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Did the police and fire departments sink Stockton?
TheTransom ^ | July 12,2012 | Ben Domenech

Posted on 07/12/2012 7:13:50 AM PDT by Hojczyk

I’ll gladly pay you Tuesday doesn’t seem like such a good idea on Wednesday: how public worker pay and pensions doomed Stockton. http://vlt.tc/d7y

“How does a bankrupt city pay its public safety workers twice the median household income of the area’s residents? More important, why haven’t the city manager and council stopped this wage bonanza? In Stockton, California, public safety workers earn on average 126 percent of the maximum salary and at least 200 percent of the minimum wage for their respective wage categories.

The California State Controller’s Office has all the data, and it’s not pretty. Stockton’s median household income was $50,011 in 2010. In contrast, the average total wage paid to a city police worker was $93,111. For employees of the fire department, it was $110,303. Admittedly, these are dangerous professions, but surely they are not so dangerous as to require pay of double the median household income of the entire community…

Stockton, in its bankruptcy filing, admits that the city has had little-to-no success in getting the pay of its public safety workers under control, and these expenses consume about 76 percent of the general fund.” Spreadsheet of the public worker compensation is here. http://vlt.tc/d7z

(Excerpt) Read more at thetransom.org ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 07/12/2012 7:13:57 AM PDT by Hojczyk
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To: Hojczyk

Articles...

http://blogs.reuters.com/muniland/2012/07/11/did-the-police-and-fire-departments-sink-stockton/

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AgUldNJ-sOg_dFNRcVVaUVJPa2NFOHNBNzh4SUVXd1E#gid=0


2 posted on 07/12/2012 7:16:00 AM PDT by Hojczyk
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To: Hojczyk

It is my understanding that construction work is more dangerous that either police of firemen. Does anyone know if this statistic is still true. Yet we always hear about the dangerous work of police and firemen.


3 posted on 07/12/2012 7:17:46 AM PDT by Citizen Tom Paine (An old sailor sends)
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To: Hojczyk

If Stockton, or any city, was rated as the safest place for people to live, it wouldn’t bother me if the police were the highest payed in the country. But Stockton? One of highest crime rates in the state. What are people getting for their money?


4 posted on 07/12/2012 7:21:35 AM PDT by RC2 (Buy American and support the Wounded Warrior Project whenever possible.)
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To: Hojczyk

Are fire fighters and police really that dangerous...

US Workplace Fatalities 2010

#1 COMMERCIAL FISHING:
116 Deaths per 100,000 in 2010;

#2 through #10 Most Dangerous for 2010
.

Job Title and Number of Deaths per 100,000 People Employed

.

2. Loggers and related job titles: 91.9/100,000 — Same place rank as 2008.
.

3. Aircraft Pilots and Flight Engineers: 70.6 per 100,000 — Up from #6 in 2008.
.

4. Farmers and Ranchers: 41.4 per 100,000 — Same place rank as 2008.
.

5. Mining Machine Operators: 38.7 per 100,000 — Up from #8 in 2008. See: The Millfield Mining Disaster.
.

6. Roofers: 32.4 per 100,000 — Up from #7 in 2008, becoming more deadly.
.

7. Refuse and Recyclable Materials Collectors: 29.8 per 100,000 — Down from #5 in 2008
.

8. Driver/Sales Workers and Truck Drivers: 21.8 per 100,000 — Up from #17 in 2008.

9. Industrial Machinery Installation, Repair and Maintenance Workers: 20.3 per 100,000

10. Police and Sheriff’s Officers: 18.0 per 100,000 — Up from #12 in 2008.


5 posted on 07/12/2012 7:22:14 AM PDT by Hojczyk
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To: Hojczyk

The city has had little-to-no success in getting the pay of its public safety workers under control.

The idiot safety workers demands will put them out of work or set a small pay day.
Hacks now feel the pain of alowing contracts for votes,you get what you allow.


6 posted on 07/12/2012 7:23:12 AM PDT by Vaduz
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To: Hojczyk

how much were they spending on welfare and ‘the arts’?


7 posted on 07/12/2012 7:25:07 AM PDT by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: Hojczyk

Wonder where drug dealers rate on that scale.


8 posted on 07/12/2012 7:27:47 AM PDT by lag along
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To: Citizen Tom Paine

I am familiar with the Line of Duty Death information for Firefighters. The number has settled near or under 100. YOu can goggle LODD and find the information for LE and FF


9 posted on 07/12/2012 7:27:57 AM PDT by UB355 (Slower traffic keep right)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
"It is my understanding that construction work is more dangerous that either police of firemen. Does anyone know if this statistic is still true. Yet we always hear about the dangerous work of police and firemen."

I don't know how accurate the data is, but according to this site:

http://www.odmp.org/agency/3723-stockton-police-department-california

...the City of Stockton PD has had 10 fatalities...since 1854.

10 posted on 07/12/2012 7:29:18 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine

Another dangerous profession is fisherman...especially in arctic waters. I guess some see the difference between police and other more dangerous occupations is the level of personal interaction between the police and individuals.

The biggest difference contributing to bankrupty IMO is pension issues. I don’t know of a construction worker who has a 20 or 25 year career and out on pension system albeit being a police official is not as dangerous as some others.


11 posted on 07/12/2012 7:31:03 AM PDT by Mouton (Voting is an opiate of the electorate. Nothing changes no matter who wins..)
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To: Hojczyk
8. Driver/Sales Workers and Truck Drivers: 21.8 per 100,000

Talk about a group of people that do not get paid enough...

12 posted on 07/12/2012 7:32:18 AM PDT by gunsequalfreedom (Conservative is not a label of convenience. It is a guide to your actions.)
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To: Hojczyk

Nope. The citizens are to blame. We have a representative democracy. If those dipsticks in Stockton want to fix this, they need to quit electing free-spending Democrats.

Everybody likes the Democrat’s free pony rides until somebody has to pay for the feed and clean up the horse crap.


13 posted on 07/12/2012 7:35:01 AM PDT by blueunicorn6 ("A crack shot and a good dancer")
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To: RC2
"If Stockton, or any city, was rated as the safest place for people to live, it wouldn’t bother me if the police were the highest payed in the country."

Around here, every year when the FBI releases its crime stats for the previous year, our local police chief is like Punxsutawney Phil on Groundhog Day. He pops his head out of a hole, looks around and if the local crime rates went down, it was due to his, "aggressive new police initiatives, the quality of the officers and proactive law enforcement." If on the other hand, the stats go up, it was no doubt, a "reflection of changing socio-economic conditions," or possibly, "budget cuts."

14 posted on 07/12/2012 7:36:38 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
It is my understanding that construction work is more dangerous that either police of firemen. Does anyone know if this statistic is still true. Yet we always hear about the dangerous work of police and firemen.

A lot depends on where you do your work. A New Jersey State Trooper is in harm's way a lot more than a county sheriff in Mayberry, NC, where the life expectancy is 86.

A fireman in NYC risks more than one in Hooterville.

On the other hand, a construction worker on the CN Tower in Toronto is more at risk than a palooka who pours sidewalks in Dyersville, Iowa.

All that said, there is something more chilling for a widow to worry that her husband died at the hands of a hoodlum pulled over for speeding than hearing that he fell off the roof. Both are real possibilities, but the first one will be in the head of a policeman's wife every day.
15 posted on 07/12/2012 7:37:06 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana
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To: Hojczyk
Plus, as I understand; Stockton floated a large bond issue to pay for waterfront improvements that were supposed to attract business.

Problem is, it's in California; who is doing everything it can to hurt businesses. Plus it's the Central Valley. Great weather, I lived there 21 years; but the CV does not attract outside wealth like Malibu or Sausilito

Now they have to pay the bond, and no cash flow to pay for it.

Watch who you vote for, I tell my liberal friends in CA.

16 posted on 07/12/2012 7:44:34 AM PDT by cicero2k
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
It is my understanding that construction work is more dangerous that either police of firemen. Does anyone know if this statistic is still true. Yet we always hear about the dangerous work of police and firemen.

Lumberjack and deep sea fishing are the big two. Fireman is fairly dangerous, like construction, in the top ten.

Police is 27th most dangerous, just below landscape gardeners.

17 posted on 07/12/2012 7:47:24 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Literals will believe anything.)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
It is my understanding that construction work is more dangerous that either police of firemen. Does anyone know if this statistic is still true. Yet we always hear about the dangerous work of police and firemen.

About 90% of firemen never go to a fire but they are damn good domino and card players. Most also have second jobs for their many days off.

Most policemen are never in harms way, either.

18 posted on 07/12/2012 7:50:01 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot
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To: blueunicorn6

I agree.. the problem also lies in the fact that this 40 to 43% voting block of gov workers, including state, and local, is very much inclined to vote.

can you just imagine if the dems in the federal gov had their way and had over 50% of the general population working for the state in one or another?

good lord it would be all over... which I kind of think it is anyway..


19 posted on 07/12/2012 7:52:33 AM PDT by Chuzzlewit
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To: Citizen Tom Paine

‘It is my understanding that construction work is more dangerous that either police of firemen. Does anyone know if this statistic is still true. Yet we always hear about the dangerous work of police and firemen.’

There are hundreds of thousands of us who work in the power and semiconductor businesses where plant buildings have the highest ratings for chemical, fire, and health hazards. There have been deaths by electrocution. Folks have died by entering closed spaces which have filled with pure nitrogen.

I worked on the third floor of a building whose second floor contained all high voltage electrical transformers and piping for silane gas, phosphorous, arsenic, boron, chlorine, and many others. We all took a risk by going to work every day.

However, our safety record improved continuously and not at the expense of freedoms. Good engineering design and training eliminated hazards.

I think lack of training and procedures which give these city workers an easy way out is part of the problem.

We didn’t get any higher pay for working in these places. No such thing as hazard or combat pay.

We also had our own hazmat and security. They were better qualified to work in these buildings because they had the training, knowledge of the hazards, and were local and responded ASAP. They were our coworkers who were cross-trained.


20 posted on 07/12/2012 7:53:49 AM PDT by AlmaKing
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To: Hojczyk
. Driver/Sales Workers and Truck Drivers: 21.8 per 100,000 — Up from #17 in 2008.

Up from 17 to 8 from 2008....

So how is this possible with new trucks and all the safety regulations in place.....?

21 posted on 07/12/2012 7:56:00 AM PDT by spokeshave (The only people better off today than 4 years ago are the Prisoners at Guantanamo.)
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To: Hojczyk

Every public employee belongs to their public union, and they run the city, not the other way around. Who can afford it?


22 posted on 07/12/2012 8:00:07 AM PDT by pallis
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To: Hojczyk
The economic relevance of "hazard" is zilch at their pay levels. Regardless of how dangerous it is, if it wasn't a closed market, there'd be a line 5000 people long to do the same work for half their existing pay, hell, probably for a quarter of it.

If you feel police of fire work is to dangerous to do for less than 100K, then you need to find another career because there are a whole lot of people who don't feel it is for a lot less, and the only reason they aren't doing the job at this point is because it's a tightly closed shop.

23 posted on 07/12/2012 8:11:37 AM PDT by Axenolith (Government blows, and that which governs least, blows least...)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine
According to Bureau of Labor Statistics, police and fire are not even in the top ten. The #1 most dangerous job is working on a fishing boat. General construction is down around #10, below structural steel workers and roofers (who could be considered construction).

Working as a night-shift convenience store clerk put you more in danger of being shot than being a cop does.

24 posted on 07/12/2012 8:22:00 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (If I can't be persuasive, I at least hope to be fun.)
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To: Hojczyk

Dollars to donuts several megabuck Stocton firefighters live in Honolulu or Tucson or someplace like that. The Cleveland fire administration back in December was scrambling to wipe the egg off their faces when the Plain Dealer revealed that one of the city’s six-figure firefighters lived in San Diego:

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/12/cleveland_threatens_to_discipl.html


25 posted on 07/12/2012 8:27:58 AM PDT by Spartan79 (I view great cities as pestilential to the morals, the health, and the liberties of man.)
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To: Citizen Tom Paine

Ten most dangerous jobs...

1. Logger

2. Pilot

3. Fisher

4. Iron/Steel Worker

5. Garbage Collector

6. Farmer/Rancher

7. Roofer

8. Electrical Power Installer/Repairer

9. Sales, Delivery, and Other Truck Driver


26 posted on 07/12/2012 8:31:12 AM PDT by babygene (Figures don't lie, but liars can figure...)
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To: spokeshave
"how is this possible "

New first time (inexperienced) drivers because of low driver retention on the road with many other new, inexperienced drivers of all sorts...

27 posted on 07/12/2012 8:40:39 AM PDT by Dust in the Wind (U S Troops Rock)
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To: pallis

Speaking entirely from a California perspective, police unions have very little, if any power within a city and certainly do not “run the city”. In most cities, the police “union” only exists because the city needs a face to negotiate with at the time of contract issues. Most cities run on a two year budget and at the time the budget is compiled the city will determine it’s stance at the negotiations and have maximum expense that will be of issue during negotiations.

The problem with police salaries is simply a matter of supply and demand, which is exacerbated by a limited labor pool, namely those who would choose to be police officer.

Also in California, police officers recieve a certifcate from the state, a sort of license, which allows them to transfer laterally to any department in the state. Additionally, most cities contract with CalPers, which allows the officer to maintain his/her pension benefit, when if they choose to transfer.

So to stay competetive a neighboring city must have comperable salaries and benefits, if not, officers are often enticed to go where the compensation is better.

As to who can afford it, that is also being taken care of, as hiring in local agencies has ground to a halt. Contracts will be changed and departments will get smaller.


28 posted on 07/12/2012 9:03:13 AM PDT by barney10
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To: Hojczyk

Competent police and fire protection is expensive, period! Pay and benefits are calculated based on the pay and benefits of surrounding municipalities (similarly situated).
Although, perhaps, the fatality rates are not immediately as apparent as those of fisherman; you can do without that Alaskan King Crab leg. Can you do without firemen, when your home is on fire? Instead of looking at fatality rates, perhaps, you ought to look at life expectancy after separation from the job. There are too many issues involved to reach summary conclusions about any of this. Nothing is ever as simple as it appears. Stockton, like so many other cities run by liberals, got drunk on spending; and when the housing bubble burst got caught in the lurch!


29 posted on 07/12/2012 9:11:41 AM PDT by old school
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To: Dr. Sivana
“...the first one will be in the head of a policeman's wife every day.”

Of course, the other widow will simply forget and move on.

30 posted on 07/12/2012 9:26:27 AM PDT by starlifter (Pullum sapit)
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To: AlmaKing
I worked on the third floor of a building whose second floor contained all high voltage electrical transformers and piping for silane gas, phosphorous, arsenic, boron, chlorine, and many others. We all took a risk by going to work every day.

That's how T.I. built their semiconductor plants in Dallas and Houston, years ago. I worked in a CAD development department on the first floor where they had lucite 'hats' for the computer racks because the computers had previously been destroyed by burst pipes in the ceiling, serving the second floor (support level) and third floor (semiconductor production level).

31 posted on 07/12/2012 9:27:27 AM PDT by Erasmus (Zwischen des Teufels und des tiefen, blauen Meers)
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To: starlifter
“...the first one will be in the head of a policeman's wife every day.”
Of course, the other widow will simply forget and move on.


I'm sorry for not making myself more clear. I meant every day that he goes to work. The wife who sees her husband off to pull cars over on the Garden State Parkway has a different set of worries than the wife who sees her husband off to work on Interstate 95.

I speak as one whose brother-in-law is in road construction. Even though a construction site accident is a very real possibility, it doesn't fire the imagination in the same way as pulling over or persuing someone who won't be taken alive.
32 posted on 07/12/2012 9:48:50 AM PDT by Dr. Sivana
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To: Hojczyk; Citizen Tom Paine

About 500 firefighters die a year from job related injuries. It’s very consistent over time.


33 posted on 07/12/2012 9:57:10 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: camle

And what were they spending because of crimes committed by illegals? (And welfare and free medical care and public schooling for illegals’ kids.)


34 posted on 07/12/2012 9:59:15 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: little jeremiah

At least the employees provide soem level fo service. besides beign scapegoated.


35 posted on 07/12/2012 10:12:42 AM PDT by camle (keep an open mind and someone will fill it full of something for you)
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To: camle

Yes, this is true, but being “scapegoated” is not.

BTW a close family member recently trained for vol. firefighter and first responder; he makes a tiny amount of $ for his work, not really enough to pay for gas driving to the station. So I learned about the 500 firefighter deaths a year from the materials he studies.


36 posted on 07/12/2012 11:49:13 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: camle

PS - public employee unions should be illegal.


37 posted on 07/12/2012 11:53:01 AM PDT by little jeremiah (Courage is not simply one of the virtues, but the form of every virtue at the testing point. CSLewis)
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To: Mind-numbed Robot
"About 90% of firemen never go to a fire.."

How do you know that?

38 posted on 07/13/2012 4:26:25 PM PDT by perfect stranger (Nobama)
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To: perfect stranger
How do you know that?

I used to be one. In two years we went to two false alarms. However, it can be dangerous. I lost a high school friend who ran into a burning building and never came out. That was before air tanks and our training never mentioned the absence of air to breathe in many burning buildings.

I don't have statistics to prove my point but I do have my own experience and that of friends and family members who are/were also firemen. We were a medium size city with about twenty fire stations.

39 posted on 07/14/2012 10:32:01 AM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot
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