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First Man Arrested With Drone Evidence Vows to Fight Case
USNWR via Jewish World Review ^ | April 11, 2012 | Jason Koebler

Posted on 04/11/2012 4:46:27 AM PDT by jmcenanly

Bizarre case is forcing court to decide if police may take advantage of technology in making arrests

JewishWorldReview.com | (USNWR) The tiny town of Lakota, N.D., is quickly becoming a key testing ground for the legality of the use of unmanned drones by law enforcement after one of its residents became the first American citizen to be arrested with the help of a Predator surveillance drone. The bizarre case started when six cows wandered onto Rodney Brossart's 3,000 acre farm. Brossart, an alleged anti-government "sovereignist," believed he should have been able to keep the cows, so he and two family members chased police off his land with high powered rifles.

After a 16-hour standoff, the Grand Forks police department SWAT team, armed with a search warrant, used an agreement they've had with Homeland Security for about three years, and called in an unmanned aerial vehicle to pinpoint Brossart's location on the ranch. The SWAT team stormed in and arrested Brossart on charges of terrorizing a sheriff, theft, criminal mischief, and other charges, according to documents

(Excerpt) Read more at jewishworldreview.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; US: North Dakota
KEYWORDS: drone; privacy
I've heard of the police using rovers for similar purposes. I don't think that the case will take off.
1 posted on 04/11/2012 4:46:36 AM PDT by jmcenanly
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To: jmcenanly

The evidence of the crime was well established long before the drone was used to locate him.

No significant new legal issue here.


2 posted on 04/11/2012 4:51:40 AM PDT by MindBender26 (New Army SF and Ranger Slogan: Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.... but He subcontracts!)
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To: jmcenanly
3 questions...

what do you mean, "I don't think that the case will take off."?

Why would someone NOT be able to keep cows on a 3000 acre tract?

Why would someone shoot at police????

3 posted on 04/11/2012 4:52:55 AM PDT by Principled
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To: Principled

-—in no jurisdiction with which I am famiiar does the trespass of cattle convey ownership to the owner of the land-—


4 posted on 04/11/2012 5:03:36 AM PDT by rellimpank (--don't believe anything the media or government says about firearms or explosives--)
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To: Principled

The cows weren’t his to keep.

I don’t think it’s said he shot at police. But they did chase them off with guns.


5 posted on 04/11/2012 5:03:51 AM PDT by LevinFan
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To: jmcenanly
Bizarre case is forcing court to decide if police may take advantage of technology in making arrests

how about "invasive" technology? How about "military" technology?

oh, idunno, cuz words matter?

6 posted on 04/11/2012 5:10:50 AM PDT by the invisib1e hand (I think in about 5 - no, 4 - years I'll have had enough.)
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To: jmcenanly
The SWAT team stormed in and arrested Brossart on charges of terrorizing a sheriff, theft, criminal mischief, and other charges, according to documents.

Greaaaaaat. Now they've criminalized scaring your Sheriff.

7 posted on 04/11/2012 5:30:12 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: jmcenanly
I've heard of the police using rovers for similar purposes. I don't think that the case will take off.

I imagine he's going to claim this is a violation of his Fourth Amendment rights. SCOTUS has held that 4A limits use of technology not in widespread use by the public. So, a cop walking by on your street who wears glasses and sees what appears to be a dead body through your front window, ok; extremely expensive thermal imagers to see that the roof over your third bedroom is way hotter than the rest of the house and you might be growing pot, no. But IMO he's going to have a hard time making that case because that's for warrantless, pre probable cause searches. If police have PC and a warrant, they can use pretty sophisticated tools looking for evidence. Plus in this case they'll probably claim officer safety as well, since he chased them off with guns.

8 posted on 04/11/2012 5:37:15 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: jmcenanly

Well, that plan worked.


9 posted on 04/11/2012 5:40:23 AM PDT by AppyPappy (If you really want to annoy someone, point out something obvious that they are trying hard to ignore)
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To: jmcenanly

From the article;

Currently, about 300 law enforcement agencies and research institutions—including the Grand Forks SWAT team—have “temporary licenses” from the FAA to use drones. Currently, drones are most commonly used by Homeland Security along America’s borders.


10 posted on 04/11/2012 5:41:52 AM PDT by maine yankee (I got my Governor at 'Marden's')
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To: jmcenanly
Brossart, an alleged anti-government "sovereignist," believed he should have been able to keep the cows

Did he think the cows were sent by the government? Were these cows USDA Grade A?

This story seems more comical than insidious. Use of a drone in this circumstance doesn't mean any more than if they used a helicopter. The event in question occurred before the use of surveillance, not vice versa.

i.e., if the drone spotted him collecting cows and, with only that information, sent the cops in, you'd have a case here.

11 posted on 04/11/2012 5:59:38 AM PDT by fruser1
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To: maine yankee
Currently, drones are most commonly used by Homeland Security along America’s borders.

To track illegals in distress and and help them get into the US safely......

We know they aren't [seriously] stopping illegals, so just what are the drones watching? Hmm?

Most of what DHS is doing is designed to watch legal American citizens more than anything else. Gotta wonder if this is any different.

12 posted on 04/11/2012 6:03:28 AM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s....you weren't really there)
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To: maine yankee

The sherriff dept is using them in montgomery county in Texas.


13 posted on 04/11/2012 6:10:01 AM PDT by nixonsnose (Let's see all you lawyers argue your way out of hell.)
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14 posted on 04/11/2012 6:10:05 AM PDT by deoetdoctrinae (Gun-free zones are playgrounds for felons)
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To: jmcenanly

Target practice?


15 posted on 04/11/2012 6:13:17 AM PDT by moovova (Comments at FreeRepublic are WAY MORE interesting than the articles.)
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To: jmcenanly

Deu 22:1 Thou shalt not see thy brother’s ox or his sheep go astray, and hide thyself from them: thou shalt in any case bring them again unto thy brother.


16 posted on 04/11/2012 6:50:30 AM PDT by the_daug
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To: Travis McGee; Squantos; SLB; hiredhand; patton; leda; sneakypete; verity; Larry Lucido; wardaddy; ..
Interesting. No mention of what agency was in charge of the drone. Are domestic agencies now operating Predators? I have ready that the Border Patrol is getting some, but that's a long way from ND. If it was a military asset, this action would be a violation of posse comitatus, would it not?

In any case, it sure goes to prove that these folks will spend all the taxpayer money they like when someone resists their "awe-thar-i-taaaay".

17 posted on 04/11/2012 6:50:36 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Still Thinking
extremely expensive thermal imagers to see that the roof over your third bedroom is way hotter than the rest of the house

Not so much anymore. Ten years ago $15k and up.

Today <$1200.

This SCOTUS decision does not address types of technology as such, merely how common it is. As certain types of tech get cheaper, the rationale for why they can't be used loses steam.

18 posted on 04/11/2012 7:02:16 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: the_daug
Thief?

when six cows wandered onto Rodney Brossart's 3,000 acre farm. Brossart, an alleged anti-government "sovereignist," believed he should have been able to keep the cows, so he and two family members chased police off his land with high powered rifles.

Deu 22:2 And if thy brother be not nigh, or thou know him not: thou shalt bring them to thy house, and they shall be with thee until thy brother seek them, and receive them. Deu 22:3 Thou shalt do in like manner with his ass, and with his raiment, and with every thing that is thy brother's, which is lost: if thou find it, neglect it not as pertaining to another.

19 posted on 04/11/2012 7:07:22 AM PDT by the_daug
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To: MindBender26

true.

There is a USSC that already says police need a warrent to use infrared cameras on helicopters when searching for grow houses.

I suspect this is more sensationalism. There is a pre-us history regarding the law of wandering livestock.


20 posted on 04/11/2012 7:08:50 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: ChildOfThe60s

They ARE watching for illegals and drug smugglers.

CBP Air and Marine and Border Patrol Agents working the Predators are seeing a huge rise in detections and apprehensions. . .and they are seeing the numbers being cooked by Wash DC. . .you know, to keep the numbers low is to prove the border is secure.

CBP Air and Marine has less than two dozen Predators to cover over 11,000 miles of border. Hardly enough to just wander about.

Your nasty comment about assisting illegals and drug smugglers is a direct insult to the Agents in the field, the Agents that are out there fighting to keep the border secure.

Agent Brian Terry was killed because he was doing his job and Nappy-Pants and Holder were traitors because they caused it. My son, a Border Patrol Agent, was injured on the job taking down several drug smugglers. Consequently, I suggest you focus your comments on border security on the villains-—Nappy-Pants, Holder and The Messiah.

Do not insult the men that are on the line. They are actually doing something about illegals. . .and at great personal risk.


21 posted on 04/11/2012 7:12:51 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: Still Thinking

seems this person was already surrounded and already about to be arrested. This article does not convey any information. This would be akin to just asking a helicopter where the subject was.


22 posted on 04/11/2012 7:14:31 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: Joe Brower

ND is where the Predator training center is located.

DHS, CBP Air and Marine operate the Predator’s, not the Border Patrol.


23 posted on 04/11/2012 7:15:47 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: Principled
3 questions...

what do you mean, "I don't think that the case will take off."?
I believe it was a joke. Drone/taking off. Get it?

Why would someone NOT be able to keep cows on a 3000 acre tract?
Sure you can. But in this case, someone ELSE'S cows wondered onto the property, and these hillbillies decided that they were NOW the rightful owners.

Why would someone shoot at police????
Because they are stupid.
*knock knock knock*
We understand that you have some cows that belong your neighbor
(while pointing a rifle at the cops)You best be gitt'n off our land if you know what good fer ya.

24 posted on 04/11/2012 7:21:38 AM PDT by SengirV
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To: Hulka
"DHS, CBP Air and Marine operate the Predator’s, not the Border Patrol."

Thanks. So whose drone was employed in this case? CBP?

You mention that approx. two dozen of these are currently in operation. As a taxpayer and citizen, it would interest me to know exactly how many of these machines are employed in the CONUS, exactly what agencies they belong to, and exactly where they are deployed.

25 posted on 04/11/2012 7:32:08 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: jmcenanly
How long before these same “Drones” will become [armed] drones over Americans private property?

This is a perfect example of “Mission Creep!” what was first used as an example of “anti-terror” is now being used for local police to apprehend private Americans!

Where do Americans draw the line or rein in government overreach or abuse? Some Americans like the use of government power to accomplish somethings in our society, but not in others, but, where do we draw that line to stop government overreach?

It is a very slippery slope

26 posted on 04/11/2012 8:16:35 AM PDT by paratrooper82 (We are kicking Ass in Afghanistan, soon we will be home to kick some more Asses in Congress!)
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To: longtermmemmory

Does the SCOTUS ruling apply to aerial observation, or just from public roads?

The essence of that ruling is that IR allows LEOs to see what is not normally visable to the human eye. It can literally “see through walls.”

SCOTUS would never say IR could not be used to capture a fleeing criminal, if the criminal act was already known through other means.

In this case, all was known long before drones, IR or visual, were used to apprehend the “wantee.”

One fun government argument here could be, since Def does not beleive in Federal Government, how can he object to actions of something he says does not affect him, or ask for relief from an entity of that government.

It wouldn’t go anywhere, but the motions in opposition would be fun to read! Sort of like watching a athiest pray on his death bed.


27 posted on 04/11/2012 8:50:23 AM PDT by MindBender26 (New Army SF and Ranger Slogan: Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.... but He subcontracts!)
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To: Joe Brower

Come on, Joe, a police state is a safe state!

And if you have nothing to hide, why would you mind drones overhead filming you?


28 posted on 04/11/2012 9:31:31 AM PDT by Travis McGee (www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com)
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To: Joe Brower
That would have been the CBP Air and Marine Predators.

They would have been called, not the military Predators. CBP Predators are sometimes called for help when local aviation assets are unable to help and the threat is significant.

Here are a couple of DHS websites on their Predators:

http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_security/air_marine/uas_program/
http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/border_security/air_marine/air/aviation_asset/predator_b.xml

Predator ops in the US -- other than testing and development flights in restrcitected airspace, military training flights (in MOA range airspace), and CBP operations along the border, there are no other agencies that have approval to operate within the US

The approval to operate a Predator outside FAA approved airspace is a real chore, almost impossible, as the FAA is slowly integrating UAVs and they don't, EVER want to (and who can blame them) have a mid-air with an unmanned aircraft.

Where they are deployed? Training for CBP Air and Marine and the USAF is in Grand Forks, ND, and there are Predators at Davis-Monthan Air Force Base, Tuscon, and I think there are a couple of other locations but can't say for sure. Might be one someplace down south along the east coast or in Florida, but don't know.

29 posted on 04/11/2012 9:52:31 AM PDT by Hulka
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To: Hulka
Many thanks for the detailed reply.
30 posted on 04/11/2012 10:15:54 AM PDT by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Hulka

Sorry, did not intend to insult. Dressing down accepted.


31 posted on 04/11/2012 10:53:19 AM PDT by ChildOfThe60s (If you can remember the 60s....you weren't really there)
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To: ChildOfThe60s

No worries, sir.


32 posted on 04/11/2012 12:10:01 PM PDT by Hulka
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To: Joe Brower

He’s going to jail.... Drones are no less illegal had a police helicopter searched for an found the person they were after.... Just another toy for the FLEA’s to use .....,

UAV’s are OK...

UCAV’s for policing citizens is bad. No armaments.

Just what I have seen....stay safe !


33 posted on 04/11/2012 1:57:24 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet)
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To: MindBender26

The USSC case was about a police department that was just flying over whole neighborhoods with IR cameras looking for “hot” houses which would be grow homes.

they were looking inside homes with tech and were doing so without any probable cause and without any warrant. The USSC slapped them hard over that.

Better tech does not make peeping legal.


34 posted on 04/11/2012 2:21:48 PM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: longtermmemmory
Exactly.

Had they been flying generally and seen marijuana plants growing visually outside a building, they would have been fine, but as you said the previous case was a no no.

In this case, they are fine however. Courts are loathe to enter into how an arrest was made. People kidnapped overseas by private citizens and returned to the US against their will have been held to have no immunity from arrest.

35 posted on 04/11/2012 2:49:22 PM PDT by MindBender26 (New Army SF and Ranger Slogan: Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord.... but He subcontracts!)
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To: jmcenanly

Armed Predator drone flying around Chicago
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzrS0BVJynM


36 posted on 05/16/2012 4:55:52 PM PDT by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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