Posted on 06/02/2012 9:32:12 AM PDT by WilliamIII
Who suggested that? We were talking about dogs killing coyotes. That means less predators eating less herbivores.
Ever heard of "nitrogen fixing bacteria"? That's what is in BS that isn't in decaying vegetable matter.
I'll tell you honestly: You have demonstrated no more than a high-school level of understanding about soil biology, and no idea of grass physiology as regards soil formation.
In grasslands, decomposing litter will cause the grass to lose support from forbs, because the allelopathic toxins they release will suppress forb germination. It will also choke the emergence of new leaves in the rainy season. It takes about five years, but eventually the perennial grasses go decadent and die, doing far less in the way of root production for decomposition than they would if they had been grazed or burned. Moreover, without the herbivore intestinal microflora, that decaying detritus won't do squat for soil. In predator mediated systems, that's what happens, and it can lead to desertification in brittle environments.
So far, your posting shows no interest in fact. I've offered photographic evidence of factorial experiments as support. I looked at your FR page, and lo and behold it shows that you've been a banned account. It's little wonder.
Try to stay with the subject that you brought up. Dogs killing predators. When you can do that then you can talk about soil biology.
Sheep are herbivores aren't they?
In predator mediated systems, that's what happens, and it can lead to desertification in brittle environments.
I would think that Anatolian sheep dogs killing predators would mediate that result. YMMV
Dogs aren't. You were talking about dog poop as equivalent to animal remains as fertilizer. You are totally wrong.
I would think that Anatolian sheep dogs killing predators would mediate that result. YMMV
Anatolian sheep dogs are equivalent to predators in terms of their effect on soil.
That is quite an amazing assessment of my knowledge. Considering that I haven't said anything about soil biology other than my agreement with you that animal matter is nutritionally richer than vegetable matter. Was that the mistake I made?
You were talking about the land management skills of Anatolian sheep herders. They have two choices. Live with the predators that will kill a percentage of their herbivore sheep or use dogs to prevent livestock loss. Either way there will be a canine species on the land. With the sheep dogs there will be more herbivores.
Aerobic, Anaerobic or Symbiotic? The last type living in the nodules of plant roots. Most famously leguminaceae family plants.
I live in NYS along the PA border and take my glock 19 with me every time i take my Jack Russell for a walk in the woods,curious how that Canadian family would feel about letting coyotes roam around after thier daughter was ripped limb to limb last year by a pack of coyotes in New Brunswick?
It is always the folks who don’t live with problems that just know exactly how to fix the problem, or advise people there isn’t really a problem... We have that problem with the border issues, the further some folks live from the border the smarter they are about what we need to do.
I recently watched the nature series “Frozen Planet” (Alec Baldwin narrated...ugh) and they had spectacular footage from the air of a wolf pack chasing a herd of Bison.
The pack get a good sized adolescent and was dragging him down until you are wondering if he might even get away when....WHOMP!!...along comes a full sized bull bison who rams the struggling adolescent and takes him out.
The wolves pounce on the now downed kid and the rest of the herd tromps away.
Ooh boy....its a jungle out there, even in the far north.
Years ago, when our Akita was young, he got into a fight w/a pack of coyotes. They work as a tag team. The beagle tried to help by teaming up w/_his_ pack mate, but the dogs were really getting winded and would have lost if Dad hadn’t shown up w/the rifle.
I knew a progressive with a chihuahua who was incensed when a local hunter asked her if he could run his dogs against the coyotes on her land. Of course, she refused. That little sketch of a dog would have been gone in one bite, yapping all the way.
The coyotes have no compassion for anything. They are vermin.
Years ago, when our Akita was young, he got into a fight w/a pack of coyotes. They work as a tag team. The beagle tried to help by teaming up w/_his_ pack mate, but the dogs were really getting winded and would have lost if Dad hadn’t shown up w/the rifle.
I knew a progressive with a chihuahua who was incensed when a local hunter asked her if he could run his dogs against the coyotes on her land. Of course, she refused. That little sketch of a dog would have been gone in one bite, yapping all the way.
The coyotes have no compassion for anything. They are vermin.
Alrighty then.
Maybe one or two...but you get a pack..you can expect more that a few feral cats to go missing.
A few years ago, for whatever strange reason, we had a huge explosion in the coyote population. Accompanied by an infestation of feral hogs, some of which were the size of a small dune buggy (no exaggeration). Things got pretty Dodge City, lol.
A neighbor of mine got two Catahoulas. They made short work of the coyotes. I almost, but not quite, felt sorry for them. I still hear a few in the distance but not close to my house. Although quite capable, they were aided in the feral hog invasion with some human intervention. Most skidaddled back to the river bottom. Still there, but not invasive, so far. Oddly enough those two Catahoulas don't bother domestic pets or people. I call them Dirty and Harry. I think he gave them some sissified names.
Saying that the poop from a dog fed on animal remains was as good for the soil as the combination of turning in the remains directly is not even close to correct. That's why your suggestion that I was in error in discounting the droppings of an Anitolian dog as insignificant is plainly silly. When I offered supporting data, you ignored them.
The fact remains: predatory animals are nothing but a cost to a shepherd. More predators is worse. Dogs don't come free. That's why the shepherds of Anatolia are poor. 1080 baits work, and can be rigged to be highly selective for canine predators of the flock.
Higher predator counts are only useful where herbivores are overpopulated, which is extremely rare. Most overgrazing problems are more due to bad timing and distribution of herbivores than their actual numbers, which is more indicative to the lack of people to do the herding than it is herding animals. Asking a shepherd to allocate more resources to feed protective animals instead of getting rid of the source of predation and bringing in more people is in general counterproductive for the entire system, especially the soil. More dogs won't work economically against unmanaged predator populations.
By all credible technical accounts as exemplified by the increasing range and population density of coyotes, nationwide, hunting has failed to reduce their numbers. It may teach them to shun people and it may teach them to steer clear of their assets but it won't make them go away.
And you ignored the obvious fact, which I stated, that all the animal matter put together is negligible compared to decaying vegetation.
I think that Jeff was right when he cited Islam as the reason Anatolian sheep herders are poor. I suspect that the NAZIs and the Soviets didn't have a particularly good influence on Turkish infrastructure and prosperity either.
Those darn things can climb trees.
Not where I live. Coyotes are the predators here. There may be bears and possibly mountain lions or bobcats in the mountains to the west, and I know there are bears in the mountains to the northeast. But the desert floor has only small prey, so the predators are also small.
Don’t laugh...the entire valley is filled with humans, and to still see coyotes here says a lot for the little guys.
“The coyote ate your baby”
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