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South Florida Survivalists Prepare for the Apocalypse
Miami New Times ^ | Thursday, Apr 26 2012 | Stefan Kamph

Posted on 04/28/2012 11:14:17 PM PDT by nickcarraway

Jorge Villa was an exporter with an engineering degree from the University of Miami when Hurricane Andrew struck Kendall in 1992. As the storm arrived, he took his pregnant wife and the rest of his family to a warehouse space across from the Tamiami airport. It was a clear, breezy evening. He bolted the roll-down door, and the family laid out sleeping bags. By 1 a.m., he could hear the ventilation fans being ripped off the roof. By 2 a.m., it sounded like a freight train was running over the building. The rooms filled with water. His wife felt like she was going into labor. When he emerged, devastation was everywhere. Warehouses just like his were gone. Airplanes were scattered. He spent the next seven years of free time devising and constructing a shelter that could withstand hurricanes and virtually any other attack.

Today, the yard outside his warehouse is filled with 18-ton bunkers — octagons of white-painted concrete atop thick, square steel legs. They look virtually immovable. In the office, a child's drawing shows one of the UFO-like objects, with the name of his company, "U.S. Bunkers," scrawled along the top.

Villa will custom-manufacture one of these units for anywhere from $8,000 to $60,000. Options include beds, built-in toilets, air-conditioning hookups, toxic-gas filtration systems, gun turrets, rocket-propelled-grenade armor, video surveillance, plumbing, and snappy wood trim. Villa says he has sold "a couple dozen units" since starting manufacturing in 1999.

He cites growing interest in the shelters in the past few years, due to uncertainties about the economy. He has received calls from people concerned about the end of the Mayan calendar this coming December. The units he has sold are hidden in back yards around the state, away from the prying eyes of neighbors who would seek shelter in a time of need. Solutions like this appeal to a growing segment of people who are actively preparing for what they think is inevitable: devastation on a scale we have never known.

Some of them fit the stereotype of survivalists: the sometimes-camoed, always-armed fellows who wander in and out of gun shops and banter about calibers at the counter. But the image of the hostile sociopath hoarding guns under a tarp is an outdated one, and it's not good PR for those who want others to prepare. Survivalism has gone family-friendly, and its proponents call themselves "preppers."

Terrorism, alien attacks, the Mayan apocalypse — the typical doom-and-gloom scenarios for the end of the world — are on some preppers' minds. But a more immediate, and more unsettling, threat is the chance of economic failure. Preppers imagine a worthless U.S. dollar and all financial investments wiped away — and along with them all the rules governing behavior and property. And they, like Villa, will do what comes naturally: work to protect their families, whatever that might require.

Neal Wiseman can see his entire shop from where he stands, behind the glass display case at Dixie Guns and Ammo, but he can't see the future — not yet.

That doesn't mean he won't try. Wiseman is in his 30s, with a soldier's buzzcut and the friendly forward momentum of a high-school wrestling coach. A pair of iPhone earbuds frames his face as he greets customers.

It took a little faith for Wiseman to buy this business, tucked into a chainlink-fenced corner of a Pompano Beach public-storage park, with a partner in 2008. Sales are brisk, but the feds are always a distant threat, ready to shut him down for selling a stolen gun or failing to check registrations. The shop relies on hand-painted signs and word of mouth.

Wiseman used to sell residential real estate, but around 2005 he thought he saw home prices begin to flatten. "I got extremely defensive in my positioning," he says. He sold off 14 properties and became a police officer. "I thought things were going to really crash at that time, so I was wrong. But the situation is progressively getting more volatile."

He leads me into the back office, where he does his bookkeeping, and shuts the door. Bars cover the window. Settling into a swivel chair at his desk, Wiseman unpacks a rifle from a cardboard box and expertly pieces it together, aiming for a moment at a spot on the wall.

If society collapses, one thing is for sure: The glass counter and electronic cash register separating his business from his customers won't count for much. In a scenario where there is no money, no electricity, no doctors, and no food, the people who haven't prepared — the "zombies," as they're called in the prepper community — will swarm the preppers. Wiseman will need to find a new way of living, taking survival and protection into his own hands, leaving behind his reliance on the value of a dollar or a police officer's word. "For now, I'm still selling shit that other people made," he admits. "I haven't found my place in that society."

Wiseman moderates a group on Meetup.com called the South Florida Survivalist Network, Region 6. On the network's website, members of the group discuss various end-of-the-world scenarios (officially called "shit-hits-the-fan," or SHTF, in prepper lingo). He reads a quote from another prepper: "It always has been and always will be the power of the mind that has the most influence on the course of human events. Practice now, store now, think outside of your comfort zone. Each and every moment that our [electrical and communications] grid is up is a blessing."

We get up to leave, but we're trapped in the office. Not realizing we were still in the back, Wiseman's partner closed the shop and went home, locking us in. Before I fully register what has happened, Wiseman has unsheathed a machete. He uses it to jimmy the lock in a single motion.

At his home in Lauderdale-by-the-Sea, Wiseman has rigged pipes connected to gutters to allow rainwater to flow into plastic collection barrels. A fledgling vegetable garden blooms by the front door.

"I'm currently prepared to self-sustain for at least a full year, with no contact with the outside world, with a family of four and two dogs," he explains. Inside the garage, he keeps his "preps," or supplies. Instead of kayaks and bicycles, he stores food, fuel, tampons, and toilet paper. He negotiated with Publix managers for about a dozen buckets of vacuum-packed bulk grains and beans. A shelving unit holds rows of boxed pasta and canned fruits and vegetable. He has calculated exactly how many rations his family will need to stay alive.

His wife is a lawyer, he says, and she makes good money. She isn't nearly as involved in prepping, but she allows him to spend part of the family budget on items such as the tremendous olive-green military-surplus backpack that stands ready to go, bulging with food, weapons, and medical supplies. Wiseman would take it outside to practice walking with it, but he doesn't because he'd probably be stopped by cops. It's not difficult to imagine him shouldering the pack while walking alone down the middle of a street with fires raging on both sides and threats in every shadow.

Inside the house, Wiseman greets his two little sons, one of whom is old enough to babble excitedly. He gives candy to the younger boy because Mom isn't home yet, and turns on cartoons on the flat-screen TV set. The children's nanny says goodbye and leaves.

Wiseman surveys his territory. "After the collapse," he says, "I'm going to miss the nanny."

Here's his picture of a postcollapse world: "You'll have a million predators who own guns and have made no preps. Those are the people to guard against."

I arrive early one Saturday evening in February for the South Florida preppers' monthly meet-and-greet barbecue at Wiseman's shop. An older man named Mr. Ike grills hamburgers in a parking space, while families with children fix up plates and pop sodas under a canopy of camouflage netting.

Wiseman has been running a promotion: Buy 100 rounds of ammo and get an Army-surplus metal ammunition can, a bit smaller than a shoebox, free. Not only can these boxes be used to store bullets or other items, but they can also be fashioned into a rudimentary Faraday cage. He explains that many preppers fear an electromagnetic pulse (EMP) of destructive gamma waves, triggered by a solar flare or a nuclear weapon launched into the sky. Within minutes, such a pulse could fry our electrical and communications grids and destroy the integrated-circuit chips inside all unshielded electronics. But get one of these boxes, line it with foil, and pop an extra phone or radio inside: instant shield.

Outside the store, I find Chris Petrovich, a 42-year-old Peruvian-American man who wears a rosary underneath his usual tropical shirt. If Wiseman is the social coordinator for the preppers, Petrovich is their diplomat.

His inspiration comes not from a single disaster, but from an accretion of scenes that most people in South Florida spend their lives ignoring. He traveled through the world's poorest countries as a young man working for his father's agricultural consulting firm. The rainbow of stamps in his expired passport holds horror stories. He doesn't want to go into details, not at first.

Petrovich is also vague when describing his day job. From a nondescript office in Hollywood, he does business with developing nations, consulting on agricultural equipment sales. On the side, he also teaches daylong basic survival classes for a small fee, advertising through the Meetup site. Students often come to him nervous and overwhelmed, Petrovich says. He tells them two things: "Anyone can prepare, and it's not too late." It's almost like joining a church.

He is intent on showing me that many preppers these days defy the white-male stereotypes and that women in charge of their families' finances are the fastest-growing part of the group. He introduces me to Amy, a wide-eyed National Rifle Association member who recently moved here from California and learned about prepping from friends in the hunting and firearms communities. I also meet Zee, an African-American police officer in Miami who says she was inspired to prep by the mayhem she sees every day on the poorest streets of South Florida.

They're both friendly over burgers and beer, but guarded about the preparations they've made. Neither will return my calls later.

Then I meet a man in his 50s with longish gray hair, a sizable belly, and camouflage pants. He gives his name only as "Bowreeguard," making sure that's how I spell it. He says preparation was a fact of life for his family during winters in "Live Free or Die" New Hampshire.

Bowreeguard worked in the explosives industry there, and he and his friends were a hard-working, gun-toting bunch. In the '90s — when survivalists had been tarnished in the media by characters such as Timothy McVeigh, David Koresh, and Ted Kaczynski — they took some bulldozers out to the deep country and excavated a "fire base," where they buried nine school buses to form a semi-underground bunker. Or so Bowreeguard says — he won't tell where the compound is, and he doesn't have photographs.

They got a friend to drill a well in the middle of the bunker. They piled up food, communications lines, and many gallons of water. And on the evening of December 31, 1999, he and dozens of his cohorts gathered for the end. If not fireballs, they expected at least a total breakdown in communications because of the alleged Y2K computer bug. They expected ensuing looting for food and a glimpse of society unhinged.

The clocks flipped placidly to midnight, then 12:01. The only explosions on the news were fireworks. "When it was over and nothing happened, we were so disappointed," he admits. "The next day, we all went back to work."

Bowreeguard says he moved to Florida to work in the transportation industry ten days after the 9/11 attacks. He's been making bulk trips to Costco and wheeling a shopping cart up to his condominium under cover of darkness to build his stockpile. He says he has enough food to last him and his adult son for months, as well as a carefully curated selection of firearms. For drinking water, he keeps an eye on the swimming pool.

"When people ask me why I prepare, I tell them it's because I'm waiting for the zombies," Bowreeguard explains. "Then they laugh it off and don't look at you like you're such a nut-freak." When he gets into conversations with people about total anarchy that could result from a financial breakdown or a nuclear attack by China or North Korea, he tends to make people angry or terrified.

A clammy-looking severed pig's foot sits on a paper plate. A cheerful male voice pipes in: "Hello, prepper nation. This is Dr. Bones, a medical doctor and surgeon for more than 25 years, and together with the lovely Nurse Amy, we host The Doom and Bloom Show." The doctor's hand, filling out a yellowish latex glove, floats into the frame of the YouTube video. The fingers palpate the foot, which compresses like human flesh.

The doctor drapes a sheet of paper over the foot, revealing a single circle of skin. Soon he makes a slice with a #10 scalpel. There is no blood, and he pulls the skin apart to reveal the tendon beneath. He injects the wound with lidocaine, soaking and swelling it. He opens a package of 2-0 silk suture thread, connected to a needle. He uses forceps to lift a flap of skin and drives the suture through.

Dr. Bones and Nurse Amy, a married couple, are two local preppers and teachers with a national reach through an Internet radio show, books they've written, a seminar they cohost, and the YouTube channel (drbonespodcast). As he says in the video, they weren't always preppers: He worked under another name as an obstetrician, delivering hundreds of babies into the cruel world through modern medicine. Amy stood by him as a nurse and midwife during much of his practice.

And like anyone dealing with sensitive matters of life and death, they witnessed their share of distress. When Hurricane Andrew hit, the doctor recalls, he rounded up a few of his late-term pregnant patients in a single hospital room and waited out the storm with them. Through a shaking window, he watched a concrete bus bench topple over and then blow away.

Almost a decade later, on the morning of September 11, 2001, the doctor was delivering a baby by cesarean section at Memorial Hospital West in Pembroke Pines as the World Trade Center towers collapsed. The baby was fine, but due to an error by a shell-shocked nurse who had heard of the attacks, the doctor says, a sponge was left inside the patient. The mother brought a malpractice suit against the doctor and the hospital, which ended in a large settlement. The doctor, who retains his medical license in good stead, retired from his practice a few years later and has since become a prominent teacher in the prepping world. Dr. Bones operates mostly on pigs' feet these days, but if he and Amy are right about the way the world is going, this work could be just as important.

Approaching their home in Weston, I stop at the entrance to a lush gated community and hand my driver's license to the unarmed guard. A fountain trickles in front of the gatehouse. I drive around a large cul-de-sac to a house with a giant portico and entryway. Amy answers the door.

She carries herself with the abundant tenderness of her nurse's trade. She looks younger than her age of 46.

"Beautiful neighborhood," I say.

"Yeah. Except we don't know any of our neighbors."

Nurse Amy sounds a little sad about this typical suburban malaise, but their isolation is also intentional. She and her husband have stockpiled a year of food in the garage and maintain an experimental "survival garden" with edible food, curative herbs, and a tilapia pond. They also have enough medical supplies and knowledge to perform virtually any procedure on the fly. Like other preppers, they're worried that if their identities and location were revealed, they would be the target of aggressive zombies in a collapse. They publish under the pen names of Joseph and Amy Alton.

Their latest book, The Doom and Bloom Survival Medicine Handbook, contains 400 pages of surprisingly comprehensive medical advice on everything from burn treatment to insulin shock. The guide contains a hefty disclaimer about how it's illegal to be one's own doctor, but it also imagines a world where that's the only option.

Their life after the hospital is calm and domestic, filled with old knowledge. Amy leads me out to the garden. Under the expansive screened-in pool area, a pepper vine climbs to the ceiling and a pump vibrates in an ornate stucco pond that's filled with tilapia. Tomato plants compete for sunlight nearby. Most things in the garden are edible, she explains, but they wouldn't sustain the couple for long in a true collapse. This garden is mostly for experimentation and instruction through their YouTube videos.

We sit down at the table on the patio where the couple hosts the weekly Doom and Bloom Survival Hour Internet radio show on blogtalkradio.com, speaking with call-in guests and sharing tips for gardening, medicine, and general self-sufficiency. Dr. Bones tells me that their library is filled with 19th-century medical books, from a time when people often had to take care of medical emergencies themselves.

"These things should just be normal," Amy says. "People who don't prep — I hope they're the unusual ones."

The couple seems very normal, actually, right down to their little marital idiosyncrasies. They are affectionately competitive and often cut off one another's sentences. But do they really, truly believe the world as we know it is coming to an end?

"No," Amy says. But, she adds, "a slow economic collapse is what you're seeing now."

"The likelihood of any particular disaster is very small," the doctor interrupts, "but what's the likelihood that none of them will happen in your lifetime?"

He pauses. "Our dream is to die at age 100 with our grandchildren whispering in our ears: 'Hey, Gramps, what the heck are we going to do with all these supplies?'"

When the shit hits the fan, not much will happen, because there will be no electricity to power it. So the filthy fan will just sit there in the rising heat, along with the rest of our old conveniences, rendered useless in a future that most of us have failed to properly imagine.

It might begin with something small and nonviolent: For example, the value of the dollar begins to tumble steadily. You go to the bank to get some cash so you can convert what savings you have into material investments. When you get to the bank, you see a long line of cars at the drive-thru. On the radio, you listen to news of impending war with a Middle Eastern state backed by China, an expanding global competitor in arms and trade. Oil transport routes have been closed off in the conflict. A few of the waiting customers have turned off their engines to save gas.

When it's your turn, you speak into the intercom, asking to withdraw your balance. The teller informs you that the bank has placed a $5,000-per-day limit on withdrawals. They're trying to keep some cash on hand despite its plummeting value. The teller offers you a high-interest loan instead. You drive off angrily. Most people with bank accounts are irate.

"If I really thought the end was right here, I wouldn't be here right now," Petrovich, the prepping evangelist, says as we sit on the patio next to the swimming pool at his house in Hollywood. He has just finished outlining something like the above scenario for me as we drink cold beers and eat rice and beans with gumbo. It's Mardi Gras evening, and he's having some friends and family over. We're sated by the good meal and talking quietly as the light leaves the sky. His mother stands in the doorway, watching as children run and laugh while circling the pool on a bicycle.

Petrovich has a sense of humor about his fire-and-brimstone scenarios. "If there is a zombie invasion, I hope it's the slow ones," he says, refusing to crack a full smile. His favorite TV show is The Walking Dead. He quotes Dr. Strangelove and has a robust library of mass-market paperbacks.

For him, as for most preppers, the thrill is in making oneself stronger. Like any obsession, it's endlessly demanding. The more you prepare, the more you realize how unprepared you are, so it becomes easy not to do anything. "A lot of people just sit there in place and die in place," he says. "Prepping will give you confidence. Besides, look at all the great things I've learned."

If a collapse really happens, Petrovich, who says he's been prepping for 25 years, will call the network of fellow preppers he trusts with his life and family. Then he'll go to the secret location where he keeps food, weapons, gas masks, and everything else he needs for more than a year.

State authorities will activate the Florida Interoperability Network, a coordinated system of state and local radio frequencies that can broadcast signals once the traditional equipment goes down. Local governments will use "several caches of portable radio equipment in various locations throughout the state," according to an official emergency plan, and fire up eight trailers with 100-foot antennas, generators, and broadcasting gear. Volunteers with ARES, the Amateur Radio Emergency Service, will fire up their ham radios and tap into a government-sanctioned plan for disseminating information.

What happens over the following weeks will look familiar to Petrovich, who has seen glimpses of humans in crisis during his travels in his 25-year career.

There was Durban, South Africa, in 1997. He knew a decent Indian place and went to get some curry. At once, he faced a riot of angry Zulu nationalists parading down the street, brandishing short spears and clubs. He saw them put a tire around a man's neck and light it on fire. Six or seven police officers around him began shooting randomly into the crowd.

Sierra Leone, 1998: The local police and military were stealing food from aid deliveries, and refugees scrambled viciously for sustenance. Petrovich witnessed what people look like when they're truly hungry.

And there was New Orleans in 2005. For the first time in decades, the nation confronted a nationalized horror of deprivation following Hurricane Katrina. Americans saw the system fail. But, Petrovich explains, "the people in the Lower Ninth Ward knew that somewhere outside the city, the government was still there. Now take that away."

Petrovich is likely to stay in town after a disaster — while the humans around him go into starvation mode, the canals flood with fetid water, and mold takes over untended houses. The preppers in his personal group will have enough gasoline to escape. Petrovich has helped them cache extra fuel and food, stashed in public-storage units and underground, at intervals on an 800-to-1,200-mile path out of Florida. Amid darkness and chaos, skirting burning sugarcane fields and accidents and roadblocks, they'll drive from cache to cache toward a secret inland hiding spot, exhausting the last available remnants of the petroleum age.

The government may well implement an evacuation plan, under a federal policy that was heavily revamped after the botched evacuation of Katrina victims. In short, evacuees will be herded out of town on the same three major routes that South Floridians use every day: I-95, I-75, and the turnpike.

Petrovich knows that if he stays — hell, or if he goes — he'll encounter people with whom he doesn't agree, preppers of a different political stripe. Anarchist hippies, communists, gangsters. He doesn't mind, as long as they're prepared. His response to them during his decades of prepping has been cordial, with a simple acknowledgment:

"I guess I'll see you out there."

Darkness falls on his patio, and I'm one of the last guests to leave. On my way out, Petrovich hands me two DVDs of zombie-apocalypse movies and two books: one about a complete halt in oil production and the other, One Second After, about an EMP attack launched from container ships. They're some of his favorites, and he wants them back the next time we meet.

He also gives me a tomato seedling he dug up from his garden and transplanted into a 20-ounce McCafé cup, a gift meant to be a small step toward my own self-sufficiency. I drive home with it in the cup holder — a tiny, living thing, the last step in an unbroken chain of growth and germination that stretches back millions of years, persistent against all the odds.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: prepperping; preppers; prepping; selfreliance; shtf; survialists; survivalping; teotwawki
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To: JRandomFreeper
And brother, you are preparing, one way or another. You are preparing to be part of the problem, or part of the solution.

Excellent way of putting it.

51 posted on 04/29/2012 7:50:50 AM PDT by bgill
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To: 2ndDivisionVet
Millions of American Survivalists Prepare

I think the gist of the article was that millions of Americans have taken no other preparation measures other than buying a gun and some ammo and these are the people the "preppers" will have to defend themselves against.

52 posted on 04/29/2012 7:58:54 AM PDT by Drew68
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To: JRandomFreeper

Well put, JRandom.

There is no way in Hell that my family is going to be dependent on the largesse or competence of Government if this break down. We will be the folks who say to them “Thanks, but those folks down the way are much worse off than we are. If you could leave some xxx we’d be grateful. But take your stuff over there where they really need it.”

L


53 posted on 04/29/2012 8:15:57 AM PDT by Lurker (The avalanche has begun. The pebbles no longer have a vote.)
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To: spirited irish

As a member of the Bildebergers Kissinger should know ...


54 posted on 04/29/2012 9:13:11 AM PDT by MHGinTN (Being deceived can be cured.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

“There are more hunters in just Michigan than any army on earth can field.”

Add-in just Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, and the numbers get H-U-G-E. Factor-in all 50 (or is it 57?) States, and it’s M-A-S-S-I-V-E.

Just saying...


55 posted on 04/29/2012 9:24:51 AM PDT by carriage_hill (I'd vote for a "orange juice can", before 0bummer&HisRegimeFromHell, gets another 4yrs. Can-> later.)
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To: nickcarraway

Reference bump .... Thanks! ;-)


56 posted on 04/29/2012 9:31:27 AM PDT by Tunehead54 (Nothing funny here ;-)
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To: GladesGuru

When the SHTF do you think the Big Cypress will get inundated with east/west coast urbanites thinking they can hole up out there?


57 posted on 04/29/2012 9:36:01 AM PDT by Rebelbase
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To: spirited irish
As for the preppers, it seems to me that only with hardened hearts can they feed themselves while all around them are those who are starving.

Thanks for the tip on the "hardened heart" .. I'll start working on that next week as part of my preparations.

It's easy to find excuses not to prepare (aka "due diligence"). Is your home also not insured against fire?

58 posted on 04/29/2012 9:38:28 AM PDT by The Duke
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To: reformedliberal

“Doxycycline has a 2 year shelf life. After that, it can turn toxic. “

Yea, I saw that...definitely keep clear. But that seems to be the only ones that really get harmful (rather than lose potency)...so having 50% Amox definitely beats 0%, after ‘it’ happens.


59 posted on 04/29/2012 9:44:48 AM PDT by BobL
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To: Graybeard58

“What’s the shelf life of unrefigerated insulin?”

Please don’t ask me...I have no clue and would never venture anything. But you might want to think about a direct solar-powered refrigerator, as that can only help things, after ‘it’ happens. The nice thing about a solar refrig is that as it loses power due to cold weather, you don’t need it to operate as much.


60 posted on 04/29/2012 9:48:11 AM PDT by BobL
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To: The Duke
I always thought you were a little hard-hearted. ;)

You can tell some folks, but you can't tell 'em much. The nay-sayers eventually shut-up and slink off, because they can't stand to look at themselves as useless and unprepared, when others are preparing.

/johnny

61 posted on 04/29/2012 9:52:25 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: exnavy
But the image of the hostile sociopath hoarding guns under a tarp is an outdated one, and it's not good PR for those who want others to prepare. Survivalism has gone family-friendly, and its proponents call themselves "preppers."

Translation - the 'press' has discovered liberals are 'prepping' too... so they can't trash people concerned about the future. What hypocrisy.

62 posted on 04/29/2012 10:12:33 AM PDT by GOPJ (Obama's father, grandfather and great-grandfather were polygamists.-ALL,including Obama ate dogs!!)
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To: spirited irish

“As for the preppers, it seems to me that only with hardened hearts can they feed themselves while all around them are those who are starving.”

One has but a limited number of cheeks to turn, you know.

Ask yourself what the Urban Ferals would not take from you, if society breaks down even just long enough to give the Ferals a chance? Now ask yourself what they would not do to you and yours if they did not fear the police?


63 posted on 04/29/2012 10:18:46 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: Lurker
"We will be the folks who say to them “Thanks, but those folks down the way are much worse off than we are. If you could leave some xxx we’d be grateful. But take your stuff over there where they really need it.” "

Yup.

Three days after Katrina hit and the electricity was still out, the Red Cross from Nebraska showed up handing out MRE's....we were on the back deck having garlic bread, spaghetti and wine.
We invited them for some lunch and advised them to go to another road because no-one on this road will need MRE's. I was suprised when they said they were not allowed to go to another road.

64 posted on 04/29/2012 10:21:27 AM PDT by blam
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To: spirited irish

“And if this proves to be the case, then preppers will be forcibly overcome. Their bunkers will not survive the fire-power used against them.”

Possibly true, but I ask that you consider The Case Of The Finnish Sniper”. One man, with only a bolt action rifle, killed over 500 Russian soldiers. He did this in winter, when tracking him was far easier than tracking in most of America, most of the time.

As a sniper, he didn’t shoot from a known bunker, he kept moving.

Coming from both an American and a Jewish background, I am aware of the possibilities. I am also not going to become a bar of soap without a fight.

Those unwilling to fight will be killed in unspeakable fashions.


65 posted on 04/29/2012 10:27:49 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: spirited irish

“Just my thoughts for what they are worth.”

Your thoughts have no value to others except to inform that in a long term emergency with no water/food, you will die.


66 posted on 04/29/2012 10:53:19 AM PDT by Marcella (Romney: for Abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage - No to Romney)
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To: nickcarraway

It must be nice for liberal journalists to feel so secure that they can make fun of those who prepare for contingencies. They’re like the oblivious welfare-recipients of New Orleans, watching Katrina head to shore. Except that they all went to Columbia for J-school.


67 posted on 04/29/2012 10:55:30 AM PDT by ottbmare (The OTTB Mare)
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To: GladesGuru
I am also not going to become a bar of soap without a fight.

Took me a minute to process that. Oy.

Bless you. Fight well.

/johnny

68 posted on 04/29/2012 11:01:37 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: GladesGuru
Body Armor: Because If You’re Shooting Down Range, You Can Bet Someone’s Shooting Back At You

Food… check.

Water… check.

Guns and ammo… check.

Gold, silver and bartering supplies… check.

Most of those who have taken steps to prepare for a post-collapse America have acquired the basic essential goods and trading supplies that will be needed in the event of worst-case economic, financial or societal collapse.

We’ve created bug-out, bug-in, and self defense plans that we hope will be sufficient enough to give us the edge against potential thieves, looters and criminals who will undoubtedly be coming for our supplies when resources in the general population begin to run dry.
Stocked with the latest in SHTF weaponary and ammunition, the overwhelming majority of us believe that we’ll be able to neutralize any threat that may present itself.

69 posted on 04/29/2012 11:02:40 AM PDT by blam
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To: blam
.we were on the back deck having garlic bread, spaghetti and wine.

That's what I'm talking about. Some folks know about my finances just can't understand how I always manage to have great meals, regardless of the circumstances.

No point in suffering just because things turned into crap.

In my humble opionion, it's not just about survival, it's about living the fullest life possible, with whatever you happen to have available. Beans and rice can be boring and hateful, or they can make you go get a third helping. The difference is in the attitude and training.

/johnny

70 posted on 04/29/2012 11:06:02 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Rebelbase

“When the SHTF do you think the Big Cypress will get inundated with east/west coast urbanites thinking they can hole up out there?”

For their sake, I hope not. Much of the year the bugs will drive them back or drive them mad. The ‘Glades is hot, humid, and generally not an acceptable habitat for people.

The Everglades is the usual textbook example of a nutrient deficient habitat and thus is a low bio-productivity area. Deer are few in number, small, and small mammals are scarce. In some areas, excrementious management by ParcPersons has resulted in near total depletion of the deer herd.

ParcPersons also extirpated the wild hog and pythons are finishing off the survivors. Recent freezes killed off the ocaras and the fish biomass has yet to recover.

Worst of all may be the response of the Indians. Because the Americas didn’t develop distilled beverages, the Indigenous did not develop the tolerance to alcohol which Caucasians taker for granted. Thus alcoholism is a major issue with the Seminole and Miccosukee Indians. Add in the drug issues resultant from vast amounts of casino income, and then ask what will happen when supplies of alcohol and drugs are cut off.

Another factor is that there is s simmering hatred of whites amongst a significant number of Indians. This may mean that the Everglades Indians will not be the same as the Navaho during WW II. Don’t expect a “Code Talker” level of committment to either you or your presence in land which some feel is theirs when it can be retaken.

Beyond the cultural issues, be they past sins against the habitat by those to whom we entrusted the Everglades, or perceived sins against the Indians, the most important issue will be why the urban areas are being moved away from

If a biological attack occurs, may well be seen as carriers. If a nuking has occurred, then the survivors will not be seen as walking biohazards.

In any case, the question boils down to how many can the limited dry land areas support and for how long? How those reaching the area can manage to keep a semblance of order will determine how the entire human population of the area survives.

If travel devolves to the level where vehicles are attacked for their fuel, then all bets are off regarding a rapid return to some semblance of an ordered American society.

If travel is still possible, then a moderate number of people could find refuge for some period of time in the ‘Glades.

Long term survival for even a portion of the present Indian population would be difficult without technical supplies from a present day level of American civilivation.

The Everglades never supported a population of any size until the white civilization arrived. Take that away, and history will repeat itself.


71 posted on 04/29/2012 11:17:55 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: GladesGuru

For any FReeper who wants to obtain their CCW permit, I will teach the NRA pistol course which will be accepted by teh State of Florida (and many other states) as the required training for your CCW application.

The cost will be just enough to cover the paperwork and training materials NRA charges. ‘Course, a contribution to FR would be appreciated.

;-)

I have a small private range where I teach a low key, data rich program in handgun self defense. Yes, I do lived in the interior of the ‘Glades. Yes, bug spray is advised. No, the ‘gators won’t eat you. Neither will the bear, cougar or python.

And, you ask - how can I say that?

Because being armed means being at the top of the food chain, that’s why.


72 posted on 04/29/2012 11:27:12 AM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: JRandomFreeper; spirited irish

Johnny, when Ike came through, I was without power for five days. That did not bother me - due to preps, I had a working TV, working telephone, good water as long as I needed it, a way to stay cool in the Texas heat and sleep in relative coolness, way to heat/cook, plenty of good food, medical supplies if I needed them and a supply of my required medicines, way for people to assume there was no one in house, and security measures to kick spirited irish’s butt if he showed up wanting my stuff.

I am a woman, but you are dead if you try to come in my house.

You bet, I am prepared to last a very long time and have everything I need.


73 posted on 04/29/2012 11:31:40 AM PDT by Marcella (Romney: for Abortion, homosexuality, same sex marriage - No to Romney)
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To: GladesGuru
Opposable thumbs and the intellegence to use them rock!

/johnny

74 posted on 04/29/2012 11:39:45 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Marcella
but you are dead if you try to come in my house.

Amen! Preach it, Sister.

I did manage to train both my daughters to the same standard. In fact, the youngest wants me to check in with her before I sell or trade a firearm, she's claiming first right of refusal for stuff she hasn't inherited yet. ;)

It's empowering to be able to carry on when stuff turns into crap. But there are people out there that panic over a flat tire.... I don't get it.

/johnny

75 posted on 04/29/2012 11:43:25 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JDoutrider

mark @com2


76 posted on 04/29/2012 12:13:14 PM PDT by JDoutrider (Impeach! Incarcerate! Deport!)
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To: Olog-hai

So you’re saying its biblical to let your family starve to death?


77 posted on 04/29/2012 12:45:54 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: GladesGuru

Never underestimate the imagination of someone who has been soundly refuted.


78 posted on 04/29/2012 12:58:42 PM PDT by papertyger ("And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if..."))
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To: reformedliberal

In some cases its the binder which turns toxic and not the medicine itself. Many medicines become less effective with age but don’t turn toxic.

The link Kartographer provider earlier is a good reference and provided by an MD - http://www.survivalblog.com/2010/07/a_doctors_thoughts_on_antibiot.html


79 posted on 04/29/2012 1:35:01 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

I am familiar with that link.

Even at this stage of the global economy, collapse or not, it is all getting a bit problematic. Shortages of some medications, fewer generics, most production overseas, and I read recently that even common medical supplies, like tubing, are mostly being manufactured abroad.

My husband tries to stay 2-3 years ahead on his personal meds. Otherwise, we have med staff/clinician friends who are stockpiling some injectable antibiotics and other items. So far, they say they have been able to work around the shortages and, of course, they are knowledgeable about substitutions. IMO, they know what is most stable and, as important, which antibiotics, et al, are best for what. From what I read and have learned otherwise, it is important to know which antibiotic to use for which sort of infection. Then, there is knowledge if dosage and side effects/interactions.

That is a lot of knowledge that is not that easy for the layperson to assimilate.


80 posted on 04/29/2012 2:39:33 PM PDT by reformedliberal
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To: nickcarraway

Good post - thanks


81 posted on 04/29/2012 2:54:02 PM PDT by Iron Munro (If Repub's paid as much attention to Rush Limbaugh as the Dem's do, we wouldn't be in this mess)
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To: spirited irish

It is the fact that , while you could conceivably feed one beggar in Spain, if you tried to feed them all, you would soon be a beggar, yourself. And if you became known as someone who was feeding beggars, you would soon be overrun with them.


82 posted on 04/29/2012 2:58:49 PM PDT by reformedliberal
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To: spirited irish
As for the preppers, it seems to me that only with hardened hearts can they feed themselves while all around them are those who are starving.

On a national scale, it is this kind of daffy, feel-good thinking that has led to the impending bankruptcy of the nation.

Sometimes adults have to be able to make rational, informed judgements and distinguish between want and need, between what feels good and what is sensible and sustainable, between eating your feed corn or not.


83 posted on 04/29/2012 3:29:40 PM PDT by Iron Munro (If Repub's paid as much attention to Rush Limbaugh as the Dem's do, we wouldn't be in this mess)
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To: reformedliberal

I purchased a physicians desk reference book and a nurses guide to drugs based on the recommendation of a nurse friend. I also have numerous other medical references. My goal is to have a basic level of knowledge myself and supplies for most basic problems. Perhaps if its something serious there will be someone around who can use those items to help.

As you say its unrealistic to develop this level of knowledge as a hobby.


84 posted on 04/29/2012 3:32:48 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: driftdiver

One thing you need to understand is that the PDR is basically a reprint of what the drug company puts in the box with the meds. It is a good basic guide but cross check what you read there.


85 posted on 04/29/2012 3:48:26 PM PDT by Clay Moore (The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of a fool to the left. Ecclesiastes 10:2)
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To: GladesGuru

Your sentiments are perfectly reasonable, and I for one find no fault with them.

However,the constant subject of the article under discussion is the advent of something on the order of an apocalyse rather than a hurricane, a house fire as one poster sarcastically alluded to, or perhaps a war fought in another country.

With a hurricane for instance, one may reasonably expect to recover since the rest of the nation is intact and able to send help. But an apocalypse speaks of wholesale devastation with no expectation of help from a neighboring state.

It is on the basis of an apocalyptic scenario that my observations rest.


86 posted on 04/29/2012 4:02:33 PM PDT by spirited irish
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To: spirited irish; GladesGuru

“It is on the basis of an apocalyptic scenario that my observations rest.”

Still doesn’t make any sense. I am not the government, nor am I responsible for everyone else. Charity is one thing but sacrificing my family to help someone else isn’t moral.

Each and every person has an individual responsibility to care for themselves.


87 posted on 04/29/2012 4:13:52 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Iron Munro

“On a national scale, it is this kind of daffy, feel-good thinking that has led to the impending bankruptcy of the nation.”

Spirited: You have confused feel-goodism with a realistic assessment. Unless a person is a conscienceless psychopath then he will in fact have to “harden his heart” in order that he may in any way kill another human being.


88 posted on 04/29/2012 4:16:33 PM PDT by spirited irish
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To: nickcarraway

I’ve met the Neal in this story. Good guy and their group has some other good folks in it.


89 posted on 04/29/2012 4:25:00 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: spirited irish
Unless a person is a conscienceless psychopath then he will in fact have to “harden his heart” in order that he may in any way kill another human being.

Would that derogatory appellation apply to a prepper who decided to "kill" his own child by giving their stored food to a mooching stranger who did nothing at all to prepare for his own well being?


90 posted on 04/29/2012 4:27:25 PM PDT by Iron Munro (If Repub's paid as much attention to Rush Limbaugh as the Dem's do, we wouldn't be in this mess)
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To: Iron Munro; spirited irish

Let me get this straight. If you set aside provisions to prepare against lean times, as people have done for thousands of years, then you are evil.

However, if you choose not to provide for yourself or your family then you are on a higher moral ground.

Is that it?


91 posted on 04/29/2012 4:31:56 PM PDT by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: Graybeard58
"What's the shelf life of unrefigerated insulin? I don't take it but my wife does."

Lawsy, man. Get one of those 6-pack size DC coolers and enough solar array capacity to run it.

Or, if you live anywhere where the temp. gets below freezing in the winter, dig a big-assed hole in the ground, insulate the hell out of it, and put in plastic jugs of frozen water (aka ice). My New England forebears used to cut ice out of ponds and ship it all over the world for food preservation and to last through the year. They had to use sawdust for insulation. Foam insulation works MUCH better.

92 posted on 04/29/2012 4:36:53 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: GladesGuru
"Coming from both an American and a Jewish background, I am aware of the possibilities. I am also not going to become a bar of soap without a fight."

Good on you, bro. It's a shame that so many of your genetic cousins here in America seem unable to grasp the notion. I daresay that those who managed to make it out of Europe ahead of the indigenous soapmakers don't have that blindness. Especially those concentrated at the east end of the Mediterranean. THEY "get it".

93 posted on 04/29/2012 4:47:26 PM PDT by Wonder Warthog
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To: nickcarraway

ok too weird. i just ordered these last night after spending about 4 hours of research. i ordered amoxicillin and ciprofloxacin online from california vetetinary supply. total was about 55 dollars for both. 250 mg 100 pills each.


94 posted on 04/29/2012 5:01:40 PM PDT by Donnafrflorida (Thru HIM all things are possible.)
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To: spirited irish

In response to your thoughtful reply, may I inject a chilling, but perhaps unavoidable thought?

Perhaps, it may be that Paul Johnson was correct when he said that if the American experiment in self government failed, that which would come afterward would be unspeakably worse.

And, “Unspeakable” squats in the White Hut as I type.

Another thought: “The survivors will envy the dead”.

That will be assured if the survivors are unable to force the acceptance of basic civilization upon the Ferals.


95 posted on 04/29/2012 6:01:30 PM PDT by GladesGuru (In a society predicated upon freedom, it is necessary to examine principles."...the public interest)
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To: blam

Gadz! I really dislike body armor. It’s hard for a 50+ year old to run in, and I have trouble finding a carrier that will fit around my belly...............;)


96 posted on 04/29/2012 7:00:25 PM PDT by Sarajevo ( Alcohol does not solve any problems, but then again, neither does milk.)
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To: CitizenUSA
This summer, a water main ruptured in my neighborhood.

Mine had two breaks within a week of the other in the last month. One in front of my home.

Seeing the water in the street I wasted no time getting water in every bucket and basin I had. The idea of not being able to flush the toilet was enough to scramble!!!!!.... Amazing the comfort you have even in something as simple as storing water.....

97 posted on 04/29/2012 8:21:04 PM PDT by caww
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To: blam

That’s very interesting! Good idea for picnics and bar-b-ques as well..... I’m going to do that for my families next get together.


98 posted on 04/29/2012 8:28:33 PM PDT by caww
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To: Iron Munro

You’re welcome.


99 posted on 04/29/2012 11:12:50 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
I was in South Florida in the '80s. I expect post -apocalyptic Oregon to be about the same. :)
100 posted on 04/30/2012 10:43:56 AM PDT by gundog (Help us, Nairobi-Wan Kenobi...you're our only hope.)
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