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Doubting Darwin: panic in the suites of evolution
WORLD ^ | 5/5/12 | MARVIN OLASKY

Posted on 04/25/2012 6:54:15 PM PDT by Caleb1411

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1 posted on 04/25/2012 6:54:22 PM PDT by Caleb1411
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To: Caleb1411
but more than 800 Ph.D.-bearing scientists have signed a statement expressing skepticism about contemporary evolutionary theory's claims that random mutation and natural selection account for the complexity of life.

They're obviously all a bunch of hacks who got their "doctorates" from a correspondence school in Skokie, Illinois.

/s

2 posted on 04/25/2012 7:08:51 PM PDT by Yashcheritsiy (Anybody but Obama and Romney)
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To: Caleb1411
I've studied many areas of science including evolution and I can only shake my head at those die-hards who insist phyletic (gradual) evolution is a fact.

As I see it, there is zero evidence of phyletic evolution. If we really evolved from common ancestors, to me the evidence says punctuated equilbria or special creation are the only possible theories.

3 posted on 04/25/2012 7:09:02 PM PDT by scripter ("You don't have a soul. You are a soul. You have a body." - C.S. Lewis)
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To: Caleb1411

Make lefties go even more batty than they already are by pointing out the contradictions involved in insisting upon Darwinian explanations for everything EXCEPT social and economic issues. How do they reconcile “survival of the fittest” with “No keeping score! EVERYONE’S a WINNER!”;)


4 posted on 04/25/2012 7:13:31 PM PDT by Frank_2001
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To: Yashcheritsiy
"We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged."

I wouldn't exactly call that a ringing condemnation of evolution theory. Of course you should examine the evidence carefully. What scientist wouldn't agree with that?

5 posted on 04/25/2012 7:15:44 PM PDT by DManA
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To: Caleb1411

If you are anyone has an alternative Scientific Theory (not a guess and not depending on the supernatural) that explains the billions of data points that currently support TToE, all of science is waiting.

No one has produced one to date.

Give us a modern horse found in the 12 million year strata and you have our attention.

Of course, you know a Scientific Theory is NOT a “grown up guess” right? And you know the Theory of Gravity is less understood nor documented than TToE, right?

I suggest we start with “alternative theories (guesses)” with:

The universes are made by Lord Brahma the Creator, maintained by Lord Vishnu the Preserver and destroyed by Lord Shiva. Since the universes must be destroyed before they can be recreated, Lord Shiva is called the Destroyer and Re-creator. These three gods are all forms of Supreme One and part of the Supreme One. The Supreme One is behind and beyond all.

Obviously science no longer measures the physical world, so it really measures nothing.


6 posted on 04/25/2012 7:17:01 PM PDT by freedumb2003 ('RETRO' Abortions = performed on 84th trimester individuals who think killing babies is a "right.")
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Get a Grip, and NTSA!

7 posted on 04/25/2012 7:19:41 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (FReepathon 2Q time -- https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: Frank_2001

>>Make lefties go even more batty than they already are by pointing out the contradictions involved in insisting upon Darwinian explanations for everything EXCEPT social and economic issues.<<

You are not familiar with the term “stochastic” are you?

Applying physics to non-physical events is a non sequituer on the highest order. Analogies do not create fact from that which is being analoged...


8 posted on 04/25/2012 7:20:30 PM PDT by freedumb2003 ('RETRO' Abortions = performed on 84th trimester individuals who think killing babies is a "right.")
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To: freedumb2003

“the Theory of Gravity is less understood nor documented than TToE”

There’s 1 huge problem with your comparison.

Gravity is intrinsically evident to EVERYONE, EVERY DAY, even the biggest ninkumpoop. It is intuitive - what comes up, must come down. There is no theorizing about that, not on this earth.

Biology generally and evolution specifically is alot of guesswork.


9 posted on 04/25/2012 7:25:49 PM PDT by the OlLine Rebel (Common sense is an uncommon virtue./Technological progress cannot be legislated.)
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To: Caleb1411

Are the CrEvo wars still going on here on FR? I’ve pursued a rather different path, but I couldn’t resist a shout-out for old time’s sake. Life was simpler back then.


10 posted on 04/25/2012 7:26:02 PM PDT by DaveLoneRanger (Decriminalize concealed carry on campus! Facebook.com/ConcealedCampus)
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To: DManA

***”We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.”

I wouldn’t exactly call that a ringing condemnation of evolution theory. Of course you should examine the evidence carefully. What scientist wouldn’t agree with that?***

You’re kidding, right?

Scientists (see Global Warming/Climate Change) get locked into a worldview and browbeat those who disagree into silence. They use circular reasoning to make evidence fit their theory, they don’t present any evidence that sheds a negative light on their theory and they dismiss any “naysayers” as quacks.

I might suggest you check out the documentary “Expelled”.


11 posted on 04/25/2012 7:26:16 PM PDT by schaef21
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To: Caleb1411
Just a couple of thoughts:

There is certainly room to doubt the theory of evolution as propounded by Darwin and still be well within the bounds of the scientific method. However, there is no room to suggest that the universe is less than ten thousand years old and still be within any reasonable definition of "science".

There are some interesting arguments in favor of creation that I am willing to entertain. But can we agree that once you start talking about a creator's morality and/or personal interest in humans that we have left science far behind? I might possibly be convinced that there is a creator, but with that as a given I would conclude that the creator is indifferent at best, malicious at worst.

12 posted on 04/25/2012 7:29:35 PM PDT by Notary Sojac (Ut veniant omnes)
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To: Caleb1411
“. . . often featured a call for progress towards making predictions that could be tested at the LHC [Large Hadron Collider]. With LHC data now coming in, [opening speaker David] Gross acknowledged that this had been a failure: there are no string theory LHC predictions.”

http://spritzophrenia.wordpress.com/2011/08/26/the-multiverse-is-a-dead-parrot-is-atheism-in-trouble/

Dark matter/dark energy is going to die.

String theory will die.

The big bang is dead.

The Primordial soup is dead.

It's dead Jim.

Untold billions of dollars to try to avoid “Design”.

Cro-Magnon had a larger cranial capacity than modern humans and an average height of about 6’. Evolution?

13 posted on 04/25/2012 7:30:40 PM PDT by Puckster
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To: freedumb2003
Give us a modern horse found in the 12 million year strata

Exactly. Show me a fossilized velociraptor with a fossilized rabbit in its stomach and I'm a creationist, no doubt about it.

14 posted on 04/25/2012 7:32:05 PM PDT by Notary Sojac (Ut veniant omnes)
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To: scripter
Epigenetics combined with as yet unknown ways to accomplish transfer of genes between unrelated species probably accounts for all of it ~ and then, too, DNA is probably engaged in its own examination, analysis and solution to biological problems and may be thought of as self-assembling itself rather than simply being a passive vehicle for an invisible magical force called "Natural Selection".

Admit it guys, changes in DNA are more akin to mixing paint with a super computer, and far removed from cows chewing cud.

15 posted on 04/25/2012 7:32:25 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Puckster
The Cro-Magnon people are still with us.

We watch and wait, and then someday you will slip up and drop your guard and it'll be all over for your kind! (Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

16 posted on 04/25/2012 7:34:28 PM PDT by muawiyah
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To: Caleb1411

The theory of evolution is more rife with falsehoods and fabrications than man made global warming.


17 posted on 04/25/2012 7:35:16 PM PDT by rsobin
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To: schaef21

Hmm. How do you cut and past a post without reading it?


18 posted on 04/25/2012 7:35:29 PM PDT by DManA
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To: muawiyah

Akin to “Hiding the Decline” in AGW science.

Let there be no debate....only castigations.


19 posted on 04/25/2012 8:00:26 PM PDT by Puckster
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To: the OlLine Rebel

>>There’s 1 huge problem with your comparison.

Gravity is intrinsically evident to EVERYONE, EVERY DAY, even the biggest ninkumpoop. It is intuitive - what comes up, must come down. There is no theorizing about that, not on this earth.<<

Proof you have no idea what a Scientific Theory is. The observed effect of Gravity is one thing — WHAT CAUSES IT?

But I appreciate your making my point for me.

The TTOG is less understood than the TToE — and your post points that out.


20 posted on 04/25/2012 8:08:37 PM PDT by freedumb2003 ('RETRO' Abortions = performed on 84th trimester individuals who think killing babies is a "right.")
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To: DaveLoneRanger

>> but I couldn’t resist a shout-out for old time’s sake. Life was simpler back then<<

I usually post only once or twice to let the outside world know there are scientifically literate people on FR.

But the CRevo wars as you knew and dissembled to them will never be fought again.


21 posted on 04/25/2012 8:11:55 PM PDT by freedumb2003 ('RETRO' Abortions = performed on 84th trimester individuals who think killing babies is a "right.")
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To: rsobin

>>The theory of evolution is more rife with falsehoods and fabrications than man made global warming.<<

And you base this statement on...?

(I can easily make the contrary case but it will be fun to see you prove your point).


22 posted on 04/25/2012 8:13:31 PM PDT by freedumb2003 ('RETRO' Abortions = performed on 84th trimester individuals who think killing babies is a "right.")
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To: muawiyah

>>We watch and wait, and then someday you will slip up and drop your guard and it’ll be all over for your kind! <<

Ah, I see my ex-wife’s brother is here!! Man, you scared the heck out of me, especially at Christmas!


23 posted on 04/25/2012 8:15:36 PM PDT by freedumb2003 ('RETRO' Abortions = performed on 84th trimester individuals who think killing babies is a "right.")
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To: Caleb1411; All
So, here's what I'm thinking.

These laws COULD open the door to crackpot theories...and that's not to say pure Darwinism is not a crackpot theory.

But it also opens the door to religious dogma being taught as a counter-point to pure Darwinism which most folks don't subscribe to today anyway.

If I sent my kid to a PUBLIC school that taught Biblical Creationism as a counter-point to classic Darwinism, even I would sue them.

And I believe in Biblical Creationism.

People, don't open this door in the modern era. It will be the worst mistake your blindness ever made.

Want your kids to be educated in Islam (the version of Islam popular in leftist lore)? Want them to learn that Gaia is just another name for God?

Don't fall for the silly-assed aspirations of the zealots. It will not serve you well.

24 posted on 04/25/2012 8:34:16 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: freedumb2003
Sure you don't want to give an "everybody be nice" ping to the a**holes who plagued this board around 2005 and prior?

This is a political forum. Let's keep it that way.

25 posted on 04/25/2012 8:43:00 PM PDT by Tench_Coxe
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To: Caleb1411

Which sex “evolved” first, male or female, and if a given organism could reproduce successfully with only one sex, what would be the point of it slowly evolving a second sex? The whole theory is goofy, frankly. It’s about time that students were taught to think critically about origins, and not be force-fed a secularist lie. Bob


26 posted on 04/25/2012 8:47:46 PM PDT by alstewartfan ( 27 of 36 Romney judicial appointments were DEMOCRATS!!!!!)
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To: Tench_Coxe

>>Sure you don’t want to give an “everybody be nice” ping to the a**holes who plagued this board around 2005 and prior?<<

Those a**holes tried to provide facts to people. And were persecuted and driven from it for daring to educate people who refused to be educated. Like giving electricity to aboriginals.

>>This is a political forum. Let’s keep it that way.<<

Agreed. Why this thread was posted, I have no idea, but I have made it clear that some of us know the difference between a Scientific Theory and a layperson’s concept of a theory. I have made my point.

I shan’t post to this thread again.


27 posted on 04/25/2012 8:49:09 PM PDT by freedumb2003 ('RETRO' Abortions = performed on 84th trimester individuals who think killing babies is a "right.")
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To: Mariner

You’d sue them for what? Even YOU concede that Darwinism may be a “crackpot” theory, and your suspicions are correct. The answer for the classroom is, “We don’t know!” Bob


28 posted on 04/25/2012 8:50:19 PM PDT by alstewartfan ( 27 of 36 Romney judicial appointments were DEMOCRATS!!!!!)
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To: freedumb2003

Thank you.


29 posted on 04/25/2012 8:51:46 PM PDT by alstewartfan ( 27 of 36 Romney judicial appointments were DEMOCRATS!!!!!)
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To: alstewartfan
"You’d sue them for what?"

Using public dollars to fund the teaching of a religious dogma.

This is a no-brainer and I'm surprised you asked.

There is very substantial court precedent over the last 50 years and validation by the USSC in multiple cases.

Thank God.

30 posted on 04/25/2012 9:01:57 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: alstewartfan

I still have a hard time thinking that all this is chance.

Those that think they have evolved are the ones that need examining. If we learn anything about knowing our DNA is that conditions not time change us. Its all about the environment.


31 posted on 04/25/2012 9:03:52 PM PDT by Baseballguy (If we knew what we know now in Oct would we do anything different?)
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To: Notary Sojac
I might possibly be convinced that there is a creator, but with that as a given I would conclude that the creator is indifferent at best, malicious at worst.

You would be His work, is that how you see Him reflected in His creation, you? If you believe Him to be such, is it because that is how you see or know yourself? If you view Him this way, don't wonder if that is how He responds to you.

32 posted on 04/25/2012 9:07:38 PM PDT by Bellflower (The LORD is Holy, separated from all sin, perfect, righteous, high and lifted up.)
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To: Mariner

Then why aren’t you suing your district for teaching secularist religious dogma every bit as silly as athropogenic “climate change”? There is no science in macro=evolutionary theory whatsoever. Bob


33 posted on 04/25/2012 9:13:57 PM PDT by alstewartfan ( 27 of 36 Romney judicial appointments were DEMOCRATS!!!!!)
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To: Mariner
Using public dollars to fund the teaching of a religious dogma.

So you are either saying that no religious dogma can be true, by merit of it being a religious dogma, or that even if it is absolutely true, a lie must be taught in it's place. Do you really think that you are making sense? A lie is better than the truth, if it involves your Creator, who created everything that is being taught about? What a convoluted world you provide.

34 posted on 04/25/2012 9:21:09 PM PDT by Bellflower (The LORD is Holy, separated from all sin, perfect, righteous, high and lifted up.)
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To: Caleb1411

I don’t have enough faith to believe in Darwinism.

Pray for America


35 posted on 04/25/2012 9:25:17 PM PDT by bray (Power to We the People)
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To: alstewartfan
"There is no science in macro=evolutionary theory whatsoever."

I agree with that, but there is a great deal of science supporting in-species evolution.

Still, a secular fantasy is far less threatening, from my point of view, than the state adopting a "book" religious perspective to education. I believe that should be left to parents and preachers.

I have a very substantial fear of the state...and the state with a religious flavor terrifies me.

You have to remember, this is not the year 1217 and we are NOT the Holy Roman Empire.

I this modern era, in the USA and the rest of the Western World...you don't know WHAT you'll get from a government religion.

Sure, a Roman Catholic, or any other mainstream Christian Religion would give you a tolerable state order.

But that's not a certain outcome.

Consider: What if Mormons, Assemblies of God, Catholics, Muslims etc. gained the reins of state? Would you then be so sanguine? Jehovah's Witnesses? L Ron Hubbard?

36 posted on 04/25/2012 9:28:50 PM PDT by Mariner (War Criminal #18)
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To: Caleb1411
true believers in evolution

Beliefs belong in church.

37 posted on 04/25/2012 9:53:34 PM PDT by OldNavyVet
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To: freedumb2003
Those a**holes tried to provide facts to people. And were persecuted and driven from it for daring to educate people who refused to be educated. Like giving electricity to aboriginals.

Your post makes it look like you are giving way to the old atheist dream of combined martyr complex / revisionist history. Patrick Henry *did* have his homepage removed without warning by Jim Robinson; I never heard the full story from each of those gentlemen, so I can't meaningfully comment further.

But JR did note that this is a pro-God site and that among the evos (in the general population) were a number of atheists seeking to use evolution and a battering ram against Christianity; he didn't want that to happen here.

As far as the "energy to aboriginals" that is the typical autofellatory ad hominem we have come to love and know from liberals; it would be an interesting sociological study to map out the degree to which the evos hold that view, and how well that view correlates with the evo's position on the conservative -- libertarian spectrum. (Compare, for example, Rush Limbaugh's screen persona of bombast with Jason Lewis's intellectual preening.)

Cheers!

38 posted on 04/25/2012 10:08:42 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: Mariner

I don’t believe in taeaching Adam and Eve in school, but it probably was for the first century and a half in America with little ill effect. What I take issue with is the idea that “secularist fantasy” is non-threatening. When taught under the auspices of *science*, vulnerable young minds come to believe that we are our own gods. After all, if God is irrelevant to creation, we can all make our own rules with no consequence unless we get caught. If we have no more value than a chimp or protozoa, why treat others morally? Why do the right thing when no one is looking?
IMO, the theory of evolution has brought us a poisoned society where the most angry, hateful Marxists in America can now be elected President. They lie and prey upon susceptible to calls for envy and greed, and persuade a population incapable of critical thinking. Bob


39 posted on 04/25/2012 10:15:33 PM PDT by alstewartfan ( 27 of 36 Romney judicial appointments were DEMOCRATS!!!!!)
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To: OldNavyVet
Beliefs belong in church.

So unless someone is in Church they are to believe in nothing nor speak of believing in anything? So, in your mind, does God Himself evaporate every time one steps out of a Church?

40 posted on 04/25/2012 10:28:14 PM PDT by Bellflower (The LORD is Holy, separated from all sin, perfect, righteous, high and lifted up.)
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To: Mariner
Want your kids to be educated in Islam (the version of Islam popular in leftist lore)? Want them to learn that Gaia is just another name for God?

Perhaps you should actually talk to a few kids that are in school, where you will find that this is already being taught, to the total exclusion of Christianity.

Schools now have rooms with little rainbows on the door so the gay, lesbian, transgender, or transvestite can easily find a safe room, on the other hand Christians are on their own and subject to ridicule.

41 posted on 04/25/2012 11:03:19 PM PDT by itsahoot (I will not vote for Romney period, and by election day you won't like him either.)
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To: Caleb1411
more than 800 Ph.D.-bearing scientists have signed a statement expressing skepticism about contemporary evolutionary theory's claims that random mutation and natural selection account for the complexity of life.

And more than 1200 scientists whose first name is Steve have signed a statement that says, "Evolution is a vital, well-supported, unifying principle of the biological sciences, and the scientific evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of the idea that all living things share a common ancestry." Steves account for about 1% of scientist; you can do the math. Not that the fact that more scientists named Steve express support for evolution than all those that expressed skepticism means that evolution is valid. But hey, they didn't start the numbers game.

42 posted on 04/25/2012 11:35:20 PM PDT by Ha Ha Thats Very Logical
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To: DManA

You said: “I wouldn’t exactly call that a ringing condemnation of evolution theory. Of course you should examine the evidence carefully. What scientist wouldn’t agree with that?

What scientist wouldn’t agree with that? Scientists routinely ignore things that don’t fit their worldview. All I did was point out one example. I can give you many others if you’d like.


43 posted on 04/26/2012 3:32:07 AM PDT by schaef21
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To: Caleb1411

The School Board in Rio Rancho, New Mexico went down this road in 2005. It didn’t end well, even though the whole intent was simply to allow discussion of alternative theories of the origins of life.

I was living there when this first went down, and I personally know 3 of the 5 members of the board at that time.

Some organization has a bunch of links about the issue here: http://www.nmsr.org/riorncho.htm


44 posted on 04/26/2012 5:07:57 AM PDT by Disambiguator
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To: alstewartfan
If we have no more value than a chimp or protozoa, why treat others morally? Why do the right thing when no one is looking?

The media, with their usual facility for dumbing everything down to the simplest imaginable soundbites, universally claim that the Tennessee "monkey law" forbade the teaching of evolution. It really forbade telling kids that we came from animals, no more than that, and for just the reason you bring up.

Why are we always told that the law prohibited the teaching of evolution outright? 1) It promotes the perception that opposition to evolution is ignorant religious obscurantism, and 2) It conceals the real reason for evolution's appeal to those who are pushing it.

45 posted on 04/26/2012 5:35:45 AM PDT by thulldud (Is it "alter or abolish" time yet?)
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To: DManA
What scientist wouldn't agree with that?

It depends on how the terms are defined.

46 posted on 04/26/2012 6:34:15 AM PDT by Yashcheritsiy (Anybody but Obama and Romney)
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To: freedumb2003
Give us a modern horse found in the 12 million year strata and you have our attention.

I can give you a modern tree that's buried across a couple of hundred million years of strata.

47 posted on 04/26/2012 6:36:15 AM PDT by Yashcheritsiy (Anybody but Obama and Romney)
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To: freedumb2003
The universes are made by Lord Brahma the Creator, maintained by Lord Vishnu the Preserver and destroyed by Lord Shiva. Since the universes must be destroyed before they can be recreated, Lord Shiva is called the Destroyer and Re-creator. These three gods are all forms of Supreme One and part of the Supreme One. The Supreme One is behind and beyond all.

Sounds more plausible than the story about the Magical Miller-Urey Monster who created life from non-life against all known rules of organic chemistry...

48 posted on 04/26/2012 6:53:46 AM PDT by Yashcheritsiy (Anybody but Obama and Romney)
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To: Yashcheritsiy

They will say that your example does not apply because blah blah blah exception, exception, peer review blah blah, and you are not a scientist so you wouldn’t understand anyway.


49 posted on 04/26/2012 7:28:41 AM PDT by webstersII
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To: Bellflower
Science is a matter of facts; wishful thinking isn't.

Suggestion: take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostles'_Creed

In particular, note the beliefs expressed therein and the changes made to that Creed in 2011.

50 posted on 04/26/2012 7:32:56 AM PDT by OldNavyVet
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