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Judge rejects ban on pediatricians asking patients about gun ownership(barf alert)
palmbeachpost.com ^ | 2 July, 2012 | Dara Kam

Posted on 07/03/2012 6:15:01 AM PDT by marktwain

Tallahassee —

A federal judge has permanently blocked a Florida law barring doctors from asking their patients about gun ownership, ruling the law unconstitutionally violates physicians’ freedom of speech.

U.S. District Judge Marcia Cooke issued a permanent injunction Friday that barred the law from going into effect and rejected the state’s argument that the law was aimed at protecting gun owners from discrimination. Cooke had temporarily put the law on hold last year, after three groups of doctors sued Gov. Rick Scott within days after he signed the National Rifle Association-backed bill passed by the GOP-dominated legislature.

“This law chills practitioners’ speech in a way that impairs the provision of medical care and may ultimately harm the patient,” Cooke wrote in her 25-page ruling. “The State, through this law, inserts itself in the doctor-patient relationship, prohibiting and burdening speech necessary to the proper practice of preventive medicine, thereby preventing patients from receiving truthful, non-misleading information…. This it cannot do.”

Scott’s spokesman Lane Wright said the governor was considering his options.

Rep. Jason Brodeur, a Sanford Republican who sponsored the bill, and the Florida Senate’s general counsel, Craig Meyer, said they believed Scott would appeal.

Mobeen Rathore, president of the Florida Chapter of the American Academy of Pediatrics, said he hoped the case would be quickly resolved, for patients’ sake, “so we can continue our efforts to get them the best information, specifically preventive information to families for their children on this and all risk issues.”

The NRA and some gun owners complained that doctors were using questions about guns to discourage gun ownership. They cited the example of an Ocala pediatrician who told a couple to find a new doctor because the couple refused to answer questions about whether they owned guns and how they were stored.

But the judge chided the legislature for relying upon anecdotal evidence like that rather than empirical evidence of an alleged problem. And

lawyers for the Florida chapters of the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Family Physicians and the American College of Physicians argued that what they called the “physician gag law” prevented doctors from doing their job.

Doctors routinely ask patients about safety issues related to tobacco, drugs, alcohol, chemicals and swimming pools, Bruce Manheim of the Washington, D.C.-based law firm Ropes & Gray argued. “We think the court’s decision protects the sanctity of speech between a doctor and his or her patients and ultimately advances preventive medicine and protects the safety of children,” Manheim said.

Under the “Firearm Ownership Privacy Act,” doctors and other health care professionals would have faced fines and the loss of their licenses if they asked patients about guns in the home, “unless the practitioner in good faith believes the information is relevant to the patient’s medical care or safety or the safety of others.” The law also would have imposed sanctions if doctors “unnecessarily harass a patient about firearm ownership.”

But the anti-harassment language is too vague, Cooke ruled, and “does not provide fair notice as to what range of conduct it prohibits.”

The ruling drew praise from ACLU executive director Howard Simon. The ACLU filed an amicus brief on behalf of a group of healthcare and child welfare organizations, including the Palm Beach County Medical Society.

“The attempt to gag physicians and prevent them from practicing preventive medicine is an embarrassment for every legislator who voted to throw the First Amendment rights of medical personnel out the window based on a single and flimsy anecdotal report of an alleged problem. Could there be a clearer example of why the Florida legislature is held in such low esteem?” Simon said.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; US: Florida
KEYWORDS: banglist; constitution; doctor; fl
The article ignores the principle reason for the law, which was to prevent using the practice of medicine for the purpose of subverting the Constitution, especially as the practice of medicine is seldom any longer done by private practitioners, but is prescribed by federal and state law.

The asking of children if there are any guns at home leads directly to that information being placed on federal data bases, and thence to discrimination against those homes that exercise the constitutional rights to arms.

There is no doubt that there is a political attempt to equate firearms with medical risk, which is not borne out by the facts. It is a violation of boundary conditions for doctors to insert their political predjudices into the patient doctor relationship.

1 posted on 07/03/2012 6:15:10 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Do the patient have to answer?


2 posted on 07/03/2012 6:17:29 AM PDT by Straight8
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To: Straight8

“Patients”. Caffeine deficiency.


3 posted on 07/03/2012 6:19:09 AM PDT by Straight8
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To: marktwain

If a doctor were to ask me if I owned guns, I would exercise MY freedom to NOT speak.

(What business lis it of theirs anyway?)


4 posted on 07/03/2012 6:20:22 AM PDT by WildHighlander57 ((WildHighlander57 returning after lurking since 2000))
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To: Straight8

no


5 posted on 07/03/2012 6:20:22 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: marktwain

I’ve already decided if my doctor asks me about this I’m going to lie like nobody’s business about it.


6 posted on 07/03/2012 6:21:07 AM PDT by MachIV
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To: marktwain

Question: Do you own a gun?

Answer: Shove it up your smelly Obmaa.


7 posted on 07/03/2012 6:23:25 AM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: WildHighlander57
If a doctor were to ask me if I owned guns, I would exercise MY freedom to NOT speak.

I would ask him for details about intimacy with his wife ... it's just as pertinent.
8 posted on 07/03/2012 6:23:25 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana (There is no salvation in politics.)
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To: marktwain

We haven’t seen anything yet. Just wait until Obama is in his second term, (which is probable considering the weenie Rinos in the GOP), and unleashes more federal judicial appointments to legislate from the bench.


9 posted on 07/03/2012 6:23:30 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: marktwain

Question: Do you own a gun?

Answer: Shove it up your smelly Obmaa.


10 posted on 07/03/2012 6:23:39 AM PDT by Da Coyote
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To: marktwain

Dingbat doctor asked my kids if there were guns in the house. The kids rolled their eyes and said dad’s in LE so duuuuh yeah. They had her pegged as a loony first thing and on their own didn’t answer anymore questions. We reported her and apparently so did others because a short time later she’d moved on.


11 posted on 07/03/2012 6:24:11 AM PDT by bgill
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To: marktwain
Republicans need to go on the offense.

Doctors should ask if parents have 'overnight guests' - and how often. Child rapes, abuse and murders at the hands of mom's 'live in boyfriend' are common. Liberals won't like the intrusion into THEIR lives - but it's a health issue - and we all need to know... right? Also, doctors need to ask about illegal drug usage - that's a threat to children. Liberals will hate that one.

The only way to get control-freak mean-spirited liberals to stop this is to do it back to them. Then the press will jump in - totally outraged about invasion of privacy ... and we'll win at the same time.

12 posted on 07/03/2012 6:25:22 AM PDT by GOPJ (Way to go Kraft Foods. I now associate your brand with anal sex.(Oreo cookies) Freeper agere_contra)
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To: WildHighlander57

I would teach my children that they are not to say anything about what mom and dad own.


13 posted on 07/03/2012 6:25:22 AM PDT by WildHighlander57 ((WildHighlander57 returning after lurking since 2000))
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To: MachIV

I’ll get another doctor. His politics don’t belong in my healthcare anymore than do Obama’s, and the rest of the Leftisphere’s.


14 posted on 07/03/2012 6:25:38 AM PDT by rockinqsranch (Dems, Libs, Socialists, call 'em what you will, they ALL have fairies livin' in their trees.)
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To: Dr. Sivana

“I would ask him for details about intimacy with his wife ... it’s just as pertinent. “

Or ‘Life Partner’

Gay-friendly doctors

The Leader in LGBT Health for 25 years

The Gay and Lesbian Medical Association (GLMA) is the world’s largest and oldest association of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) health care professionals. GLMA was founded in 1981 as the American Association of Physicians for Human Rights with the mission of ensuring equality in health care for LGBT individuals and health care professionals.


15 posted on 07/03/2012 6:26:21 AM PDT by KeyLargo
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To: marktwain

Another nanny ruling from a feminized judiciary including the bald headed ones too or those with shriveled testicle syndrome—a side effect malady associated with demented liberalism disorder.


16 posted on 07/03/2012 6:28:14 AM PDT by tflabo (Truth or tyranny)
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To: Straight8
Do the patient have to answer?

Apparently not, however...

They cited the example of an Ocala pediatrician who told a couple to find a new doctor because the couple refused to answer questions about whether they owned guns and how they were stored.

So if you don't - depending on the doc - you may be looking...
'Course if your doc's that much of an a'hole, do you want him poking around on your body and making life and death decisions on your behalf?

17 posted on 07/03/2012 6:31:17 AM PDT by grobdriver (Proud Member, Party of NO! Nobama, No Way, No How!)
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To: marktwain

Time for our tyrranical judges to ditch their black robes in favor of evolved commie pink.


18 posted on 07/03/2012 6:31:31 AM PDT by tflabo (Truth or tyranny)
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To: rockinqsranch
Ding...ding....ding! We have a winner. I respect the Dr.’s right to free speech and I value the free market system. If the Dr. offends me by overstepping his bounds, I find another Dr.
19 posted on 07/03/2012 6:32:35 AM PDT by liberalh8ter (If Barack has a memory like a steel trap, why can't he remember what the Constitution says?)
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To: marktwain
Simple remedy..walk out the door if your pediatrician asks about guns in the house and find someone else. Also pass along that information to others. These nitwits will soon see their folly in dropped income.
20 posted on 07/03/2012 6:32:49 AM PDT by The Great RJ
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To: marktwain

Let em ask. Anyone stupid enough to provide information that is self-destructive is a fool indeed.


21 posted on 07/03/2012 6:34:21 AM PDT by Neoliberalnot (Marxism works well only with the uneducated and the unarmed.)
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To: GOPJ
Doctors should ask if parents have 'overnight guests' - and how often. Child rapes, abuse and murders at the hands of mom's 'live in boyfriend' are common. Liberals won't like the intrusion into THEIR lives - but it's a health issue - and we all need to know... right? Also, doctors need to ask about illegal drug usage - that's a threat to children. Liberals will hate that one.

Good point of view. Why did they select only 'guns'?

Because they're only interested in TAKING OUR PROTECTION AWAY, NOT IN PROTECTING KIDS OR PEOPLE'S SAFETY.

22 posted on 07/03/2012 6:38:22 AM PDT by TribalPrincess2U (54,000,000 0bama's people on welfare and food stamps?)
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To: marktwain

PA: Are there any guns in your home?
Me: None of your business.
PA: I’ll put that down as a yes.
Me: That was not my answer. If it shows up anywhere else, I will sue you.
PA: Uh....
Me: Leave it blank.

I got another doctor immediately. They are a dime a dozen these days.


23 posted on 07/03/2012 6:44:30 AM PDT by buffaloguy
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To: marktwain
(doctor) Lastly, do you own firearms or keep any stored in your home?

(patient) Certainly not. Do you still have sexual fantasies about livestock?

(doctor) Gasp! How dare you!

(patient) Yes or no, this information is relevant to your ability to provide clear and factual medical advice Doctor. Answer the question, are you still engaging in bestiality or not?


Give the overstepping punks a little of their own back. It'll do them a world of good.
24 posted on 07/03/2012 6:44:56 AM PDT by Dr.Zoidberg (With (R)epublicans like these, who needs (D)emocrats?)
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To: marktwain

All well and good, but who is following the rule of law—the executive branch or glorious AG?


25 posted on 07/03/2012 6:46:42 AM PDT by Neoliberalnot (Marxism works well only with the uneducated and the unarmed.)
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To: Straight8

Well, the a$$holes on the SCROTUM (formerly known as the SCOTUS)ruled that it is our First Amendment rights to lie, so don’t tell the truth. Or if consider lying a sin, just give them these letters: NOYFB.

Instruct your children to do the same.


26 posted on 07/03/2012 6:52:35 AM PDT by NTHockey (Rules of engagement #1: Take no prisoners)
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To: marktwain

Patient to Doctor:”Do you still beat your wife”


27 posted on 07/03/2012 6:53:21 AM PDT by libertarian27 (Check my profile page for the FReeper Online Cookbook 2011)
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To: marktwain
There's a simple fix for this: carry one of THESE FORMS every time you visit a doctor, and ask the following questions:

1. Who provides your liability/malpractice insurance ?

2. What is your agent's name and phone number ?

3. Will your insurance be happy with you when they find you've been dispensing advice outside your trained and certified area ?

Works every time. . .

28 posted on 07/03/2012 7:07:27 AM PDT by Salgak (Acme Lasers presents: The Energizer Border. I **DARE** you to cross it. . . .)
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To: marktwain

Do I own a gun? What’s a gun???


29 posted on 07/03/2012 7:12:03 AM PDT by varmintman
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To: Straight8
Do the patient have to answer?

Only at the point of a gun. And even then....Hell no!

30 posted on 07/03/2012 7:16:20 AM PDT by Bloody Sam Roberts (My dog, yes. My wife, maybe. My gun....NEVER!)
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To: WildHighlander57
I would teach my children that they are not to say anything about what mom and dad own.

I just told my kids to say, if asked, that they don't know, but they will tell me (their Dad) that they were asked.

31 posted on 07/03/2012 7:16:37 AM PDT by jeffc (Welcome to the United Socialist States of America)
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To: tflabo
Another nanny ruling from a feminized judiciary including the bald headed ones too or those with shriveled testicle syndrome—a side effect malady associated with demented liberalism disorder.

This isn't a "nanny ruling," the law that was struck down was a "nanny law." I don't need the government protecting me from a doctor's questions. If a doctor asked me (or my children) about gun ownership, I would refuse to answer. If the doctor persisted, I would find a new doctor. No government intervention needed.

32 posted on 07/03/2012 7:39:05 AM PDT by Conscience of a Conservative
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To: marktwain
I and my friends are getting just about tired of Federal judges taking our rights.

The next Congress better use Article III to take out some of these judges, or they are going to be TAKEN OUT another way.

33 posted on 07/03/2012 7:58:59 AM PDT by backwoods-engineer (I will vote against ANY presidential candidate who had non-citizen parents.)
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To: backwoods-engineer

The judge said the law was too vague.

so we make it very very very specific.

we can’t just knee jerk. Those miami doctors are real political kooks. The miami doctors are always in TH groveling for dollars for their pet projects.

Just read the law and revise it in the next session.

Doctors who violate the rules risk losing their license.


34 posted on 07/03/2012 8:06:09 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: liberalh8ter

How about this.

If a doctor elects to ask about firearms, they are ineligible to be self insured and must obtain malpractice insurance.

AND

they are ineligible to have hospital privileges at any hospital recieving state money or recieve state funds for their pracitices.

AND

insurance companies are free to deny coverage to the doctor for any liability arising from such inquiries.


35 posted on 07/03/2012 8:10:36 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: marktwain
But the judge chided the legislature for relying upon anecdotal evidence like that rather than empirical evidence of an alleged problem.

As much as we could use more resistance to legislating-for-the-hell-of-it, I bet this guy doesn't object to it most of the time. And on this issue, if there isn't a problem, what harm will the legislation do?

36 posted on 07/03/2012 8:17:31 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: TribalPrincess2U
Good point of view. Why did they select only 'guns'? Because they're only interested in TAKING OUR PROTECTION AWAY, NOT IN PROTECTING KIDS OR PEOPLE'S SAFETY.

BINGO

37 posted on 07/03/2012 8:20:08 AM PDT by GOPJ (Way to go Kraft Foods. I now associate your brand with anal sex.(Oreo cookies) Freeper agere_contra)
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To: marktwain
lawyers for the Florida chapters of the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Academy of Family Physicians and the American College of Physicians argued that what they called the “physician gag law” prevented doctors from doing their job.

Doctor's jobs involve asking you about non-health-related issues in your personal life? News to me. No wonder they're always bitching about not having sufficient time with each patient. Maybe if they just look at the sore throat that brought the patient in and skip the social engineering, their schedule would be easier on them.

38 posted on 07/03/2012 8:20:36 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: GOPJ
Doctors should ask if parents have 'overnight guests' - and how often. Child rapes, abuse and murders at the hands of mom's 'live in boyfriend' are common. Liberals won't like the intrusion into THEIR lives - but it's a health issue - and we all need to know... right? Also, doctors need to ask about illegal drug usage - that's a threat to children. Liberals will hate that one.

Does anyone in your household ever place their genitals in your rectum or anyone elses? This is a serious health hazard. How many mommies do you have? Daddies?

39 posted on 07/03/2012 8:24:20 AM PDT by Still Thinking (Freedom is NOT a loophole!)
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To: marktwain

Agreed. Further, it turns the children into spies agaist their parents.


40 posted on 07/03/2012 8:28:51 AM PDT by AEMILIUS PAULUS (It is a shame that when these people give a riot)
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To: Still Thinking

Good questions - I’m sure liberals will understand we’re only doing it for the children.


41 posted on 07/03/2012 8:35:34 AM PDT by GOPJ (Way to go Kraft Foods. I now associate your brand with anal sex.(Oreo cookies) Freeper agere_contra)
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To: Dr.Zoidberg

id want to know if they are sodomites, how many sexual partners they have had in the last 6 months, etc. it has a direct bearing on whether i want to be exposed to their fithly, degenerate practice.


42 posted on 07/03/2012 8:36:13 AM PDT by nonsporting
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To: Conscience of a Conservative
If the doctor persisted, I would find a new doctor. No government intervention needed.

You are assuming that the government will allow you to make those choices. It is not at all clear that you will have those choices under Obamacare.

43 posted on 07/03/2012 8:38:13 AM PDT by marktwain
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To: marktwain

Gun control’s sole purpose is to take away weapons from white folks....it sure does not work when used in the urban inner cities


44 posted on 07/03/2012 8:48:29 AM PDT by SeminoleCounty (Sad....George Zimmerman is in jail for rightfully defending himself...while Eric Holder walks free)
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To: marktwain

Last time I visited my doctor, he asked about my smoking.

You know I smoke, I told him. So why ask?

The feds demand the information, he said. Now, I have a privately paid Blue Cross plan, funded out-of-pocket with no government assistance, so it’s none of their damn business.

The feds will screw with his other insurance payments if he doesn’t provide the information, he told me.

The Death Panels are now compiling information about you. Be forewarned.


45 posted on 07/03/2012 9:54:45 AM PDT by DNME (Prepare ... quickly. Time grows short.)
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To: Da Coyote

Simply ask the Doctor what his/her technical training with regard to firearms is & if the Doctor declines to answer ask the Doctor if their malpractice insurance carrier knows that they are practicing outside of their area of knowledge & would he /she mind if you told them.


46 posted on 07/03/2012 12:52:49 PM PDT by Nebr FAL owner
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To: marktwain
Just tell your doctor that you have access to guns, knives, enough pills to kill an elephant, several cliffs, a busy highway, carbon monoxide, razor blades, chain saws, rope, etc.

Answer as you wish, but to create a law, that is just dumb.

47 posted on 07/03/2012 12:57:51 PM PDT by LuvFreeRepublic ( (#withNewt))
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To: DNME
My doctor usually says.....guess its useless to tell you to quit smoking.....he knows me well.....He also knows I pay for my own medication, so before he gives me a prescription he brings out this gizmo from his pocket to check on generics for me....He knows when I am really sick, he walksinto the room and says***you look terrible***then he listens closely to what I tell him....doesn't pre judge before talking to me about what may be wrong...

I am an old nurse and we don't make great patients, but he said one time, you know your body better than I do, so I've been patient with you...we were having a debate about weather I needed a colonoscopy or not.....he won that one..

He hinted that I night need high bloodpressure meds...on the way home I stopped at the drug store and bought a BP cuff and took my own BP for a month until my next visit...and handed him my BP log....he said OK bring me in your cuff so I can test it against mine in the office...I did, he checked it against his cuff and we never talked about BP again....I love my doctor.....

48 posted on 07/03/2012 4:13:02 PM PDT by goat granny
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To: marktwain

Obamacare=A nation of liars (and not just on this).....on weight, how fast one drives and on and on.


49 posted on 07/03/2012 6:22:19 PM PDT by Red in Blue PA (Read SCOTUS Castle Rock vs Gonzales before dialing 911!)
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To: Dr. Sivana

Answer questions related to MEDICAL issues only. Can they throw you in jail for lying to a doctor? It’s not as though he was a cop;)


50 posted on 07/03/2012 7:20:40 PM PDT by Frank_2001
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