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To: Smokin' Joe
I'll just repeat that our current system has failed. People from farmers to urbanites voting themselves money has crashed the system. When the reset comes hopefully we'll have a system where everyone knows where they stand. Having a definite system and definite percentages in the Constitution would be a great reform.

The land will have to be managed. This system of making land so expensive is unnecessary and put everyone in so much debt they can't get out of it. A total reboot is in order.

31 posted on 05/24/2012 5:49:52 PM PDT by Partisan Gunslinger
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To: Partisan Gunslinger
I'll just repeat that our current system has failed.

On this we agree. The problem is that we have so many people here who do not participate. We have some 40,000,000 illegals who either do not pay taxes or who actually manage to remove money from the coffers via various programs.

That needs to stop.

We have 40% of the population (or more) who do not pay income or property taxes, who often either get a check from the government (not including Social Security), or who receive more money back as a refund than they paid in (EITC). We have even more going out in payments for everything from health care to housing to food for the "poor", who receive more in benefits than some of those supporting them.

That needs a serious overhaul, and much of it must stop.

People from farmers to urbanites voting themselves money has crashed the system.

By virtue of numbers alone, urbanites are the ones who can vote themselves what they want. Concessions made to farmers are relatively minor, unless one considers ADM and Cargill and Monsanto "farmers". The little guy really doesn't have much stroke.

That is more of a lobbying problem than farmers voting themselves much of anything, and if you're paying attention, you'll see that it favors the Ag megacorporations and not the family farm.

The land will have to be managed.

Damnit! The land IS managed.

The Government is sitting on half of the acreage west of the Mississippi River. Those private owners do their best to manage their own land, especially those who have owned land and passed it on in their families for multiple generations--because failing to do so will cost them everything. Good stewardship isn't an accident, and if you don't practice it, or if the government won't allow you to do so, sooner or later the land is more expensive to own than the return from owning it. Even those who don't care about the land itself can see a losing venture and will divest themselves of the land in order to cut their losses.

To the untrained eye, land that is "doing nothing" may well be a stand of hardwood timber growing (think trees worth thousands of dollars each, but that takes 100 years), could be cropland with a cover crop that is renewing the nutrients in the soil, can be pasture recovering from grazing or growing the next cutting of hay. Land doesn't sit in stasis, anyway, waiting for humans. Some changes are just more apparent than others.

This system of making land so expensive is unnecessary and put everyone in so much debt they can't get out of it.

First, land is bought and sold on an open market. Nice land (good climate, pretty views, good soil, etc.) will always command a premium, because there is only so much of it, but it is bought and sold on the open market. Demand sets price.

What would you do to change that? Have government control the allocation of land? (Agenda 21?)


Debt is optional. Most land is not so expensive unless it is located in urban areas, particularly nice settings, or contains desirable mineral wealth--it is the structures (the ones you wouldn't tax) which make it so expensive, or the location. But you would tax equally an acre of hardscrabble near desert pasture and a piece of Manhattan riverfront. Nothing equitable about it.

You want land, save your money and buy it. You might have to make some concessions as to location, scenery, etc., based on your budget.

I'd go for this: 10% retail sales tax at the Federal Level on everything except primary housing, health care (including pharmaceuticals), food, and energy used in the home for lighting, heating, and cooking, etc.) Forgat 'Fair Tax' prebates, just don't tax what is necessary to live (food, shelter, water, medicine).

No income tax. (encourage people to make more, then they'll spend it, and that will be taxed.

No land tax.

Excise taxes on motor fuel, limited by law.

Tariffs on imported materials and products we can make here. You want a Japanese car made in Japan, pay the tariff. You'd know the cost up front. 'Trading partners' would be encouraged to further improve the quality of their goods to compete.

That would help return the manufacturing sector to our shores, would stimulate domestic energy and mineral production and would help build an economy less vulnerable to outside tampering.

Of course, this would require the serious downsizing of our Federal Government, the elimination of whole extra-Constitutional Departments, and reducing the scope of the Federal Government back to something far closer to original intent. Significant numbers of people (millions) would be booted off of the Great Teat.

Adding another federal department would not correct the real problems of overspending and overreach, and those who lobby in DC would have to go and deal with the Legislatures of the Several States instead, which would limit their influence more than the current system of swaying a mere 269 votes in DC, votes of people who can perform stock trades based on upcoming legislation and profit handsomely, an activity the rest of us would be jailed for.

I'm all for reducing the federal landholding (ranging in desirability from arctic tundra near ANWR to prime land near Jackson Hole), but taxing that land as if all land is equal isn't going to line up buyers, because not all land is equal. Some will be more productive than the rest, simply because of underlying geology, soil type, drainage, climate, mineral resources, etc. Some will be more desirable than the rest because of location, the view, topography, proximity to waterways, rail lines, highways, and population centers.

That widely desirable land will always command a premium over a patch of North Dakota Prairie with winters down to -40 common, and summers in the triple digits, far removed from navigable water, major highways, and the conveniences of urban centers.

But the bottom line is that government should not have the ability to tax someone off their land. Period. When you consider the ability to arbitrarily raise taxes on that land in order to divest someone of their land, to sell that land to a crony and profit, the door is wide open to corruption. Similarly, tax 'easements', often done in the name of 'economic development' open the door to kickbacks from those who benefit from those easements, commonly at the expense of existing businesses and residents. More corruption. Why create an environment which fosters corruption in government when a knowledge of human nature would indicate the best course is to make corruption as structurally difficult as possible?

I don't think a total reboot is in order, but there are some sweeping changes which need to be made.

Considering the parasite class is significant in size (and I'm NOT including retirees who get Social Security), that will be difficult, at best, but the average productive person is not nearly so well schooled in the means of destruction and mayhem the parasites are, and might not fare as well in situations of widespread civil unrest which sudden sweeping changes would produce.

The results might be far worse than you or anyone can imagine.

The question is one of how to make the transition from the current mess to a better one without crashing an already fragile economy and without discarding the Constitutional concepts which those who have governed this Republic have strayed so far from.

Keep in mind those founders did not have an income tax, used tariffs, and for the most part, ran a balanced budget.

32 posted on 05/25/2012 12:15:19 AM PDT by Smokin' Joe (How often God must weep at humans' folly. Stand fast. God knows what He is doing)
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