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In Case You Don't Like Romney... A Challenge To Every FReeper
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Posted on 06/13/2012 2:03:43 PM PDT by MindBender26

In Case You Don't Like Romney...

Columnist Andrew McCarthy gives us what probably is the most important question regarding the upcoming presidential election …

“If Romney wins the nomination, as seems very likely, I will enthusiastically support his candidacy. For my friends who may have hesitation on that score, I’d just ask you to keep four things in mind:

1.. Justice Scalia just turned 78

2.. Justice Kennedy will turn 78 later this year

3.. Justice Breyer will be 76 in August

4.. Justice Ginsburg turned 81 about a week ago and has had cancer twice.

Whoever we elect as president in November is almost certainly going to choose at least one and maybe more new members of the Supreme Court — in addition to hundreds of other life-tenured federal judges, all of whom will be making momentous decisions about our lives for decades to come.

If you don’t think it matters whether the guy making those calls is Mitt Romney or Barack Obama, I think you’re smokin’ something funky….”

So for anybody who is thinking of not voting because your favorite didn’t get nominated, or writing in a candidate who can't win ... just imagine this possibility:

'SUPREME COURT JUSTICE ERIC HOLDER'

Did that get your attention!


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: romney
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: CharacterCounts

I went through the entire list from Palin down. The two that I vowed not to vote for if they got the nod were Santorum and Romney but yet they would still get my vote AGAINST Obama. He must be removed even with a significantly less than ideal candidate.

In ‘08, it was 4 days before the election that I decided to hold my nose and vote for McCain and that was only Sarah was on the ticket. At the time, I figured that McCain was likely to do as much damage as Obama so I hesitated to commit. Now I know the danger is severe enough that Obama simply must be removed. Allowing him to remain because our intent is pure will not mitigate the damage or alleviate my conscience.

I do not believe the war is over if we elect Romney any more than I did when Bush won in 2000. Constant and eternal vigilance is required. We got to this point incrementally and we may have to rescue it the same way. Obama’s defeat is just the first step on a very long journey to where we should be.

Thank you for the civil discussion.


1,151 posted on 06/17/2012 11:33:07 AM PDT by PoliticalArsonist
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To: COBOL2Java

I don’t want to put words into your mouth but are you saying that Obama made the mess and he should be allowed to continue so we don’t get dirty?

Am I also to assume that you do not have a candidate that you do support (since you did not address that)?

I don’t disagree about what the dems will do (or at least try to do) but if we have a more energized Tea Party type congress we may even be able to circumvent either Romney or Obama. Not everyone is awake yet but much of the mud that the left is trying to sling is ending up on them. Their machine is not as effective as it once was and their continued hypocrisy may work to their disadvantage.

I am no more certain of any of this than you or anyone else but I believe that we must go with the unknown devil rather than the known one since there is no angel. I’m willing to gamble for a better outcome than to try to endure and outlast the devil that we do know.


1,152 posted on 06/17/2012 11:42:06 AM PDT by PoliticalArsonist
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To: Yashcheritsiy

Perhaps for 2016 but it is too late to mount that campaign now to be effective later this year.


1,153 posted on 06/17/2012 11:44:21 AM PDT by PoliticalArsonist
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To: PoliticalArsonist

Besides old fellow, I like the cut of that Romney fellow’s jib!


1,154 posted on 06/17/2012 12:24:39 PM PDT by Yashcheritsiy (not voting for the lesser of two evils)
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To: PoliticalArsonist
I don’t want to put words into your mouth but are you saying that Obama made the mess and he should be allowed to continue so we don’t get dirty?

Certainly not Obama, nor the Democrats, alone. This is something that has been building for 50 years, and some might say for even longer (see Woodrow Wilson). The Nelson Rockefeller wing of the Republican party deserve a large part of the blame. They hate Reagan.

I see Obama as more of a Manchurian Candidate tool in this whole effort than a fully involved participant.


Am I also to assume that you do not have a candidate that you do support (since you did not address that)?

I prefer to keep my voting preferences to myself. Merely indicating that I cannot in good conscience vote for Romney attracts enough abuse from the RomneyBots as it is.


I don’t disagree about what the dems will do (or at least try to do) but if we have a more energized Tea Party type congress we may even be able to circumvent either Romney or Obama. Not everyone is awake yet but much of the mud that the left is trying to sling is ending up on them. Their machine is not as effective as it once was and their continued hypocrisy may work to their disadvantage.

Can't disagree with you there.


I am no more certain of any of this than you or anyone else but I believe that we must go with the unknown devil rather than the known one since there is no angel. I’m willing to gamble for a better outcome than to try to endure and outlast the devil that we do know.

Someone else on this forum put it much better than I, that one has to give an accounting for their vote at Judgement time. I cannot lend my precious vote to either two of the candidates thrust at me.

1,155 posted on 06/17/2012 12:29:35 PM PDT by COBOL2Java (FUMR)
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To: South40; altura
Altura tends to lie rather often...

Other day they said they did not post under the same name on TrueBlueWhiners and in the same thread had to admit they did but ignore the fact they were caught.

so this is no surprise.

At least a case maybe made for being delusional.

1,156 posted on 06/17/2012 1:21:18 PM PDT by ejonesie22 (8/30/10, the day Truth won.)
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To: Yashcheritsiy

You like more about him than I do even if you left off the sarcasm tag.


1,157 posted on 06/17/2012 1:34:44 PM PDT by PoliticalArsonist
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To: COBOL2Java

I should have been clearer.

Obama is not solely responsible for the course that we are on but no previous president has put the pedal to the metal as he has or so blatantly therefore I cannot justify leaving him in office. Are you suggesting that we let him win so that the ‘we’ don’t get blamed while trying to fix it? That seems to be what you are willing to accept.

I sincerely hope that you are not counting me as a Romneybot, nor have I attacked you. I believe that we are allies who disagree on tactics, not on the goal. I was lurking during the great purge of Romney supporters and they deserved to be purged. They were ignoring the conservative choices and went straight to Romney.

Yes, we will be held accountable on judgment day. We will be judged not only for what we have done but for what we have failed to do. To me, failing to remove Obama is a sin and perhaps a greater one than voting for Romney because the results will be more immediate and more far reaching.


1,158 posted on 06/17/2012 1:48:10 PM PDT by PoliticalArsonist
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To: MindBender26

Ok, bender you do what you need to do.
I should that Romney has promoted homosexual marriage/civil unions/agenda.
You have decided to call me a liar, so be it.
I am not voting for a liberal no matter what their name is.


1,159 posted on 06/17/2012 2:28:11 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: MindBender26

This discussion has nothing to do with those yo have listed, try and keep up.
It has to do with your instance that Romney is not a liberal.
Do what you need to do.


1,160 posted on 06/17/2012 2:30:08 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: SoConPubbie

Should have pinged you to post #1144.
I is the time line of Romney’s promotion and abdications to homosexual marriage/civil unions (oh I have been told by our friend are lies).
Oh, well.
Have a good afternoon.


1,161 posted on 06/17/2012 2:35:21 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: ejonesie22; altura
She is delusional alright. But she's also a duplicitous poster who likes to play both sides. She lies to her fellow FR haters as you can see here.

However, I have no intention to 'sucking up' to anybody over there. I speak my mind and if the Owner doesn't like it and kicks me off, it will be a very slight loss in my life but nothing like it would have been at one time.
By the way, I am using my screen name from over there, maybe it was a mistake but it's done now and at this point I don't really care what the insane asylum does about me.

Now contrast that to this:

One way you can be sure of being zotted is to show any support whatever for gays. I didn't want to be zotted so I said nothing on the gay threads.

Lying or delusional?

1,162 posted on 06/17/2012 3:05:25 PM PDT by South40
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To: MindBender26

For a guy who is giddy with anticipation for Romney to be president you sure are angry about it?


1,163 posted on 06/17/2012 3:24:48 PM PDT by roylene (Salvation the great Gift of Grace.)
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To: Norm Lenhart
There's no guarantee Romney's going to win, not at all. It's more likely to be a squeaker than a blow out, and squeakers are usually won by the dems.

I've also mentioned several times the unintended fall out from working against the party's nominee, you are likely to inadvertently depress votes for true conservatives down ticket.

We should all be concerned about what Romney will do, but one thing for certain, we have no need of concern about Bambi, he will flat out ruin our republic and everything we all hold dear. As to guessing what Romney will do, my best guess is he'll be a squish, doing some terribly stupid things and also likely doing some good things. There are some good things he will do right away, particularly in the realm of economics. He's courting Ryan and Walker and praising them, and that's a good thing. He believes in growth and the free market, and that's a good thing. For those alone we should be thrilled.

As to the rest, I doubt he'll go 180, that's not in the cards, but he won't actively support things like abortion or immigration or ruining the military, and that's a world of difference.

Like I say, you need to rethink this strategy of yours of running against the GOP nominee. I don't like him, but compared to Bambi, it's a no brainer, and all conservatives should understand that rather than having their own little pity party. We can't afford another four years, we just can't.

1,164 posted on 06/17/2012 4:09:58 PM PDT by Lakeshark (I don't care for Mitt, the alternative is unthinkable)
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; P-Marlowe
It's not about nationalism, it's about blessing versus curse:...And I can't judge which sin is worse:

Those are points of concern for me, A-G, and they are worthy of serious biblical reflection. I intend to do just that, because the stakes are very high.

The issues as I see them are, and please correct me if you see the wording needing to be different:

Your concern is valid, AG, so it is imperative we discover the biblical answer to such questions. I'm truly interested and this is not some political game on my part. I suggest we gather the biblical evidence book by book that speaks to each of these issues once we've worded them correctly. Please take a turn at helping me word them correctly, and/or add any additional issues you think should be included.

Once we've established the proper issues, we'll go book-by-book (or section by section, ie., pentateuch, histories, poetics, prophets, gospels, etc.) through the entire Bible. What do you think? Will this consume time you don't currently have to devote?

Let God be true and every man a liar. Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia.

So far as the facts on the ground, I think we agree on those. (1) Obama is worse for Israel than is Romney who is a personal friend of Bibi Netanyahu. (2) Both Israel and the US sacrifice children to abortion, as a result of their turning to modern gods such as humanism, statism, etc.

From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Israel

Clauses 312-321 of the 1977 penal code limit the circumstances when an abortion is legal in Israel. Abortions can only be performed in Israel by licenced gynecologists in recognized medical facilities that are specifically and publicly recognized as a provider of abortions.[1] Abortions must be approved by the termination committee.

[edit] Circumstances under which abortion is legalThe termination committee approves abortions, under sub-section 316a,[1] in the following circumstances:

1.The woman is younger than seventeen (the legal marriage age in Israel) or older than forty.
2.The pregnancy was conceived under illegal circumstances (rape, statutory rape etc.), an incestuous relationship, or outside of marriage.
3.The fetus may have a physical or mental birth defect.
4.Continued pregnancy may put the woman's life in risk, or damage her physically or mentally.

In practice, most requests for abortion are granted, and leniency is shown especially under the clause for emotional or psychological damage to the pregnant woman. According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics report from 2004, 19,500 legal abortions were performed in Israel in 2003, while 200 requests for abortion were denied. Most abortions were authorized because the woman was unmarried (42%), because of illegal circumstances (11%), health risks to the woman (about 20%), age of the woman (11%) and fetal birth defects (about 17%).[2]


1,165 posted on 06/19/2012 3:34:36 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl; xzins; thouworm; Agamemnon; MindBender26; Yashcheritsiy; ...
Obama would have no power at all if it were not given to him by God. Do you agree with that statement?

No, for the following reason: The only power that Obama has is the power of deceit, of systematic lying. That is a gift that he could not possibly have received from God.

Certainly I do not believe that God has chosen Obama to be "a king over us." If Obama is there at all, then it seems to me it is only to serve as "pointman" of a great spiritual test of the American people.

So I hereby acknowledge that I'm not seeing this problem from the same point of view that you are. I'm going for "the big picture" here, which — as has already been eloquently suggested by Alamo-Girl and thouworm — essentially boils down to a great spiritual crisis confronting the American people, to my way of thinking, the greatest since the Civil War.

You and your party want to make Romney the problem here. Which, to me, is to entirely miss the point of the challenge before us.

The problem here is Obama. Some of your party claim that I "fear" Obama, which fear is making me so irrational that I am willing to compromise, even abandon, my conservative and Christian principles, to vote for a guy who's just as bad as Obama, and possibly worse. This is nonsense, all of it.

Ought one to "fear" the Antichrist? To fear him only gives him added strength. Better to look at him cooly and rationally, and "call him out" by naming him according to what he is: the "prince of lies," son of the Father of Lies, who out of sheer, unquenchable spite is the dedicated adversary and underminer of God and all His Works, especially including individual human beings.

Obama has deliberately taken a wrecking ball to the American way of Life — the economy, the Constitution, our historic institutions, national security, etc., while all the while selling us on the idea that he's diligently enhancing the public welfare. The result has been increasing uncertainty and disorder in our own country, which only feeds uncertainty and disorder elsewhere in the world.

He's a con-man, pure and simple; an antiChrist without doubt. As long as we believe his lies, he has "power over us."

I don't believe his lies; I want the lying thug removed from office before this country implodes. I cannot live in a world of lies.... No rational human being can for very long, without losing his sanity in the process.

You wrote,

Now [God] has given us a very difficult conundrum. Do we trust in God or do we trust in Romney?

This looks like a false choice to me. The unstated premise is that God and Romney are mutually-exclusive. Which is something you cannot possibly know, unless you knew the Mind of God, what He knows, how He judges.

But no human can know these things. The Word, Power, and Eternity of God cannot be "reduced" to the capacity of the finite mortal mind. To do such a thing makes God, in the most ungodly way, the "image" of a man, and not the other way around....

You wrote that Romney "is not going to save the country. Only God will do that." Mainly I share your belief, but with the following qualification:

It is my belief that God works through souls that are ordered in Him, in His Logos, His holy Word — in short, the "saving remnant" to which you refer.

But if the saving remnant is just sitting around, waiting for God to come in and clean up this mess, then who will save the saving remnant? I believe that God expects us to be active in matters spiritual. If this next election is, as I have argued, a spiritual test of the American people, then we must recognize that this is a test we cannot opt out of. And we need to be very careful about our "evidence."

My complaint is that your party keeps trotting out "evidence" which is merely a collection of talking points that are endlessly recycled and repeated in the echo chamber of your favorite "internal narrative." If someone objects that a piece of your evidence is false (and can prove it, as has happened in certain cases), your side doesn't "correct the record," but just keeps on repeating the same tainted evidence.

Or so it seems to me, FWIW.

Anyhoot, it seems this dispute is going nowhere fast.

We need to be looking for the forest here, not just at the trees....

Thank you so much for writing, dear brother in Christ!

1,166 posted on 06/19/2012 9:58:14 AM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: betty boop

“trotting out evidence” “collection of talking points” “recycled echo chamber”

Wow, I (and others) have posted, time lines, links to articles, videos - Romney has a clear record of liberalism.
As far as I can recall I have had not one person show me why or how this information is incorrect, instead I have been called a liar, insane, delusional, BHO supporter, DU troll, mormon hater, Romney hater, irrational..among others.

I will not vote for the liberal called Romney - is that simple. I do not vote for liberals.


1,167 posted on 06/19/2012 10:09:49 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: betty boop

In the spirit of you words, betty, including that us mortals not knowing or comprehending the will of God in Heaven and all that He bases His will upon..perhaps the following can explain Rommney and some of his clear disconnects and what some are calling hypocracy, lies, and deciet regarding his past.

There is no doubt that as Governor and while running for Senate that he took positions I do not agree with...and cannot agree with. He was elected as Governor of MA, and if he had been a true, strong conservative, I do not believe that would have been possible.

He was not, but he was running as a GOP candidate, and there are areas where he did share our principles and values.

Anyhow, he was elected and in things strongly conservative, he was powerless because the stae of MA has set it up that way and because he had an absolute overwhelming super-majoority pitted against him in the MA House and Seante.

He did issue several hundred vetroes...most all of which were overturned by that House and Senate. Reading what he objected to is something a lot of people fail to do...but it something that does say something about the man and indicates that he is probably much less the “Libral/socialist/Godless” devil some make him out to be.

Those who know him in his personal life and his business life and how he worked with and cared for family, friends, and his workers make it clear that this is an innacruate perception of the man in that personal life...and his vetoes make it clear that at the very least he is not as bad as he is made out to be in his political life...despite his clear liberal tendancies back then.

But now, after years, and in his second run for the Presidency, he is stating, like he did four years ago, that he has changed.

His stances on the issues during the campaign at debates, in speeches, etc. certainly reflect this. His campaign site and his pages on the sisues there indicate the same.

Romeny on the ISsues - Values
http://www.mittromney.com/issues/values

In fact, his platform on that site, standing by itself, if it did not have his name on it, would not be bad at all. Not perfect...but immensley and orders of magnitude better than anything coming from Obama or any of the DNC or left.

So...is he lieing and trying to fool us? sucking us all in so he can turn 180 degrees from wht he is saying?

I personally do not think so. He is sitting down and talking long and hard with many GOP political figures...some of them very conservative people whom I respect...and to a person they are coming away now endorsing him, even those who ran against him in the primaries.

Why?

Are the hoodwinked? No, I do not think so. Are they pragmatic and recognize that we must get rid of Obama? Certainly.

Crtical Endorsements for Romney
http://www.jeffhead.com/EndorseRomney.htm

But what of Romney? Where does he really stand?

What if Romney, after all the experiences he has had in business, running for the US Senate, governing in MA and now running for President twice has actually had the conservative message resonate? Is this possible? Of course it is...it has happened with many others and who were not even republican at the time.

What if he is really changing and moving to the conservative side? His positions reflect this...though many, including myself, are very wary because of his past and because now it is certainly politically expediant for him to do so.

But if he is changing, and I believe it very possible, precisely because the things he is proposing will actually work, and if he has a majortiy in the house and the senate they will work well...he will continue them. And if he does so, I expect there is going to be a dramatic and phenominal turn around. A turn around which will only solidify this change and his intention to continue with those policies...perhaps for two full terms...and perhaps leading to tow or more after him with even more conservative leaders.

So, should we really being calling a man who is at least acting like he is changing, and who has said he has changed...particulalry when the possibility of that change is so critical to our national interest and potential survival as a Conbstitutional Republic...is the answer to really call him Godless, Satanic, a socialist, a liar, a demegogue, etc. ..all of those vile things and try and convince others that he is so?

I do not think so. In fact such a course is absolutley and atrcoiously self-defeating in my estimation. It would invariably ensure, if enough believed it and stayed home or did not vote, the 2nd term of the man absolutely and verifaibly bent on fundamentally changing and destroying the Reublic by his own actions and words.

Obama - the Man who despises America
http://www.jeffhead.com/obama-time.htm

As a result, I am compelled to do absolutely nothing, either by my action or inaction, to allow Obama a second term. So I will be supporting Romney, despite his past...and will do so vigorously now in the hopes of removing Obama and witnessing and experiencing the great turn around I spoke of and I believe is possible....and with which a whole lot of very prominent and well known conservative patriots will be numbered in who I join with in that effort.

America at the Crossroads of History
http://www.jeffhead.com/crossroads.htm


1,168 posted on 06/19/2012 10:33:53 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: svcw; betty boop
Unfortunately your attitude simply allows for the reelection of a radical leftist, an administration that is more destructive, more anti-everything we stand for than anything we've ever seen.

Neither betty, myself, or any of the others care for Romney, it's very simple, we can't have this man child in office for another four years, he'll go full blown Hugo Chavez on us, and those like you will be responsible if you get your way.

Your vote is a vote for a radical who will destroy everything you love.

1,169 posted on 06/19/2012 10:35:49 AM PDT by Lakeshark (I don't care for Mitt, the alternative is unthinkable)
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To: betty boop
Great post.

Thanks for the ping.

1,170 posted on 06/19/2012 10:38:16 AM PDT by Lakeshark (I don't care for Mitt, the alternative is unthinkable)
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To: MindBender26
Amen to your post, Mindbender. my FRiend..I'm with you.

See my post 1,168

1,171 posted on 06/19/2012 10:49:23 AM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free, never has been, never will be (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: svcw; MindBender26; Agamemnon; Alamo-Girl; xzins; Jeff Head; Yashcheritsiy; P-Marlowe
I will not vote for the liberal called Romney - is that simple. I do not vote for liberals.

You left out "internal narrative." It is only on that basis that Romney can be called a "liberal." This supposition has been convincingly refuted (to my mind) by MindBender26 and Agamemnon — evidently two highly experienced "public men."

The term "public man" invokes the ancient philosopher Heraclitus. By this term, he referred to mature experienced men active in the service of their society who, above all, understand that the Logos "is one and common" to all men, whether they are consciously aware of this fact or not. Those who are unaware he referred to as "private men," men "asleep" and "dreaming"....

Well, just a bit of trivia here....

I would call such men "political realists." Not ideologues (i.e., "dreamers.")

My thanks go out to MindBender26 and Agamemnon for their outstandingly informative and responsive essay/posts on this issue.

Anyone needing a sample can go here and here.

1,172 posted on 06/19/2012 10:56:44 AM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: Lakeshark
Your vote is a vote for a radical who will destroy everything you love.

Why thank you. It never occurred to me how much power I possess.

At least you are using a new and longer set of words to describe me and my unwillingness to vote for liberals.

Nice, not nearly as boring as being called just a liar.

Actually Romney is the presumptive nominee because so called conservatives have been capitulating to liberal Republicans for a long time in the hope some conservative would rise to the top of the heap. All that happened with those votes is solidify in the mind of the GOPe, that they could run liberals, each more liberal than the last,p>I am no longer playing their game. I will not vote for a liberal.

1,173 posted on 06/19/2012 11:01:08 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: betty boop

Ok, if you beleive stating endorsements and personal opinion is evidence but links to actual documents, videos, news stories and Romney’s own words is not evidence, there is nothing more I can say.
Good day.


1,174 posted on 06/19/2012 11:05:33 AM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: Jeff Head
As always, you are the Voice of Reason here at FR... great post!

My husband and I - and just about everybody we know across various states - will crawl over broken glass to vote "ABO 2012" as well. The choice is obvious. Obozo absolutely cannot get another four years in which he will completely destroy this country we love.

God bless you... I hope you are feeling well.

1,175 posted on 06/19/2012 11:07:06 AM PDT by nutmeg
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; xzins; thouworm; Agamemnon; MindBender26; Yashcheritsiy; Jim Robinson; ...
No, for the following reason: The only power that Obama has is the power of deceit, of systematic lying. That is a gift that he could not possibly have received from God.

No the tools that he uses to wield whatever "power" he has over this nation are deceit and lying. The power that he has to "rule over us" would not be his unless God had ordained him to be in that position. The question which Christians must ask themselves is "Why would God appoint such a lying deceitful egomaniac to be appointed as President"?

If God had not ordained him to be where he is, he would not be there. Obama has not chosen himself to be a leader, but a ruler. God has stated quite clearly that the heart of the ruler is in the hand of God and he changes it at his will. Just as he hardened the heart of Pharaoh, he hardens and softens the hearts of all rulers to accomplish HIS will.

America is at an interesting crossroad. We have been slouching towards this crossroad to Gomorrah for decades and here we are. We have been cursed with 4 years of being ruled over by an Abortion promoting, homosexual agenda promoting, homosexual marriage and adoption advocating President and now we are being given a choice between a President who has been Abortion promoting, homosexual agenda promoting, homosexual marriage and adoption advocating President and a candidate who has time and again proven himself to be an Abortion promoting, homosexual agenda promoting, homosexual marriage and adoption advocating Candidate (either for Governor, Senator and now president.

I have little doubt but that Governor Romney has been appointed to be our next president. There are a few in my camp who think that Obama can beat him. I'm not in that camp, in fact I believe that the American People, being the fickle self-centered electorate that they are, are going to put the same faith in Romney that they put in Obama and that Romney will probably win this election in a landslide.

But does that mean that American will be turning away from the path towards Gomorrah? I don't think so. Romney is as embedded in that camp as anyone and Romney's principle road to power has been the same as Obama, i.e. he has used the same "Tools" of "deceit, of systematic lying" that Obama used to get to his current position of power.

I'm going for "the big picture" here, which — as has already been eloquently suggested by Alamo-Girl and thouworm — essentially boils down to a great spiritual crisis confronting the American people, to my way of thinking, the greatest since the Civil War.

If it is a spiritual crisis that we are in, then obviously the solution to that crisis is not to vote for a lying deceitful pro-abortionist, pro-gay marriage, pro homosexual agenda, pro-gay adoption social corporatist who believes that God is just one of a gazillion Gods who get together every once in a while on the planet Kolob and vote to exalt a new breed of Gods, one of whom will be Mitt Romney at some point in the not too distant future.

If we are at a point of a political crisis only, then the "logical" choice is to vote for Romney and to continue on the spiritual down slide that brought us Obama in the first place. If it is a "spiritual crisis" that we are in, then I suspect that the next 4 years is not going to change at all if either Romney or Obama is elected. If God gave us Obama because we as a nation put our collective "Hope" in him to change things for the better, then if we put our "Hope" in Romney to accomplish the same feat, we will be sorely disappointed.

I will not vote for Romney. Let it be clear that Romney is probably going to win because Obama has been such an utter disaster. Romney will win, but not with my vote or the votes of those you choose to ridicule here. We are standing on solid ground by not choosing to be pragmatic with our priciples. I have vowed never to vote again for any candidate with a pro-abortion record or who advocates a pro-abortion platform. For Romney's entire political career he has been firmly entrenched in the pro-abortion camp. His recent "conversion" is nothing but "lies and deceit" which is how he won the nomination and it is how he will succeed in winning the Presidency. He will win it. But not with my vote. No how. No way.

1,176 posted on 06/19/2012 11:14:29 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins
Fantastic post!
1,177 posted on 06/19/2012 11:56:53 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: betty boop

Betty,

It all boils down to two things.

Cain endorses Romney
Santorum endorses Romney
Newt endorses Romney
Ms Bauchmann endorses Romney... but these folks think they know better.

In addition, the reality is; Obama or Romney.

Thank you for having the wisdon to see that.

Be well.


1,178 posted on 06/19/2012 11:57:43 AM PDT by MindBender26 (America can survive 4 years of Romney. She cannot survive another 4 years of an unfettered Obama!)
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To: betty boop

Betty,

It all boils down to two things.

Cain endorses Romney
Santorum endorses Romney
Newt endorses Romney
Ms Bauchmann endorses Romney... but these folks think they know better.

In addition, the reality is; Obama or Romney.

Thank you for having the wisdon to see that.

Be well.


1,179 posted on 06/19/2012 12:06:14 PM PDT by MindBender26 (America can survive 4 years of Romney. She cannot survive another 4 years of an unfettered Obama!)
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To: svcw
Pretending I called you a liar is a bit strange, but whatever......

If you think voting has no power you shouldn't vote at all, and to make the equation that a radical leftist is the same as a progressive RINO squish is beyond moronic. You can say it all day long, over and over, but that won't make it true.

If pretending they are the same gets you off (which it seems to), go ahead, be silly, vote your way and continue your irrelevance even to yourself.

I will not allow a radical leftist to be reelected with my vote.

1,180 posted on 06/19/2012 12:14:16 PM PDT by Lakeshark (I don't care for Mitt, the alternative is unthinkable)
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To: svcw; betty boop; MindBender26; Agamemnon; Alamo-Girl; xzins; Jeff Head; Yashcheritsiy; ...
Ok, if you beleive stating endorsements and personal opinion is evidence but links to actual documents, videos, news stories and Romney’s own words is not evidence, there is nothing more I can say.

Good day.


And that is the crux of the matter with ABOs.

In order to support Obama as principled conservatives, as I believe they are, they have to do two things:

1. Ignore the mountain of historical EVIDENCE that Romney is a Progressive Liberal and that he is a serial liar. In effect, stick their heads in the sand because he has an 'R' next to his name.
2. Engage in accepting the Fear that Obama is the Anti-Christ(<\SARCAM>) and the Republic we live in, irrespective of the Government that has been set up to limit the powers of each branch, will somehow be magically overrun by Obama's desire for power and the other two branches will not do their jobs to stop the takeover by Obama.
1,181 posted on 06/19/2012 12:26:10 PM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency.)
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To: betty boop; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl; cripplecreek; thouworm; Agamemnon; MindBender26; ...
... Obama would have no power at all if it were not given to him by God. Do you agree with that statement?

No, for the following reason:

It grieves me deeply, Sister, to see you argue against 2000 years of obvious Christian teaching and 6,000 years of obvious Judeo-Christian teaching.

There is no historic Christian denomination that believes what you just rejected, nor is there any doubt that the Bible teaches the omnipotence and omniscience and omnipresence of God.

Very clearly this is not about the free will of individuals but is instead about the guiding power of God. As the Apostle Paul so eloquently said in Athens:

Acts 17:24 "The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27 God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us.

So, the rise and fall of NATIONS is part of God's plan to have people seek HIM. There are so many examples.

17 The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers; he made the people prosper during their stay in Egypt, with mighty power he led them out of that country, 18 he endured their conduct for about forty years in the desert, 19 he overthrew seven nations in Canaan and gave their land to his people as their inheritance. 20 All this took about 450 years.

Let God be true and every man a liar.

1,182 posted on 06/19/2012 12:30:46 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl; MindBender26; Agamemnon; thouworm; xzins; Yashcheritsiy; Jim Robinson; ...
The question which Christians must ask themselves is "Why would God appoint such a lying deceitful egomaniac to be appointed as President"?

It wasn't God who "appointed" Obama. It was the American electorate. (How can one blame God for human acts?)

I only hope the "dupes" among them will not succeed in returning him to an Office he is not by any means or measure qualified to hold, this next time out.

BTW, I define "dupes" as people who are not ordered in the Logos of God, but who are ruled from the level of "vital nature." IOW, the "pull of the physical world" outweighs and outdraws the "pull of the spiritual world" with such people.

I aver we Americans are in the throes of a great spiritual crisis at this time.

By "spirit," I intend the following:

...the openness of man to the divine ground [of being]. Through spirit man actualizes his potential to partake of the divine. He rises thereby to the imago Dei which it is his destiny to be. Spirit in this classical sense of nous, is that which all men have in common, the xynon as Heraclitus called it. Through the life of the spirit, which is common to all, the existence of man becomes existence in community. In the openness of the common spirit there develops the public life of society. [Voegelin, Collected Works 12:7]

Now the America that Obama seems dedicated to destroying is the most promising crucible of the emergence of God-given individual liberty as the main factor to be protected in a just and free ("liberal") public order. In this sense, America is, as John Winthrop put it, a "shining city on a hill," the beacon of liberty under just law beaming outward into the world. All because, historically, culturally, the American people understood America was a "nation under God."

In the past, God has manifestly blessed America....

But do we deserve His blessings nowadays?

At this point, I just get down on my knees and pray. For I have no privileged insight into the answer to that question.

Everyone must do the best he/she can: Pray. Vote your conscience.

1,183 posted on 06/19/2012 12:43:46 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: xzins
It grieves me deeply, Sister, to see you argue against 2000 years of obvious Christian teaching and 6,000 years of obvious Judeo-Christian teaching.... There is no historic Christian denomination that believes what you just rejected.

What have I "rejected?"

..."2000 years of obvious Christian teaching and 6,000 years of obvious Judeo-Christian teaching"???

Good grief, I strongly doubt that!!! Why would I do a thing like that, which would be tantamount to denying the very ground of being on which I stand?

Methinks you are imputing to me motives that are not my own, in a sort of "projection" of internal ideas which are solely your own, onto me as a sort of "target" or "object lesson."

For what purpose?

1,184 posted on 06/19/2012 12:53:35 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: xzins
Let God be true and every man a liar.

Sounds good to me.

1,185 posted on 06/19/2012 12:55:36 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: Lakeshark

Thanks Lakeshark! I’ve been admiring your posts, as well.


1,186 posted on 06/19/2012 12:57:36 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: Lakeshark

I did not you called me a liar, I said what you said was not as boring as being called a liar.
The rest is just whiny deflection.
Try and keep up. I will not vote for a liberal, you do what you need to do .


1,187 posted on 06/19/2012 1:14:50 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; MindBender26; Agamemnon; thouworm; xzins; Yashcheritsiy; Jim Robinson; ...
It wasn't God who "appointed" Obama. It was the American electorate. (How can one blame God for human acts?)

I'm not "blaming" God for anything. I am merely acknowledging his sovereignty. Do you believe that if God didn't want Obama to be the president that the American People could have negated God's sovereign will by voting for someone that God did not want to be there? Are you that convinced of the power of the people over the power of God?

No I am firmly of the belief that sometimes God gives us what we want to teach us a lesson. In this case the American People wanted Obama so God gave him to us. If this is a cosmic joke, then the joke is on us.

I don't blame God for any of the unfortunate circumstances that I find myself in. On the other hand, I give thanks to God for all those circumstances knowing that all things work together for good to those who believe. In that sense I believe we will someday thank God for cursing us with Obama as our ruler. Whatever happens this November is going to be what God ordained to happen. If you think that God's will can be undone by the votes of the electorate, then you have more faith in Humanity than you do in God.

Somehow I think you haven't really thought this through clearly. I know you have spent a lot of time thinking about it, but I suspect you made up your mind before you started coming up with reasons to support Romney. What it boils down to is that you want Obama gone. I want him gone too. But I also want God's will to be done. Sometimes God's will is painful.

In the past, God has manifestly blessed America.... But do we deserve His blessings nowadays?

Looking around at our society, a society which (with the blessings of Romney) has murdered over 55 million innocent babies in the last generation - a nation which literally murdered its last generation - can you give me one good reason why America "DESERVES" anything from God other than Judgment?

Are we going to mollify God's wrath by casting our lot with a man who was (for the last generation) a vocal proponent of a "woman's right" to murder her unborn child or who has advocated for special rights and privileges for homosexuals including the "right" to marry and to adopt children?

I think not.

Will there be enough Americans unwilling to cast their lot with either of these pro-abortion candidates to postpone or turn God from the Judgment and wrath of God for our collective sins?

I don't know. I hope so.

God was willing to spare Sodom if Abraham could find but a handful of righteous men. Yet Sodom was destroyed. Does America "deserve" better? Maybe. God only knows.

1,188 posted on 06/19/2012 1:30:17 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: P-Marlowe
No I am firmly of the belief that sometimes God gives us what we want to teach us a lesson?

So maybe God sometimes gives us something we don't want, to "teach us a lesson?"

Or are you prepared to rule such a thing out of the question, in principle?

Do you hold yourself forth as an expert in "what God wants?"

Personally, I think I have a pretty good idea, generally speaking. But as to how the details work out, I am as ignorant as you.

1,189 posted on 06/19/2012 1:39:04 PM PDT by betty boop (We are led to believe a lie when we see with, and not through the eye. — William Blake)
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To: betty boop; P-Marlowe; Alamo-Girl; MindBender26; Agamemnon; thouworm; xzins; Yashcheritsiy; ...
It wasn't God who "appointed" Obama. It was the American electorate. (How can one blame God for human acts?)

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

Acts 1:21 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." 23 So they proposed two men: Joseph called Barsabbas (also known as Justus) and Matthias. 24 Then they prayed, "Lord, you know everyone's heart. Show us which of these two you have chosen 25 to take over this apostolic ministry, which Judas left to go where he belongs." 26 Then they cast lots, and the lot fell to Matthias; so he was added to the eleven apostles.

Proverbs 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases

Exodus 14:8 The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, so that he pursued the Israelites, who were marching out boldly.

Jeremiah 49:28 [A Message About Kedar and Hazor] Concerning Kedar and the kingdoms of Hazor, which Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon attacked: This is what the LORD says: "Arise, and attack Kedar and destroy the people of the East.

2 Chronicles 36:22 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing:

Exodus 12:36 The LORD had made the Egyptians favorably disposed toward the people, and they gave them what they asked for; so they plundered the Egyptians.

Jeremiah 51:1 This is what the LORD says: "See, I will stir up the spirit of a destroyer against Babylon and the people of Leb Kamai.

1 Samuel 5:6 The LORD's hand was heavy upon the people of Ashdod and its vicinity; he brought devastation upon them and afflicted them with tumors.

2 Kings 17:20 Therefore the LORD rejected all the people of Israel; he afflicted them and gave them into the hands of plunderers, until he thrust them from his presence.

2 Chronicles 25:7 but a man of God came to him and said, "O king, these troops from Israel must not march with you, for the LORD is not with Israel--not with any of the people of Ephraim.

1,190 posted on 06/19/2012 2:10:39 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: betty boop; xzins
So maybe God sometimes gives us something we don't want, to "teach us a lesson?" Or are you prepared to rule such a thing out of the question, in principle?

God is obviously more than willing to give us what we want to teach us a lesson or to give us what we don't want to teach us a lesson. I don't understand why you would have posited that question.

Do you hold yourself forth as an expert in "what God wants?"

I think the Bible is pretty clear that when things like elections occur, the result is something that God ordained. God is perfectly capable of controlling every situation so that ultimately his will is done. I have studied the Bible and History enough to know that when it comes to determining the direction a nation goes, that God's hand is fully in control of the situation. Israel is the perfect example of God using people like Obama to chastize the nation for it's lack of faith. How many times did God ordain tyrants to rule over Israel so that they would turn from their ways?

If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land. Chr 7:14

Personally, I think I have a pretty good idea, generally speaking. But as to how the details work out, I am as ignorant as you.

Do you believe that God doesn't know who is going to be elected this November?

Do you believe that if God didn't want that to happen, that he is somehow powerless to prevent it?

1,191 posted on 06/19/2012 2:11:15 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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To: betty boop
Marlowe asked: ... Obama would have no power at all if it were not given to him by God. Do you agree with that statement?

Betty responded: No, for the following reason:

That response Betty is a rejection of scripture....lots of it.

Daniel 4: "13 I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold,a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven. 14 He cried aloud, and said thus….. 17 This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."

John 19: "Then saith Pilate unto him: Speakest thou not unto me? Knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?

Jesus answered: Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above. Therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin."

1,192 posted on 06/19/2012 2:27:16 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: P-Marlowe

See #1192


1,193 posted on 06/19/2012 2:30:23 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: svcw
Yeah, but you're voting for a radical leftist instead.

Congrats on your purity. The left thanks you and laughs heartily.

1,194 posted on 06/19/2012 2:50:52 PM PDT by Lakeshark (I don't care for Mitt, the alternative is unthinkable)
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To: xzins

I’m not sure what is more ridiculous: “conservatives” trying to justify voting for a liberal and calling it the conservative thing to do, or “Christians” trying to justify a vote for a a man who legislated pro abortion/homosexual laws and using the Bible to do so.

This thread and others like it belong on an episode of Mystery Science Theater. Honestly, it’s not worth debating people that do not see the obvious contradiction in their stated positions.


1,195 posted on 06/19/2012 2:54:47 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: Lakeshark

For some reason only know to you, you think I am voting for BHO. It is a charge against me over and over and over.......show me one post ever where I said I was voting for him.
Put up or shut up.


1,196 posted on 06/19/2012 2:56:35 PM PDT by svcw (If one living cell on another planet is life, why isn't it life in the womb?)
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To: MindBender26; Lakeshark

Since this is indeed going nowhere, I’ll finish with this. I’ll take this guy’s thoughts on the matter over yours.

“Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost.” John Quincy Adams

You on the other hand can ‘cherish the sweetest reflection’ that you voted foe a man whose principles oppose (supposedly) your own. More power to you and hopefully in the future we’ll find things we agree on because on this matter, I and many here refuse to yield.


1,197 posted on 06/19/2012 3:15:58 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: Lakeshark; svcw; P-Marlowe; cripplecreek; cva66snipe; Elvina; greyfoxx39; Hilda; ImpBill; kabar; ...
Yeah, but you're voting for a radical leftist instead.

That is a truly, stupendously ignorant statement.

Ignorant of how a vote works.

Ignorant of alternative candidates

Ignorant of the person's own statements

Ignorant of reality itself.

It can not be more completely an ignoring of the facts at hand.

Svcw, these people are just making it up as they go. Because their own past conservatism condemns their current position, their guilty consciences are forcing their pens/tongues to wag nonsense.

1,198 posted on 06/19/2012 3:28:02 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: Lakeshark
Yeah, but you're voting for a radical leftist instead. Congrats on your purity.

The left thanks you and laughs heartily.


I expected more of you Lakeshark.

Seems I was wrong about you.

What a stupendously stupid comment.
1,199 posted on 06/19/2012 3:40:27 PM PDT by SoConPubbie (Mitt and Obama: They're the same poison, just a different potency.)
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To: xzins; betty boop
the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men."

You know I had read that before and remembered the sentiment, but couldn't remember if it was in the Bible or something that someone else had said. It is true that the basest of men are often given to us by God to be our "leaders" in the kingdom of men. I think that verse certainly expresses the FACT that it is God who chooses our rulers, even in a democracy. We have clearly been blessed as a nation to have the likes of George Washington (who clearly had some personal faults) and Ronald Wilson Reagan, but by and large we have survived as a nation with some pretty base men at the top of the political food chain. It is a miracle that we are still a relatively free nation, but it is only by the grace of God and not by the choice of our electorate that God has spared this nation much of the turmoil that is visited upon the rest of the planet.

1,200 posted on 06/19/2012 3:43:06 PM PDT by P-Marlowe (Virgil Goode! Because everyone else is Bad!)
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