Skip to comments.Where’s the ‘Probable Cause’?
Posted on 04/13/2012 7:05:10 PM PDT by doug from upland
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As I noted in #81.
Most likely, he got out of his truck and walked over to the north end of the walkway between town house rows in order to see if he could see where Martin went (as opposed to pursuing him). Retreat View Circle, on which Zimmerman lived, is at the far end of that walkway. The front door of Brandy Green's townhouse is on that street (and the back door is presumably where Martin was headed before he decided to teach the Man a lesson).
There is a pretty good reconstruction here.
A friend of mine works for WSP, I know of what I speak. And it has been confirmed to me by other FReepers that it is the same in their state.
Police dispatch IS, in many places, officially, legally, statutorily, an LEO position, with all the force and effect of law behind them.
Hmm. That would be a problem. Perhaps you could provide us the correct spelling of his name?
Is the lady who cleans toilets at the police station a cop?
The cleaning lady does not represent the police to the public. Sean (or whoever picked up the line) did.
He did not know the exact house numbers. That is what the dispatcher was asking for. He was between houses and I'm sure there are no house numbers on the backs.
“The cleaning lady does not represent the police to the public. Sean (or whoever picked up the line) did.”
She might, if I happened to walk into a bathroom she was cleaning. In which case you’d probably say it was my fault if I ignored her suggestion not to walk on a wet floor and someone ambushed me from a stall.
But seriously, just because you represent the police does not mean you are police. It doesn’t mean you can give lawful orders, especially if they’re not actually orders. And finally, at long last, will someone please demonstrate to me that he ignored the “order.” Because if he followed it, this is moot point.
He was parked on Twin Trees ... the next street over is Retreat View Circle. He thought all the action was happening on Retreat View Circle. Even his dad said he went over to the next street (Retreat View Circle) via the short walkway.
Why did he not retrace his steps back to his vehicle? Why did he go onto the long walkway, away from his vehicle?
Did Martin attack him on that short walkway and drag him part way down the long walkway to the site of the shooting?
What "Sean" said was far from an order. It was merely a bland statement enunciating established policy, although a properly trained neighborhood watch guy should have fully understood the meaning. And whether or not "Sean" had a badge and was authorized to patrol the streets wearing a gun is irrelevant. He was not on the street, but he did officially represent the Sanford Police.
And finally, at long last, will someone please demonstrate to me that he ignored the order. Because if he followed it, this is moot point.
More than likely, Zimmerman did follow the "order". He responds "OK" to the suggestion not to follow. He then states he's lost track of the suspect. Then he starts to give his address (1950 of which there is only one, LOL) but stops because he fears Martin may be close enough to overhear. Then the call ends, and a few minutes later well, you know the rest of the story.
"The office of the State Attorney, 4th Judicial Circuit, State Attorney Angela Corey has requested that the City of Sanford remove all reports, videos and audio pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman case from the website. Their office has provided legal justification for the action and they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation."
What say you to that?
“whether or not ‘Sean’ had a badge and was authorized to patrol the streets wearing a gun is irrelevant.”
I should think it would be, if not following it takes away your right to assert self-defense.
“What ‘Sean’ said was far from an order.”
Why are we talking about it, then? What relevance has it to Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence?
“although a properly trained neighborhood watch guy should have fully understood the meaning”
That “although” is funny. I don’t know what it’s supposed to mean. Are we supposed to think he ignored it while understanding its meaning? Do you know of any evidence showing that he didn’t follow the “bland statement enunciating established policy”?
“More than likely, Zimmerman did follow the ‘order’”
Again, then, why are we talking about it? It’s an awful lot of fuss over “a bland statement enunciating established policy” given by a kinda sorta but not really cop representing the police, but not in a capacity to give lawful orders, that he more than likely followed.
“they believe further access to the information will have an adverse effect on their efforts to come to a resolution to this investigation”
Why? Aren’t these things public? We hear them all the time on the news when other evidence is deemed privileged.
He was in his car.
You can still hear unedited versions of the 911 call on all over youtube.
It’s obvious when he exits and when he stops pursuing.
“well, you know the rest of the story.”
Not really. I can guess, but what’s in a guess? Al Sharpton’s guess is probably that Zimmerman went back to hunting Martin down, shouted at Martin “You gonna die, you dirty coon!” and proceeded to hit himself in the nose, pound his own head on the pavement, and shoot Martin for kicks.
What I do know is that there’s no evidence that Zimmerman started the fight, various pieces of evidence that he was losing the fight, and no evidence I’m aware of to contradict his self-defense defense. And that’s how criminal cases work in this country: the prosecution has to prove things. Not just say he was pissed off at the police and maybe didn’t follow the non-order of a non-police officer.
He did not return to his vehicle by retracing his steps. He either took a detour down the long pathway which was in the opposite direction or Martin dragged him down that pathway. Which was it?
Why did Martin confront Zimmerman in such an aggressive way, and was there a blood test to determine if the kid was high on something?
Regarding the voice on the recording — won’t a technical test be done to reveal who was calling for help?
If the jury is intimidated and convicts Zimmerman, can’t he still appeal and appeal until a judge at some level looks at the actual evidence?
If so, shouldn’t we be making contributions to his legal defense?
Do you still say it was the street names he didn't remember?
“was there a blood test to determine if the kid was high on something?”
I believe there was. Funny thing, before the story blew up I recall listening to some lefty “news” show on the internet, or maybe it was Al Gore’s network. They thought it unjust that Martin had been tested and not Zimmerman, implying it was all part of the rush to judgement by Old South authorities against Martin for being black.
I don’t suppose it occured to them that while you can’t go around drawing blood willy-nilly from living people with Constitutional rights, you don’t need probable cause to get it from a corpse.
"Sean's" exact job title is of no importance to the case.
In the call in question, Sean was the police, and Zimmerman was the neighborhood watch guy. No more, no less.
“Why did Martin confront Zimmerman in such an aggressive way”
You might try asking the affidavit...oops, it says Zimmerman did the confronting. I sure hope there’s some evidence to back that up.
Zimmerman called the non-emergency police number.
“someone at 911 told him to quit following the kid.”
The operator was a civilian employee, not police, and he simply told Zimmerman he “didn't need to do that.” Also, the Sanford Police Department conducted a Neighborhood Watch training session at Zimmerman's apartment complex. Zimmerman was well informed about legal issues and risk issues BEFORE the shooting.
“was he following the kid in his car when that happened?”
No. He left his truck, in a cold steady rain, and walked/ran to the point where he had lost sight of Trayvon Martin. At that spot, Trayvon Martin was less than 350 feet from his father's townhouse, and Trayvon had a 300 foot lead on Zimmerman. Why Trayvon - who claimed to be afraid, according to his girlfriend - simply didn't jog home has never been explained.
Zimmerman observed Martin for AT LEAST 2 minutes and 14 seconds BEFORE he got out of his truck.
This is verified by the cell phone connect time and the sound of Zimmerman's door alarm on the tape.
What Trayvon Martin was doing for 2:14 BEFORE Zimmerman began to follow him has never been explained.
Angela Corey is a pig.
Well it certainly sounds optional to me. Where as this exchange sounds a little more like they expect him to do it....
911 dispatcher: Let me know if he does anything, OK?
911 dispatcher: Weve got him on the wire. Just let me know if this guy does anything else.
Zimmerman: OK. These assholes. They always get away. When you come to the clubhouse, you come straight in and you go left. Actually, you would go past the clubhouse. [1:39]
Interesting, that right up until Corey decided against the Grand Jury, all that info being up was just hunky dory.
From what I read, when asked not to follow he stopped.
The 911 operator also wanted to know where Martin went so that the police who were in route could follow up. He said he didn’t know where Martin went. When Zimmerman went around the corner to an open area between houses to take a look is when Martin attacked him.
If that’s true, Zimmerman did nothing wrong in looking. He was attempting to provide the 911 operator what he/she requested.
"We've got him on the wire"?? Huh?
Sounded to my ears more like, "We've got 'em on the way". As in, police officers to witness you committing second degree! Not! LOL!
Yeah, some of these transcriptions are pretty screwy.
But you see the point?
GM is told twice to keep an eye on Martin but when asked if he’s following, he’s told he doesn’t need to do that.....
Someone less familiar with police procedure might take that as an extra credit assignment.
At least 3 nationally known attorneys disagree.
Mark Levin, former chief of staff to Attorney general Ed Meese.
Andrew C. McCarthy, U.S. Attorney who prosecuted the 1993 WTC terrorists.
Alan Dershowitz, the youngest ever full Professor of Law at Harvard who has won 13 of 15 murder appeals.
All three have given blanket condemnation of the affidavit.
Not one of them has even hinted there are grounds for Voluntary Manslaughter.
Zimmerman was licensed and trained for concealed carry.
Zimmerman requested and attended a Sanford Police Department training seminar for his Neighborhood Watch group BEFORE the shooting.
The civilian employee Zimmerman spoke to on the non-emergency police line NEVER ordered Zimmerman to do anything.
When Zimmerman asked if he should follow Martin - whom he had observed for AT LEAST 2 minutes and 14 seconds - the civilian operator said “we don't need you to do that.”
I take it back. He was not ordered not to follow. At most, it was a suggestion.
Zimmerman will forever have an arrest for “murder”. That was the goal, thus far, it’s called “multijusticism”.
Thank you for pointing out the information that shows the ignorance of many posters.
When you also consider the map of the area, you will see that if Zimmeerman was "stalking" Martin, Martin would have been pushed toward his father's girlfriend's house (I believe 900 feet away). Instead, Martin chose to go in the opposite direction and confront Zimmerman.
I would also like to see the 7-11 tapes of when Martin purchased the products versus when Zimmerman first saw him. This may support the notion that Martin was not going directly home, but loitering between the back of the homes in the gated community during a moderate rainstorm.
I’ve been asking people who have “convicted” Zimmerman if they have carefully listened to the initial Zimmerman call in it’s entirety. Most were a “no”, and I’m not sure I believe the “yes”es. It is quite possible the latter group just listened to the NBC version.
Here’s all a jury needs to know: Who called 911 and who didn’t.
Zimmerman called 911. Had he intended to “hunt down” (as has been stated by some) and kill Martin, he wouldn’t have done so while on the phone to 911.
Martin didn’t call 911, nor did he ask his girlfriend to. It’s appears that he circled back and confronted Martin, believing himself to be tough enough to take him down. (That surmised from Martin’s attack on the bus driver and Zimmerman’s stating to the 911 operator that he had “lost” Martin prior to the confrontation.)
I can give Zimmerman a fair trial, and I’ll bet 99.9% of the people posting on this site could as well.
Guess those "25 years as a prosecutor" did little to improve on your ability to "Comprehend" the English language nor grasp the facts as they are known?
Z was NOT "TOLD NOT TO"
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Dispatcher: OKAY WE DON'T NEED TO DO THAT"
For all of you Freepers who keep advancing this FALSE, narative (in spite of the 911 call available to anyone who cares to take the time to review it) I have this advice
I'm reminded of Mark Twain's supposed quote: "Get your facts straight, then distort them as you please."
Zimmerman’s injuries as stated in the police report are another aspect worth noting. As someone said here days ago, when police are called to a domestic dispute, they assume the person with the injuries is the victim and not the aggressor.
7:10:23 - Zimm reports Martin is staring at him.
7:11:35 - Zimm reports Martin is approaching his truck, and that Martin's hand is in his waistband.
7:11:42 - Zimm reports Martin is running.
7:11:48 - Door chime on Zimm’s truck can be heard.
7:12:00 - Operator tells Zimm “we don't need you” to follow Martin - Zimm quickly says “OK.”
7:13:41 - Zimm agrees to meet police at his truck, and he hangs up call.
7:14:30 - Several reports claim that Zimm returned to his truck after hanging up - they claim that Martin confronted Zimm by banging on his window - they claim Martin then ran and Zimm followed him.
Trayvon Martin and girlfriend DeeDee phone records.....
There are many conflicting reports on this.
7:09:34 - Many reports say Martin and DeeDee were on the phone continuously until seconds before Martin was shot.
7:12:00 - Two reports say DeeDee’s cell phone record shows she called Martin at 7:12 (which means between 7:12 and 7:12:59).
7:15:40 - According to DeeDee this is when sounds of a fight begin, and Martin's phone disconnects.
DeeDee says she tried to phone Martin back, but got no answer.
There are no published reports that DeeDee tried to contact police or contact Trayvon’s parents after she heard a fight start.
7:16:11 - The first citizen 911 call comes in - screaming heard in the background.
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Dispatcher: OKAY WE DON’T NEED TO DO THAT”
Interesting. A careful parsing of the sentence suggests that the “WE” could be interpreted as meaning IF Zimmerman is following the suspect, the police (WE) don’t need to...
It truly amazes me people regurgitate what the MSM has told them without bothering to look at facts.
Once in the courtroom, the defense attorney will want facts, not emotion based knee-jerking.
they’ll need to provide security for the jury...the jury to be in Z’s favor needs to have several hispanic members...and Z has to testify.....his story has never changed...he’s been a good citizen just watching his neighborhood....
In many places?
That doesn’t count. What is it in Sanford? (The only place this matters.)
9-1-1 operators are not cops they are console operators and in so many proven cases they screw up,alot.
No grand jury would have returned an indictment for second degree murder and likely even a manslaughter charge would have been a stretch, particularly when jurors would have seen the police reports. This special prosecutor is just is just pandering to the lynch mob whipped up by Sharpton and Jackson.
Now forget about all of that and try to concentrate . . .
Was Zimmerman parked on Twin Trees? Yes or No
Did Zimmerman use the walkway (cutoff) to walk to Retreat View Circle? Yes or No
To return to his vehicle would Zimmerman turn around, retrace his steps, and walk from Retreat View Circle back to Twin Trees? Yes or No
Still with me . . .?
It appears that Zimmerman detoured and turned left. He went onto the long walkway that ran thru the backyards of the buildings . . . in a direction took him further away from his vehicle. It was on that long walkway where the shooting took place. He got there somehow.
Now for the $64,000 question . . .
Did Zimmerman voluntarily go on the long walkway? Yes or No
To help you visualize it, I've included this photo. Twin Trees is off-camera to the right. Retreat View Circle is off-camera to the left. The shooting happened on that long walkway.
You forgot the part where Zimmerman said that the police should call him when they got to the complex . . . so he could give them his location.
the judge is probably a liberal or a cowardly little appeasing RINO, like Angela Corey.