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Repeal That Infernal Tax Code
Townhall.com ^ | April 17, 2012 | Paul Greenberg

Posted on 04/17/2012 5:28:08 AM PDT by Kaslin

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To: Mr. K

didn’t our current tax code start as a flat tax?

teeman


51 posted on 04/17/2012 2:08:39 PM PDT by teeman8r (Armageddon won't be pretty, but it's not like it's the end of the world.)
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To: Kaslin

I’m sure that many of you have heard this one, but it was introduced to me today! I have a new favorite song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6zsKD22Lin4

“I hate taxes” by Robert Cray


52 posted on 04/17/2012 2:20:29 PM PDT by CSM (Keeper of the Dave Ramsey Ping list. FReepmail me if you want your beeber stuned.)
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To: Taxman

He will NEVER figure this out but I’ll bet over the years Louie has converted more people to the fairtax by himself than all of us have!


53 posted on 04/17/2012 2:28:32 PM PDT by Bigun ("The most fearsome words in the English language are I'm from the government and I'm here to help!")
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To: Bigun

LOL!

Thass why I don’t debate him — I just let him run off at the mouth and send folks our way!

Hope all is well with you and yours.


54 posted on 04/17/2012 3:05:24 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Kaslin

It’s like asking a drug addict to give his stash to somebody else.

The tax code is the structural rot of our republic. Lobbyists of all stripes pay big-time to ensure it’s jiggered in their benefit.

The politicians aren’t about to kill their golden goose.


55 posted on 04/17/2012 3:09:20 PM PDT by P.O.E. (Pray for America)
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To: teeman8r

Yes, it started that way and it always grows to a complex pile of indecipherable statutes via a midnight amendment process.

In other words a Flat Tax never stays flat for long because the Flat Tax needs the 16th Amendment to be legal and the 16th allows Congress to amend the tax code at will.

The USA has had 5 major tax reforms since 1913 and each reform has made the tax code ‘flatter’ and ‘simpler’. And it always grows back into a monster because Congress has the license (16th Amendment) to do what ever they want with taxes.

Since the last tax reform in 1986 under Ronald Reagan, there have been more than 20,000 amendments to the tax code and a quadrupling of the number of tax lobbyists in DC.

The revolving doors between Congress and the IRS, between IRS and tax lobbying firms, and between Congress and tax lobbying firms are used by persons that form the Praetorian Guard of the Washington establishment.

The battle over freedom comes down to about 50,000 of these contemporary Praetorian Guards plus their surrogates in the NY media against 144 million individual tax filers. If we get a critical mass of these 144 million to understand the FairTax and stand their ground against the naysayers, then we win hands down.

But the DC Praetorians will use their allies and surrogates in the NY media complex to paint us as radicals and bigots of the Tea Party variety. They will smear us so often that anyone watching who is not educated to the FairTax and who is not aware of what the NY media does to brainwash them, these watchers will have a prejudice against us.

But it only takes on average about 3000 FairTax activists in each Congressional district to turn the Congress member to the FairTax. So we need to keep adding to our ranks.

The good news is that once a person gets it, gets the FairTax, it does not leave them and they can’t think of anything else. But they can get frustrated with the pace of progress. I always tell them the Income Tax took 52 years to become legal and the FairTax has only been out there a little more than 10 years, and it won’t take near as long to get the FairTax passed.


56 posted on 04/17/2012 3:10:45 PM PDT by Hostage (Be Breitbart!)
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To: Hostage

Well said!

Taxman Bravo Zulu!


57 posted on 04/17/2012 3:12:04 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: ctdonath2

> “You think that will remain uniform for any meaningful length of time? “

Do I think the FairTax will remain uniform? It must if it is to be constitutional. Because in the legislation for the FairTax (H.R.25), the proposed law has a provision that sunsets the FairTax if the 16th Amendment is not repealed within a certain time frame.

Here’s the essential idea to understand, the Constitution with the 16th Amendment repealed requires taxes to be uniform. So the answer is yes the FairTax will remain uniform or else it goes away. How does this happen you say?

To be clear the FairTax:
1. Abolishes the Income Tax code, scraps it altogether.
2. Requires a stake to be driven through the heart of the Income Tax by requiring the 16th Amendment to be repealed within a certain time frame.

This number 2 above guarantees the Income Tax never comes back without apportionment, and apportionment puts pressure to generate all manner of non-uniformities when used to collect income taxes, so it ain’t gonna ever happen because without the 16th, all taxes must be uniform or else they will be stricken from the code.

What 1 and 2 above mean is that Americans will be enjoying life under the FairTax and then be told that the FairTax will go away and the Income Tax will come back if the 16th Amendment is not repealed. So the pressure will be on to perform 2 above.

> “How then is it suddenly “sensible” for the feds to give a family of 4 $38,180 no strings attached? especially when anyone can work a high-paying job, and by operating exclusively in used goods and private sales pay no taxes regardless of income? How is this any different from the well-despised “redistributing the wealth”? “

The FairTax does not give a family of 4 (you are mistaken twice here, see below) the amount of $38,180. This amount is a consumption allowance based on purchasing essentials for living and is in fact the level at which FairTax federal taxation begins for this family structure.

First off your $38,180 applies to a family of six, a couple and 4 children:

http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/PrebateExplained2012.pdf

The rebate is $8,781 ($2,569 for each adult and $911 for each child).

Secondly, buying used goods is a good idea for frugal families and people when it makes sense. But we are not going to buy used light bulbs, or used detergent, or used oil etc. Are you going to buy a used car for the rest of your life? Who will be buying the new cars?

We will buy many many new things just as do now and the price is going to be about the same! Say what? Yes, the price is going to be about the same. Because all the taxes applied up and down supply and production chains get pushed out down to the end of the chain to the consumer of the product or service and that’s where the FairTax NRST is applied.

Thirdly, the FairTax Rebate is not an entitlement, it is a reimbursement of National Retail Sales Tax (NRST) paid based on a consumption allowance for living essentials. If this rebate is increased it must be the same increase for every person, the same for grandma on Social Security as for billionaire Warren Buffett. It must be uniform for all because the repeal of the 16th will not allow for different rates and rebates.

You see all we are doing with the FairTax is just making the whole process simpler and more transparent. And the political class don’t like transparency anymore than cock roaches welcome light.

With the FairTax, we are pushing all the supply chain taxes down to the end of the line and we are paying just about the same taxes that we pay today but don’t see. For example, your employer had to pay a matching amount of your social security and also had to pay federal corporate tax. These taxes form a part of the cost of doing business so prices are inflated by federal taxes at each step for each business in the supply chain. These are called the hidden embedded taxes and they form on average about 23% inclusive of the price of a product or service before reaching the consumer.

To give a simple example, I go to Home Depot to buy a 2 X 4 piece of wood. It sits on the shelf at $2. I go to the cash register and pay $2 for it and no state sales tax if I am in Oregon.

Under the Fair Tax I go to Home Depot to buy a 2 X 4 and it sits on the shelf at $1.54. I go to the cash register to purchase it and there is added $0.46 FairTax NRST to bring the total to $2.

Lastly, private sales. One of the great things about the FairTax from an enforcement point of view is that it is easy to sting people on either side of a sale. Because with the FairTax it takes two people to cheat whereas with the Income Tax it takes only one.

The bottomline is that the FairTax wins the debate on every point but it is opposed by the political class because it take away their power to tinker with code and social engineer things for us. It takes their power away to cause us trouble.


58 posted on 04/17/2012 4:39:25 PM PDT by Hostage (Be Breitbart!)
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To: Taxman

what i can’t understand is how the ‘fair tax’ idiots could not see that having to EXPLAIN tax-inclusive it not ridiculously effing STUPID when you could more easily use the tax-exclusive rate LIKE EVERY OTHER SALES TAX

You cannot calculate ‘tax inclusive’ rate in your head

It also is a decpetively LOWER rate

In short - it is a lie for liars and liberals who LOVE the ‘fair tax’ because it is hidden

I want taxes to be as visible as possible and in your face as possible, to maximize people’s dislike of them

Got it?


59 posted on 04/17/2012 4:56:25 PM PDT by Mr. K (If Romney wins the primary, I am writing-in PALIN)
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To: Kaslin

People should be taxed on their success.


60 posted on 04/17/2012 6:26:42 PM PDT by wastedyears (There can be only one.)
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To: wastedyears; Kaslin; All

I MEANT SHOULD NOT BE TAXES ON THEIR SUCCESS. Stupid mistake and I know I’ll get flamed for it.


61 posted on 04/17/2012 7:20:58 PM PDT by wastedyears (There can be only one.)
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To: Mr. K; Bigun

This straw man “dustup” between “tax inclusive” and “tax exclusive” arose many years ago when the legislation was first introduced. It has been put to rest, except among those who refuse to understand economic language and concepts.

Here is what the FairTax web site FAQ has to say about it at
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer?pagename=FAQs :

“I know the FairTax rate is 23 percent when compared to current income taxes. What will the rate of the sales tax be at the retail counter?

“30 percent. This issue is often confusing, so we explain more here.

“When income tax rates are quoted, economists call that a tax-inclusive quote: “I paid 23 percent last year.” For every $100 earned, $23 went to Uncle Sam. Or, “I had to make $130 to have $100 to spend.” That’s a 23-percent tax-inclusive rate.

“We choose to compare the FairTax to income taxes, quoting the rate the same way, because the FairTax replaces such taxes. That rate is 23 percent.

“Sales taxes, on the other hand, are generally quoted tax exclusive: “I bought a $77 shirt and had to pay that same $23 in sales tax.” This is a 30-percent sales tax. Or, “I spent a dollar, 77¢ for the product and 23¢ in tax.” This rate, when programmed into a point-of-purchase terminal, is 30 percent.

“Note that no matter which way it is quoted, the amount of tax is the same. Under an income tax rate of 23 percent, you have to earn $130 to spend $100.

“Spend that same $100 under a sales tax, you pay that same tax of $30, and the rate is quoted as 30 percent.

“Perhaps the biggest difference between the two is that under the income tax, controlling the amount of tax you pay is a complex nightmare. Under the FairTax, you may simply choose not to spend, or to spend less.”

By the way, the only FairTax idiots I know are those who reflexively reject the FairTax, without studying it. Or ask stupid questions or make dumb statements or make asinine accusations without studying it.

The issue is FReedom, Mr. K, FREEDOM!

We will never be a truly FRee people so long as we have an income tax and an IRS!


62 posted on 04/17/2012 9:57:58 PM PDT by Taxman (So that the beautiful pressure does not diminish!)
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To: Hostage
You are wrong, it is uniform.
Thanks for the link, it exposes your lie.

Family of 4: One adult (single mom?) + 3 children - $5,302 annual

Family of 4: a couple (of what?)+ 2 children - $6960.00 annual

Since 1 adult plus 3 children or a couple plus 2 children is too much math for you I wouldn't expect you to be able to figure that that's a $1658.00 annual penalty for a single mom with 3 kids.

63 posted on 04/17/2012 10:15:52 PM PDT by lewislynn ( What does the global warming movement and the Fairtax movement have in commom? Misinformation)
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To: foxfield
It taxes the purchaser! You need a basic refresher on the Fair Tax.
Nope, sounds like you need an education on the Fairtax, not a refresher.

The law states the rate is 23% of the gross payments received.

Do purchasers receive payments?

There's nothing anywhere in the law about what the tax rate is for the consumer/purchaser...only the business.

64 posted on 04/17/2012 10:26:13 PM PDT by lewislynn ( What does the global warming movement and the Fairtax movement have in commom? Misinformation)
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To: lewislynn

Good grief, we really are retarded aren’t we?

The uniformity is by INDIVIDUAL and not by FAMILY!


65 posted on 04/17/2012 11:33:56 PM PDT by Hostage (Be Breitbart!)
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To: Kaslin

“Even if folks have an accountant, and by now an estimated 80 percent of us use a tax preparer, or at least some software, to figure out how much we owe, it’s still a wearing process.”

The accountants use software to tackle the damn tax code too.

When your tax return is close to 9 lbs and you have to ship it in a box it is time for REFORM!


66 posted on 04/17/2012 11:41:51 PM PDT by kcvl
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To: P.O.E.

“It’s like asking a drug addict to give his stash to somebody else.

The tax code is the structural rot of our republic. Lobbyists of all stripes pay big-time to ensure it’s jiggered in their benefit.

The politicians aren’t about to kill their golden goose.”
____________________________________________________________

You are exactly right on all counts UNTIL WE the people take control of the politicians we will continue to suffer!

We will never again be a truly FREE people for so long as we continue to abide the Marxist inspired income tax and the IRS!


67 posted on 04/18/2012 3:27:55 AM PDT by Bigun ("The most fearsome words in the English language are I'm from the government and I'm here to help!")
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To: lewislynn; foxfield
"The law states the rate is 23% of the gross payments received."

It also says that if you make RETAIL sales of NEW goods or services you are REQUIRED to collect the tax from the purchaser on every sale but I guess you ignored that part didn't you Louie!

The business is just a conduit and that is true whether or not the fairtax is in place!

For the benefit of someone else who may be reading this (not you Louie because I KNOW already that you are to stupid to ever understand it), A business has but ONE source of revenue and that is it's sales receipts. That being the case, EVERYTHING the business pays must, of necessity, come from that source! If you tax a business the tax can accrue to any one, or any possible combination of, only three places.

1. The tax is added into the final sales price of the good or service produced and passed on to the consumer hidden in price.

2. The tax reduces the wages and fringe benefits of the worker involved in the production process.

3. The tax reduces the R(eturn) O(n) I(nvestment) to the stockholders of the business.

There is literally no place else for them to accrue and in all cases they fall on individuals and NOT the business!

68 posted on 04/18/2012 3:48:57 AM PDT by Bigun ("The most fearsome words in the English language are I'm from the government and I'm here to help!")
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To: Kaslin
If you've read the books on FairTax, the disadvantages of the current income tax system (hundreds of billions per year in compliance costs, discouraging savings and capital investment in the USA, and the political corruption from 30,000 tax lobbyists fighting for every scrap of a tax break) is why we need to put an end to the current tax code as soon as possible.

I'd go with the Steve Forbes no-loophole 17% flat-rate plan NOW and start a 2-3 year transition that at the end of the transition, we repeal the 16th Amendment and replace the income tax with FairTax.

69 posted on 04/18/2012 6:12:52 AM PDT by RayChuang88 (FairTax: America's economic cure)
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To: Kaslin

bump and bookmark


70 posted on 04/20/2012 6:23:17 AM PDT by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: Kaslin

bump and bookmark


71 posted on 04/20/2012 6:23:19 AM PDT by FBD (My carbon footprint is bigger than yours)
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To: Kaslin

The tax code is a weapon against the citizens.


72 posted on 04/20/2012 6:25:18 AM PDT by Chickensoup (In the 20th century 200 million people were killed by their own governments.)
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To: Hostage
Good grief, we really are retarded aren’t we?

The uniformity is by INDIVIDUAL and not by FAMILY!

Were you saying something about retarded liar?

It's a "FAMILY CONSUMPTION ALLOWANCE" and each "FAMILY" has 4 "INDIVIDUALS" dimwit.

73 posted on 04/20/2012 11:41:40 AM PDT by lewislynn ( What does the global warming movement and the Fairtax movement have in commom? Misinformation)
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To: lewislynn

The UNIFORM monthly rebate is applied to each adult and to each child as follows:

Adult 214
Child 76

http://www.fairtax.org/PDF/PrebateExplained2012.pdf

The above amounts are added for each adult and each child in the family.

The Rebate amounts are UNIFORMLY APPLIED to individuals and if individuals form a household then the uniform rebates are simply added.


74 posted on 04/20/2012 8:17:01 PM PDT by Hostage (Be Breitbart!)
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