Skip to comments.Why It Doesnít Pay To Cooperate With Police
Posted on 05/28/2012 7:23:51 AM PDT by Daffynition
Police officers are trained manipulators. They take classes to learn how to read peoples body language and how to ask open-ended and innocent-sounding questions in order to surreptitiously obtain information they can use against you.
They also have a knowledge of the laws that you dont possess and laws differ from State to State, and even from one jurisdiction in a State to another. Police have also been known to invent laws, place evidence that can be linked to you and twist your words into meaning something you did not intend.
(Excerpt) Read more at personalliberty.com ...
From Charles Kesler, published in the Claremont Review of Books 3/21/10
Can you have a bill, a single law, that is almost 3,000 pages long? In the old days, that would have constituted a whole code of laws. When our founders thought about law, they often thought along the lines of John Locke, who described law as a community’s “settled standing rules, indifferent, and the same to all parties,” emphasizing that to be legitimate a statute must be “received and allowed by common consent to be the standard of right and wrong, and the common measure to decide all controversies” between citizens.
This phonebook-sized law that would control a sixth of the U.S. economy cannot be a law by that definition. If you rummage through the text of, say, the House of Representatives’ version of the bill, you find scores of places where power is delegated to administrative agencies and special boards, which are charged to fill the gaps in the written legislation by promulgating thousands, if not tens of thousands, of new pages of regulations that will then be applied to individual cases. Voters sometimes complain that legislators don’t read the laws they enact. Why would they, in this case? You could read this leviathan until your eyeballs popped out and still not find any “settled, standing rules” or a meaning that is “indifferent, and the same to all parties.”
In fact, that’s the point of such promiscuous laws. They operate not by setting up fences to protect each man’s liberty. They start not from equal rights but from equal (and often unequal) privileges, the favors or benefits that government may bestow on or withhold from its clients. The whole point is to empower government officials, usually unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats, to bless or curse your petitions as they see fit, guided, of course, by their expertness in a law so vast, so intricate, and so capricious that it could justify a hundred different outcomes in the same case. Faster than one might think, a government of equal laws turns into a regime of arbitrary privileges.
A “privilege” is literally a private law. When law ceases to be a common “standard of right and wrong” and a “common measure to decide all controversies,” then the rule of law ceases to be republican and becomes despotic. Freedom itself ceases to be a right and becomes a gift, or the fruit of a corrupt bargain, because in such degraded regimes those who are close to and connected with the ruling class have special privileges.
paging ayn rand. ayn rand, please pick up the white courtesy phone.
Two things stand out:
I think the point of the article is that it is prudent to keep in mind the inherent conflict between your personal interests and the interests of the institution as interpreted by the officers of the police.
It is always and in all situations your duty as an American to consider your own self interest first. This is one of the core things that make America Unique.
In some circumstances it may be in your self interest to cooperate completely with the police.
In other circumstances it may be in your self interest not to cooperate.
And if it is unclear where your self interest lies it is your basic civil right to hire and advocate ( or demand one at public expense).
Maintaining civil order is a core reason we form governments. But to keep a health balance it is necessary for citizens to actively stand up for their interests against them.
Would that things were so simple.
You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in a court of law.
You have the right to speak to an attorney.
If you cannot afford an attorney, one will be appointed for you.
Do you understand these rights as they have been read to you?
AND THEY ALWAY LEAVE OFF
NOTHING you say may be used in your defense.
Reason: Stuff against you and written down by a cop is considered confessional evidence.
Anything you say that is written down by a cop that benefits you is considered hearsay, unless you say it while under oath and in court.
Bottom line: Say nothing to cops, it can never benefit you and can never help you.
I should add. I don’t have a ccw. My weapon is “securely encased” per fl statute. It only needs to be holstered in the glovebox..
“Isn’t this what a Security Guard does; Observe and Report?”
Yes, or worse - an informant to an oppressive government.
“Gort, Klatu birada nicto.”
Years ago (like 35) I did something I wouldn’t do today.
I was living with my mother and brother and going to college. We had a “pool hall” set up in an unconnected garage away from the house. We had an antique Brunswick tournament pool table out there. It made us pretty popular and since it was well away from the main house my mother didn’t much care what we did out there. Late one afternoon someone brought a guy we knew slightly out and then left without him. We hadn’t seen the guy in about a year since he joined the Navy. When we asked him what he was doing there he said he was on leave. A little later he asked if someone would take him to see his mom in Savannah Beach, about 10 miles away. My brother agreed and I said I would go with them just because I had nothing to do. They had all been drinking beer but no one was drunk. I had just come back from class and was completely sober. We loaded up, with one more friend, and headed off to the beach.
We got to Navy friends mom’s house and he told us to wait while he went inside, really he just wanted to borrow money from her. He was not real smart and had forgotten a Savannah Beach cop live across the street from his mom. The cop was off duty and saw him leave his mother’s house. He came back out about ten minutes later and we headed back to Wilmington Island. No sooner did we get back on the main highway than a Savannah Beach Police car came flying up behind us and lit us up. At first we were puzzled because my brother was not speeding. My brother pulled over as another police car came screeching up. They did the whole “armed and dangerous” traffic stop routine and put us in the back of the two cars. None of them would answer our questions as to why they were doing this. The truth came out after we reached the station.
Our acquaintance/friend was not on leave from the Navy, he was AWOL and wanted for questioning in the death of an officer at sea. Was their prime suspect in fact. The police took us one at a time into an interrogation room and tried to make us admit we knew he was AWOL and a murderer. My brother and his street smart (juvi record) buddy said nothing at all. I thought, “I’m a senior in college and smarter than any two of these Keystone cops and innocent to boot so why not talk?” When I started talking they all sat up and started salivating like Pavlov’s dogs. I told them exactly what happened and stuck to that story for over an hour while three of them questioned me.
Finally one Barney Fife walked in with a typed copy of my statement. I read it and found nothing incriminating in it so I signed it, spelling and grammatical errors included. In the end they charged my brother with DUI and me and our other friend with Drunk in an Auto. I said I was sober and how did they determine I was drunk? They said, “By your demeanor”. I said I wanted a Breathalyzer or blood test, which by law they were required to provide, and they said, “Nope, not happening. We know you’ve been drinking” It was a misdemeanor and something like a $30.00 fine so I just paid. Shore Patrol came and got Navy guy a few days later and he was tried for murder. He denied it but he had bragged to buddys on the ship about throwing this officer overboard in the middle of the night in a storm in the north atlantic. He was court martialed and sentenced to time in Leavenworth.
I never heard anything more about my “confession” but I very easily could have ended up as part of that murder trial. Don’t talk to the police. Ever.
Here, this case is still pending; son is trying to get his job back, last I saw. [Pass GO_TO-JAIL and don't collect two hundred dollars.]
Updated: Friday, 07 Jan 2011, 1:15 PM EST
Published : Friday, 07 Jan 2011, 1:10 PM EST
Windsor Locks, Conn. (WTNH) - The father of a Windsor Locks police officer charged in the death of teenager has been charged in the case -- and he is also a police officer on the force.
Sgt. Robert Koistinen, 53, has been charged with hindering prosecution and interfering with an officer. He surrendered to state police this morning and was released after posting a $10,000 bond.
Koistinen's son, Ofc. Michael Koistinen, 24, has already been charged with first and second degree manslaughter, misconduct with a motor vehicle, negligent homicide and attempt to commit tampering with physical evidence. Police say he was off-duty and had been drinking for hours prior to an accident that killed 15-year old Henry Dang back on October 30.
Robert Koistinen, who was on-duty at the time of the accident, was one of the first officers to respond to the scene and was seen on surveillance tape coming and going from the Windsor Locks Police Department several times after the accident; it's believed that his son was inside the waiting vehicle. Michael Koistinen's arrest warrant also notes that Robert Koistinen accompanied his son to the hospital where he blocked an investigating officer from entering his son's hospital room.
State Police are still investigating.
Dang's family has maintained that there was a cover-up in their son's death.
BTW, I dont think the police are there to protect you - they are generally there to file paperwork and look into things (if youre lucky) after the fact. If you find an officer that actually takes the to Protect and Serve motto to heart, then you have found the exception...
Safety versus Scurity.
Safety is about protecting you.
Security is about trying to find your killer.
END the stupid WAR ON DRUGS
That is the basis for most of this
Obey the law doesn’t always work. Ask Mr. Zimmerman about this.
Ask the guy shot down in Costco parking lot.
Ask the many many people who have had cash or vehicles or boats seized without trial.
Ask the hundreds of people subjected to no knock raids based on informants bad info.
Ask the guy who’s dog was shot in his own front yard while playing with a Frisbee when a cop f’d up an address.
Ask 6 million Jews rounded up and cooked. They were following the law. The people rounding up the Jews where following your hallowed law as well.
So let’s all just follow the law.
Congratulations for winning my “Most Clueless Post of the Week” Award.
Police operate with the presumption of guilt. In the court, later you'll have your presumption of innocence they talk about in cheesy cop shows. lol
Police function as meter-maids for cities and municipalities, writing tickets and bringing in the cash with BS like speed limits, seat belt enforcements or DWI/DUI, cell phone use, school zones... Traffic law is especially lucrative. If a "real" crime is committed, say for theft of a $800 item (in most cities) where the culprit isn't evident they will usually not do anything because that costs them money to investigate. For example, a home builder has a an A/C stolen from the side of a home he's building. Police will be worthless and frankly many crimes go unreported because people know the police is worthless, unless you're doing 6 MPH over the speed limit.
Police is not your friend.
or “never talk to cops” unless you have an attorney with you.
PO PO are NOT bumbling amiable beagles, they have become depraved fiends that prey on the populace. NEVER TALK TO THEM. PUT YOUR LAWYER’S NUMBER IN YOUR CELL PHONE.
Meanwhile, if you lie, you go up for Felony Obstruction. Makes for quite an imbalance of power...sufficient to refuse to answer anything but name and DOB w/o counsel. You may think your answers are innocent, but you don't know what they know about the questions.
Don’t even open the door. Say through the glass “what?” If they want to talk, go out through the back door to them. Do not open your door. Oh. Also, there will sometimes be one by the hedge or the tree so you can’t see them.
You forgot 6) Pray that everybody who looks like you also obeys the law.
wow, you in Johnson County?
I've seen cops that are professional and not just stupid meter-maids acting like mega-studs (but with pot guts) like here in the US. Cops in the US act a role, it's as if they have to pretend to be a certain way and they are literally trained to be that way, sadly.
In Germany the cops are actually pretty cool! If someone screws with them, they'll get mean, but they are actually usually all about “common sense, use discretion in enforcement of the law, are unbiased and neutral...” Even at the border when you enter, they don't search granny with the walker like some TSA fool would here in the US (Their border patrol). They actually use their head, while here in the US with our political correctness, awesome police academies that teach them to be idiots, towns that profit from traffic law enforcement... we have created a system that makes cops into idiots with a gun that make money for the hick town, and every police chief that wants to be on some cop show ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KlqNUwkFDE ). Hee haw! They don't try to trap people with words, play silly games, act as meter maids, they're not trained to not think, nor are executing their jobs as if they are on some reality TV show....
It is unfortunate. But we here in the US train our cops to be asses and we usually attract people into that profession that have a propensity to be that way.
“Without law enforcement we would have total anarchy in very short order.”
1. Obey the Law
2. Use common sense
3. Stop immediately
4. Turn that **** off.
5. Be polite
6. Shut the **** up.
7. Get a white friend.
8. Don’t ride with a mad woman.
The cops are behind the war on drugs. Most if not all of them keep part of the drugs they “capture” This leads to having a constant supply and then they trade for favors from women or men for their fix. Trust no “cop”!
Another aspect of American Society that has been decimated by Political Correctness.
A few decades ago, getting into the cops was difficult, because they were severely filtered and tested before even entering the academy.
Then we started the “fairness” BS.
First it was height minimums,
Then it was weight maximums,
Then it was gender,
Then it was background (eg: So, you;’re a “reformed” gangbanger, great, here’s a badge and gun, you will be able to help us by “relating” to the bad guys.)
Then it was “relating better” to ALL the bad guys (Let’s develop a culture of skinheaded, tatooted cops so we’ll “relate” better to the bad guys - never mind that the goodguys will begin to see us in a fearful light.)
Then it was dumbing down the test scores (both knowledge and PSYCHOLOGICAL) in deference to “past discrimination”,
Then it was “We need equivalent firepower”, so let’s give em all automatic weapons and military equipment and training,
Then it was “we mustn’t let the public record our illegal activities while abusing citizens”.
So NOW what we have is an out of control paramilitary organization, operating in a mostly lawless manner, with little if any regard for the Constitution, hell bent on exerting their unlimited powers to abuse, steal and kill the law abiding citizens who even are stupid enough to continue paying their obscene salaries and benefits, while enjoying for the most part, immunity from any retribution by the wronged.
The Good Guys with badges are, like the Producer Class, fast becoming the minority.
My first traffic stop occurred when I was halfway through my first year as a licensed driver (I followed the car in front of me too closely through a left turn thereby supposedly violating an oncoming car’s right of way).
The cop was polite, created a teaching moment about safety first, was professional throughout and even thanked me for my courtesy before he left my carside.
The last couple of times, (both by CHP for expired registration - a crime on the FBI Top Ten no doubt), the officers were snotty, curt and obviously believed they literally “owned” their stretch of the taxpayer funded Interstate Freeway and I was “permitted” to use it only as long as they saw fit, even threatening to impound my vehicle the next time they saw it (a GREAT way to ensure someone unemployed and looking for work would be able to afford the registration sooner /s).
Nowadays, like so many others, I fear every traffic stop or other encounter with ANY LE personnel, (including airport TSA or rent-a-cop at building security checkpoints) because they have, by their own actions, (intentionally, I’m sure) created such an aura about themselves.
What a tragic and shameful turn of events for this ONCE GREAT COUNTRY.
Hi Daffy, I just found this on youtube. It’s a man being harrassed by an officer while he and his friends stand at the end of a driveway of an abortion facility. They are peaceably assembling. The officer goes after one man, and he fully knows his rights and the officer backs down.
The description of the event just below the video is very good. The person who posted this knows a lot about our rights as Americans.
I hope others will view this and appreciate the man who stood up for himself.
It’s okay not to fear the ones you know and know of over a long period of time. However, you’d change your tune after a while in a big city, perhaps in another state, or in a speed trap county, etc.
You shoulda told him, “I was going faster than the deer.”
8. Dont ride with a mad woman.
Some 50 years ago, Dad was stopped for a minor infraction, while Grandma was riding in the back seat with us. She started in with the “why aren’t you out catching criminals, instead of picking on innocent people, and escalated from there. Dad tried, couldn’t shut her up; instead she’d accuse him of having no backbone; to stand up for his rights; then she’d start in on the cop again.
Finally the cop told Dad, “I’m just going to give you a verbal warning; you already have enough troubles!”
Twenty miles later, Grandma was still asking, “what did he mean by that?!?”
I doubt the same scenario would go down the same way now days.
With types like that all one can hope for is that he trips himself because of being an over-confident bully with a badge.
Imagine a state where during trial the jury only decides the facts and the judge gets to decide the law.
Imagine a law that is easy for everyone to violate, like one that forbids disposing of a compact florescent in the household trash but instead requires you to drive 30 miles to an approved disposal facility.
Imagine at trial the jury only being allowed to decide if in fact you either threw the CFL in the trash or not.
Imagine being sent to prison on the felony of improper disposal of a hazardous substance.
Was all that unimaginable? How ‘bout this— imagine being sent to federal prison for importing lobsters in a plastic container rather than a cardboard one.
CASE STUDIES | McNab v. United States
1. Obey the Law.
There are so many laws the average person breaks about 10 before noon without even knowing it.
Lena an Ole were driving down the country road when a cop pulled them over.
Cop: “Sir you ran through that stop sign back there”
Ole: “No I didn’t I came to a complete stop.”
Cop: “Sir I witnessed you going through that stop without slowing down.”
Ole” “No! I came to a complete stop.”
Just then Lena leans over and says”
“Give it up officer. There’s just no arguing with him when he’s drunk”.
Can you have a bill, a single law, that is almost 3,000 pages long? In the old days, that would have constituted a whole code of laws...
Much good sense deleted. When there exists more law than a person can read in a lifetime you no longer have a nation of laws, only power matters. And we all know where power comes from.
There has been a sea change here. Five years ago 50% of the posts would have been from law and order, support your local police types.
I don’t know if they’ve changed or left or just got tired of fighting about it.
When you non-cops criticize cops, remember that everyday they have to deal with the scum of the earth.
By the way, they consider you and me to be the scum of the earth.
The type they have in Mexico and most Banana Republics. They are also corrupt, but they accept small bribes, whereas the U.S. cops try to destroy you and your livelihood and to seize whatever property you have.
That is a really sad story. He’ll pay for it eventually when he stands before God.
On a lighter note...didn’t we chat about Jason Statham movies a while back? I missed his latest “Safe”. It is no longer in theaters here, so I’ll have to rent it on The Dish when it’s available. No matter if the movie wasn’t great, the scenery is always worth the price.
Police are not body guards. They can't BE with you - or any citizen necessarily -when a crime is going down. Maybe they'll be close by - but if someone breaks into your home and they're banging down your bedroom door - there's almost no chance a cop will be standing on your front lawn - ready to deal with the situation.
That's not going to happen.
Your fellow citizens do not have enough money to provide everyone with a full time bodyguard. That doesn't mean you're not being protected - it just means you're not being protected by anything even close to the Secret Service.
But you are protected... Here's some of what you get for your tax dollars: The guy trying to break into your bedroom to get at the safe? If the police catch him - or gather information to tie him to other crimes, they'll arrest him and - with any luck - the guy will go to prison.
While the criminal sitting in prison, he's not committing new crimes - to you or your neighbors. That's one way you're protected. There are other ways too..
I was getting stuff off my chest.
Well, then they should be less antagonistic about us protecting ourselves.
Why do I get the feeling I'm not going to like the answer? If it's who I think you're going to say - it's time to contact your local newspapers or investigative TV reporters.... Come on, Lonesom - let's share.
If a welfare recepient needs a ride to her doctor’s appointment, she complains of a “heart attack” and gets a free ride in da amblance (sic). “You don’t ‘spect me to take no damn bus, do ya?”
Million of illegal aliens routinely entering illegally, while your government offers them prizes, coupons, free healthcare, welfare etc, laugh in your face.
While the criminal sitting in prison, he's not committing new crimes - to you or your neighbors. That's one way you're protected. There are other ways too..There's deterrence. Imprisonment and threat of imprisonment deters crime.