Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

No Pilot, No Problem: The future of military aviation is unmanned. The sooner it comes, the better.
Reason ^ | April 12, 2012 | Tim Cavanaugh

Posted on 04/18/2012 11:35:33 PM PDT by neverdem

With no fanfare and little media notice, an extremely famous American will turn 60 years old this Sunday.

It was on Tax Day in 1952 that the Boeing B-52 Stratofortress, hulking symbol of the Cold War, accident-prone target of the unkind acronym "B.U.F.F.," the bomber several generations believed would usher in the death of humanity, made its first flight.

Some interesting points about the B-52:

• It was considered old-fashioned even before its operational life began. In the late 1940s the Air Force almost shut down the plane’s development out of concerns that it would be obsolete by the time it entered service.

• It comes honestly by its status as a cultural icon. That first flight was made by storied test pilot Alvin M. "Tex" Johnston, who is widely believed to have been the model for Major T.J. "King" Kong, the colorful B-52 pilot played by Slim Pickens in the Stanley Kubrick movie Dr. Strangelove. Over the years the B-52 has lent its name to a cocktail, several motion pictures, countless nightclubs around the world, and a great dance band whose flamboyantly gay stylings now seem as quaint and dated as the bomber itself.

• Though it has a reputation as a nuclear-age terror weapon, it has never delivered nuclear ordnance. To this day, the only plane that has dropped atomic bombs in anger is the B-52’s propeller-driven predecessor B-29 Superfortress.

• Despite all the above, the B-52 is expected to remain in service until 2045. It performed shooting-war service this century over Afghanistan and Iraq. It will almost certainly outlast flashier successors like the Rockwell B-1 and the Northrop Grumman B-2. Given the vagaries of budget and the challenges of fully retiring any legacy system, it’s not impossible that the unloved B.U.F.F. could end up spending a full...

(Excerpt) Read more at reason.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: militaryaviation
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-55 next last
There's more to military aviation than just fighters and bombers.
1 posted on 04/18/2012 11:35:42 PM PDT by neverdem
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: neverdem

Mixed feelings....bump


2 posted on 04/18/2012 11:54:23 PM PDT by BIGLOOK
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: BIGLOOK

Star Trek: A Taste of Armageddon
...war is essentially a war game, where each planet attacks the other in a computer simulation with the tabulated victims voluntarily surrendering themselves for execution after the fact.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKmUd0zHW4w


3 posted on 04/18/2012 11:57:10 PM PDT by donna (The Feminist ideal comes to fruition in the Republican Party. Betty Friedan laughs.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: neverdem
Next Stop...

Driverless cars.

Love that idea.

Get in the passenger side each morning, and my car drives me to work.

Nap, read, work on the computer.

Just like the bus - but no wino's, no racial hatred, and no crazy people.

4 posted on 04/18/2012 11:59:56 PM PDT by zeestephen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: zeestephen
Driverless cars.

Love that idea.


I hate it. No automated car will ever exceed the ridiculously low US speed limits (which the cars will scan from programmable roadside displays), and as a result the actual flow of traffic will be less than the speed limit as cars slow to allow other cars to switch lanes and merge. On "spare the air" days, the speed limit can be dropped even further or simply reduced to zero to force people to use the mass transit boondoggles no one ever wants to use.

Driverless cars will find a lot of favor with statists who hate the personal mobility and freedom from control that cars provide. Such folks will rejoice at the potential massive increase in control that automated vehicles subject to external programming will provide.
5 posted on 04/19/2012 12:24:31 AM PDT by AnotherUnixGeek
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: donna
war is essentially a war game, where each planet attacks the other in a computer simulation with the tabulated victims voluntarily surrendering themselves for execution after the fact.

The assumption there seems to be that the goal in war is to kill people. The usual main priority is to take and hold territory, something that automated devices will eventually be able to do better than human personnel and without the casualties.
6 posted on 04/19/2012 12:31:25 AM PDT by AnotherUnixGeek
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: neverdem
"....hulking symbol of the Cold War, accident-prone target of the unkind acronym "B.U.F.F...."

TRANSLATION:

"...perhaps the most tangible representation of the U. S. Military establishment's role in your own survival, symbol of trans-generational excellence in engineering, a model of simple and deadly excellence which serves still and will serve as an example to generations of engineers who seek the elegant, the perfect, the lofty, and the efficient."

Sorry. Just had to translate that.
7 posted on 04/19/2012 12:33:36 AM PDT by golux
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: neverdem

I never associated the band The B52s with fags. Queen, yes.


8 posted on 04/19/2012 12:37:09 AM PDT by Jeff Chandler (This place is nuts.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AnotherUnixGeek

Close, but the only way war ever ends is by breaking the will of the enemy. That’s how we lost Vietnam despite massive military success: the American will faltered, largely due to Walter Cronkite and the LSM. (Yes, they have been that treasonous that long.)

Automated war machines can give us an even bigger edge, but without the will, we’re lost...


9 posted on 04/19/2012 12:39:36 AM PDT by piytar (The predator-class is furious that their prey are shooting back.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: AnotherUnixGeek
Driverless cars will find a lot of favor with statists who hate the personal mobility and freedom from control that cars provide PEOPLE.

There. You don't mind my shortening it a little bit for clarity, do you?

10 posted on 04/19/2012 1:00:59 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: golux
And one of the main reasons a red flag never broke above the city-state of Singapore.

We slaughtered a million Communist cadre on the battlefields of Vietnam, who never saw another country in consequence.

11 posted on 04/19/2012 1:03:15 AM PDT by lentulusgracchus
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 7 | View Replies]

To: neverdem

Yeah, yeah. People are always criticizing the B-52, saying it’s outdated, I’ve got a better idea, my plane is faster and smarter than your plane.

But somehow or other, the B-52 has done the job, while most of the intended replacements proved to be little more than money-gobblers.


12 posted on 04/19/2012 12:25:11 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: neverdem

so I guess all of our future airline pilots are going to come out of shady sounding tech schools which advertise on UHF television during the day...


13 posted on 04/19/2012 12:25:37 PM PDT by Buckeye McFrog
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AnotherUnixGeek; All
Driver less cars are a technology that offers a great deal of freedom. Like any technology, it can be used for or against freedom.

Most computer forecasters predicted it would be used for 1984 type purposes. Some of it has, but the ability to unshackle information flow from the MSM has been one of the greatest promoters of individual freedom of our time.

Autonomous cars - no drivers license - tremendous increase in productivity - enormous opportunities.

14 posted on 04/19/2012 12:30:57 PM PDT by marktwain
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: neverdem

Don’t forget our drone that was brought down intact over Iran. Imagine some hostile country capturing a drone bomber.


15 posted on 04/19/2012 12:35:33 PM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: marktwain
enormous opportunities.

Especially Lawyers.

16 posted on 04/19/2012 12:40:06 PM PDT by itsahoot (I will not vote for Romney period, and by election day you won't like him either.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: neverdem

I give up....
Can someone tell me the meaning of B.U.F.F.?


17 posted on 04/19/2012 12:44:01 PM PDT by markoman (The man with the rubber glove was....surprisingly gentle.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AnotherUnixGeek

I used to have similar thoughts about automated cars. Then I spent 24 hours in 15 days driving to and from Alamogordo NM because of a dieing father-in-law. All of a sudden I saw automated cars very differently. There’s a lot of potential to gain freedom with them, certainly it would ease transportation. I’d be fine losing the 10MPH or so I usually exceed the speed limit by to not have to put up with the overall boredom, part of the speeding is to try to get the trip done before the brain flatlines. Is there potential for abuse by the government? Of course, just like with everything else in the world. Does that mean it’s necessarily a bad idea? No.


18 posted on 04/19/2012 12:46:10 PM PDT by discostu (I did it 35 minutes ago)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: markoman
Big Ugly Fat XXXXXX Fellow

Or some similar word ...

19 posted on 04/19/2012 12:49:19 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

Comment #20 Removed by Moderator

To: marktwain
Autonomous cars - no drivers license - tremendous increase in productivity

Barf.

I drive ~ 1hr each way for work.

If I'm driving, I'm free to think about whatever ... which may or may not be work related.

Last thing I want is an automated car that becomes an extension of my office.

Besides that ... driving is fun.

21 posted on 04/19/2012 12:53:11 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: AnotherUnixGeek

Until the other side hacks the drones.

There is no computer system that is uncrackable. We have had some rather interesting things happen with US drones that suggest interference from the other side.


22 posted on 04/19/2012 1:09:49 PM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: neverdem

Is this like the idea that fighters didn’t need a gun because missiles were the wave of the future.


23 posted on 04/19/2012 1:17:16 PM PDT by AFreeBird
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

“I drive ~ 1hr each way for work.”

Glad I don’t have your gas bill.

“If I’m driving, I’m free to think about whatever ... which may or may not be work related.”

Do us all a favor and let us know when you’re on the road. I don’t know about most folks but I try to avoid drivers interested in situational awareness.


24 posted on 04/19/2012 12:57:23 PM PDT by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: KantianBurke
Glad I don’t have your gas bill.

Freedom is a wonderful thing.

I try to avoid drivers interested in situational awareness.

That's a very strange thing for you to do ... but again, freedom is a wonderful thing.

Since I'm very aware of my situation, whether driving or doing anything else ... I'm sure you'll want to stay very far away from me.

And that's OK.

25 posted on 04/19/2012 1:15:55 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: AnotherUnixGeek
Yes, for those who love to drive, the experience will be diminished.

You may have to join a race track club and buy a special vehicle.

But average speed limits will increase dramatically.

The risk of a crash will fall close to zero.

Looky-Loo congestion will fall close to zero.

The space between cars on an expressway will be reduced by at least 50%, probably more, which means a three lane road becomes a virtual six lane road.

The cost of car insurance will drop dramatically.

I'll bet we'll have robotic commercial trucks on the Interstate Highway system by 2025.

26 posted on 04/19/2012 1:17:58 PM PDT by zeestephen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: wardaddy; Joe Brower; Cannoneer No. 4; Criminal Number 18F; Dan from Michigan; Eaker; Jeff Head; ...
Defund the Fracking Task Force. It's old technology!

BrightSource and the Fracking Task Force

Fracking Vindicated

Undecided Lean to Insurgent

Data Indicate Election Will Be Referendum

Some noteworthy articles about politics, foreign or military affairs, IMHO, FReepmail me if you want on or off my list.

27 posted on 04/19/2012 1:21:08 PM PDT by neverdem (Xin loi minh oi)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

“Freedom is a wonderful thing.”

If you’ve got the money to burn for a two hour commute more power to you. Again I’m glad I don’t have to shell out mucho dollars just to get to work and can spend more time with my family instead of being on the road.

“I try to avoid drivers interested in situational awareness.”

Oops. Typo. Meant UNinterested in situational awareness.”

“Since I’m very aware of my situation”

Says you. What difference is there between your day dreaming and the lady yakking on the phone while putting on lipstick gunning down the highway over 70? You feel safe around that sort of inconsiderate hussy?


28 posted on 04/19/2012 1:23:01 PM PDT by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: KantianBurke
. Again I’m glad

That's nice. Good for you. I hope you have a wonderful life.

What difference is there between your day dreaming

How's about you quit your failed attempts to read my mind, quit falsely accusing me, and get your head out of your ass?

29 posted on 04/19/2012 1:31:44 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 28 | View Replies]

To: superfries
3 ... 2 ... 1 ...
30 posted on 04/19/2012 1:35:51 PM PDT by tomkat (... shall NOT be abridged)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

“That’s nice. Good for you. I hope you have a wonderful life.”

I do actually. More money in my pocket and more time with my family is a big part of that. Enjoy your commuting & the accompanying $4.10 a gallon gas bill.

“How’s about you quit your failed attempts to read my mind, quit falsely accusing me, and get your head out of your ass?”

Bit touchy aren’t we? You were the one who gladly advertised how much you enjoy daydreaming while driving. Do us all a favor & keep your eyes and head focused on the road.


31 posted on 04/19/2012 1:39:15 PM PDT by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: KantianBurke

GFY.


32 posted on 04/19/2012 1:44:08 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

per Jim’s house rules:

“Please: NO profanity, NO personal attacks, NO racism or violence in posts.”


33 posted on 04/19/2012 1:47:20 PM PDT by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 32 | View Replies]

To: KantianBurke
Don't go away mad, little boy.

Just go away.

34 posted on 04/19/2012 1:49:24 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: zeestephen
I'll bet we'll have robotic commercial trucks on the Interstate Highway system by 2025.

I bet we see robotic freight trains long before we see robotic commercial trucks.

35 posted on 04/19/2012 1:52:57 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

LOL, you’re the one mouthing off like a 12 year. Let me guess - cranky from a long day’s drive?


36 posted on 04/19/2012 2:01:03 PM PDT by KantianBurke (Where was the Tea Party when Dubya was spending like a drunken sailor?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: KantianBurke
You may go back you your perfect little life, in your perfect little city, with your perfect little job, your perfect little family, all of which is perfect for your perfect little brain.

I'm sure you perfectly enjoy it in your perfect little way.

Me?

I have better things to do with my life than waste it on perfect little people.

'Bye.

37 posted on 04/19/2012 2:05:14 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 36 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard
Hey, we already have robotic rail yards.

Two guys, a bunch of computers, a watchtower, and hundreds of freight cars, coupling, uncoupling, and moving around by themselves.

I did some work with Amazon Fresh a few months back.

They just bought a company, Kiva maybe?

Their little robots pick food orders right off warehouse shelves and deliver them to the correct trucks.

38 posted on 04/19/2012 2:09:40 PM PDT by zeestephen
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: KantianBurke; ArrogantBustard

Some people can walk and chew gum at the same time. They generally can also drive and think about life at the same time.

Others find multi-tasking like that too difficult. They long for the day of drone chairs, carrying them down the sidewalk while they concentrate on chewing gum...

BTW - nearly 40 years of driving, thinking about other things, and my only accident was when I was at a stoplight, and a van behind me decided red lights were optional.


39 posted on 04/19/2012 2:16:56 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (A conservative can't please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 33 | View Replies]

To: zeestephen
Hey, we already have robotic rail yards.

Yes, and we have a partly remote controlled, partly robotic rail system outside the yards. But there are still engineers and conductors on board.

40 posted on 04/19/2012 2:16:56 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 38 | View Replies]

To: zeestephen

“I’ll bet we’ll have robotic commercial trucks on the Interstate Highway system by 2025. “

I wish there was some way I could take you up on your bet.

OTOH, I kind of like the mental image of I-10 in LA, with all the liberals in their automated cars doing 100 mph, when a rat pees on the central computer’s power switch...


41 posted on 04/19/2012 2:20:31 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (A conservative can't please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 26 | View Replies]

To: Mr Rogers; zeestephen
all the liberals in their automated cars doing 100 mph, when a rat pees on the central computer’s power switch...

What central computer?

Seriously ... the current paradigm is a bunch of independently controlled vehicles each with a very powerful guidance computer, recieving data from very high resolution 3D imaging system and a remarkably sophisticated attitude and environmental monitoring system, operating a thoroughly integrated set of route planning, collision avoidance, and environmental adjustment algorighms.

Why replace all that distributed computing, that allows vehicles to seamlessly enter and exit the system, with a mere central computer that has to keep track of it all remotely?

42 posted on 04/19/2012 2:28:10 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 41 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

“Seriously ... the current paradigm is a bunch of independently controlled vehicles each with a very powerful guidance computer, recieving data from very high resolution 3D imaging system and a remarkably sophisticated attitude and environmental monitoring system, operating a thoroughly integrated set of route planning, collision avoidance, and environmental adjustment algorighms.”

Cheaper to just put a human behind the wheel.

Drones have very limited capability in the military. They have none on the highways, and I’d cheerfully bet that won’t change in 12 years...


43 posted on 04/19/2012 2:34:53 PM PDT by Mr Rogers (A conservative can't please a liberal unless he jumps in front of a bus or off of a cliff)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: Mr Rogers
Cheaper to just put a human behind the wheel.

That's what I just described. ;'}

OTOH, what's the cost to raise a human from zygote to fully trained driver?

44 posted on 04/19/2012 2:38:21 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

Actually it’s not even a powerful computer or high resolution anything. Most of it is running off of GPS for the navigation, and proximity sensors like the self parking cars for the near stuff. They’ve realized an important factor of driving that most people don’t actually think about but it is how people really work: you don’t need specifics, you just need to know where the blobs you don’t want to hit are. A 3D image system will tell you all kinds of data about the thing you’re trying not to hit, but the important data is size direction and distance, which is easy to do with relatively unsophisticated stuff. Just like when you drive, while if you look at something long enough you get all kinds of specific data, but most of the time it’s just a thing about yea big, moving to where you want to be too fast for you to turn now. It was the big leap in realizing how little you actually need to know about your surroundings that allowed self parking cars, the first big step to automated driving.


45 posted on 04/19/2012 2:49:47 PM PDT by discostu (I did it 35 minutes ago)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: discostu
Sorry ...

I was describing the human driver. Or trying to.

In fact, trying to describe and quantify exactly what we do and how we do it when we drive is not easy.

It was the big leap in realizing how little you actually need to know about your surroundings that allowed self parking cars,

Granted ... it may be that in terms of computational power and sensing capability we (humans) are way overqualified for mere driving.

46 posted on 04/19/2012 2:54:19 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 45 | View Replies]

To: ArrogantBustard

Ah. Yeah we kind of are overqualified, which is why we have radios. It’s also why we tend to stop paying attention behind the wheel, we’re bored, then we get in an accident.


47 posted on 04/19/2012 2:58:20 PM PDT by discostu (I did it 35 minutes ago)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: AnotherUnixGeek
The assumption there seems to be that the goal in war is to kill people. The usual main priority is to take and hold territory,

The priority these days has changed, as has the goal. Iraq eventually became a war about "liberating" Iraqis, at least if you ask Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Bush, all of whom have bragged about liberating Iraq. Libya was never about anything but booting out Khadaffi.

something that automated devices will eventually be able to do better than human personnel and without the casualties.

Which will most likely lead us to engaging in a lot more wars. When you reduce the risk, you began to easily overlook reasons why we shouldn't go to war. You'll find those who make the machines lobbying hard for us to go to war in places we shouldn't. The fact that we don't even bother going through a formal process of declaring war anymore feeds right into that.
48 posted on 04/19/2012 3:16:21 PM PDT by af_vet_rr
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: AdmSmith; AnonymousConservative; Berosus; bigheadfred; Bockscar; ColdOne; Convert from ECUSA; ...

IMHO the UAV is the future of air-to-ground combat. But until railgun AAA exists, capable of knocking everything out of the sky across an entire theater, fighters will dogfight with fighters. Thanks neverdem.


49 posted on 04/19/2012 3:51:49 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (FReepathon 2Q time -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: neverdem

While the B-52 was in development, I think in 8th grade I had to do a report to my class from the little article of its development from the Weekly Reader. Hazy memory.


50 posted on 04/19/2012 5:33:49 PM PDT by imardmd1 (B. S., M. S., Ph. D.; post-doc in solid-state phys/chem; 20 yrs research in semiconductors --)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-55 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson