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Stunning Report: "Stand Your Ground" Laws Responsible for 500-700 Homicides Per year
WOAI Radio ^ | 06/11/2012 | Jim Forsyth

Posted on 06/12/2012 5:28:59 AM PDT by Afisra

Research conducted at Texas A&M University concludes that far from reducing crime rates, so called 'Stand your Ground' laws are actually responsible for a drastic increase in the number of homicides nationwide each year.

(Excerpt) Read more at radio.woai.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: banglist; castledoctrine; propaganda; rkba; standyourground
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To: dangus
“In fact, they say the response of criminals to the idea that the victim may be armed is to arm themselves as well, turning what otherwise would have been burglaries and robberies into homicides.”

Ah, the logic of unilateral disarmament. By that logic, it would make sense to disarm the police as well, to avoid escalating the situation.

51 posted on 06/12/2012 6:22:07 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (If I can't be persuasive, I at least hope to be fun.)
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To: Dead Corpse

“the only real way to keep these folks from imposing their will on the rest of us is to oppose them with violence”

That’s evident in the case of Fast and Furious and Eric Holder. They’ll continue to do what they want to do until they are physically stopped from doing it. Hold up the law, morality, common decency, or even simple courtesy as a “barrier” to their behavior and they just walk right on by it, daring you to stop them.

If you’ve ever dealt with an alcoholic or drug addict,
they act in exactly this same way.


52 posted on 06/12/2012 6:22:38 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
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To: yldstrk
Yes, I believe the term they are deliberately ignoring is
"Justifiable Homicide".
53 posted on 06/12/2012 6:22:43 AM PDT by Falcon4.0
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They say data released by the states showed a sharp increase in justifiable homicide in the years immediately after they approved Stand Your Ground laws.

Well, .... duh!

54 posted on 06/12/2012 6:22:53 AM PDT by smokingfrog ( sleep with one eye open (<o> ---)
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To: Afisra
The worm has turned fortunately. It was indeed the usual...that only criminals have guns. Now, we're nipping off the bad guys and that is what was intended under the right to bear arms. And of course, self defense, is a natural right.

But killing babies in the womb is not a right.

Our government is soooooo wrong sometimes and I hope to see the abortion laws overturned in my lifetime.

Of course, Obama's girls will be disappointed.

55 posted on 06/12/2012 6:25:06 AM PDT by Sacajaweau
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To: detective
I would appreciate any comments you might have based upon the Abstract and the "difference-in-differences design research" style utilized.

Page two has something interesting as well...

First we investigate whether the laws increase justifiable homicide by private citizens. Importantly, justifiable homicide is defined as “the killing of a felon, during commission of a felony, by private citizen”.

Yeah, some real twists and turns in this one.

56 posted on 06/12/2012 6:27:37 AM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: dangus

oh, so the criminals are armed

ok

yeah, everyone knows the criminals are armed.

But the left asserts the criminals are armed to defend against the victims????????????????

Ludicrous, ridiculous, depraved. Now criminals have a right to an unarmed victim????????????????


57 posted on 06/12/2012 6:30:56 AM PDT by yldstrk ( My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: tacticalogic
...there is no evidence that the law provides positive spillovers by deterring crime more generally,...

Corrupter. Where's the proof that any, let alone a majority, of those stopped dead, were, voluntarily that is, on their last jaunt in criminal enterprising?

That is, the positive spillover is somewhat akin to "A stitch in time saves nine".

58 posted on 06/12/2012 6:31:07 AM PDT by Calvin Locke
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To: Afisra
Well done!
Thank you. Not having even the name in the article raised big alarms for me.
So, I went hunting...

I see now that I forgot to add you in my reply. My apologies. Good to see you're following your own thread.

59 posted on 06/12/2012 6:31:33 AM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: JohnLott

Ping


60 posted on 06/12/2012 6:33:22 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: Falcon4.0
Yes, I believe the term they are deliberately ignoring is "Justifiable Homicide".

The article missed it, not the report.
See reply 33 and 56 (snippet of pg 2 of the report)

61 posted on 06/12/2012 6:35:02 AM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Afisra
But murder rates in the U.S. are decreasing. Perhaps the stunning increase is in the number of murderers thinking they have a new "get out of jail free" card.


62 posted on 06/12/2012 6:35:23 AM PDT by Jack of all Trades (Hold your face to the light, even though for the moment you do not see.)
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To: yldstrk; Venturer

This is typical of Leftying lying by misuse of language. Do not think that it is not intentional.


63 posted on 06/12/2012 6:36:19 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: Afisra

“... showed a sharp increase in justifiable homicide in the years immediately after they approved Stand Your Ground laws.”

...ah...the learning curve the perps go thru before realizing THEY have now (justifiably) become the target.


64 posted on 06/12/2012 6:40:59 AM PDT by moovova (Michelle Obama is a community snacktivist.)
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To: yldstrk; Venturer

They must have caught some crap for their headline; it now reads “Homicides”, not “Murders”.


65 posted on 06/12/2012 6:41:16 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: Joe Brower

Paging John Lott


66 posted on 06/12/2012 6:41:27 AM PDT by MileHi ( "It's coming down to patriots vs the politicians." - ovrtaxt)
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To: SWAMPSNIPER

LOL! You said what I was going to say, and you said it better than I would have!

Nicely done.


67 posted on 06/12/2012 6:44:15 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Islam delenda est)
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To: Afisra

That’s a feature, not a bug. The people getting killed, NEED to get killed.


68 posted on 06/12/2012 6:49:17 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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To: Afisra

In the New America, research and university should never be used in the same sentence. It’s politics. Nothing but politics.


69 posted on 06/12/2012 6:52:34 AM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Free Stuff or Freedom! You Decide 2012.)
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To: Afisra

Law responsible for 500-700 peoples lives saved and 500-700 murderers dead.


70 posted on 06/12/2012 6:54:41 AM PDT by TribalPrincess2U (Criminaliens or Crimigrants...0bamao's people?)
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To: Afisra

500 to 700 dead criminals per year.
So, “Stand Your Ground” works!
That’s 500 to 700 less repeat offenders per year.


71 posted on 06/12/2012 6:58:44 AM PDT by BuffaloJack (End the racist, anti-capitalist Obama War On Freedom.)
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To: Afisra

I would say SYG laws PREVENT up to 700 murders per year. So bully for them.


72 posted on 06/12/2012 6:59:53 AM PDT by SoFloFreeper
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To: MrB

Yeah I had an Uncle and a Cousin that were substance abusers. I agree with your assement.


73 posted on 06/12/2012 7:02:16 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Steampunk- Yesterday's Tomorrow, Today)
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To: Afisra

Liberal propaganda is sooooo easy to spot. They think they are being clever, yet, their thoughts are that of small children.


74 posted on 06/12/2012 7:02:16 AM PDT by CodeToad (Homosexuals are homophobes. They insist on being called 'gay' instead.)
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To: Afisra
The researchers also say that strengthening concealed carry and Castle Doctrine laws also have no 'meaningful deterrence' against crimes like burglary and robbery, something they conceded surprised them.

They must have zombie criminals where these researchers are. Around here, when a potential victim kills the perp, it provides very "meaninful deterrence" to all the subsequent crimes the perp would have committed.

75 posted on 06/12/2012 7:02:29 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: PapaBear3625

“...they must first take affirmative steps to defuse the situation”

IMHO, a perp contracting a sudden case of terminal high-velocity lead poisoning will most affirmatively “defuse” the situation.

I approve.


76 posted on 06/12/2012 7:03:58 AM PDT by Ignatz (Winner of a prestigious 1960 Y-chromosome award!)
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To: Afisra
The "Report" was done by Mark Hoekstra & Cheng Cheng. Both are from the Department of Economics.

When did the Economics Department become part of The Law School?

Did they receive a healthy grant from The Brady Foundation, The Joyce Foundation or other Anti-Gun groups to come up with this slanted report?

I have to wonder what the Money Trail looks looks like for this "report".

77 posted on 06/12/2012 7:07:07 AM PDT by TYVets (Pure-Gas.org ..... ethanol free gasoline by state and city)
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To: MrB
Murder has a specific definition, it means the intentional killing of an innocent person.
The left would LOVE for it to be illegal to defend yourself.

They always have. Democrats passed Jim Crow laws explicitly to prevent blacks from defending themselves from lynch mobs.

(Also, there is no shortage of nations that passed gun control laws just a few years before mass killings began.)

78 posted on 06/12/2012 7:16:29 AM PDT by Teacher317 ('Tis time to fear when tyrants seem to kiss.)
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To: Jack of all Trades
Looking at the graph murder rates have FALLEN since 1980.

Could there be a tie in with the number of states that have passed Concealed Carry between 1980 and 2012?

79 posted on 06/12/2012 7:17:46 AM PDT by TYVets (Pure-Gas.org ..... ethanol free gasoline by state and city)
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To: grb

Another poster suggested that FR add a “like” button. I am all for that because I “LIKE” your post.


80 posted on 06/12/2012 7:17:46 AM PDT by heylady (“Sometimes I wish I could be a Democrat and then I remember I have a soul.”( Deb))
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To: philman_36
some real twists and turns in this one.

Seems to me like the study tried to be rational, yet the typical idiotic and agenda-driven journalism major typed up a headline to create a stir, solely to help circulation. As usual.

81 posted on 06/12/2012 7:21:20 AM PDT by Teacher317 ('Tis time to fear when tyrants seem to kiss.)
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To: hal ogen
“If the people dieing are the criminals, who really cares.”
LEOs, Judges, Lawyers, Prison Guards, Parole Officers, and Democrat politicians.
82 posted on 06/12/2012 7:31:02 AM PDT by MCF
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To: grb
Exactly. Your average career criminal costs society roughly $40K per year to incarcerate which, while expensive, is still a bargain compared to the average $250K per year they cost society in crime if they are not incarcerated.

More killings of perps is actually a very good thing.

Law abiding citizens, OTOH, contribute an average of $8K per year in taxes if they work full time. So you need to have five full time workers to support each perp in prison (excluding all other necessary government services) or 32 of them to support each perp which has not yet been put in prison.

Putting perps in the morgue at the hands of armed citizens is, by far, the most cost effective solution. Nothing else even comes close. We should be giving armed citizens a trophy and paying them a bounty every time they perform such a public service.

83 posted on 06/12/2012 7:31:55 AM PDT by Vigilanteman (Obama: Fake black man. Fake Messiah. Fake American. How many fakes can you fit in one Zer0?)
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To: Afisra

Just curious, but where did the requirement for a person to run from an encounter, even in their own home come from?

Was it one of those old anti-black laws to prevent them from shooting the KKK when they came to the front door forcing you to run out the back while your house was torched?


84 posted on 06/12/2012 7:33:35 AM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I LIKE ART! Click my name. See my web page.)
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To: philman_36
These are economics professors. They have no experience in law enforcement, criminology or solving real world problems. All they did was compare FBI crime statistics for states with and without stand your ground laws over a period of time. They did no analysis of any other factors. The 500 to 700 number is just extrapolation. It is not an actual count of anything.

They specifically said that they defined justifiable homicide as only killing a felon during commission of a felony. It did not include self-defense, etc.

This “study” does not prove anything other than a few correlations. Their conclusions are probably not valid.

85 posted on 06/12/2012 7:49:44 AM PDT by detective
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To: dangus; All
I look forward to an analysis of this study by John Lott. The devil is in the details, and in the definitions.

I expect that John will be looking at this very shortly.

I notice that the study “examines whether aiding self-defense in this way deters crime or, alternatively, escalates violence.” The two are not contradictory or mutually exclusive.

86 posted on 06/12/2012 7:51:22 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: Afisra

Self defense can be a deadly activity. Keep it up.


87 posted on 06/12/2012 7:51:56 AM PDT by pallis
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To: Afisra

Appears that the authors don’t know the difference between SYG and the Castle Doctorine.
Appears that the authors also feel that it’s better to submit to rape, robbery or assault than to defend one’s self.


88 posted on 06/12/2012 8:01:20 AM PDT by Eagles6 (S)
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To: Joe Brower

The notion of self defense is alien to those who view you as a candidate for human sacrifice.


89 posted on 06/12/2012 8:02:31 AM PDT by Noumenon (If people saw socialists for what they truly are, slaughter would ensue - in self-defense.)
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To: dangus

It also helps to point out that the criminals should not have been planning to commit burglaries and robberies in the first place. Had they behaved properly, the situations would not have arisen in the first place. Of course, it could then be said that the burglary and robbery victims should not have been in possession of such property that would tempt those of us who are less fortunate....And on and on and on. It’s a simple matter of redistribution./s


90 posted on 06/12/2012 8:06:18 AM PDT by Silentgypsy
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To: Venturer
I have read many posts in Free Republic of burglars being shot and killed while in the act, it cuts down on the cost of a trial and makes the world safer for honest people.

AND chlorinates the gene pool.

91 posted on 06/12/2012 8:12:58 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: Afisra

Upon reflection, the only sensible course is to reroute the robbers and burglars from property owners who espouse SYG to property owners who believe in reasoning and non-violence.


92 posted on 06/12/2012 8:18:10 AM PDT by Silentgypsy
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To: Silentgypsy
Could work.

All libs could tie a yellow ribbon or some such to the mailbox. Nothing fancy or imposing, just a small notice.

That way, all would be satisfied.

The SYG folks would be left alone, the libs would get opportunities to show tolerace, and perps would not have so much danger in their chosen occupation.

93 posted on 06/12/2012 8:30:44 AM PDT by going hot (Happiness is a momma deuce)
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To: Afisra
I don't have the energy to read this drivel right now. I'm assuming it is drivel so I will BTTT and bookmark for later.

Question: Who are the victims of shootings (the intended victim or the one instigating a crime against the intended victim who happens to be armed?

FYI: my sister and brother-in-law went to A&M. They still have Gore stickers on the bumpers.

The Cadet corps is pretty bad ass, though. A cadet pulled a sword on an opposing cheerleader for somehow desecrating Kyle Field during a football game.

A&M mascot is a collie named Reveille (sic?) and you WILL not disrespect Reveille, the line of past Reveilles, I think, are buried on Kyle Field (but that might just be a rumor). Great agriculture and veterinary school.

A&M has a very colorful history.

94 posted on 06/12/2012 8:31:08 AM PDT by hummingbird (Breitbart and Spartacus: here, there, everywhere.)
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To: yldstrk
these perps who got killed were not innocent

OK, I'll take a swing at that pitch.

I'm a common law fan. In fact, I'm fanatical about it, because it incorporates over 1000 years of the study of unchanging human nature.

I can't wrap my head around the APPLICATION of SYG laws. The principle, or concept, is easy to understand - it's just the Castle Doctrine moved to the street.

The problem is that physical engagements that can lead to deadly force happen in lots and lots of ways AWAY from your castle.

To put it simply, if someone kicks in your door at 2am and you kill them, the presumption that you had nothing to do with it (that you have "clean hands") is obvious. Not to say that the law can't ask if, for example, the dead guy is your daughter's boyfriend - but a presumption in your favor, sure.

The common law doctrine outside your castle is "retreat to the wall" - which means, do your best to stay out of trouble, but if trouble follows you, engage your right of self-defense up to and including deadly force.

It seems to me that SYG laws, by taking away "retreat to the wall" not only protect you in the case of unprovoked assault (where conventional self-defense law should work) but also eliminate the "stay out of trouble" part of the common law, which is as wise today as it was in 1066.

I know you waive SYG if you are the aggressor - but what about situations like bar fights and street hassles where Solomon himself can't figure out who did or said what to set it off? I've always been taught, and I teach others, that carrying means you have MORE responsibility to avoid stupid conflicts. It seems to me that SYG weakens this important rule.

Can any Florida FReepers enlighten me about how it actually works?

95 posted on 06/12/2012 8:35:15 AM PDT by Jim Noble
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To: Afisra

So, at the top end, about 14 homicides more per year per state. That’s about what we have on one weekend in Chicago from drive-by shootings.


96 posted on 06/12/2012 8:40:48 AM PDT by aruanan
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To: Afisra

Stand your Ground is cleaning out the gene pool.


97 posted on 06/12/2012 8:43:43 AM PDT by ThePatriotsFlag (Anybody but Obama.)
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To: Afisra

I would stand to defend that every one of these “murders”, (as defined by folks that pick up a handgun with two fingers and screech “Ewww!”), has been where John/Jane Q. Public have been the target of thieves, thugs, murders, rapists, or gang members, and have exercised their basic human right of self-preservation.

I challenge this announcement of increase, i.e., 500 to 700, because that is far too large for a statistical reality. You can’t bat 100 today, and 300 tomorrow! You can’t play golf with a 135 score today, and get a 69 tomorrow.


98 posted on 06/12/2012 8:51:43 AM PDT by Terry L Smith
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To: Afisra

More bad statistics. And self-defense isn’t murder anyway.


99 posted on 06/12/2012 9:00:19 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: philman_36

???? that sounds like a bizarre interpretation of justifiable homicide.

like a definition of their own making.


100 posted on 06/12/2012 9:02:12 AM PDT by TurboZamboni (Looting the future to bribe the present)
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