood where most residents are white, but there are a number of black families, generally retired or active-duty military.

Kind of hard for me to tap dance around racial issues, don't you think?

This was the original question:

112 posted on Sat Apr 07 2012 21:38:09 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by reaganaut1: “Define ‘racism’. Is doubting that all races are equally intelligent on average ‘racist’?”

If you're asking my personal views I could tell you what I think, but I already did. Post 270: “On race, I couldn't care less what somebody’s skin color may be; I care a great deal what they believe.” Post 271: “I do have strong opinions about racism. There's no excuse for blaming people for the color of their skin, only for what they have or have not done.”

I know smart white people. I know stupid white people. I know smart and stupid blacks, Hispanics and Asians.

That last group (Asians) makes me very hesitant to say intelligence is racially based. In the 1800s, Asian immigrants were used as “coolie labor” and their reputation was based on some very bad stereotypes. Today, Asians are regarded as a “model minority” and the stereotype is that they're very intelligent.

What changed? I don't think it was the gene pool.

Some people are going to point out, correctly so, that there is a genetic basis for being tall or being short, having blue eyes or brown eyes, or having blond hair or black hair. Moving from that, they ask if there's a genetic basis for intelligence. I suppose as a purely theoretical question, that, like anything else, is open to research, but as we saw with the global warming debacle, scientific conclusions are all too often based on something other than “pure science,” whatever that term may mean.

If conservatives want to go down the road of race-based genetic studies of intelligence and cultural behavior, it would be wise to look at what the founders of Planned Parenthood and the Germans did with such studies. Black people have not been the only targets of such “research.” Jews, southern Europeans, and numerous other “white” groups were once blamed for being genetically inferior.

If we start down that road, it will take us places we do not want to go.

My strong suspicion is intelligence is based mostly on the way parents raised their kids. Is little Johnny encouraged to read, or told to go outside and play? Is little Jenny encouraged to study, or told that being a responsible family member means taking care of her little sisters when she gets home from school? Conservative white Americans will give different answers to those questions, and those answers will likely have a lot to do with how the kids turn out. And by the way, I don't think everybody needs to go to college — there's absolutely nothing wrong with being a manual laborer or a housewife if that's what somebody wants to do with their life, especially if it's what they're good at doing.

Now, Travis, have I given you your answer?

If the underlying question is my views on Charles Murray and the Bell Curve, you're not going to get me to give strong opinions on that. It's been a long time since I've read the book. I think I heard Murray speak at a college lecture back in the 1990s (I know I intended to go but don't remember if I actually made it or not) and my recollection is most of the people reacting against him weren't interacting with his arguments. I don't want to be one of those people. If we're going to get into the question of whether intelligence is genetically based, I can say that I don't see the evidence for that and I think a much better case can be made that culture is the primary factor in academic achievement of different groups, but I'm not going to publicly criticize a book I haven't read for a very long time.

277 posted on 04/09/2012 6:48:04 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: darrellmaurina
If conservatives want to go down the road of race-based genetic studies of intelligence and cultural behavior, it would be wise to look at what the founders of Planned Parenthood and the Germans did with such studies. Black people have not been the only targets of such “research.” Jews, southern Europeans, and numerous other “white” groups were once blamed for being genetically inferior.

Your criticism here is of bad science, which of course is not really science at all.

What you are essentially saying, and it's not actually entirely unreasonable, is that we should not do such studies (using good science) because we might not like what we find. From a standpoint of the effect on society of such findings, you are probably exactly right.

The problem is that "we" do not control what studies will be done. The Chinese, for one example, have a cultural imperative that is thousands of years old that the Chinese are superior. They are quite likely to fund studies, again using good science, to try to prove it. They WANT to find out that Chinese are intellectually superior.

278 posted on 04/09/2012 7:08:22 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
278 posted on Mon Apr 09 2012 09:08:22 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by Sherman Logan: “Your criticism here is of bad science, which of course is not really science at all. What you are essentially saying, and it's not actually entirely unreasonable, is that we should not do such studies (using good science) because we might not like what we find. From a standpoint of the effect on society of such findings, you are probably exactly right. The problem is that “we” do not control what studies will be done. The Chinese, for one example, have a cultural imperative that is thousands of years old that the Chinese are superior. They are quite likely to fund studies, again using good science, to try to prove it. They WANT to find out that Chinese are intellectually superior.”

I think you've asked the best question yet on this thread.

Should we avoid certain subjects in scientific research because we don't like where they may lead? No, I don't want to say that.

On the other hand, I'm not going to choose to do that research. I have no shame in saying many of my fundamental decisions on life issues are based on theology, not science. If someone else wants to do that research, that's up to them. I think a better subject would be the relationship between cultural values and intelligence rather than between gene pools and intelligence, since I believe the way parents raise their children is the primary factor in how children turn out.

And your point about the Chinese is quite interesting. The tremendous racial bigotry in much of Asia against black people exceeds anything in modern America or Europe. If someone is going to do major genetic-based research on racial intelligence, it's much more likely to happen in Asia than in the West, and we may have to deal with a “Bell Curve” book being published by Chinese authors seeking to “prove” that Chinese genetics and culture combine to make their race the natural leaders of the lesser peoples of the world.

I continue to believe intelligence is mostly based on how parents raise their children, but modern Asians are perhaps best suited to make a credible case for intelligence being based on race, with their race being better than ours.

Let's be careful where this racial theorizing can take us. I'm not at all convinced that the decline of Europe, America, and Western civilization in general gives much reason to believe in Anglo-Saxon or Northern European racial superiority.

279 posted on 04/09/2012 7:30:59 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: Lazamataz

With her name she knows she won’t be the last..


280 posted on 04/09/2012 8:20:27 AM PDT by wardaddy (I am a social conservative. My political party left me(again). They can go to hell in a bucket.)
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To: Forgotten Amendments

” I feel sorry for a lot of FReepers who became “conservative” in the last decade or so. They never knew what it was like to LEARN something from conservative sources that won’t fit on a bumper sticker. Remember how excited we were when the new NR came to our mailbox?”

I do.


281 posted on 04/09/2012 8:23:36 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: Travis McGee

what sort of poster pings JR to their every utterance about who or who is not an appropriate poster here with regards to race?

a wishful tattletale maybe?

some folks are prisoner to the cultural narrative or they have personal reasons..


282 posted on 04/09/2012 8:25:26 AM PDT by wardaddy (I am a social conservative. My political party left me(again). They can go to hell in a bucket.)
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To: Lazamataz
"Let’s get married."

You just want somebody to talk "sharply" to you.

283 posted on 04/09/2012 8:31:43 AM PDT by CatherineofAragon (I can haz Romney's defeat?)
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To: CatherineofAragon

No, I just admire a woman with mettle.


284 posted on 04/09/2012 8:33:10 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Shut up and drill.)
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To: wardaddy
"With her name she knows she won’t be the last.."

LOL, I must need more coffee....it took me a minute.

285 posted on 04/09/2012 8:34:28 AM PDT by CatherineofAragon (I can haz Romney's defeat?)
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To: eater-of-toast

Good post


286 posted on 04/09/2012 8:36:14 AM PDT by wardaddy (I am a social conservative. My political party left me(again). They can go to hell in a bucket.)
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To: darrellmaurina; Sherman Logan

You wrote: “..I think a better subject would be the relationship between cultural values and intelligence rather than between gene pools and intelligence, since I believe the way parents raise their children is the primary factor in how children turn out.”

That has already been done by Charles Murray in his just published book, “Coming Apart”:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2843097/posts?page=21#21

bttt


287 posted on 04/09/2012 8:37:12 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ("Andrew loved the battle and he knew the stakes." ~ Mark Levin 3/2/12)
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To: darrellmaurina; Travis McGee

” Travis, I have trouble seeing why you think I’m “afraid to violate PC taboos” because I say Jim Robinson, not me, gets to define the meaning of his words when he says “Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts.”

Travis has been here 12 years, and if Jim Rob wants to speak to him, he knows how to do it. We don’t need your santimonious verbosity either.


288 posted on 04/09/2012 8:39:39 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: Lazamataz

Thanks...but I’m just fed up beyond the point of all return, you know? Taking crap is not an option or I’ll explode.


289 posted on 04/09/2012 8:46:53 AM PDT by CatherineofAragon (I can haz Romney's defeat?)
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To: CatherineofAragon

If you do explode, you will be labeled a female suicide bomber.


290 posted on 04/09/2012 8:49:10 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Shut up and drill.)
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To: Rich21IE
the “U.S.” is a failed state. The sooner the states go their own way, the better for everyone.

That would be great for conservatives, but socialists like Obama cannot permit it.

Businesses in all the socialist states would flee to the conservative, free market ones...leaving Obama's blue states (California comes to mind) holding the bag.

291 posted on 04/09/2012 8:49:42 AM PDT by RoosterRedux
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To: chessplayer

In my experience, the people claiming to NOT be racists in the most pious language, and especially those who are pointing quavering fingers at others claiming they are racists... are the worst racists of all. They’re just oh-so-much more polite and genteel about it.

That’s well seen in the bluebloods from the northeast... eg, the NR/NRO staff.

Too many Americans bleat on endlessly about racism, as tho we alone invented it. I’ve got a newsflash for them: Go to Asia. You’ll see the varsity league racists out in force.

Quite frankly, I’ve heard this crap about “XYZ is raaaacist” as an attempt to shield Obama and his political cronies from critical review so often, I’m now of a mind to say “Yes, and *so what?* Are the facts stated by this racist wrong? Then you’re not going to make them go away by calling him a racist.”


292 posted on 04/09/2012 8:52:45 AM PDT by NVDave
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To: Lazamataz

True...can’t have that. So to continue not taking crap is the only avenue.


293 posted on 04/09/2012 8:57:26 AM PDT by CatherineofAragon (I can haz Romney's defeat?)
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To: Matchett-PI; darrellmaurina

I believe it is quite obvious that intelligence is largely though not exclusively inherited. We all know that some people are born geniuses and others mentally retarded. It is reasonable to assume all other humans differ in intelligence between these extremes on the standard bell curve for most distributions of traits.

IQ, which is an attempt to measure intelligence, is indeed found on such a curve.

I believe the evidence is very strong that each human is born with a particular intelligence potential. That potential can be achieved under ideal circumstances. Any circumstances less than ideal will result in a level of intelligence at adulthood something less.

This is similar to height and other physical characteristics. Growth can be stunted by malnutrition, disease and other things, but the genetic potential cannot be exceeded regardless of the environment.

Now whether average genetic potential for intelligence differs by race is an entirely different question. It is fairly obvious, at least to me, that it could be answered by an appropriately designed investigation.

Whether as a society we find the potential for disruption so great that we ban such studies is again a different question.

A third question is what other fields of study do we ban because we are afraid of what we might find.


294 posted on 04/09/2012 8:57:38 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Fledermaus
Yes, I exaggerated a little; Hanson is certainly good, as well as McCarthy and a few others. Also Thomas Sowell, of course, although I don’t think of him as NR staff.
295 posted on 04/09/2012 8:59:24 AM PDT by cartan
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To: Sherman Logan
Sherman, the points that you are raising are actually an interesting and potentially useful discussion.

On some other points here, this thread went into directions I'm not at all happy about, and I'm not going to hide that. But anyone who thinks I want to ban people or try to get them in trouble for what they've posted doesn't know me — I believe in debating people when I disagree, not shutting down discussions. I think free discussion of ideas is usually how we move forward as a society. I don't remember ever hitting the abuse button on any thread on Free Republic, you won't hear calls for banning coming from me, and that is precisely why I didn't want to get into the details of defining the meaning of something like “racism” which is specifically forbidden by the posting rules.

I have major concerns with the Atlantic's attack on Free Republic because I believe it is both false and dangerous. Fortunately some of that seems to have been shot down on the Atlantic's own comment board by a number of different people saying the truth, namely, that Free Republic isn't racist.

I asked for a response from Free Republic's management, not to what is being said here on this thread, but to what was said about Free Republic on the Atlantic. It's been made clear over on the other Derbyshire thread that there won't be an official response to the Atlantic. That's their call, not mine. End of issue regarding responding to the Atlantic, as far as I'm concerned.

Back on track: I wouldn't be surprised if John Derbyshire and possibly Charles Murray are reading and perhaps posting here. Discussing these issues with them might be interesting. It's the old nature-nurture debate, and that's been going on for a very long time. They can do and should be able to do any research they want and write about it in any publication that wants to print their views. That's what the First Amendment is for.

296 posted on 04/09/2012 10:06:31 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: darrellmaurina
You might be surprised to know I pretty much agree with you.

It's difficult for me to think how discovering indisputable scientific evidence that ethnic groups differ in average intelligence, and that this difference is rooted in genetics will somehow improve race relations. I wouldn't be surprised if it made them worse.

That said, I think it's like putting the nuclear genie back in the ignorance bottle. If something can be done, sooner or later someone will do it. Can't be prevented without a system of control that would require a truly all-powerful government, which would be a cure a great deal worse than the disease.

What I find most interesting is the implication of thinking that fewer legal and political rights for blacks would be proper if they were shown indisputably to have lower average intelligence. What does this say about our attitudes towards those, of any race, who realy do have less intelligence? Lincoln had a highly applicable quote as to this point, but I haven't been able to find it.

297 posted on 04/09/2012 11:33:33 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: darrellmaurina; wardaddy; Travis McGee; onyx; Flotsam_Jetsome; Jim Robinson

” On some other points here, this thread went into directions I’m not at all happy about, and I’m not going to hide that. But anyone who thinks I want to ban people or try to get them in trouble for what they’ve posted doesn’t know me “

We only know what you post, and pinging Jim Rob to every disagreement you have with a given FReeper is not my idea of “not trying to get people in trouble”

“I asked for a response from Free Republic’s management, not to what is being said here on this thread, but to what was said about Free Republic on the Atlantic. It’s been made clear over on the other Derbyshire thread that there won’t be an official response to the Atlantic. That’s their call, not mine “

Thank you for your magnaminity. Who cares what The Atlantic writes about anything?


298 posted on 04/09/2012 11:44:27 AM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: stephenjohnbanker; darrellmaurina; Jim Robinson; y'all
I apologize for not replying to earlier pings. I still haven't read either article and didn't feel qualified to reply.

If "The Atlantic" tried to sully Free Republic for being racist, it'll likely have the same result as in the past whenever FR has been either praised or sullied: a rise in membership, which can be both good and bad, dependent upon the crowd it attracts.

In this particular case, who the heck reads The Atlantic? Furthermore, who cares? LOL.

299 posted on 04/09/2012 11:55:40 AM PDT by onyx (SUPPORT FREE REPUBLIC, DONATE MONTHLY. If you want on Sarah Palin's Ping List, let me know.)
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To: onyx

” In this particular case, who the heck reads The Atlantic? Furthermore, who cares? LOL. “

Exactly : )


300 posted on 04/09/2012 12:09:29 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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