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Trayvon Martin’s death was ‘ultimately avoidable’: Florida police report
NY DAILY NEWS ^ | 5/18/12 | ALIYAH SHAHID

Posted on 05/18/2012 5:58:15 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper

Trayvon Martin's death was “avoidable.”

That’s the conclusion of a new police report on the unarmed teen’s killing at the hands of George Zimmerman in Sanford, Fla.

"The encounter between George Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin was ultimately avoidable by Zimmerman, if Zimmerman had remained in his vehicle and awaited the arrival of law enforcement, or conversely, if he had identified himself to Martin as a concerned citizen and initiated dialog in an effort to dispel each party's concern," the document by Sanford, Fla. Police said.

(Excerpt) Read more at nydailynews.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: georgezimmerman; race; trayvon; trayvonmartin; zimmerman
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To: BilLies
If Trayvon’s mother had moved to HAWAII before he was born.....

But then he wouldn't have a birth certificate.


151 posted on 05/18/2012 9:45:51 AM PDT by Iron Munro (If you want total security, go to prison. The only thing lacking is freedom - Dwight D. Eisenhower)
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To: wtc911

You say that you have real evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman -— I say that you are not being truthful.”””

I sincerely hope that you are never attacked by anyone & that IF you are the survivor & the perp is dead that you have to explain your way out of the mess.


152 posted on 05/18/2012 9:46:20 AM PDT by ridesthemiles
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To: GOYAKLA

Coroners report says 71” and 158 lbs if I recall correctly.


153 posted on 05/18/2012 9:46:41 AM PDT by Ironfocus (Unseat the Looter-in-Chief)
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To: Tublecane
Sorry but all you state is evidence that there was a fight and that Zimmerman was losing. If you have actual evidence that Martin started the fight then please post it.

As for Zimmerman's statement...I don't believe it any more than I would have believed Martin's statement had he ended up the one still living. It is self-serving and, without any neutral corroborating statements, should be seen as such.

154 posted on 05/18/2012 9:48:23 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: Ironfocus

Thanks, for your reply.
Stay safe and have a great life!


155 posted on 05/18/2012 9:51:25 AM PDT by GOYAKLA (Recall/ Impeachment Day, November 6, 2012. FUBO, same for RINOs)
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To: ExTxMarine
Yep, all that evidence is exactly what I mean...it shows nothing except that there was a fight and Zimmerman was losing. You say you were a Marine, did you ever see anybody start a fight then get his ass kicked? I have plenty of times.

If you have real evidence that proves who started the fight then please post it....I'll check back later for it.

156 posted on 05/18/2012 9:51:31 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: ridesthemiles

Thanks for the kind thoughts.


157 posted on 05/18/2012 9:52:57 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: wtc911

“Zimmerman and Martin, either by design of one or my pure bad luck for both of them, find themselves face to face. Martin is angry at being followed. Zimmerman is intimidated and either reaches for or shows the gun. If this happened (and it is as likely as any scenario) then Martin had every right to beat the stalker with the gun into submission.

My thinking on this is that Zimmerman is a jerk who got in over his head and had to shoot his way out.”

You are free to think that, just as others are free to speculate that Martin was a thug on the path to a life of crime. Neither are supported by facts. And here’s the important part, the state is not going to be able to argue your case. Maybe they can spin a story in the closing argument, but they won’t be able to demonstrate Zimmerman, jerk or no, started it in the manner you postit.

Notice that from what we’ve learned in the affadivit, various comments, police reports, and the evidence nothing says they’re going to prove at trial that Zimmerman threatened Martin by reaching for or pulling his gun. Had he done so, yes, obviously Martin would be free to defend himself. As it is, they’re arguing Zimmerman started the fight by following and confronting Martin earlier, and ultimately by getting our of his truck after a non-cop didn’t order him not to.

They don’t add that extra little bit of Zimmerman doing something to excuse Martin’s violence after they run into eachother. Because there’s no evidence for it, only your speculation based on what a jerk you think Zimmerman is. Why you’re allowed to assume Zimmerman started it without evidence but others aren’t allowed to do the same for Martin is beyond me. But it doesn’t matter. The trial’s the thing now, and in that world they have to prove Zimmerman started it and had a depraved mindset to convict on murder 2.


158 posted on 05/18/2012 9:55:25 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: wtc911
There is no evidence that Martin did anything illegal or improper in this episode.

BZZZZT. Wrong

Martin had THC in his system, so you are completely wrong in your claim. He was stoned, that is illegal and it was in his system during this episode. Care to retract the above claim?

159 posted on 05/18/2012 9:56:40 AM PDT by BlueMondaySkipper (Involuntarily subsidizing the parasite class since 1981)
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To: wtc911
If any of you have any direct link to a reliable source that proves or even states that Martin (who had run away) attacked Zimmerman (who got out of his car to follow) ---- then post it.

Do you mean something like this at The Blaze?

Report: Witness Says Trayvon Martin Attacked George Zimmerman

March 24, 2012

A new witness to the Trayvon Martin shooting has come forward, claiming the Florida teen did in fact attack neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, according to media reports.

Zimmerman has said he shot the 17-year-old in self-defense, though Martin was reportedly carrying only a bag of Skittles and an iced tea when he was killed. Despite a loud national outcry, Zimmerman has not been arrested or charged in Martin’s death.

According to Tampa Bay Fox affiliate WTVT-TV, what the witness says he saw could bolster Zimmerman’s claim that he shot Martin in self-defense:

“The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: ‘help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,” he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as “John,” and didn’t not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman’s claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

“When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point,” John said.

On Friday night, Zimmerman attorney Craig Sonner appeared on CNN’s “Anderson Cooper 360” and said he client sustained a broken nose and a head laceration on the night of the incident.

“His nose was broken, he sustained injury to his nose and on the back of his head he sustained a cut that was serious enough that probably should have had stitches…it was an injury that was done by Trayvon Martin,” Sonner said.


160 posted on 05/18/2012 10:00:13 AM PDT by Iron Munro (If you want total security, go to prison. The only thing lacking is freedom - Dwight D. Eisenhower)
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To: wtc911; SoFloFreeper

Hmmm, according to police and ME reports, skittle boy’s knuckles are all mashed up and then we have Zimmerman’s face all mashed up.

Did Zimmerman decide to assault skittle boy’s knuckles with his face?


161 posted on 05/18/2012 10:02:51 AM PDT by SZonian (Throwing our allegiances to political party's in the long run gave away our liberty.)
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To: wtc911
As for Zimmerman's statement...I don't believe it...

So you believe some of Zimmerman's statement(s), but not all of them. All of his statements are self-supporting, but let's ignore the FACT that the evidence supports his statements. All of Zimmerman's wounds would be consistent with being sucker punched and attacked.

Your suggestion that this could have also occurred had Zimmerman already brandished his weapon is simply preposterous. So, Zimmerman is brandishing or simply showing that he is armed, you speculate that Martin is going to punch him and then start punching and beating his head on the ground (eye witness testimony), INSTEAD of going directly for the weapon in a effort to disarm him? That is completely devoid of any kind of reality!
162 posted on 05/18/2012 10:06:16 AM PDT by ExTxMarine (PRAYER: It's the only HOPE for real CHANGE in America!)
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To: SZonian

Hmmmm...please post a link to any reliable witness who saw Martin start the fight. Without one your post is speculation.


163 posted on 05/18/2012 10:08:24 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: Iron Munro
Come on, "John"? Really?

Show me where in John's statement he says that he saw the beginning of the fight.

Here's a little help...he doesn't.

164 posted on 05/18/2012 10:10:50 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: ExTxMarine

“then I think Zimmerman would have been arrested on the night of the incident. Since he would have failed to follow the rules and standards of the neighborhood watch program - no guns allowed”

Those are just rules, though, right? I don’t assume it’s illegal for neighborhood watchmen to carry weapons. Breaking the rules oughtn’t to remove your right to self-defense. I suppose it could tip the scales in favor of supposing you were out looking for trouble and therefore probably started the fight. But then the preponderance of evidence should also show that, and not in the manner that Zimmerman leaving his car is pretended to prove he started it.

What I’m saying is, it would only be one out of many bits of evidence. After all, don’t vigilantes get to defend themselves, too, so long as others attack them? Even if they’re out looking for a fight, I mean, and through discipline restrict themselves to waiting for a fight to come to them. Or is that a form of entrapment?


165 posted on 05/18/2012 10:12:45 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: wtc911
Yep, all that evidence is exactly what I mean...it shows nothing except that there was a fight and Zimmerman was losing.

This is where you are WRONG!. This evidence shows that Zimmerman never put a finger on Martin except in a DEFENSIVE manner. Therefore, Zimmerman was the DEFENDANT and Martin was the ATTACKER.

Oh, now I get it, Zimmerman must have said a "dirty word", which so offended the 12-year old prepubescent, Skittles-toting toddler that he then punched Zimmerman. Therefore, it was Zimmerman's fault. I NOW understand you way of thinking.
166 posted on 05/18/2012 10:13:24 AM PDT by ExTxMarine (PRAYER: It's the only HOPE for real CHANGE in America!)
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To: ExTxMarine

Zimmerman’s brother said that Zimmerman said they were struggling for the gun. And, you avoided the question...did you ever see anybody start a fight and then get his ass kicked? It’s simple...either yes or no will suffice.


167 posted on 05/18/2012 10:14:12 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: dirtboy; wtc911
I think he was a NYC cop, which would explain his attitude toward citizens self-policing their nieghborhoods.

Anyone who doesn't cower behind the curtains and let the "professionals" handle it is a "macho fool."

Add in his pathological inability to admit, "hey, I was wrong," and he's not hard to figure out at all.

168 posted on 05/18/2012 10:15:59 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: ExTxMarine
This evidence shows that Zimmerman never put a finger on Martin except in a DEFENSIVE manner

__________________________

Really? It shows that he never grabbed or pushed or punched in the chest...none of which would leave a mark on Zimmerman or Martin?,P>

It shows that he didn't show the gun or reach for it?

Please explain in detail (AND WITHOUT SHOUTING) exactly how the evidence shows this.

169 posted on 05/18/2012 10:17:59 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: Trailerpark Badass
Add in his pathological inability to admit, "hey, I was wrong,"

_______________________________

Hey, trailer park badass - post a link proving Martin attacked Zimmerman and I'll say "sure, absolutely I was wrong". Go ahead...post it.

170 posted on 05/18/2012 10:20:39 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: wtc911

Zimmerman himself also told police that Martin saw his gun and went for the weapon. At which time they struggled and he shot Martin.

And yes, I have seen someone start a fight and then lose. I am currently involved in such a thing on a blog, where this guy, completely devoid of reality, started speculating things which do not match the evidence. He is losing the fight, but doesn’t even realize it - it is almost sad.


171 posted on 05/18/2012 10:21:21 AM PDT by ExTxMarine (PRAYER: It's the only HOPE for real CHANGE in America!)
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To: BlueMondaySkipper
Martin had THC in his system, so you are completely wrong in your claim. He was stoned.

_________________________________

THC lingers in the system for days in the occasional user and for weeks in the habitual user. Trace amounts in the system do not mean that the person was stoned. It means that at sometime in the past days or weeks he smoked.

172 posted on 05/18/2012 10:23:54 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: kidd
The police report in the article is way out of line for the speculation provided.

I chose this line to highlight - it backs my outrage. That said, I could have chosen any line you wrote - highlighted it - and agreed with it. You're good - realistic and knowledgeable. I assume you've had experience in law enforcement and that you're a good person. Thanks for sharing.

173 posted on 05/18/2012 10:24:29 AM PDT by GOPJ ( "A Dog In Every Pot" - freeper ETL)
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To: wtc911

“Sorry but all you state is evidence that there was a fight and that Zimmerman was losing”

I’m sorry if you’re not aware that analysis of wounds can be used to suggest which party was the attacker and which defended themselves, and that this is considered evidence. But that’s the case, and if Zimmerman was the attacker you would expect to see different wounds on himself and Martin. The eye witness testimony is less robust, but it does show that at some point Martin was on top of Zimmerman, as Zimmerman said, and that at some point Martin turned into the aggressor if he wasn’t to begin with.

If Zimmerman was losing a fight he started, as you and Zimmerman agree he eventually was, he would have to have been losing from the very beginning. As in, he didn’t get in any blows, or any blows of great consequence, at all. Which is possible, but again, we’re only looking for evidence that Martin started it, not absolute proof.

You are correct to assert nothing proves beyond a reasonable doubt Martin was the attacker. But I’m not seeking to do so, and all you asked for was evidence Martin was the attacker. Well, there you go.


174 posted on 05/18/2012 10:25:23 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: ExTxMarine
And yes, I have seen someone start a fight and then lose.

_____________________________

Then tell us exactly how you know for a fact that this is not what happened, especially given the fact that Zimmerman was pro-active (if not aggressive) in following Martin and Martin had, according to Zimmerman himself, tried to avoid contact by running away.

175 posted on 05/18/2012 10:27:16 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: wtc911

“As for Zimmerman’s statement...I don’t believe it any more than I would have believed Martin’s statement had he ended up the one still living. It is self-serving and, without any neutral corroborating statements, should be seen as such”

Ah, but you must know, I’m sure, the way these things are used is to test them against the evidence. If the defendant’s comments and testimony don’t jive with the evidence it doesn’t automatically mean he’s guilty, nor does it mean he’s innocent if they do. But his statements lining up with the evidence can in itself be treated as evidence of his innocence. And I’m not aware of one instance in which Zimmerman’s account of events is contradicted by the police report, the 9-11 tape, the medical evidence, eye witness testimony, etc.

Of course, one reason his story isn’t contradicted by what we know of who started the fight is that we don’t have any direct, inarguable evidence of who started it. But that doesn’t mean his statements fitting with the known evidence isn’t itself evidence.


176 posted on 05/18/2012 10:30:25 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane
I’m sorry if you’re not aware that analysis of wounds can be used to suggest which party was the attacker and which defended themselves, and that this is considered evidence.

__________________________________

Please show where, in law, a suggestion is evidence.

The point is a simple one. There are many freepers swearing that Martin attacked Zimmerman and getting truly upset when asked for proof. Regardless of how upset they get, none can provide proof beyond 'suggestions'.

177 posted on 05/18/2012 10:32:11 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: BlueMondaySkipper

“Martin had THC in his system, so you are completely wrong in your claim. He was stoned, that is illegal and it was in his system during this episode. Care to retract the above claim?”

Well, the previous poster made a claim about Martin’s actions “in this episode.” THC, or the remnants thereof, stay in your body for a while. I’m not sure we’ve been given a time frame for what they found in Martin, but presumably they won’t be able to determine whether he was high at the time of the attack, or had gotten high at some point prior.


178 posted on 05/18/2012 10:33:25 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: ExTxMarine
He is losing the fight, but doesn’t even realize it - it is almost sad.

It is not ALMOST sad. It is very sad, and pathetic. You should have some mercy on the weak minded. What you are doing is like trying to get a liberal to admit Obama is a failure. It's simply pointless. There are none so blind, as those who will not see.
179 posted on 05/18/2012 10:33:47 AM PDT by ZX12R (FUBO GTFO 2012 !)
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To: Tublecane

The court will consider his statement to be self-serving. The SC has declared that it is assumed that anybody will lie to mitigate responsibility or punishment. I do not take his statement as fully truthful.


180 posted on 05/18/2012 10:36:05 AM PDT by wtc911 (Amigo - you've been had.)
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To: wtc911

“If Zimmerman was losing a fight he started, as you and Zimmerman agree he eventually was”

Was losing, I mean, not that he started it. Sorry if that was worded incorrectly.


181 posted on 05/18/2012 10:38:44 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: wtc911

“Then tell us exactly how you know for a fact that this is not what happened”

You keep moving the goal lines. First it’s show me evidence Martin started the fight, then it’s prove it to me. First it’s I know Zimmerman is a jerk and started the fight by getting out of his truck, following a fleeing Martin, then brandishing his weapon. Then you’re the disinterested observer who doesn’t know anything for sure, and is only looking for other people to justify their versions of events beyond a reasonable doubt.

At long last, there is evidence Martin started it, though not direct evidence and not evidence meeting the reasonable doubt standard. There is no evidence Zimmerman started it, beyond him “following” and “confronting” Martin (whatever that means) and not staying in his truck to wait for the police. And that is no evidence at all.


182 posted on 05/18/2012 10:44:04 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: Tublecane

I agree that this whole prosecution is unjust, from the evidence we have seen.

When you “stand your ground” and shoot an aggressor, you have to be darn sure you did not pick the fight. You don’t get to kill the guy just because he is winning the fight you engaged in. That is all the prosecutors have - to try and make it look like (racist, angry, mean, awful) Zimmerman was picking a fight by “stalking” little skittles boy until Zimmerman got the fight he was egging (it was skittles boy who was standing his ground againt the big bad stalker man) on so he could shoot Martin.

That does not match the testimony and evidence, but they will milk emotions and tar and feather the racist whitey, er, I mean the American mutt (hispanic, white, black). Unless the prosecutor has evidence we don’t know about, this is a political show trial steeped in race hate and hatred of the second amendment’s right to self defense.


183 posted on 05/18/2012 10:49:41 AM PDT by SaraJohnson
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To: wtc911

“Please show where, in law, a suggestion is evidence.”

Suggested is just the word I chose to describe it. Like all evidence, it doesn’t absolutely establish anything, but rather only leads reasonable people to believe something. I don’t have to show you where interpreting wounds to determine who attacked and who defended themselves has been used as evidence because it’s to common to require proof. That’d be like asking me to show where, in law, what is suggested by eye witness testimony is evidence.

“There are many freepers swearing that Martin attacked Zimmerman and getting truly upset when asked for proof. Regardless of how upset they get, none can provide proof beyond ‘suggestions’”

That’s not the point, really. You seem to get upset, too. The point is that when asked for evidence, no matter how pissy they are or how often they accuse you of being a crypto-leftist, they can produce it. And that’s all evidence often is, by the way, a “suggestion.” A suggestion that, like I said, would lead reasonable people to a certain conclusion. But a suggestion nonetheless.


184 posted on 05/18/2012 10:51:08 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: SoCal Pubbie
Has any intrepid reporter looked into exactly what this community’s Neighborhood Watch policy is? What the written guidelines of action are, if any?

The Sanford Neighborhood Watch guidelines have been pretty widely published, but to be honest, they're not really relevant. Neighborhood Watch is not a job. It's established that he was carrying a gun legally, and that "following" is also legal. And aside from all that, Zimmerman was not on a "neighborhood watch" patrol, he was on a personal errand (to Target, I believe.)

185 posted on 05/18/2012 10:52:41 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: wtc911

:: I have no prejudice toward Zimmerman at all. ::

Here, let me help you out...

“Zimmerman was a jerk...”
“One was a macho fool...”

To echo your thread-mantra: If you have actual evidence that Zimmerman is a “jerk” and a “macho fool” then post it. If you don’t then you have pre-judged Zimmerman and by extension are “prejudiced”.

Get it?


186 posted on 05/18/2012 10:53:04 AM PDT by Cletus.D.Yokel (Catastrophic Anthropogenic Climate Alterations - The acronym explains the science.)
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To: wtc911

“The court will consider his statement to be self-serving.”

The jury may find it persuasive, especially if it never changed and jives with known facts. That’s why they have defendants testify, when they do: because their stories can be persuasive.

“The SC has declared that it is assumed that anybody will lie to mitigate responsibility or punishment”

Well, duh. No one needs men in black to tell them that. The point is that Zimmerman’s account of the events is important to establish his credibility, and that’s paramount in a case like this where the defense won’t merely deflect the prosecution but will assert a positive case in the form of Zimmerman being immune due to his having killed in self-defense.


187 posted on 05/18/2012 10:56:44 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: wtc911
"You can have all the prejudiced opinions you want but you can't have your own facts. And the facts that we know are that Zimmerman followed and Martin avoided. "

You aren't avoiding someone if you deliberately approach a person, punch them in the face, knock them down, straddle them, and repeatedly smash their head onto the ground.

188 posted on 05/18/2012 10:58:04 AM PDT by mass55th (Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway...John Wayne)
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To: GOPJ

My thoughts too. We live in BRA where blacks can say any kind of crazy arse *hit and it will fly as gospel truth in the mainstream media. But the truth comes out in the comments section where the comments tend to be to the right of FR (if there is a comments section)


189 posted on 05/18/2012 10:58:31 AM PDT by dennisw
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To: wtc911
Really? It shows that he never grabbed or pushed or punched in the chest...none of which would leave a mark on Zimmerman or Martin?

Yes, it actually shows that Zimmerman never grabbed or punched Martin in the chest, because those would have left a mark on Martin.

I have done many investigations, some of which included deaths, and simply stated, the evidence in this case speaks for itself. The fact that Zimmerman's demeanor to the police during their investigation and his never changing story is proof that his statements are truthful. People who are lying will continually "add to their story," in an attempt to bolster their last, newly revealed detail. The fact that Zimmerman was only questioned for a few hours and not initially detained on the night of the incident says that he did not change his statements throughout the questioning - this is a technique which investigators use to catch people who are lying. And I guarantee that this is the type of proof which the defense will use in court to clear Zimmerman.

If you fail to see these as facts, then I really can't help you understand them any better. Thanks for the conversation.
190 posted on 05/18/2012 10:59:07 AM PDT by ExTxMarine (PRAYER: It's the only HOPE for real CHANGE in America!)
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To: All

.

There is No Evidence of a Fight - there is Evidence of an ATTACK

There is No evidence that Trayvon was ever hit, scratched, or even had his hair pulled.

One person attacked an unsuspecting person - and that person followed the Law in using Deadly force to prevent imminent Great Bodily Harm.

Trayvon jumped him - and was in Control.

..

.


191 posted on 05/18/2012 11:00:43 AM PDT by AnthonySoprano
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To: wtc911
I'm well aware of the lingering og THC in the body. If he had THC in his system he was indeed stoned, at least he was at one point, which fits perfectly with my claim. I never claimed he was stoned at that particular instant. THC in your system is illegal so my claim is correct and your claim he did not do anything illegal is incorrect.

In addition, the autopsy found the bullt hole. along with powder burns as well as trauma to Martin's knuckles. No facial injury to indicate Zimmerman hit him first as per your claim.

Even if it were the case that Zimmerman started the fight, once Martin had him on the ground and Zimmerman was calling for help, Martin would have the obligation to cease the pummelling. If he didn't Zimmerman, would be perfectly within his right to shoot him since he could not retreat with Martin on top of him.

192 posted on 05/18/2012 11:02:42 AM PDT by BlueMondaySkipper (Involuntarily subsidizing the parasite class since 1981)
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To: SoFloFreeper
While the Zimmerman/Martin ‘white’ on black killing is covered 24/7 on the MSM with an outpouring of rage and charges of a racial hate crime, where is the concern- where is the rage about the home invasion, torture, beating, rape and murder of the elderly white couple by a gang of feral blacks in Tulsa, Oklahoma just a few months ago?

The 90 year old war veteran husband was beaten and his jaw broken. He was shot in the face numerous times with a BB gun and sent to the hospital in critical condition.

The 85 year old partially blind wife was RAPED and then BEATEN TO DEATH.

Can you just imagine the pain, the humiliation, the horror that dear old lady experienced being gang raped by that pack of feral animals?

(the autopsy states she was raped. Don’t think all of these animals didn’t all participate)

And can you imagine the pain, the horror of that dear old husband having to witness this?

Mr. Strait died from his injuries last week.

There’s a lot more involved here than a home invasion and robbery.

WHERE ARE THE CHARGES OF A RACIAL HATE CRIME??

90 year old husband’s jaw broken and shot in face with a BB gun numerous times?

85 wife year old semi blind wife RAPED and BEATEN to death??

Why does it take a foreign press to enlighten America as to this henious crime?

WHERE IS THE NATIONAL OUTRAGE?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2117695/Brutal-home-invasion-Oklahoma-couple-ends-65-year-romance-meeting-blind-date.html

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Have they caught the rest of the gang of feral blacks who raped, tortured and murdered this elderly woman? Are they even looking? Not a word about it in the media.

193 posted on 05/18/2012 11:03:59 AM PDT by patriot08 (TEXAS GAL- born and bred and proud of it!)
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To: SaraJohnson

“When you ‘stand your ground’ and shoot an aggressor, you have to be darn sure you did not pick the fight.”

Small point, but since so much has been flung back and forth about Stand Your Ground in this case, I thought I’d point out that if Martin was pinning Zimmerman to the ground as he and an eye witness testified, he had no ability to retreat and therefore can assert regular-old self-defense as opposed to Stand Your Ground self-defense.

“You don’t get to kill the guy just because he is winning the fight you engaged in.”

Yes you do, if the other guy attacked you. You don’t mean a “figh you engaged in”; you mean a fight you started. And in order for you not to be able to assert self-defense, the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt you started it. I don’t think they can do so in this case. And certainly they can’t prove the depraved mind required for murder 2.

“That is all the prosecutors have - to try and make it look like (racist, angry, mean, awful) Zimmerman was picking a fight by ‘stalking’ little skittles boy until Zimmerman got the fight he was egging (it was skittles boy who was standing his ground againt the big bad stalker man) on so he could shoot Martin.”

Yes, you can make following sound more ominous by calling it “stalking” and confronting sinister by dubbing it egging on a fight. But following and confronting aren’t illegal, and you’ll need more than words to use them to show Zimmerman had no right to self-defense.

“Unless the prosecutor has evidence we don’t know about, this is a political show trial steeped in race hate and hatred of the second amendment’s right to self defense.”

I want to believe there’s something more, and that prosecuters aren’t willing to throw their careers away and open themselves up to malicious prosecution charges for the sake of politics. But it’s happened before, and perhaps we have a new Nifong.


194 posted on 05/18/2012 11:04:55 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: wtc911
LOL, "link?"

Like you say, there are only two possibilities. If one can be discounted, the other is proved.

One would have to believe that the CCW-carrying neighborhood watch captain, having given his name and location to the police, knowing the police were on their way, with a gun in his waistband, would throw the first punch against the suspcicious person he had been observing. Sorry, but that's preposterous, compared to the only other alternative.

Do you have a CCW permit? Do you carry concealed? Having done so for 25 years, I know from my experience and those related to me by others, that doing so makes one approach potential confrontation infinitely more soberly. And every class I've ever attended taught retreat first, and that physical confrontation while armed was to be avoided if at all possible. Whom you call "macho fools" in NYC are called "neighbors" down here where I live, and they don't seem to fit the liberal Yankee stereotype of the hothead with a gun. Your bias against concerned citizens like Zimmerman is obvious enough.

If you don't trust your own experience and judgment enough to pick one of the two ONLY possibilities, that's a You problem.

Were you on the Casey Anthony jury?

195 posted on 05/18/2012 11:04:55 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: wtc911
"Sorry, dude, there is zero evidence that Martin attacked Zimmerman..."

And where's your evidence that he didn't attack Zimmerman? If you've got the video or audio of the incident, or you personally witnessed it, then post it.

196 posted on 05/18/2012 11:09:40 AM PDT by mass55th (Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway...John Wayne)
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To: wtc911
"If you have real evidence then post it. But you won't because there is none. "

The DA in the case chose not to press charges based on the fact that the evidence they had would not lead to a conviction.

197 posted on 05/18/2012 11:12:57 AM PDT by mass55th (Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway...John Wayne)
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To: Tublecane; SaraJohnson
When you “stand your ground” and shoot an aggressor, you have to be darn sure you did not pick the fight. You don’t get to kill the guy just because he is winning the fight you engaged in.

Well, it isn't really that cut and dried, either. There is a principle of proportionality, too. If I use "fighting words" to provoke you, or grab your elbow to keep you from walking away, then you hit me over the head with a brick, I most certainly have not forfeited my right to self-defense - with or without "stand your ground" laws.

In this case, you could substitute "hit with a brick" from my hypothetical to "punched in face, knocked head on pavement and pinned on ground to pummel."

We know from the documents released, and from sworn testimony by the police, that there is no evidence Zimmerman started anything. Still, to satisfy the speculations of some on this thread, let's suppose he did: what level of provocation would he need to have engaged in to forfeit his own right to self defense against the actions of Martin, which now seem to be pretty well established?

I can only think of one possible level of provocation by Zimmerman which would not leave a mark - brandishing his gun. And I am certain that is why the prosecution earlier implied that Zimmerman did just that. However, there is absolutely no evidence to support this theory.

198 posted on 05/18/2012 11:16:57 AM PDT by PhatHead
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To: Trailerpark Badass

“Were you on the Casey Anthony jury?”

I wouldn’t go there. If anything the Casey Anthony defense should be a model for Zimmerman. The state in that case couldn’t prove its case, merely relying on what was not a crime—i.e. failing to report the kid’s disappearance—to hint that she was the one who killed her. Well, Casey shutting her mouth for a month was far worse than Zimmerman “following” and “confronting” Martin and getting out of his truck. Someone killed Caylee, and I wouldn’t be surprised if it was Casey.

But you can’t convict according to the “someone did it” mindset, nor by the “Martin was unarmed” mindset. Neither adds up to conviction. There was some evidence against Casey, in the form of internet searches, sticker residue, and trunk smells. Nothing to surpass the reasonable doubt bar, as the defense could reasonably posit that she drowned in the pool and Casey’s dad helped her cover it up. Likewise, Zimmerman could have started the fight and resorted to shooting once he was losing. But it also could’ve happened like I think it probably did, i.e. by Martin committing assault by attacking Zimmerman and Zimmerman shooting Martin.


199 posted on 05/18/2012 11:19:23 AM PDT by Tublecane
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To: SoFloFreeper

I haven’t been following this case all that closely. Has anyone established why Martin was even in that neighborhood in the first place?


200 posted on 05/18/2012 11:21:03 AM PDT by kevao
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