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What did the Declaration of Independence Establish
The Founders Revolution ^ | April 13, 2012 | Scott Strzelczyk

Posted on 04/15/2012 5:31:13 AM PDT by mek1959

This Friday, April 13th is the birth day of Thomas Jefferson. In recognition of his birthday I thought we’d revisit the meaning of the Declaration of Independence. On the surface the meaning of the Declaration may be self-evident, but the true meaning of many of the sentences and phrases escapes most people.

The Declaration of Independence stated to the world that the thirteen colonies were separating from Great Britain. In other words the colonies were seceding from Britain. The first paragraph says “When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.”

(Excerpt) Read more at foundersrevolution.net ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Government; Philosophy; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: constitution; declaration; declareindependence
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To: BroJoeK

Amen!


101 posted on 04/20/2012 1:12:46 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!-Sam Adams)
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To: BroJoeK
I'll respond to this at length in later today though I must take one initial forray into this.

You cite Madison's "flip-flop" and then apply the in relation to the S. Carolina "efforts" to nullify, even secede and then ascribe the notion that the Founder's implicite and explicit intent was found in this letter. I can assure you that you are wrong...or Jefferson (and a younger Madison) in 1798 were not founders...which is it? You can't have it both ways. Madison was an evolutionary founder and not completely consistent, I'm sure you understand that about him. As a federalist, he no doubt held a deeper desire for a more consolidated government so his letter is not some stunning new revelation about the "intent of the Founders." Far from it. Your bias towards a consolidated can is exposed; that's fine. Mine is towards State sovereignity which was not "surrendered" during ratification but "delegated." So, continue with your big-government propoganda...it's seen for what it is, meshed together letters and opinions.

I'll rely on historical LEGAL documents like the NY Ratification Document, paragraph 4:

"That the powers of government may be reassumed by the people whensoever it shall become necessary to their happiness; that every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by the said Constitution clearly delegated to the Congress of the United States, or the departments of the government thereof, remains to the people of the several states, or to their respective state governments, to whom they may have granted the same; and that those clauses in the said Constitution, which declare that Congress shall not have or exercise certain powers, do not imply that Congress is entitled to any powers not given by the said Constitution; but such clauses are to be construed either as exceptions to certain specified powers, or as inserted merely for greater caution.

102 posted on 04/20/2012 4:57:47 AM PDT by mek1959
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To: BroJoeK
I apologize for the typo's...I accidentally posted this before I was completely finished. Again, my apologies; I will respond at length later.
103 posted on 04/20/2012 5:21:38 AM PDT by mek1959
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To: mek1959

What you cite is a signing statement which is designed to make people feel better about the commitment they are entering into, but carries no force of law.

It is the equivalent of a nod & a wink, or fingers crossed behind ones back. What the various states signed, when they ratified (and this explains why some took so long) was an “all in” agreement. There were no special deals.


104 posted on 04/20/2012 6:24:56 AM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: mek1959; fortheDeclaration; rockrr
mek1959: "I can assure you that you are wrong...or Jefferson (and a younger Madison) in 1798 were not founders...which is it?
You can't have it both ways."

Our Founders were those who first wrote the new Constitution, publicly supported it (i.e., The Federalist Papers), and then voted to confirm it.
They alone are entitled to tell us what was their Original Intent -- and that is a rather small group of men.
It certainly includes James Madison, Alexander Hamilton and John Jay -- the Federalists.

Those who voted against the new Constitution -- the anti-Federalists -- were not Founders, and their opinions were not the Founders' Original Intent.

And you may also be an anti-Federalist, and that's fine, it's a legitimate point of view, and can be argued reasonably.
But then you cannot at the same time claim the US Constitution is the source of authority for your opinions, because it's not.

You can't have it both ways.

As for Madison's "flip-flops" -- both real and alleged -- if you will study his words carefully, indeed the words of all True Founders, you'll see that whenever they approach the subject of "disunion", "disolving", "breaking the compact", "dissolution", or secession, etc., it is always with the subtext that this is an extreme measure only valid under extreme conditions such as "injury or oppression", and never authorized simply "at pleasure".

But none of those extreme conditions existed in November 1860, and so those Deep-South slave-holders who organized, met and declared their secession were doing so strictly "at pleasure."

And not even Southern sympathizing Dough-faced President Buchanan could accept their actions as constitutional or lawful, though he refused to take any serious actions to oppose them.

By the way, I've recently found a partial listing of Federal properties unlawfully seized both before and after formal declarations of secession.
It's an impressive list, including:

That's 145 places in total, worth many millions at a time when total Federal receipts were less that $60 million per year.
105 posted on 04/20/2012 6:31:34 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK
With all due respect to MamaTexan, who makes an effort to be both factual in presentation and somewhat neutral in tone...

Thank you kindly.

I do note, however, your post begins without even a whiff of neutrality.

their false history, their bogus narratives, their misdirections of arguments, unfounded accusations, baseless claims and fanciful conclusions

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only if it meets certain conditions such as mutual consent

1) Madison's letter, as in others of that time, state not only that his opinion be kept confidential: I will ask the favour of you to return the letter after it has passed under your partial & confidential eye.
but also that it should not be trusted:A man whose years have but reached the canonical three-score-&-ten (and mine are much beyond the number) should distrust himself, whether distrusted by his friends or not,

***

necessity caused by "injury or oppression".

Virginia's Ratifying document states:
declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression, and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will:

Since it was the People that gave their consent, it would be logical to assume that THEY were the sole judges of whether or not they were being subjected to 'injury or oppression'.

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2)As I see no point in rehashing this previously covered subject, please see post #36

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3)In November 1860, no material conditions existed for a constitutional and lawful secession

LOL! Can you say Personal Liberty Laws?

You know...those NULLIFYING laws passed in Northern States in order to prevent the return of fugitive slaves DESPITE the Constitutional enumeration to the contrary?

While one must recognize the immorality of slavery, anyone wishing to be a true, impartial judge of history is forced to recognize the [then] LEGALITY of it. Ones opinion cannot make the legal illegal.

In the law of contracts, breach by one party free the other(s) from obligation

If the South were to violate any part of the Constitution intentionally and systematically, and persist in so doing, year after year, and no remedy could be had, would the North be any longer bound by the rest of it? And if the North were deliberately, habitually, and of fixed purpose to disregard one part of it, would the South be bound any longer to observe its other obligations? I have not hesitated to say, and I repeat, that if the Northern States refuse, willfully and deliberately, to carry into effect that part of the Constitution which respects the restoration of fugitive slaves, and Congress provide no remedy, the South would no longer be bound to observe the compact. A bargain cannot be broken on one side and still bind the other side.
Speeches of Mr. Webster, 1851

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4) This one is unsourced opinion, so I see no reason to remark upon it.

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5)Beginning the process in November 1860, Deep-South slave-holders' formal Declarations of Secession were followed (and often preceded) by many unlawful acts of insurrection, rebellion and war against the United States.

While the Declaration of Secession is acknowledged, please give sources for your other accusations.

BTW - I'd also like to point out the Declaration was lawfully delivered via personal service to Congress on December 24, 1860

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6)Outgoing "Dough-face" President Buchanan did not agree that Deep-South secessionists were constitutional

He also erroneously thought Congress has power to make war and to make peace, so he didn't appear to be Constitutionally literate. The point of posting his speech was what, exactly?

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7)culminating in the April 1861 firing on and seizure of Federal Fort Sumter.

After the filing of the Notice of Intent, or Declaration of Secession, the ownership of Ft Sumter reverted to the State.

"The federal government, then, appears to be the organ through which the united republics communicate with foreign nations, and with each other. Their submission to its operation is voluntary: its councils, its sovereignty is an emanation from theirs, not a flame by which they have been consumed, nor a vortex in which they are swallowed up. Each is still a perfect state, still sovereign, still independent, and still capable, should the occasion require, to resume the exercise of its functions, as such, in the most unlimited extent.
St. George Tucker View of the Constitution of the United States – 1803 [paragraph 337]

It was fired upon because it was unlawfully occupied.

IMHO, being used as an excuse by the federal government to crush the South, it was pitiful. Not only had it sat unfinished for 30 years, the only battle fatality was a donkey.

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8) the Confederacy formally declared war on the United States, on May 6, 1861.

Which is the way it's supposed to be. A Declaration is a legal procedure REQUIRED before action can be taken. It's a requirement stipulated in the federal Constitution. Do you, perhaps, have a link to the federal governments Constitutionally required Declaration of War as signed by Congress?

To my knowledge, there was no Declaration of War, merely Lincoln’s Proclamation, and a proclamation does not a Declaration make.

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9) Again, unsourced opinion.

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10)four states of the Upper South -- Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Arkansas -- voted to join the Confederacy and the war.

True. Other States joined after the fact.

-----

So the bottom line is: where the Deep-South first unconstitutionally declared secession, and then declared war on the United States, the Upper-South voted simultaneously to secede and thus join the already declared war. Finally, our "Neo-Cons" often compare their secessionists of 1860 to our Founders in 1776. The comparison is laughable, the contrasts are stark.

What is 'laughable' is you show up so late to the party, say nothing that hasn't been said, and crow like you've made some type of pertinent point.

Although your post did have some pretty cool pictures.

106 posted on 04/20/2012 7:25:38 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: BroJoeK

Excellent post.

The Confederate secession was unAmerican, indeed it was in its very nature anti-American, based as it was on full-throated opposition to the American ideology that “all men are created equal.” Changing this to “all white men are created equal, and endowed by Creator with the right to enslave men of other colors.”

The Confederate ideology was a master race philosophy, and had it won out would have probably headed in a similar direction to that of another well-known master race ideology. There’s really nowhere else for such an ideology to go.


107 posted on 04/20/2012 8:27:29 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: MamaTexan
He also erroneously thought Congress has power to make war and to make peace, so he didn't appear to be Constitutionally literate.

I'm unsure why you think this was erroneous, as Congress most surely shares this power with the executive. Unless you think the President is empowered by the Constitution to make war and peace at his own pleasure?

BTW, in his speech denying the right to secede, Buchanan refers to seditious pamphlets spread by abolitionists throughout the South in 1835. Let's leave aside this was 25 years before. Do you know of anywhere the text of such pamphlets is available? I'm curious to read them.

108 posted on 04/20/2012 8:41:07 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
I'm unsure why you think this was erroneous, as Congress most surely shares this power with the executive.

It's not a shared power.

The authority to declare war belongs to the legislative branch via Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11.

The ability to make peace belongs to the executive branch via Article 2, Section 2, Clause 2.

IMHO, the Founders rightly believed it should be difficult to start war, yet easy to end it.

§ 1168. In the convention, in the first draft of the constitution, the power was given merely "to make war." It was subsequently, and not without some struggle, altered to its present form. It was proposed to add the power "to make peace;" but this was unanimously rejected; upon the plain ground, that it more properly belonged to the treaty-making power. The experience of congress, under the confederation, of the difficulties, attendant upon vesting the treaty-making power in a large legislative body, was too deeply felt to justify the hazard of another experiment.
Joseph Story Commentaries on the Constitution

-----

Let's leave aside this was 25 years before. Do you know of anywhere the text of such pamphlets is available? I'm curious to read them.

No, but doing a general search for the year and the subject usually brings up something.

109 posted on 04/20/2012 10:16:21 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: MamaTexan; Sherman Logan; fortheDeclaration; rockrr
BJK from post #100: 9. "Prior to that Declaration of War, [May 6, 1861] no Confederate soldier had been killed by any Union force."

Mama Texan: "9) Again, unsourced opinion."

I'll take this one first, since it's a simpler matter.

A number of people on both sides suffered injury or death before the first real battle between opposing military forces, a battle in which the first Confederate soldier was killed directly by a Union force.

It was the Battle of Big Bethel, also called the Battle of Bethel Church or Great Bethel, on June 10, 1861, more than a month after the Confederacy declared war on the United States.

The Confederate soldier killed at Big Bethel was Pvt Henry Wyatt of Co A 11st North Carolina.

Here is a more detailed account of the events.

Yes, back on June 1, 1861, at the Battle of Fairfax Court House,

But actual circumstances of Captain Marr's death are unknown, and include the possibility of fratricide:

Here's the bottom line: there are no reports of any Southern soldiers being killed directly by a Union force before the Confederacy's Declaration of War on May 6, 1861.

So, unlike for example, in the American Revolution of 1776, there was no actual war going on before the Confederacy started it, especially at Fort Sumter, then formally declared war, on May 6, 1861.

And by the way, I should say: this was absolutely no accident, since President Lincoln had announced in his Inagural Address on March 16, 1861, that:

"In your hands, my dissatisfied fellow-countrymen, and not in mine, Is the momentous issue of civil war.

The government will not assail you.
You can have no conflict without being yourselves the aggressors.
You have no oath registered in heaven to destroy the government, while I shall have the most solemn one to "preserve, protect, and defend" it.
I am loth to close.
We are not enemies, but friends.
We must not be enemies.
Though passion may have strained, it must not break our bonds of affection.

The mystic chords of memory, stretching from every battle-field and patriot grave to every living heart and hearth-stone all over this broad land, will yet swell the chorus of the Union, when again touched, as surely they will be, by the better angels of our nature."

I'll answer your other items in sequence, when I can get back to it.

110 posted on 04/20/2012 11:31:38 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: MamaTexan
The ability to make peace belongs to the executive branch via Article 2, Section 2, Clause 2.

This is incomplete. The treaty-making power is shared with the Senate, which is required to "advise and consent" by a 2/3 majority to any treaty.

The "advise" portion has never really been implemented, but the consent portion still works. So the president cannot make peace without 2/3 of the Senate consenting. Though the Congress also does not really have the power to force the C in C to wage a war of which he disapproves.

The power to make war is also not exclusively legislative. Depending on what you define as "war," the US has been involved in some dozens of wars. The Congress has formally declared war only five times, most recently in 1941.

The control of the Congress over presidential war-making is much more related to the power of the purse than to the power to declare war, which we don't do anymore, though congressional authorizations to use force, as in the Iraq War, are IMO the functional equivalent.

As I said, the war and peace making powers are both shared between the legislative and executive.

111 posted on 04/20/2012 11:33:27 AM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan
As I said, the war and peace making powers are both shared between the legislative and executive.

As I've given the Constitutional Articles and clauses for my assertion, please be kind enough to provide sources for your claim.

112 posted on 04/20/2012 11:54:42 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: BroJoeK
I'll take this one first, since it's a simpler matter.

Fair enough. No Confederate soldier had been killed by any Union force prior to the Declaration of War.

Since the subject was the constitutionality of secession and not battle casualties, I really don't see what it has to do with the subject.

-------

I'll answer your other items in sequence, when I can get back to it.

I look forward to you response.

113 posted on 04/20/2012 12:01:05 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: MamaTexan

you=your


114 posted on 04/20/2012 12:02:23 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: BroJoeK; MamaTexan

Actually, the civil war was proceeding in and around Indian Territory as early as March, 1861. Confederate Colonel Stand Watie and his Cherokee troops had taken Fort Smith, held raids into Missouri, along with some Texans in the early spring.

A little here:

http://www.civilwaralbum.com/washita/OR.htm

I’m looking for some dates on this, just going from notes in a book about the Civil War in Indian Territory.

“Jesus Wept” An American Story

http://jesusweptanamericanstory.blogspot.com/

Watie was also the last to cease hostilities, June, 1865, months after Lee surrendered. Watie did not surrender, but agreed to cease hostilities. My grgrgrandfather wrote the agreement with the Union.


115 posted on 04/20/2012 12:05:35 PM PDT by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: MamaTexan
MamaTexan: "Fair enough. No Confederate soldier had been killed by any Union force prior to the Declaration of War.
Since the subject was the constitutionality of secession and not battle casualties, I really don't see what it has to do with the subject."

My argument in post #100 included 10 items, of which items 1 - 4 dealt with the constitutionality of secession.

Items 5 - 10 covered the Confederacy's insurrections and formal declaration of war on the United States.

Item 9 simply pointed out that there was no physical war -- and no Confederate soldiers had been killed -- before the Confederacy decided to start, wage and formally declare war on the United States.

The real truth of the matter is that Confederates wanted war, because they expected to win, and believed war was by far simpler than waging many years of compromising legal battles in the Supreme Court, in Congress or in elections necessary to achieve a constitutionally authorized secession by mutual consent.

116 posted on 04/20/2012 12:22:06 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: AuntB
Confederate Colonel Stand Watie and his Cherokee troops had taken Fort Smith, held raids into Missouri, along with some Texans in the early spring.

Your post it very timely, particularly since I was just searching for a FReeper by that name less than an hour ago, but I couldn't remember the correct spelling.

Interesting information. Thanks for posting!

117 posted on 04/20/2012 12:24:53 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: MamaTexan
Article 2, Section 2: (The President) shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur

If that isn't a description of a shared power, I don't know what would be.

Article 1, Section 3: The Congress shall have power ... To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water; To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years; To provide and maintain a Navy; To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Force

Article 2, Section 1: The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States

This again shows shared power. Neither branch can make war if the other refuses to proceed. The President cannot make war unless Congress provides the funds, and Congress cannot order the military to make one move except through the President.

If these aren't shared powers, what would you call them?

118 posted on 04/20/2012 12:39:31 PM PDT by Sherman Logan
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To: BroJoeK
My argument in post #100 included 10 items, of which items 1 - 4 dealt with the constitutionality of secession. Items 5 - 10 covered the Confederacy's insurrections and formal declaration of war on the United States.

All of which were sourced and refuted in post#106.

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Item 9 simply pointed out that there was no physical war -- and no Confederate soldiers had been killed -- before the Confederacy decided to start, wage and formally declare war on the United States.

To which I agreed.

-------

The real truth of the matter is that Confederates wanted war, because they expected to win, and believed war was by far simpler than waging many years of compromising legal battles in the Supreme Court, in Congress or in elections necessary to achieve a constitutionally authorized secession by mutual consent.

The REAL truth is the South had two choices: leave or have their agrarian based economy obliterated....all because a 250 year old institution acknowledged by the Constitution had become unpopular.

Had the Union not decided free association could be kept by force of arms, they would have then have had the legitimate ability to change the Constitution to prohibit slavery, and could have rightfully protected every slave that managed to make it across the border....but I guess THAT would have been too easy.

-----

I've given sources to support the constitutionality of secession, yet you ignore them and rattle on as if your conjecture is fact.

And I'm STILL waiting for you to show me the Unions Constitutionally required Declaration of War.

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Allow the president to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such a purpose—and you allow him to make war at pleasure.
Abraham Lincoln ~ Letter to William Herndon Feb. 15, 1848

119 posted on 04/20/2012 12:48:15 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: AuntB
AuntB: "Actually, the civil war was proceeding in and around Indian Territory as early as March, 1861.
Confederate Colonel Stand Watie and his Cherokee troops had taken Fort Smith, held raids into Missouri, along with some Texans in the early spring."

Near as I can tell, Watie's official role in the Confederate Army began in July 1861.

Battle of Wilson's Creek aka Battle of Oak Hills, August 10, 1861:

And here is a second version of events:

"After a majority of the Cherokee Nation voted to support the Confederacy in the American Civil War, Watie organized a regiment of cavalry.

"In October 1861, he was commissioned as colonel in the 1st Cherokee Mounted Rifles.
Although he fought Federal troops, he also led his men in fighting between factions of the Cherokee, as well as against the Creek, Seminole and others in Indian Territory who chose to support the Union.

"Watie is noted for his role in the Battle of Pea Ridge, Arkansas, on March 6–8, 1862.
Watie's troops captured Union artillery positions and covered the retreat of Confederate forces from the battlefield after the Union took control."

Battle of Pea Ridge, March 6-8, 1862:

So my point here still stands: no Southern soldier was killed by any Union force before the Confederacy started and formally declared war on the United States, on May 6, 1861.

And the simple reason that's true is because President Lincoln on his first day in office had ordered that there could not be war unless the secessionists started it.

120 posted on 04/20/2012 12:48:36 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: MamaTexan
MamaTexan: "All of which were sourced and refuted in post#106."

None of which were refuted in your post #106.
But now, truly, this is it -- this is as much fun as I can stand in one day, got to leave something for another time.

So I promise, I'll return to your post #106, next chance I get.

;-)

121 posted on 04/20/2012 12:54:52 PM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: Sherman Logan
If that isn't a description of a shared power, I don't know what would be.

See? That wasn't so hard, was it?

Buchanan should have been more careful with his verbiage, as his blanket statement is misleading.

'Congress has the power to declare war and consent to peace' would have been a lot more accurate, IMHO.

122 posted on 04/20/2012 12:59:08 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: MamaTexan
The REAL truth is the South had two choices: leave or have their agrarian based economy obliterated....all because a 250 year old institution acknowledged by the Constitution had become unpopular.

That's simply inaccurate. There was a third choice - or what should have been the slaveocracy's first choice - maintain the status quo. Lincoln said that his wish was to keep the union intact - with or without slavery. He was willing to suspend his own views, and the views of the abolitionists if that was what it took to keep us together.

Maintaining the status quo would mean that they could continue to own other humans and use them as chattel with only a minor irritant coming from those pesky abolitionists. They could continue to hold a prominent position in Congress and likely regain the white house.

Life could have remained good, at least for the slavemasters, and at least for a while. But the fire-eaters knew that the world was evolving and that they would not be able to hold the water back for much longer.

The War of Southern Aggression was their last gasp effort to impose their worldview on the rest of the nation. Didn't work out too well, did it?

123 posted on 04/20/2012 1:34:24 PM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: BroJoeK
Excellent post!

But the simple fact is that there is no right to secession and the Confederates fired on a Federal fort.

It is an act of rebellion plain and simple.

124 posted on 04/20/2012 1:46:54 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (How strangely will the Tools of a Tyrant pervert the plain Meaning of Words!-Sam Adams)
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To: BroJoeK

” He was commissioned a colonel on July 12, 1861,.....
So my point here still stands: no Southern soldier was killed by any Union force before the Confederacy started and formally declared war on the United States, on May 6, 1861.

And the simple reason that’s true is because President Lincoln on his first day in office had ordered that there could not be war unless the secessionists started it.”

I didn’t speak to any southern soldier being killed before that, because I don’t know, but it does seem likely even though the Cherokee soldiers were not yet officially ‘Confederate’soldiers. And yes, the confederacy commissioned him Colonel in the summer. He was Brigadier General by the end of the war. I’m just telling you they were active up into Missouri and took fort Smith months before that.
The Cherokee were more interested in their own sovereignty than the north vs south battle, detested Lincoln because he and his political friends were ‘free soilers’ wanting more Indian land and had been waiting for this conflict for years.

John Rollin Ridge, another Cheorkee who was living in Califoria at the time, wrote about this in 1849.

“I shall not return to the Nation now until circumstances are materially changed. I shall cast my fortunes for some years with the whites. I am twenty-three years old, married, and have an infant daughter. I will still devote my life to my people, though not amongst them, and before I die, I hope to see the Cherokee Nation, in conjunction, with the Choctaws, admitted into the Confederacy of the United States.”


125 posted on 04/20/2012 2:41:00 PM PDT by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: mek1959
You guys think opposing opinions are only "concepts" or "interpretations" while your own are somehow "facts."

Between somebody who reads the Constitution carefully to find out how states are admitted and what happens when federal and state laws conflict and somebody who just assumes that states are sovereign and have the right to do as they please, who's doing their homework and who's just spinning theories out of the air?

As our country fought wars, accumulated a national debt, acquired land and created new states bonds and obligations were created. We became in fact (as we were in the Constitution from its adoption) something more than a weak league or alliance of independent states, and the idea that one state owed no obligations to the others became harder to believe.

More later.

126 posted on 04/20/2012 2:55:29 PM PDT by x
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To: MamaTexan

” Your post it very timely, particularly since I was just searching for a FReeper by that name less than an hour ago, but I couldn’t remember the correct spelling.

Interesting information. Thanks for posting! “

Thank you. Stand Watie was a fascinating character. He was articulate, a devout Christian and beloved leader who inspired a rare kind of loyalty. If you go to that website, you’ll see a rare photo of him in his younger days. He was married to my grgraunt who was known as Sally, also pictured. I was blessed to find volumes of family letters left by them. And my father knew for 23 years and often spoke with his grgrandfather James Madison Bell, Watie’s Brother in law, friend & Colonel/strategist/lawyer, so the stories were pretty ‘fresh’ for as long ago as it was. My dad was born in 1893. Jim Bell lived until 1915, 88 years.
Any quotes below were taken from actual letters. I didn’t need or want to put words in these people’s mouths. They were more than capable of speaking for themselves.

This is how Jim Bell described the ‘peace’ agreement. He returned from the war to find his wife near death.

From Chapter 14 “Peace”

Bell could hardly distinguish the difference in the emotions boiling inside him. Was it the joy in his children’s faces or a tragic irony he felt most as he moved alone through the door to his failing wife.

He exited later with more determination than when he entered. Still he was consumed with the thought that the last day of this war and finally coming home to his family would be the worst day of it all. “Children, everybody, gather your things. Tomorrow, we prepare to go home.”

Sally couldn’t have agreed more. “I don’t believe I could live one year longer if I knew that we could not be settled...I am so perfectly sick of the world!” proclaimed Sally, who couldn’t get out of the refugee camps of Texas soon enough. “I never knew so much of this world as I do since I came to this country. I used to think that everyone had some sort of a soul, but one half of them has only gizzards, and some only craws!”

“Jim?” Sally looked worried. “Where is my husband and my son? Why aren’t they with you?”

“They’re fine, Sister. They’ll be along soon enough. General Watie commissioned me and Colonel Adair to meet with General Francis Herron and Brigadier-General Veatch in Shreveport to negotiate terms of surrender for the Confederate Cherokee. We prepared papers and agreement to cease hostilities. They and the others have probably signed by now. We agree only on our terms of no retaliation to us by the Federals and not relinquishing any of our lands except to provide for the Negroes. We’ve been reassured they will sign.”

He explained more of the meeting. “We begged for arrangements to be made for the Confederacy to feed all these indigent refugees. We told him the refugees are in a state of the greatest destitution and desperate from impending starvation. I think Veatch was impressed by our presentation, though he has no authority himself to appropriate funds for such a purpose, he sent our request to his superior with the recommendation that it would probably be cheaper to feed the refugees than to punish them for raiding and stealing.”

Jim dug into a pocket. “This is a note Stand sent for you.” Sally read out loud.

“My Dear Sally,
We leave this morning. Intend to go as far as Jarrett’s. Have agreed upon the cessation of hostilities with the commanders. They will leave tomorrow. Gen. Smith had surrendered the whole department on the 26th day of May. The grand council will convene 1st day of Sep when a commander from Washington is expected to arrive. I will return home soon as our council is over at Nail’s mill.
Your Husband, Stand”

I did as little editing as possible of their words, and they didn’t need much correction. These were well educated people.

http://jesusweptanamericanstory.blogspot.com/


127 posted on 04/20/2012 3:08:28 PM PDT by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: MamaTexan; Sherman Logan; x; rockrr
MamaTexan: "I do note, however, your post begins without even a whiff of neutrality."

I'm not in the least neutral, but do try to avoid insulting anyone personally. ;-)

MamaTexan, referring to item 1, Madison's rejection of secession "at pleasure":

"1) Madison's letter, as in others of that time, state not only that his opinion be kept confidential: 'I will ask the favour of you to return the letter after it has passed under your partial & confidential eye'.

"but also that it should not be trusted: 'A man whose years have but reached the canonical three-score-&-ten (and mine are much beyond the number) should distrust himself, whether distrusted by his friends or not', "

You've taken Madison's words out of context.
The full context clearly shows he does not mean what you impute:

"Having suffered my pen to take this ramble over a subject engaging so much of your attention, I will not withhold the notes made by it from your persual.
But being aware that without more development & precision, they may in some instances be liable to misapprehension or misconstruction, I will ask the favour of you to return the letter after it has passed under your partial & confidential eye.

"I have made no secret of my surprize and sorrow at the proceedings in S. Carolina, which are understood to assert a right to annul the Acts of Congress within the State, & even to secede from the Union itself.
But I am unwilling to enter the political field with the "telum imbelle" which alone I could wield.
The task of combating such unhappy aberrations belongs to other hands.
A man whose years have but reached the canonical three-score-&-ten (and mine are much beyond the number) should distrust himself, whether distrusted by his friends or not, and should never forget that his arguments, whatever they may be will be answered by allusions to the date of his birth."

Clearly Madison is here referring to his waining abilities to engage the rough & tumble of public debates, not to the validity of his own views.
Madison is now just too old of a political warrior -- a "telum imbelle" -- to reenter the political battles.
Now is time for a new generation to lead the charge.

MamaTexan: "Since it was the People that gave their consent, it would be logical to assume that THEY were the sole judges of whether or not they were being subjected to 'injury or oppression'."

First of all, there was no "injury or oppression" in November 1860 -- zero, zip, nada -- when South Carolina began to secede, nor does South Carolina's Declaration of the Immediate Causes claim any "injury or oppression".

In fact, it lists only two specifics, neither of which qualify as, or are even claimed to be "injury or oppression."

And the reason is simple and obvious: South Carolinians did not believe that any such standard as "injury or oppression" restricted their "right of secession."
Instead, South Carolinians believed they did have an unlimited "right to secede" for any reason, or for no reason -- in short, they could secede in Madison's words, "at pleasure".

But secession "at pleasure" was not according to the Founders' Original Intent, and therefore was unconstitutional.
And when combined with unlawful actions such as seizures of Federal properties, threats of violence against Federal personnel, and military assaults on Federal forces, these are so far from being constitutional and lawful they fall in the Constitution's categories of insurrection, rebellion and domestic violence.

MamaTexan referring to: "2) As I see no point in rehashing this previously covered subject, please see post #36"

The 1794 Whiskey Rebellion demonstrates our Founders' Original Intent in the Constitution regarding the subjects of insurrection, rebellion and "domestic violence."

That's a fact.

MamaTexan referring to item #3, 'no material conditions existed':
"LOL! Can you say Personal Liberty Laws?
You know...those NULLIFYING laws passed in Northern States in order to prevent the return of fugitive slaves DESPITE the Constitutional enumeration to the contrary?"

First of all, we really need to celebrate the overly rich irony here, that South Carolina which had previously threatened to nullify Federal laws it didn't like, is here complaining about some State laws it claims are unconstitutional.
How ludicrous is that?

But more to the point, this is an obvious legal matter for the US Supreme Court to settle, and yet South Carolina made no effort to address its concerns appropriately in court.

In short, this specific complaint is still bogus to the max, without any merit, it's a crock of nonsense and doesn't even pretend to meet the standard of "injury or oppression" by the Federal Government.

MamaTexan referring to: "4) This one is unsourced opinion, so I see no reason to remark upon it."

No, it's a simple fact: in 1860 President Buchanan, his Cabinet, the Supreme Court, and Congress were all effectively controlled by Southerners with their Dough-face Northern allies -- no opinion to it.

MamaTexan referring to item 5:
"While the Declaration of Secession is acknowledged, please give sources for your other accusations."

See my response in post #105 above.
Most of this data can also be found in Fredriksen's Civil War Almanac.

MamaTexan on item 6 referring to Dough-face President Buchanan:
"He also erroneously thought Congress has power to make war and to make peace, so he didn't appear to be Constitutionally literate.
The point of posting his speech was what, exactly?"

First, you seem to have a very strange idea here, which Sherman Logan has tried to correct you on (posts 108 & 111), but you don't yet seem to understand or admit.
So I'm not sure what exactly your problem is here...

But second, to your question: you must understand the Great Slave Power, also called the slaveocracy, which ruled the United States almost the entire time from it's founding until secession began in early 1861.
Yes, the Slave Power was always a minority in the nation, but it was the majority within the majority Democrat party and maintained its dominance through the agencies of willing Dough-face Northerners, of whom President James Buchanan was a typical example.

Buchanan was a friend of the South -- "a Northern man of Southern principles" in language of that day -- Buchanan believed in slavery, he supported and helped implement the Supreme Court's Dred Scott decision, and also backed other Southern agenda items.

In short, Buchanan was the South's man in the White House, but even Buchanan could not support secession "at pleasure", and would not hand over Fort Sumter, despite South Carolina's repeated demands and threats.

That's why it matters.

MamaTexan referring to item 7: "After the filing of the Notice of Intent, or Declaration of Secession, the ownership of Ft Sumter reverted to the State."

That claim is without basis in any law whatsoever, has no merit or even logic to it, as the South Carolina representatives in Washington acknowledged, in offering to pay for properties they seized.

But even Dough-faced President Buchanan was under no legal obligation to sell Federal property to South Carolina, and he rightly refused to do so.

MamaTexan referring to item 7, Ft Sumter:
"It was fired upon because it was unlawfully occupied.
IMHO, being used as an excuse by the federal government to crush the South,"

First, nothing lawfully transferred ownership of any Federal property to any secessionist entity.
Second, the Confederacy was crushed because it formally declared war on the United States, on May 6, 1861.

MamaTexan referring to item 8, the Confederacy's Declaration of War:
"Do you, perhaps, have a link to the federal governments Constitutionally required Declaration of War as signed by Congress?
To my knowledge, there was no Declaration of War, merely Lincoln’s Proclamation, and a proclamation does not a Declaration make."

By my count, this site lists a total of 71 US military operations, wars or "quazi-wars" during the 85 years from 1776 through 1861, of which only two were formally declared by Congress: the War of 1812 and the Mexican-American War of 1846.
Most of the others did receive specific Congressional approval, and as far as I know, no Congress ever "undeclared" a war.

But formal declarations of war were rare in any case, and were never used to suppress insurrections, rebellion or "domestic violence."

In 1861 Congress did approve everything appropriate to approve that President Lincoln did.
But a declaration of war was not appropriate, and Congress didn't make one.

MamaTexan referring to '9. Prior to that Declaration of War, no Confederate soldier had been killed by any Union force.':
"9) Again, unsourced opinion."

See my response in post #110 above.

MamaTexan referring to item 10:
"True. Other States joined after the fact."

And the point is: those Upper-South states of Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Arkansas voted not only for secession, but also for the formally declared war against the United States.
So they knew ahead of time they were going to war and chose to join it.

128 posted on 04/21/2012 8:07:57 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: BroJoeK

Excellent post and summary (not that anyone is keeping score, LOL).


129 posted on 04/21/2012 8:30:50 AM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: mek1959
Finally, the UNION is NOT owned by the people of the 50 states (though you probably believe it is), nor is it owned by the national government. It is OWNED by the people of that particular State, privately and corporately by their consent through their STATE constitutional form of government.

Individuals own property. Corporations and governments can also own property. I'm not sure that the state owns what you own or that you and all the other people in the state own your property.

I don't know where you're going with this. As I see it there are two matters involved here.

First, if the federal government paid money for land to build post offices, court houses, mints, custom houses, and forts, how does that differ from you or me paying money to buy a house or shop? The state government that can expropriate federal buildings can also expropriate you or me. Allowing them to do so isn't a victory for individualism or liberty.

If the federal government was granted land (or more likely water space) to build a fort on, can a state simply declare that it is grabbing back the fort and the land (or the fort that was built on those waters)? Well, there wasn't any kind of international court in those days, and the secessionists didn't want to go to the courts.

The law of enclaves and exclaves (like Guantanamo, West Berlin, Hong Kong, Macao, and those bits of Armenia in Azerbaijan and of Azerbaijan on the other side of Armenia) also wasn't very well developed in those days either, but I'd say the federal government had a pretty good case at law for retaining the fort.

But beyond the law, what about caution, prudence, and statesmanship? Or magnanimity, generosity, and gratitude? Letting the feds retain their fort would have been a small price to pay for independence if that's what South Carolina or a new nation composed of Southern states wanted.

Cooler heads and moderation might have made secession a reality, but that wasn't to be. A spirit of anger, hatred, panic, and victimization was exactly the wrong way to approach secession. Unfortunately for the disunionists, that was precisely the spirit that would prevail when secession talk came prevail in the slave states.

Again, that you believe all the "territory" is communal or owned by the national government betrays a very unhealthy devotion you have to socialism (cure music "We are the World). So "x," the PEOPLE of that State can do whatever they want to do with the land within the boarders of that State.

Second, what you're arguing, that "the PEOPLE of that State can do whatever they want to do with the land within the borders of that State" does sound a lot like socialism. I wouldn't say that the federal government or any government can do what they want with the people or land within their boarders or that property rights can be ignored. But you grant to state governments the same excessive power that you fear in the federal government.

I also have to wonder about the way you set things up here. If I live somewhere within the borders of the United Statest, it may matter where I can live and what I can do with my property whether I'm American or Canadian or Mexican. Being a US citizen in the US may mean that I have rights and obligations that a non-citzen may not have. In that sense I may be a part "owner" of the country.

Does it matter if I'm a Virginian or an New Yorker? Not so much, unless it was 150 years ago and we're talking about the right to own slaves. In so far as I'm a resident of a state, I have a right to vote and an obligation to pay taxes, but "citizenship" in a state isn't as big a deal as US citizenship, and that was true even in 1860 (slavery apart).

130 posted on 04/21/2012 10:15:35 AM PDT by x
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To: rockrr
Didn't work out too well, did it?

No, particularly since Lincoln's actions nullified the Compact.

§ 203. The treaty is void by the destruction of one of the contracting powers …….Thus, when a state is destroyed and the people are dispersed, or when they are subdued by a conqueror, all their alliances and treaties fall to the ground with the public power that had contracted them.
Book II, Chapter VIII, Law of Nations

Congratulations, you won, and your reward is an unlimited government.

131 posted on 04/22/2012 12:34:44 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: MamaTexan
No, particularly since Lincoln's actions nullified the Compact.

Sure, right after the south crapped all over it. Congratulations, we all won, although some are too pig-headed to recognize it.

132 posted on 04/22/2012 12:37:06 PM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: AuntB
I did as little editing as possible of their words, and they didn’t need much correction. These were well educated people.

Yes, they were. You make me ashamed to admit my ignorance when it comes to the Cherokee people.

Particularly since my ancestors intermarried with them on a fairly regular basis for several centuries!

133 posted on 04/22/2012 12:39:15 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: rockrr
Sure, right after the south crapped all over it.

Oh, goody.

Another member of the Blah Blah Brigade.

No legal cites, no Constitutional Articles, no quotes from anyone....just blah, blah, the South was wrong.

Have a nice day whilst wallowing in your ignorance.

134 posted on 04/22/2012 12:43:18 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: BroJoeK
I'm not in the least neutral, but do try to avoid insulting anyone personally. ;-)

I appreciate your restraint.
[and that's a sincere statement, not a sarcastic one]

-----

You've taken Madison's words out of context. The full context clearly shows he does not mean what you impute:

As Madison’s admonition that a man of his age should distrust himself, whether distrusted by his friends or not appears in his closing statement, there is no logic in the assumption his words were taken ‘out of context’.

-----

First, South Carolina alleges that, not the Federal Government, but some state governments have passed laws which interfere with the Constitution's fugitive slave provision. But this didn't suddenly happen in November 1860, the same conditions existed for many years, during which South Carolina made no attempts to secede or deal lawfully with the problem.

§ 200. How a treaty is dissolved, when violated by one of the contracting parties.
Treaties contain promises that are perfect and reciprocal. If one of the allies fails in his engagements, the other may compel him to fulfill them: — a perfect promise confers a right to do so. But, if the latter has no other expedient than that of arms to force his ally to the performance of his promises, he will sometimes find it more eligible to cancel the promises on his own side also, and to dissolve the treaty. He has undoubtedly a right to do this, since his promises were made only on condition that the ally should, on his part, execute every thing which he had engaged to perform.

The South waited until the promise to perform was broken repeatedly. Had they leaped at the first instance, they would have been vilified for that as well.

§ 202. The violation of one article in a treaty may cancel the whole
………Every thing, therefore, which is comprehended in the same treaty, is of the same force and nature as a reciprocal promise unless where a formal exception is made to the contrary. Grotius very properly observes that "every article of a treaty carries with it a condition, by the non-performance of which the treaty is wholly cancelled."2
Law of Nations , Book II, Chap. XIII

For those wishing to claim the Law of Nations has no internal effect on the Constitution:
It will be remembered, that the object of the several states in the adoption of that instrument, was not the establishment of a general consolidated government, which should swallow up the state sovereignties, and annihilate their several jurisdictions, and powers, as states; but a federal government, with powers limited to certain determinate objects; viz. their intercourse and concerns with foreign nations; and with each other, as separate and independent states; and, as members of the same confederacy: leaving the administration of their internal, and domestic concerns, to the absolute and uncontrolable jurisdiction of the states, respectively; except in one or two particular instances, specified, and enumerated in the constitution. And because this principle was supposed not to have been expressed with sufficient precision, and certainty, an amendatory article was proposed, adopted, and ratified; whereby it is expressly declared, that, “the powers not delegated to the United States by the constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.” This article is, indeed, nothing more than an express recognition of the law of nations; for Vattel informs us, “that several sovereign, and independent states may unite themselves together by a perpetual confederacy, without each in particular ceasing to be a perfect state. They will form together a federal republic: the deliberations in common will offer no violence to the sovereignty of each member, though they may in certain respects put some constraint on the exercise of it, in virtue of voluntary engagements.
View of the Constitution of the United States George Tucker

I don’t recall claiming any injury or oppression was committed ‘by the federal government’. If you believe this statement to be in error, please show me where I’ve done so, and I will not hesitate to apologize for the blunder.

-----

South Carolina's second specific is the real reason: the election of Abraham Lincoln's Republican party. And why is that a problem?

Because his opinions and purposes were are hostile to slavery, just as they stated.

in short, they could secede in Madison's words, "at pleasure".

Madison’s words concerned the actions taken by South Carolina over federal tariffs, and had nothing to do with the respective States failing to uphold Constitutional provisions.

The reply to all such suggestions seems to be unavoidable and irresistible; that the Constitution is a compact, that its text is to be expounded according to the provisions for expounding it– making a part of the compact; and that none of the parties can rightfully renounce the expounding provision more than any other part. When such a right accrues, as may accrue, it must grow out of abuses of the compact, releasing the sufferers from their fealty to it.
James Madison to Edward Everett 28 Aug. 1830

-----

The 1794 Whiskey Rebellion demonstrates our Founders' Original Intent in the Constitution regarding the subjects of insurrection, rebellion and "domestic violence."

And gives Constitutional procedures for same. Please see post#90.

-----

First of all, we really need to celebrate the overly rich irony here, that South Carolina which had previously threatened to nullify Federal laws it didn't like, is here complaining about some State laws it claims are unconstitutional. How ludicrous is that?

Since they were concerning TWO SEPARATE AUTHORITIES, it’s not ludicrous at all.

------

No, it's a simple fact: in 1860 President Buchanan, his Cabinet, the Supreme Court, and Congress were all effectively controlled by Southerners with their Dough-face Northern allies -- no opinion to it.

Wikapedia is a great starting point, but I have trouble trusting a ‘source’ that can be altered by anyone with a computer.

Political protestations aside, Dred Scott was a Constitutionally sound decision, so what was your point?

-----

See my response in post #105 above. Most of this data can also be found in Fredriksen's Civil War Almanac.

So the options are to either take a page designed by the Lincoln Museum as gospel or buy a book? LOL! Not hardly.

-----

First, you seem to have a very strange idea here, which Sherman Logan has tried to correct you on (posts 108 & 111), but you don't yet seem to understand or admit.

Please see post #122.

-----

Yes, the Slave Power was always a minority in the nation,

Ensuring equality of both the majority as well as the minority IS one of the primary purposes of a Republican form of government.

P.S. No notice has been taken in the inclosed paper of the fact, that the present charge of usurpations & abuses of power, is not that they are measures of the Govt. violating the will of its Constituents, as was the case with the Alien & Sedition Acts, but that they are measures of a Majority of the Constituents themselves, oppressing the Minority thro’ the forms of the Govt. This distinction would lead to very different views of the topics under discussion. It is connected with the fundamental principles of Rep: Govt: and with the question of comparative danger of oppressive Majorities from the Sphere and Structure of the General Govt. and from those of the particular Govts.
James Madison to Edward Everett 17 April 1830

-----

That claim is without basis in any law whatsoever, has no merit or even logic to it, as the South Carolina representatives in Washington acknowledged, in offering to pay for properties they seized.

After the Declaration of Secession, the ownership of Ft Sumter did revert to the State, in accordance with the Law of Nations. [I'd also like to note this also covers the causes for a justified war]

§ 212. To what the sovereign is bound.
But, if the agreement has given nothing to the state which she did not before possess, — if, as in that of the Furcæ Caudinæ, the advantage simply consists in her escape from an impending danger, her preservation from a threatened loss, — such advantage is a boon of fortune, which she may enjoy without scruple. Who would refuse to be saved by the folly of his enemy? And who would think himself obliged to indemnify that enemy for the advantage he had suffered to escape him, when no fraud had been used to induce him to forego that advantage?
Book II, Chap XIV

-----

Second, the Confederacy was crushed because it formally declared war on the United States, on May 6, 1861.

Had the federal government actually followed the Law of Nations, the Constitution and the precepts of a Republican government that they were ALL sworn to uphold, it would not have been necessary to declare war.

A war, I might add, whose foundation was both reasonable and proper.

------

In 1861 Congress did approve everything appropriate to approve that President Lincoln did.

Oh, I’m certain they were ALL on board after-the-fact.

Odd how they were questioning what he was doing prior to that, though. Specifically, on Monday, February 11, 1861-
Resolved, That the President of the United States furnish to this House, if not incompatible with the public service, the reasons that have induced him to assemble so large a number of troops in this city, and why they are kept here.
Lincoln was amassing troops prior to the Declaration of War. In fact that’s WHY war was declared.

§ 42. Whether the aggrandizement of a neighbouring power can authorize a war against him. Here a very celebrated question, and of the highest importance, presents itself. It is asked, whether the aggrandizement of a neighbouring power, by whom a nation fears she may one day be crushed, be a sufficient reason for making war against him — whether she be justifiable in taking up arms to oppose his aggrandizement, or to weaken him, with the sole view of securing herself from those dangers which the weaker states have almost always reason to apprehend from an overgrown power. To the majority of politicians this question is no problem: it is more difficult of solution to those who wish to see justice and prudence ever inseparably united.

On the one hand, a state that increases her power by all the arts of good government, does no more than what is commendable — she fulfils her duties towards herself without violating those which she owes to other nations. The sovereign, who, by inheritance, by free election, or by any other just and honourable means, enlarges his dominions by the addition of new provinces or entire kingdoms, only makes use of his right, without injuring any person. How then should it be lawful to attack a state which, for its aggrandizement, makes use only of lawful means? We must either have actually suffered an injury or be visibly threatened with one, before we are authorized to take up arms, or have just grounds for making war (§§ 26, 27).
Book II, Chap III, Law of Nations

I’d call amassing 75,000 troops a VERY visible threat. Apparently, so did the Confederate States

But a declaration of war was not appropriate

For your instances of actions involving the Navy or the seas, no.

It is not easy to perceive where this power could, with us, be more prudently placed. But it must be remembered, that we may be involved in a war without a formal declaration of it. In the year 1800, we were engaged in a qualified, but public, war with France; qualified, because it was only waged on the high seas--public, because the whole nation was involved in it.
William Rawle

For the use of the militia, it is not only appropriate, but required

As war cannot lawfully be commenced on the part of the United States, without an act of Congress, such an act is, of course, a formal official notice to all the world, and equivalent to the most solemn declaration.
…….
When the case was brought up, on appeal, before the Supreme Court of the United States, the broad principle was assumed, that war gave to the sovereign full right to take the persons, and confiscate the property of the enemy, wherever found; and that the mitigations of this rigid rule, which the wise and humane policy of modern times had introduced into practice, might, more or less, affect the exercise of the right, but could not impair the right itself.

James Kent, Commentaries

-----

And the point is: those Upper-South states of Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee and Arkansas voted not only for secession, but also for the formally declared war against the United States. So they knew ahead of time they were going to war and chose to join it.

Did it occur to you they had no desire to have their own people become part of Lincoln's *75,000 troops*?

--------

While I’m enjoying the debate, I’d like to take this opportunity to propose posts containing a smaller number of points.

This suggestion is to achieve not only an easier-to-read thread, but also to shorten the time required for a comprehensive reply.

135 posted on 04/22/2012 1:44:09 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: MamaTexan

Oh goody, a cut~n~paste queen. At the end of the day all we have are opinions and mine are every bit as valid as yours.

Have a special kinda day ;-)


136 posted on 04/22/2012 1:54:41 PM PDT by rockrr (Everything is different now...)
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To: mek1959

Correct me if I am wrong, but it was the rebels who opened fire on Ft. Sumter.

So it wasn’t the Union that opened fire in 1860.


137 posted on 04/22/2012 6:41:16 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: ConservaTexan

No. It didn’t. What it did establish is that disunion can not happen unilaterally. All states are party to the Union. All, or at least most, would have to be party to disunion. That could occur certainly by constitutional amendment, and perhaps by legislation or by a successful case brought by a state with the supreme court as original jurisdiction.


138 posted on 04/22/2012 6:44:48 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: TJ1776

Rebellion is always treason, unless you win.

The southern states did not attempt to peacefully secede, rather they fired on US forces, initiating a war.

Further, they did not attempt to peacefully secede prior to the war by offering cash money to the remaining states in the Union. There was certainly a need for it, and paying one’s way out would have been peaceful, if that was what they wanted.


139 posted on 04/22/2012 6:51:05 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: rockrr
I've given up on this thread...it's been taken over by big-government conservatives who seem to believe in unlimited submission to a national government. I honestly wonder if there is any current issue that would cause any of the big-government types here to mobilize in their State to defy the national government? Numerous times on this thread, I've asked for a citation from Article II of the Constitution where the people, operating through their individual States DELEGATED a power they possessed to the Executive to "preserve the Union?" Silence as there is none.

I've asked numerous times about the Citation in Article II where the people, operating through their indicudual States DELEGATED a power they possessed to the Executive to suspend habeas corpus. Silence...as there is none.

I have asked numerous time where in Article II the the people, operating through their individual States DELEGATED a power they possessed to the Executive to issue an arrest warrant for the arrest of Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Taney ( I suspect I'll read something about Ward Hill Lamon not being credible)

And the list can go on and on but I tire of writing it, it's MANY lines long.

This is an issue of the Rule of Law and authority, not opinions about what Madison said about proper construction or intent. Lincoln had ZERO Article II Constitutional authority to do what he did, unless you can point to that section of Article II which no one can. So what do people do when they do not have an actual Constitution argument? Typically, they obfuscate with opinions, citations, in some cases of ONE Framer and present that as ironclad proof that the intent of the Founders, Framers and Ratifiers was "X". Yet, silence when it comes to a shred of Article II authority. Never a cite...just opinion and weaving together fanciful stories about the "real" meaning of the Declaration and the Constitution. Fanciful indeed.

So I will retire from this discussion, for it is not fruitful. I've merely found another group of big-government conservatives cut from Hamilton's clothe who are very comfortable waving the Constitution as a propaganda tool, but hold little fidelity to it.

Unless of course, anyone can point to that section of Article II where Lincoln was DELEGATED a power the the people of their individual States possessed to do the anti-constitutional things he did...crickets.

What you really seem to support, arbitrary power based on Machiavellian narrative about Madison, and the Framers, will someday come back to bite you. Good luck with that.

140 posted on 04/22/2012 7:16:22 PM PDT by mek1959
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To: mek1959
I understand your frustration, I've shared it myself many times.

----

To answer the question of your thread, the Declaration of Independence established the Natural Right the People have to rule themselves.

141 posted on 04/23/2012 7:21:23 PM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: mek1959

Lincoln was putting down an insurrection. The shooting was begun by the rebels. The War of the Rebellion ended when the rebellion ended.


142 posted on 04/23/2012 10:49:40 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: MamaTexan

Ft Sumter had never belonged to the state. It was built by the Federal Government, with stone from MA and NY, and funds from the Federal government.


143 posted on 04/23/2012 10:54:27 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: mek1959

I don’t hold with unlimited submission to federal government, nor do I hold with unlimited submission to the slave holding minority that made war to secure their horrific investments in slaves.

The southern states had, by ratification of the constitution or by application to join the Union, agreed to settle their disputes with the federal government or other states by legal means, with the supreme court as court of original jurisdiction. When they seized federal property, declared their pretended secession, and opened fire on federal soldiers doing their duty, they violated that agreement, and were in a state of insurrection.


144 posted on 04/23/2012 10:59:10 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: MamaTexan

Ah yes, the personal liberty laws, the horrors of which provided for jury trials, and punishment for perjury, and punishment for kidnapping.

I can see why the southern slave rapists were really offended by them. After all, once you start having trials, and not permitting perjury or kidnapping then you would be horribly oppressed.


145 posted on 04/23/2012 11:07:31 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: mek1959

The states delegated in Article III the authority to resolve disputes between states, or disputes with the federal government to the supreme court as original jurisdiction. When they pretended secession, seized federal property, and opened fire on US troops, they were in violation of that section, and hence in insurrection. By law, the president had authority to determine what part of states were in a state of insurrection.

And the rebels lost. Their appeal to the sword, in defiance of law, morals and custom failed.


146 posted on 04/23/2012 11:15:48 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: MamaTexan

you must admit that SC’s pretended secession occurred before Lincoln took office, and thus nothing Lincoln did could justify their pretense to secession.

Or you could just lie, but I know you wouldn’t do that.


147 posted on 04/23/2012 11:29:54 PM PDT by donmeaker (Blunderbuss: A short weapon, ... now superceded in civilized countries by more advanced weaponry.)
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To: donmeaker
Oh look.

Its the Brigadier General of the Blah, Blah Brigade.

148 posted on 04/24/2012 4:06:31 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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To: MamaTexan
I'll start with an item that looks pretty simple and straightforward...

MamaTexan, attempting to legally justify Confederate seizures of Federal properties in the months before the Confederacy's declaration of war on the United States:
"After the Declaration of Secession, the ownership of Ft Sumter did revert to the State, in accordance with the Law of Nations. [I'd also like to note this also covers the causes for a justified war]
quoting: "§ 212. To what the sovereign is bound. But, if the agreement has given nothing to the state which she did not before possess..."

First of all, if I can strip away the double negatives and restate it: none -- zero, zip, nada -- of the many Federal properties seized by secessionist forces, some even before formally declaring secession, none of those properties fell into this category of items to be retained by a state because "she did... before possess..." them.

All seized Federal properties were items which, by definition, Federal, not state, government had built, paid for and owned.
These in no way automatically became properties of Confederate states on their secession -- not even according to your alleged "Law of Nations".

That's one factor which makes the seizures unlawful -- even according to an alleged "Law of Nations".

But second and more important, since when did this particular "Law of Nations" become part and parcel of the United States Constitution?

Since when did a "Law of Nations" supersede our Founders' Original Intent?

Must stop here, out of time, will come back later...

149 posted on 04/24/2012 10:12:28 AM PDT by BroJoeK (a little historical perspective....)
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To: donmeaker
The states delegated in Article III the authority to resolve disputes between states.

Which is exactly right.

If the northern States disputed the definition of property in Article IV Section 2 Clause 3, the should have petitioned the federal government to have it changed.

While they had every right to alter that definition for themselves, they had NONE to do so for any other State, and property belonging to a person in another State should have been returned as such until the abolitionist States followed Constitutional procedures and had the Compact amended. That’s exactly what the Constitution says.

The South was under NO obligation to defend that which had previously been decided by ALL the States. That was supposed to be the federal government’s job.

150 posted on 04/24/2012 10:25:20 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a ~Person~ as created by the Law of Nature, not a 'person' as created by the laws of Man)
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