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Evidence mixed for Zimmerman's self-defense claim [Media Hoping George is Convicted]
AP ^ | 5/18/12 | Kyle Hightower

Posted on 05/18/2012 1:53:50 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper

When George Zimmerman tries to convince a judge or a jury that he shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense, the evidence in the case appears to be a mixed bag.

More than 200 pages of photos and eyewitness accounts released byprosecutors Thursday show he and Martin were in a loud and bloody fight in the moments leading up to the shooting...

(Excerpt) Read more at google.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: georgezimmerman; race; saintskittles; trayvon; trayvonmartin; zimmerman
Oh, how the media wants to see George get punished for defending himself.

George's attacker has already been sainted by Pope Sharpton.

1 posted on 05/18/2012 1:53:54 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: SoFloFreeper

I cannot believe the absolute sick racism in this case. How many blacks have been killed by other blacks since this happened? 100s? 1000s?? Yet a guy who quite possibly could have been defending himself is threatened with death, lynchings by black people all the way up to the POTUS who took sides against him simply because he is hispanic, which BTW is only partially true being that I read his grandmother was black. What kind of President does this anyway? A racist that’s who.


2 posted on 05/18/2012 2:06:24 AM PDT by GrandJediMasterYoda (Some day our schools will teach the difference between "lose" and "loose")
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To: SoFloFreeper
I don't see any mixed evidence, it is clearly a case of self-defense.

Zimmerman had good reason to fear for his life.

3 posted on 05/18/2012 2:15:16 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation:but sin is a reproach to any people)
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To: SoFloFreeper

Hmmm...a Hispanic with more black blood in him than Barack Obama, defending himself is now considered a lily white racist?


4 posted on 05/18/2012 2:18:35 AM PDT by MuttTheHoople (Democrats- Forgetting 9/11 since 9/12/01)
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To: SoFloFreeper

The media is desperately hoping for a riot that will come after an acquittal. They are conveniently ignoring the WITNESSES to Martin pounding on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman calling for help and instead relying on the grieving parents to identify the voice.

The stupid, liberal, hoplophobic, sheeple have to be reminded that Martin was acting SUSPICIOUS, which drew Zimmerman’s attention, then ran for unknown reasons, which raised Zs suspicion even more.

If that is enough to have a police officer make a Terry stop/detention, then it’s enough for a citizen to follow and observe.

Everyone says that Trayvon Martin was doing no wrong. That’s a lie. He was hiding behind someone’s house waiting to ambush Zimmerman upon his return. That’s trespassing. He could have dialed the police but his street thug culture forbids him from doing it. He could have been in the door of his house long before Zimmerman would have caught him but still ran the chance of Zimmerman finding out his address.

So he ambushed this “cracker” and got killed for his trouble and now this isn’t just a fight for Zimmermans exoneration, it’s fight for the right of ALL Americans of self-defense.


5 posted on 05/18/2012 2:21:27 AM PDT by Molon Labbie (Prep. Now. Live Healthy, take your Shooting Iron daily.)
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To: SoFloFreeper
Sometimes the running dogs of the lying Leftist MSM are soooo damn stupid.

AP says when George TRIES to convince the court it was self-defence...

In America it is the prosecution that has to TRY to convince the court that it was murder—AND BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT!!!!

The Lefts’ insane desire to live under Marxist tyranny has them jumping the gun and already trying to pass off their wishful thinking as objective reporting.

6 posted on 05/18/2012 2:26:31 AM PDT by Happy Rain ("Biden and Obama--Dumbo and Down Low.")
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To: SoFloFreeper
"The police concluded that none of this would have happened if George Zimmerman hadn't gotten out of his car," said attorney Ben Crump. "If George Zimmerman hadn't gotten out of his car, they say it was completely avoidable. That is the headline."

If we had not all of us been born in original sin none of this would have happened

By this logic every time anyone gets out of an automobile he waves his legal rights especially his right of self-defense. That he got out of his car is utterly irrelevant to the issues in the case just as the preposterous question, "Did the fact that Martin was black play a role in Zimmerman's actions?"

Assuming arguendo that Zimmerman hated black people-a preposterous supposition considering his heritage and known public record of working with black children-is utterly irrelevant unless one can prove a crime occurred. If no crime occurred there was no race crime. There was no crime of any kind and Zimmerman's state of mind as an alleged racist is of no legal relevance. To assume otherwise is to argue that Zimmerman had a right to shoot and kill a man bashing Zimmerman's head into the cement if the man were white or Hispanic, but not if the man were black. Why? Because Zimmerman was racist. One's legal rights to self-defense do not turn on one's degree of political correctness.

The article, perhaps in some distorted politically correct idea of journalistic "fairness," opines:

"But other evidence supports the contention of Martin's parents that Zimmerman was the aggressor."

What evidence? The first piece of "evidence" produced to support the contention is not evidence at all but opinion:

"The investigator who called for Zimmerman's arrest, Christopher Serino, told prosecutors the fight could have been avoided if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement. He said Zimmerman, after leaving his vehicle, could have identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and talked to him instead of confronting him. The report was written March 13, nearly a month before Zimmerman's eventual arrest."

Zimmerman had an absolute right to get out of his car. It does not affect his right to self-defense one iota. The opinion of the officer in his report is nothing but opinion. It does not describe any violation of law or any action which would vitiate a right of self-defense.

Next, the article cites as support of the case against Zimmerman:

"He said there is no evidence Martin was involved in any criminal activity as he walked from a convenience store to the home of his father's fiance in the same gated community where Zimmerman lived."

So what?

Evidence of Martin's innocence of collateral criminal activity is not proof of Zimmerman's guilt of criminal activity. The author shamefully conflates the two. There is other evidence of Martin being on drugs which the author diminishes but which is certainly relevant and that which I believe the court could not rightly exclude contrary to the assertion the article.

This is evidently the sum total of the "evidence" tending to show Zimmerman's guilt. The author does adduce other factors which perhaps he intended include in his list of "facts" tending to show Zimmerman's guilt. The author says:

"A distraught woman told an investigator that she stays away from Zimmerman because he's racist and because of things he's done to her in the past, but she didn't elaborate on what happened between them."

Can you imagine a judge permitting such testimony as this to be introduced in a criminal trial? Even if true, and even if it shows racial hatred by Zimmerman against blacks, it is utterly irrelevant until a crime is demonstrated. It does not relate to Zimmerman's right of self-defense which exists quite independently of his state of mind. Remember, his right to self-defense is not subjective but objective, did he reasonably believe he was in imminent jeopardy of grave bodily harm? This has nothing whatever to do with whether he hates black people or likes strawberry ice cream.

The author has one more piece of evidence culled from the huge supply of evidence submitted by the prosecution:

"The man, who described his heritage as "Middle Eastern," said that when he first started, many employees didn't like him. Zimmerman seized on this, the employee said, and bullied him."

How did Zimmerman bully him? The article states:

"Zimmerman wanted to "get in" with the clique at work so he exaggerated a Middle Eastern accent when talking about the employee, the man said. The employee told investigators that Zimmerman made reference to terrorists and bombings when talking about him."

Please.

This travesty of justice is engaged with the media in a synergistic travesty of journalism.

If only Zimmerman had not been born in original sin.


7 posted on 05/18/2012 2:35:59 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: SoFloFreeper

I never rely on anything from the Associated Press—just about the worst wheel grinding “news” organization there is.


8 posted on 05/18/2012 2:45:30 AM PDT by Misterioso (I voted Republican all my life and all I got was a communist for president.)
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To: nathanbedford

“This travesty of justice is engaged with the media in a synergistic travesty of journalism.”

The Third Reich did the same to Jews.

Holder’s dismissal of the New Black Pamper voter intimidation case is state-sponsored racism at the highest level of government.

When a country’s government teams up with its media to promote a nefarious agenda, history shows that very bad things happen to multitudes of innocent people.

What would Dietrich Bonhoeffer do?


9 posted on 05/18/2012 2:53:31 AM PDT by MikeSteelBe (Austrian Hitler was, as the Halfrican Hitler does.)
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To: SoFloFreeper
Also notice how the media routinely states that Zimmerman had called 911 and been told to not follow Martin. Zimmerman never called 911. He called the police dispatcher as he had been trained to do before becoming a Neighborhood Watch captain. 911 is reserved for EMERGENCIES, not for something like checking out the suspicious behavior of a adolescent acting suspiciously.

I think the media is hoping none of the public is willing to actually look at the evidence and will accept their "executive summary" instead.

10 posted on 05/18/2012 2:53:54 AM PDT by egfowler3 (Heavenly Father is just a prayer away. Call home often.)
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To: MuttTheHoople
On that note, two things.

First, this picture:

Second, a great one-liner summary of this whole case that I saw here (wish I had the original post so I could properly attibute):

What we have here is a brown Democrat shooting and killing a black Democrat, and somehow this is the fault of white Republicans.

The whole narrative that has been attempted here is so screwed up it's unbelievable.

11 posted on 05/18/2012 3:07:02 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: SoFloFreeper
"Oh, how the media wants to see George get punished for defending himself."

The MSM along with Sharpton and other Obama agents intend to cause one. The left sees political advantage to a little death and destruction.

12 posted on 05/18/2012 3:08:07 AM PDT by Truth29
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To: SoFloFreeper
"The media is desperately hoping for a riot that will come after an acquittal. They are conveniently ignoring the WITNESSES to Martin pounding on Zimmerman, and Zimmerman calling for help and instead relying on the grieving parents to identify the voice."

I put the wrong snip in my reply. This is what I was referencing. The left sees political advantaging in causing rioting and the MSM, Sharpton, and other Obama agents will try and cause some bloodshed and destruction to further the inflame and divide political strategy.

13 posted on 05/18/2012 3:13:08 AM PDT by Truth29
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To: SoFloFreeper; mickie; flaglady47; oswegodeee; Chigirl 26; surfer; seenenuf; seekthetruth; ...
I read that Trayvon Martin's mother will speak Sunday at a Baltimore mega-church about "how she's coping with her son's death".

The Baltimore "Empowerment Temple Church" seats 2000. A full house is expected.

You can bet the farm that Mrs. Martin isn't hitting the speaker's circuit around the country for nothing. If she's energetic enough, and she is, this tour can be extremely profitable. She's already copyrighted various embodiments of her son's name. She's striking while the money iron is red hot.

The "Empowerment Temple Church" recently held a "Hoodie Sunday" service, packed with black yutes all wearing dark hoodies. There's a photo of hundreds of hoods packed in the pews wearing their trademark hoodies. Talk about being unsettling and creepy-looking to see this sight in a church interior.

Are "hoodies" now the black males' counterparts of burkhas?

Pretty soon, half our population will be silently gliding along the streets like cloaked, concealed, shrouded zombies clad in costumes straight from a horror movie.

Leni

14 posted on 05/18/2012 3:15:37 AM PDT by MinuteGal
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To: FreedomPoster
What we have here is a brown Democrat shooting and killing a black Democrat, and somehow this is the fault of white Republicans.
I bet this brown Democrat isn't a Democrat anymore, not after the way the white Democrats are trying to lynch him.
15 posted on 05/18/2012 3:28:05 AM PDT by samtheman
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To: SoFloFreeper
Lots of people are mistaking conjecture for evidence.

During an investigation an LEO is likely to have a lot of hunches, but until he can prove them in court he should keep his mouth shut.

16 posted on 05/18/2012 3:34:04 AM PDT by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not a Matter of Opinion)
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To: SoFloFreeper

The first couple sentences in the article are wrong - “When George Zimmerman attempts to convince a judge that he is innocent...”

No - the prosecutor must convince the JURY that he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

George Zimmerman is innocent right now and will be until convicted by a jury of his peers.


17 posted on 05/18/2012 3:35:27 AM PDT by msrngtp2002 (Just my opinion.)
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To: Misterioso
"The police concluded that none of this would have happened if George Zimmerman hadn't gotten out of his car," said attorney Ben Crump. "If George Zimmerman hadn't gotten out of his car, they say it was completely avoidable. That is the headline."

Yeah and "he who (purports) to be looking out for us" O'Reilly had this gold-digging, race-hustler (Crump) on his show a couple of nights ago (for what, the 4th or 5th time?) and was falling all over himself to be "fair and balanced," and let Crump advance this BS while agreeing with his faux narrative and not challenging him very much.

Don't know if Zimmerman's lawyer or parents/family have decided to stay off the radar screen and not make any tv appearances but wonder why neither have appeared on Bill's show to dispute this one-sided smear machine.

Unless that Mooncalf State's Attorney has someone they are not divulging who was an eye witness of the incident (from the get go) this narrative ain't gonna fly and Z will be found not guilty.

18 posted on 05/18/2012 3:36:23 AM PDT by Conservative Vermont Vet (l)
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To: nathanbedford

Great post...if only Tray had not had a craving for Skittles n’Tea and did not leave his house, if only he had waited for the police to get there-oh that’s right, he didn’t call them, if only.....I could go on for hours!

How can you prove what was in someone’s mind? How can they prove that Z was thinking about getting/killing a black man just because he was black?

Because he got out of his car while a black man happened to be in the area and he knew that by getting out of his car, he was provoking the black man and because the black man felt threatened,he would make the black man attack him and that would give him a reason to shoot and kill a black man just because he didn’t like black men?

And then, when he saw the black man was actually a huge 17 year old black child, he wanted to kill him anyway just because the 6ft black child was black?

And because Z planned all of this while opening his car door, he deserved to get beaten up because he was a “white” man hunting down a black “child” and the 6ft+ black child felt threatned?

Like you said, none of this would have happened if Eve had stayed home and hadn’t picked and eaten that darn apple and made Adam eat it; what was she thinking??!!


19 posted on 05/18/2012 3:38:12 AM PDT by homegroan (Veni, Vedi, Velcro....since 1998)
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To: nathanbedford
From the American Heritage Cultural Dictionary:

yellow journalism - Inflammatory, irresponsible reporting by newspapers. The phrase arose during the 1890s, when some American newspapers, particularly those run by William Randolph Hearst, worked to incite hatred of Spain, thereby contributing to the start of the Spanish-American War. Newspapers that practice yellow journalism are called yellow press.

Hate comes from envy. If hate is a thought crime, envy should be also. That way all leftists would be in jail.

20 posted on 05/18/2012 3:39:09 AM PDT by Reeses
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To: Reeses

The guilty here are Sharpton and Jackson.

They have spent their lives going from one place to another to stir racial strife.


21 posted on 05/18/2012 3:49:59 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: Happy Rain

Exactly. The burden of proof is on the prosecutor, not the defendant. I thing the evidence is pretty strong it was self defense. But....even if it were a “mixed bag”, then that leaves room for reasonable doubt.

Saw the CBS evening news last night. They seem to be hanging their hat on the assertion that Zimmerman could have avoided confrontation by staying in his vehicle. Perhaps so, but that is not the basis for a second degree murder charge.


22 posted on 05/18/2012 4:12:35 AM PDT by rbg81
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To: SoFloFreeper
Oh, how the media wants to see George get punished for defending himself.

As do about 90% of blacks I have seen commenting online, and many of their idiot white friends. Just check out a huge thread from ABCNews like THIS ONE on Facebook, and see how blacks are doing the O.J. Shuffle once again. It's all about race, and Zimm is a "murderer" regardless of the evidence. Clicking on the profiles of those whites who agree shows they have a large number of black friends. This is all about race, not justice.

23 posted on 05/18/2012 4:12:52 AM PDT by montag813 (No Amnesty - Enforce the Law! http://www.StandWithArizona.com)
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To: SoFloFreeper

The evidence is mixed? Not from what I’ve seen. What is the AP trying to do? Why do they have to interject their opinion into this matter?


24 posted on 05/18/2012 4:32:20 AM PDT by popdonnelly (Socialism isn't going to work this time, either.)
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To: SoFloFreeper
“The police concluded that none of this would have happened if George Zimmerman hadn't gotten out of his car,” said attorney Ben Crump. “If George Zimmerman hadn't gotten out of his car, they say it was completely avoidable. That is the headline.”

In assigning culpability the justice system does not go to a legal action in a sequence of events and speciously use it to create cause and effect. Rather it finds the action NOT reasonably supportable as an action or response. Oh, wait, EVERYBODY knows that...

25 posted on 05/18/2012 4:51:21 AM PDT by TalBlack ( Evil doesn't have a day job.)
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To: SoFloFreeper
When George Zimmerman tries to convince a judge or a jury that he shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense

George Zimmerman does not have to convince anybody of anything.

The State of Florida has to do the convincing, and that convincing has to meet all the elements of the crime of murder in the second degree, and it has to be convincing BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

It is absolutely incomprehensible to me, staggering, really, that there is a prosecutor anywhere in this country who would take this case to a jury. Once reasonable doubt is introduced into the equation, how could ANYBODY believe that a conviction was possible?

26 posted on 05/18/2012 4:56:27 AM PDT by Jim Noble ("The Germans: At your feet, or at your throat" - Winston Churchill)
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To: SoFloFreeper
When George Zimmerman tries to convince a judge or a jury that he shot Trayvon Martin in self-defense

George Zimmerman does not have to convince anybody of anything.

The State of Florida has to do the convincing, and that convincing has to meet all the elements of the crime of murder in the second degree, and it has to be convincing BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT.

It is absolutely incomprehensible to me, staggering, really, that there is a prosecutor anywhere in this country who would take this case to a jury. Once reasonable doubt is introduced into the equation, how could ANYBODY believe that a conviction was possible?

27 posted on 05/18/2012 4:56:27 AM PDT by Jim Noble ("The Germans: At your feet, or at your throat" - Winston Churchill)
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To: Jim Noble

And it’s also incomprehensible for them to choose 2nd degree murder over manslaughter.

It would be much easier to argue that GZ was negligent rather than malicious.

In the end - that will work in his favor.


28 posted on 05/18/2012 5:03:28 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: fortheDeclaration

“show he and Martin were in a loud and bloody fight”

The evidence shows bloody knuckles on Trayvon and clean knuckles but broken nose, swollen lips, and other injuries on Zimmerman.

Is it a “fight” if all the blows are delivered by only one side ? Or is it a beating ?


29 posted on 05/18/2012 5:03:28 AM PDT by Kellis91789 (The ultimate result of shielding men from the effects of folly is to fill the world with fools.)
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To: Jim Noble

The goal here is to make sure that anybody who defends himself is open to a civil lawsuit in which the thug and the thug’s family make $$$.


30 posted on 05/18/2012 5:07:18 AM PDT by ladyjane
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To: Misterioso

And Kyle Hightower, he could be, well, he could be a Son Of Barack.


31 posted on 05/18/2012 5:11:38 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: TalBlack

“Getting out of one’s car is not a crime. Either is following someone in public. Using a “but for” analysis, why didn’t the officer conclude that had Trayvon not smacked Zimmerman, he would still be alive? That appears to be a far more immediate cause of the shooting than Zimmerman’s getting out of his car.

It’s also an unsupportable theory for criminal liability. How far back do you go? One could say if Zimmerman stayed home that night and didn’t go to the store, Trayvon would be alive. Or if Trayvon had stayed home and not gone to 7-11 that night, he would still be alive. But for a hundred things, Trayvon would be alive. (If only an airline passenger had taken a different plane, he wouldn’t have gone down with the flight. If only a person took a different route to the store, or left home 10 minutes later, he could have avoided a fatal car accident and would still be alive.) They are all true, but they are not a basis for charging a crime.”

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/5/17/221353/149


32 posted on 05/18/2012 5:20:51 AM PDT by ironman
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To: Molon Labbie
I spoke directly to Kyle Hightower.

Quote: "I wrote this piece because it was starting to seem like Zimmerman, that dirty, filthy white racist, is going to get off. I paid to write these types of lies in order to provoke all-out race riots across the USA. When that happens the AP and myself will be sitting pretty with inflammatory photos and false interviews which hopefully will propel this into an all-out race war in which thousands of whites will be killed by good non-racist Black Power freedom fighters!"

"Here at the AP we're well financed by George Soros so we're ready to distort and falsify any story that may lead to bonuses for us. The WH has already confirmed that if the AP is able to inflame a race war in which thousands of whites can be killed, we'll all be invited to the post-election Balls in Washington. We're out to destroy the Tea Party and America, and any white that gets in the AP's way is going to pay with their life!"

33 posted on 05/18/2012 5:39:17 AM PDT by Doc Savage ("I've shot people I like a lot more,...for a lot less!" Raylan Givins)
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To: Jim Noble

Good points.


34 posted on 05/18/2012 5:45:57 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: ironman

It looks like the prosecution’s whole case is going revolve around the suggestion that getting out of his car proves that Zimmerman’s intent was the premeditated killing of Martin. To attempt to prove that they will try to paint Zimmerman as 1. a violent person by nature, 2. a paranoid vigilante, 3. a racist, who was just looking for the opportunity to kill a black person. It is all speculative and circumstantial at best.


35 posted on 05/18/2012 5:50:16 AM PDT by Ironfocus (Unseat the Looter-in-Chief)
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To: GrandJediMasterYoda

It’s all about the money. No more, no less. Money.


36 posted on 05/18/2012 7:27:50 AM PDT by Jaded (Really? Seriously?)
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To: SoFloFreeper

Self empowered little people (a nation’s targeted natives) are not desired by global elitist ruler wannabes. Look at Britian to see how they make them helpless and then permit the barbarians to rape and enslave their children without objection.


37 posted on 05/18/2012 8:03:54 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: FreedomPoster

Political correctness: what is true is false and what is false is true. What is good is evil and what is evil is good.


38 posted on 05/18/2012 8:05:57 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: Jaded
It’s all about the money. No more, no less. Money.

Time is money. And now justice is money! Who knew?

J = mc2 where m is money and c is the current street price of crack.

39 posted on 05/18/2012 9:09:00 AM PDT by Reeses
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To: MuttTheHoople

As far as I know, Obama is half black, Zimmerman is not, we don’t know how black his great grandfather was but if he were 100% it still isn’t the same.

Zimmerman might be only 50% white, like Obama, but I haven’t seen the details on his mother.


40 posted on 05/18/2012 9:19:05 AM PDT by ansel12 (When immutable definition of Bible marriage of One Man, One Woman, is in jeopardy, call the Mormon.)
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To: SoFloFreeper

Being sucker punched and attacked by a stranger on the street is getting into a fight now?

A Laura Zimmerman attacked on the street in this manner would have been described as “she and Martin were in a loud and bloody fight in the moments leading up to the shooting.”? I doubt it.


41 posted on 05/18/2012 9:29:54 AM PDT by ansel12 (When immutable definition of Bible marriage of One Man, One Woman, is in jeopardy, call the Mormon.)
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To: Kellis91789

Good point!


42 posted on 05/18/2012 11:48:02 AM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation:but sin is a reproach to any people)
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To: Jim Noble
George Zimmerman does not have to convince anybody of anything.

I agree with most of your points, but self-defense is an affirmative defense, so he actually does need to prove it. Not to the same evidentiary burden as the prosecution must meet, but he does have to make the case.

43 posted on 05/19/2012 3:14:20 PM PDT by PhatHead
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