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Re: Derb (Mark Steyn defends him)
National Review ^ | April 9, 2012 | Mark Steyn

Posted on 04/09/2012 1:11:54 PM PDT by reaganaut1

Edited on 04/09/2012 6:18:18 PM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

I didn’t agree with Derb on many things, from Ron Paul and talk radio to God and science. For his part, he reckoned I was a bit of a wimp on what he called “the Great Unmentionables.” He thought that neuroscientists and geneticists’ understanding of race trumped my touching belief in “culture.” I’m not so sure: Why is Haiti Haiti and Barbados Barbados? Why is India India and Pakistan Pakistan? Skin color and biological determinism don’t get you very far on that.


(Excerpt) Read more at nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: derbyshire; johnderbyshire; marksteyn; nro; steyn
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I agree with Steyn.
1 posted on 04/09/2012 1:11:57 PM PDT by reaganaut1
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To: reaganaut1

So do I. Here’s an excellent article regarding this absurdity (no affiliation to the blog)

http://www.alternativeright.com/main/blogs/hbd-human-biodiversity/the-asymmetry-of-america/#disqus_thread


2 posted on 04/09/2012 1:17:44 PM PDT by mrsmel
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To: reaganaut1

What did Derbyshire say? I can’t find the essay about which NR had such a “hissy fit” Any help would be appreciated!


3 posted on 04/09/2012 1:18:25 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: reaganaut1

They didn’t fire Taki, who PUBLISHED the offending screed in his webzine!??

Talk about double standards.


4 posted on 04/09/2012 1:19:11 PM PDT by GeronL (The Right to Life came before the Right to Pursue Happiness)
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To: reaganaut1

Steyn is usually right on. I do agree. We don’t all share the exact same feelings on every topic, but to react like NR did b/c a few people got their panties in a twist is just that reactionary, and certainly not liberal in thought or action. (I don’t mean liberal/leftist, but liberal as in seeing more than one side and appreciating a dissenting view). Both sides are getting less liberal int hat sense. Since the Clinton admin, things have gotten exponentially more bitter, partisan, corrupt, and deceitful. This cannot go on. The fuse is way too short, as our president surely knows and is trying to trigger an assault, a reactionary action from our side so he has reason to declare martial law. It is being ramped up daily.


5 posted on 04/09/2012 1:21:26 PM PDT by Shery (in APO Land)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS

Agreed, I’d like to read the article and form my own opinion.


6 posted on 04/09/2012 1:21:44 PM PDT by traderrob6
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
Google “Derbyshire” and “The Talk” and search through the various pieces about the piece in question, then hit the “single page version” button and read.
7 posted on 04/09/2012 1:22:37 PM PDT by utahagen
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS

http://takimag.com/article/the_talk_nonblack_version_john_derbyshire/print#axzz1rZo5OLJZ


8 posted on 04/09/2012 1:23:05 PM PDT by mrsmel
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To: reaganaut1

Styne good again.


9 posted on 04/09/2012 1:24:18 PM PDT by next media
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To: traderrob6

Go to takimag.com to find the article.

On the NR masthead, Derb is listed as a Contributing Editor whilst the poor little Greek boy Taki is listed as a contributor.


10 posted on 04/09/2012 1:25:04 PM PDT by bagman
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To: reaganaut1

You don’t understand!

Anyone who says anything effective on the conservative side MUST be eliminated!

I no longer call myself “pro-life” because even pro-lifers have proven themselves to be anything but pro-life.


11 posted on 04/09/2012 1:27:19 PM PDT by papertyger ("And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if..."))
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To: reaganaut1
This is par for the course for National Review.

It's this sort of appeasing-the-unappeasable that led them to cut ties with Ann Coulter after she referred to the widows of certain 9/11 victims as "harpies" after they appeared on the cover of some magazine and voiced truther-style opinions in the accompanying article.

Which in turn led to Ann referring to National Review as a bunch of girlie-men.

If it wasn't for Rob Long, Mark Steyn and a couple of others, I would probably cancel my subscription to NR.

12 posted on 04/09/2012 1:28:20 PM PDT by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: reaganaut1

I actually don’t care for Derbyshire, and didn’t care for the article in question. I do like Steyn, and the only reason I ever click to National Review is to read Steyn when he’s there.

Steyn is right about one thing. If National Review eliminates everyone who has anything interesting to say, like Derb, like Coulter, at some point there is no particular reason to read them at all. I actually stopped reading them years ago after they pulled the plug on Coulter. I obviously don’t agree with everything she has to say, but she is, like Steyn, always worth the price of admission. Almost no one else at NR these days aside from Steyn catches my attention at all.


13 posted on 04/09/2012 1:37:34 PM PDT by marron
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To: utahagen

Thank you. I have read the article. It is presented lightly and contains a number of truths that need to be stated.


14 posted on 04/09/2012 1:37:56 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: mrsmel

Thank you. I have read the article. It is presented lightly and contains a number of truths that need to be stated.


15 posted on 04/09/2012 1:38:39 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS

Here it is

http://takimag.com/article/the_talk_nonblack_version_john_derbyshire#axzz1rY5I6FfY


16 posted on 04/09/2012 1:42:20 PM PDT by chesley (Eat what you want, and die like a man. Never trust anyone who hasn't been punched in the face)
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To: traderrob6

And here you go

http://takimag.com/article/the_talk_nonblack_version_john_derbyshire#axzz1rY5I6FfY


17 posted on 04/09/2012 1:44:37 PM PDT by chesley (Eat what you want, and die like a man. Never trust anyone who hasn't been punched in the face)
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To: chesley

THank you for the time and trouble involved in providing a link.


18 posted on 04/09/2012 1:49:27 PM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Texas Eagle

“If it wasn’t for Rob Long, Mark Steyn and a couple of others...”

Rob doesn’t write for NR. He writes for Ricochet.


19 posted on 04/09/2012 1:56:15 PM PDT by DesScorp
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS
When sharp contrasts are called for, NR is a mosh pit of pastels.

At one time they were conservative but today they are left of George Will, not quite socialist, but not too far removed.

Rarely ever read their articles.

20 posted on 04/09/2012 1:58:28 PM PDT by USS Alaska (Nuke the terrorists savages.)
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To: reaganaut1

Note the line mentioning race versus culture. This is not a race problem, but a cultural problem. The problem is the black-urban-gangsta sub-culture and cultural identity, not race or racial identity.


21 posted on 04/09/2012 2:04:33 PM PDT by LaRueLaDue
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To: AEMILIUS PAULUS

You/re welcome! No trouble at all, and i hope you enjoy the article :)


22 posted on 04/09/2012 2:07:02 PM PDT by chesley (Eat what you want, and die like a man. Never trust anyone who hasn't been punched in the face)
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To: reaganaut1; potlatch; PhilDragoo; bitt

Eric Holder said whites were too cowardly to have an honest discussion about race. I haven’t heard his comment, if any, on the sacking of Derbyshire.

Last year, a black robbery suspect was killed by police in my town. He repeatedly refused orders to get out of a car, then made a sudden move. Black eyewitnesses agreed with police accounts of what happened. An investigation resulted in a finding of justifiable homicide. The incident resulted in black leaders and others publicly sharing their experiences being treated rudely by police. It seemed a visceral thing for them.

The leaders and the white mayor agreed to have a multiracial honest conversation about race. Two weeks ago there were color photos in the
paper of smiling participants in the talks, oops, and their “facilitators.”

Come to find out, the U.S. Department of Justice got involved in the community brouhaha, and provided the facilitators. I’ll find out the local Interfaith Council representative’s take on the talks at a meeting tomorrow.


23 posted on 04/09/2012 2:08:45 PM PDT by ntnychik
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To: reaganaut1; Alamo-Girl; xzins
Please don't get me wrong. I am sure Mark Steyn is sincere here. I am sure he believes this stuff about "culture." Most educated people do. Most will continue to do so for a few more years, while the neuroscientists, geneticists, genomicists, anthropologists, paleontologists, and statistical sociologists sap away beneath them — until the ground gives way. (A professional academic biologist friend of mine is in the habit of snapping out, any time anyone takes refuge in this "culture" stuff: "Culture? Culture? What does that mean? Where does it come from? What are the upstream variables?")

So writes John Derbyshire. I gather he has been expelled from NR. The reason is not exactly clear to me....

However, it was just such stuff as exemplified in the above italics that on occasion rendered Derbyshire utterly unappealing to me on the pages of NR. So often I could find myself in sympathy with his views; and then he'd pop out with a statement like the above....

Very off-putting. To say the least.

It seems that Derbyshire has succumbed to "the spirit of the age," characterized by (among other things) the common expectation that science alone has all the answers.

Which in the end would seem to lead to a reduction of everything that exists to the statements and techniques of science. But since science to very large degree is about rendering reality into terms of abstract language — thereby giving us a "once-remove" description of Reality itself — on what basis should we expect science to be "exhaustive" in its descriptions? If its method requires it to dispense with all things immaterial and/or spiritual, does this mean that all things immaterial and/or spiritual instantly disappear from the real a/k/a natural world?

For Derbyshire, I gather, there seemingly are no "upstream variables." The world exhausts itself in chemistry, mechanics, physics and nothing more.... In the end, we humans are effectively only highly sophisticated machines, "robots"....

And I gather that is the defining difference between the worldview of a John Derbyshire, and the worldview of a Mark Steyn....

Myself, I tend to be found in Mark Steyn's camp....

JMHO FWIW

Thank you ever so much for posting this thought-provoking article, reaganaut1!

24 posted on 04/09/2012 2:16:52 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: reaganaut1

This was such an excellent post by Steyn, that all I can really think to say about it is: totally excellent.

Steyn is so articulate he actually leaves blabbermouth me speechless. It’s very weird, it’s like he says it all and then there is nothing else to say!

His dig about Taki being on the Masthead is PRICELESS! I wonder how long that will last? But Taki must be funding them, no?


25 posted on 04/09/2012 2:32:17 PM PDT by jocon307
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To: reaganaut1
While reading this I got the feeling Steyn was having a twinge of guilt. It must be painful for him to always see things so clearly. So, when someone like Derb who is not at the level of Steyn, goes down in martyrdom Steyn must be having thoughts that maybe he hasn't sufficiently made his points all these years. "Come to think of it, I should probably go for querying whether Weigel should go." It is almost like a Jew in Nazi Germany seeing his rude outspoken neighbor being taken and sent to the camps while the authorities let him remain because he is not as crude, more high class, and entertaining.

"PS If Derb’s piece is sufficiently beyond the pale that its author must be terminated immediately, why is its publisher — our old friend Taki — proudly listed on the NR masthead?" -- what is this? Is he trying to tempt them to fire him? Is he Hamlet, 'to be or not to be...' Steyn is a far better man than me but it is funny to see someone so solid to be momentarily off balance - it is so un-Steyn. He must be wondering for the first time in his life what has he been doing so wrong that tyrants are entertained by him but a crude lesser is sacrificed! PS he should cheer up they'll get around to him eventually.
26 posted on 04/09/2012 2:52:21 PM PDT by Duke of Milan
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To: Duke of Milan
It is insufficient to read Derbyshire’s article without reading some of the other versions he refers to in his first paragraphs. They are all black authors from the left telling how they supposedly had a “talk” with their youngster about survival in a prejudiced society. Derbyshire is making “a modest proposal” in a Swiftian sense.
27 posted on 04/09/2012 3:05:57 PM PDT by KC Burke (Newton's New First Law, Repeal and Restore!)
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To: Duke of Milan
It is insufficient to read Derbyshire’s article without reading some of the other versions he refers to in his first paragraphs. They are all black authors from the left telling how they supposedly had a “talk” with their youngster about survival in a prejudiced society. Derbyshire is making “a modest proposal” in a Swiftian sense.
28 posted on 04/09/2012 3:06:02 PM PDT by KC Burke (Newton's New First Law, Repeal and Restore!)
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To: reaganaut1

I don’t know why he associates with those wimps at NR. Oh well, as Dr. Johnson said, “A man is a fool who writes for anything but money.”


29 posted on 04/09/2012 3:06:32 PM PDT by stop_fascism (Love your country, but never trust its government - R.A. Heinlein)
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To: reaganaut1
I've never been a fan of Derbyshire because of his apparent atheism, illustrated by his softness on homosexuality, his bashing of creationists, and his (Darwinistic) genetic determinism. However, the article in question doesn't seem that outrageous--especially coming from a materialist.

I'm surprised and disappointed that "Taki" is on the masthead of NR, though.

30 posted on 04/09/2012 3:07:11 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Ki-hagoy vehamamlakhah 'asher lo'-ya`avdukh yove'du; vehagoyim charov yecheravu!)
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To: betty boop

See 27 which was meant for you


31 posted on 04/09/2012 3:09:15 PM PDT by KC Burke (Newton's New First Law, Repeal and Restore!)
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To: Duke of Milan

Perhaps Steyn works through some introspection in this piece. He mentions that Derb fell outside the parameters that are mandated by our current culture. Suppose he feels that, being left behind, he fits snugly within that culture. Should he question his impact on that culture?

Steyn doesn’t need NR. I have a feeling that he’ll be making a move on principle.


32 posted on 04/09/2012 3:11:44 PM PDT by brewer1516
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To: marron

I don’t agree with the premise of the Derbyshire article. Having worked with rural Appalachian whites who were diagnosed as retarded - back in the day when they used that word - because they were so severely culturally deprived that they could barely speak intelligibly and lived one step above chimps, if that, I think the black problem is basically cultural. Granted, the gene pool by now may not be at its greatest, so some of the raw material isn’t good to start with (just as among the Appalachian whites, many of whom were in fact the product of multi-generational incest). But if blacks learned standard English and thus could master the concepts for math, and were expected to behave in society just like everybody else, I think you’d see the supposed IQ difference disappear in a couple of generations.

However, Derbyshire wrote an interesting article, and it could provoke a good discussion. Steyn was absolutely correct in his comments on it.


33 posted on 04/09/2012 3:20:20 PM PDT by livius
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To: livius

You ought to read “The Bell Curve” from cover to cover.

Whatever you think you know about IQ testing and nature vs. nurture, will be useful to your understanding, but the book goes further.

In the end, how they got the way they are, doesn’t detract from the fact they are that way. And we are stuck with it.

The book even deals with public policy recommendations for the true situation.

Hint: They don’t recommend further dumbing down high school and college, so people with IQs averaging 85 can feel good about themselves.


34 posted on 04/09/2012 3:29:27 PM PDT by truth_seeker
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To: reaganaut1
I used to subscribe. But they are doing the same thing NPR did to Juan Williams. Which is the same thing that the Athenian did to Socrates, or the Catholic Church did to Galileo. At least the Church apologized.

To quote Tom West on Plato's Apology of Socrates:

Telling the truth is hard, for in order to do so, one must know what the truth is. The Apology of Socrates show that Socrates, more than anyone else in Athens, devotes his life to the task of seeking through conversation the truth about all things. Such an effort demands a rigorous and constant application of the mind and a renunciation of conventional pursuits. This is what Socrates calls philosophizing. . . . And since he insists upon speaking out publicly before the young men of the city, he will be perceived a a corruptor of the young. As if to show that it cannot after all be done, Socrates will half-heartedly try to bring together subtle truth and beautiful persuasion in his speech. His inevitable failure leads directly to condemnation and the death sentence.

And to quote Pope Benedict:

When one looks at the history of the dogma of the Trinity as it is reflected in a present-day manual of theology, it looks like a graveyard of heresies, whose emblems theology still carries around with it like the trophies from battles fought and won. But such a view does not represent a proper understanding of the matter, for all the attempted solutions that in the course of a long struggle were finally thrown out as dead ends and, hence, heresies are not just mere gravestones to the vanity of human endeavor, monuments that confirm how often thinking has come to grief and at which we can now look back in retrospective - and, in the last analysis, fruitless - curiosity. On the contrary, every heresy is at the same time the cipher for an abiding truth, a cipher we must now preserve with other simultaneously valid statements, separated from which it produces a false impression. In other words, all these statements are not so much gravestones as the bricks of a cathedral, which are, of course, only useful when they do not remain alone but are inserted into something bigger, just as even the positively accepted formulas are valid only if they are at the same time aware of their own inadequacy.

35 posted on 04/09/2012 3:37:52 PM PDT by ALPAPilot
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To: reaganaut1

I don’t like Derbyshire after reading some of his past comments about the Irish, of which I have heritage, which sounded racist. I think a lot of his NRO articles were somewhat silly. But it wouldn’t have mattered if he had omitted the IQ thing. Just mentioning the fact that crime among young Black males is almost out of control and a national disgrace is enough to get anyone censored.


36 posted on 04/09/2012 3:39:27 PM PDT by driftless2
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To: KC Burke

You are thus far, one of the few who got it.


37 posted on 04/09/2012 3:42:24 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: brewer1516

” Steyn doesn’t need NR. I have a feeling that he’ll be making a move on principle.”

Or at the very least, he is indifferent about his NR relationship.


38 posted on 04/09/2012 3:45:00 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: livius

The inability to grasp math concepts is not dependent on learning English. Math is a language, in and of itself. The failure to grasp math concepts is a specific learning disability, where numbers have no meaning, like phonics having no meaning for a dyslexic student.

It seems to be hereditary. I’m just saying that from observing kids with the problem, I don’t have any proof to back up the hereditary component. These kids can’t even count items without touching each one as they say the number. That’s basically how you tell if the kid has dyscalculia. That’s what it is called.


39 posted on 04/09/2012 3:45:11 PM PDT by Eva
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To: reaganaut1
This needs to be on the thread:

And if it is here already, it doesn't hurt for it to appear again.

40 posted on 04/09/2012 3:47:29 PM PDT by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: Eva

” dyscalculia “

An aversion to integral calculus?

: )


41 posted on 04/09/2012 3:49:16 PM PDT by stephenjohnbanker (God, family, country, mom, apple pie, the girl next door and a Ford F250 to pull my boat.)
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To: truth_seeker
I read "The Bell Curve" and I agree with a lot of the premises. There are innate differences in intelligence among the peoples of the earth. The questions I've always wondered was: how were those differences created, and have things changed in that area over the millenia?

According to the scientists, all humans originated in Africa and spread out. So if we all originated from common origins, how did we arrive at a world where there are large differences in mental ability among the various peoples? Remember, east Asians test higher than white Europeans on average in IQ tests. Does that make them superior to white Europeans? I don't feel inferior because the average IQ of east Asians is higher than people from my ethnic stock in Europe. And there are differences in IQ among people of the same so-called race. (incidentally, race is a concept I don't believe in.) Most likely there's a lot more intelligence we don't know about intelligence.

42 posted on 04/09/2012 3:55:19 PM PDT by driftless2
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To: truth_seeker
How much more dumbing down of high school classes can there be? Already the students seem to have the intellectual acuity of oyster beds.
43 posted on 04/09/2012 3:56:11 PM PDT by Reily
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To: reaganaut1

Mark Steyn is so lucid and sane it’s startling sometimes.

I didn’t think too highly of Derb’s piece- and I disagree with him on a regular basis- but he has brought up topics in ways that have made me THINK and question myself and I value that. I’ll miss him.

I don’t know exactly what the best course was for NR in this case- but the knee-jerk panic on display in the timing and tone of Derb’s firing is useful. I stopped respecting them over there several years ago- around the time they endorsed Romney..and it’s been downhill since then for me.

Maybe this would have been an opportunity for that “dialogue on race” we’re always being told we need.


44 posted on 04/09/2012 3:57:54 PM PDT by SE Mom (Proud mom of an Iraq war combat vet)
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To: betty boop

If intelligence isn’t at least in part determined by genetics, then why can’t a turtle be raised to have as high an I.Q. as a human being?

We absolutely know beyond dispute that different ethnicities have different physical characteristics, which are easily observable, as well as different health risks and problems, which are less easily observable but have been proven statistically. The brain is a less understood physical organ, but it is a physical organ which gives human beings intellectual and emotional characteristics somewhat different from those of turtles.

It would be simply illogical and baseless to say that the ONLY possible different characteristics between different ethnicities are the easily observable ones which we already have clear proof of. If one is interested in truth, one should remain open-minded about any possibilities which have neither been proven nor disproven.

That being said, this Derbyshire article didn’t even seem to be arguing the case for biological vs. cultural differences. He was only discussing differences as he observed them in the population and didn’t discuss their possible origins. He may have done this in other articles.


45 posted on 04/09/2012 4:11:08 PM PDT by JediJones (The Divided States of Obama's Declaration of Dependence: Death, Taxes and the Pursuit of Crappiness)
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To: USS Alaska

“When sharp contrasts are called for, NR is a mosh pit of pastels.”

Nice


46 posted on 04/09/2012 4:19:02 PM PDT by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto.)
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To: Eva
“The inability to grasp math concepts is not dependent on learning English.”

That point needs to be made often. Conversely, literacy is not a prerequisite to learning math or science. Dyslexic children can be taught math and science, without delaying to “fix” their literacy skill. That's something that most elementary school teachers (and most of the rest of the educational establishment, for that matter) do not understand. They (the teachers) have a bias toward literacy skills, because that is usually what they were good at.

47 posted on 04/09/2012 4:19:35 PM PDT by USFRIENDINVICTORIA
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To: mrsmel

Thx MrsMEl the ALTRIGHT Article is excellent, esp. last paragraph:
“Personally I have no wish to bang on about White “supremacy,” and I’m sure that John Derbyshire didn’t either, but when you have a frank, open, and honest discussion about race in America this is one of the inevitable by-products, and this is exactly why the National Review has stopped reviewing the nation, and fired the last writer on its books “capable of living up to the magazine’s title.


48 posted on 04/09/2012 4:27:36 PM PDT by iopscusa (El Vaquero. (SC Lowcountry Cowboy))
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