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Cory Booker’s Libertarian Case Against the Drug War
Townhall.com ^ | July 18, 2012 | Daniel J. Mitchell

Posted on 07/18/2012 10:17:07 AM PDT by Kaslin

I’ve already confessed to man-crushes on Chris Christie, Marco Rubio, Rand Paul, Ron Johnson, and (or course) the Gipper, but it’s time for me to cross partisan and racial boundaries and announce my man-crush on Cory Booker.

From the Huffington Post, here’s what the Newark Mayor had to say about the failed War on Drugs.

Newark, N.J. Mayor Cory Booker took to Reddit Sunday to criticize the war on drugs, saying it was ineffective and “represents big overgrown government at its worst.” “The so-called War on Drugs has not succeeded in making significant reductions in drug use, drug arrests or violence,” the Democrat wrote during the Reddit “ask me anything” chat. “We are pouring huge amounts of our public resources into this current effort that are bleeding our public treasury and unnecessarily undermining human potential.” Booker then called drug arrests a “game.” “My police in Newark are involved in an almost ridiculous game of arresting the same people over and over again and when you talk to these men they have little belief that there is help or hope for them to break out of this cycle,” he wrote.

At the risk of stating the obvious, this doesn’t mean that anyone should use drugs. I’ve led a very boring life, for instance, and have never tried any illegal drugs.

But Mayor Booker is right. Like Ron Paul, Pat Robertson, Richard Branson, and Gary Johnson, he’s figured out that the Drug War is mostly a vehicle to expand the size and power of government. It’s why we have fascist asset forfeiture laws and costly money laundering laws.

Oh, and by the way, the Drug War has totally failed in stopping illegal drug use. Though it has enriched organized crime, so big government isn’t the only beneficiary.

To learn more about the failed War on Drugs, I’d recommend this video and this video. But mostly, I suggest you read these two horrific stories.

P.S. As you can see from this post, there actually are political jokes about money laundering laws. I haven’t run across any about the Drug War, but I’ll be sure to post them if they show up in my inbox.

P.P.S. Here’s a very funny video featuring Cory Booker and Chris Christie. Kudos to both of them for having senses of humor.

A Cartoon Showing the Logic (or lack thereof) of Keynesian Economics

I’ve run across very few good cartoons about Keynesian economics. If my aging memory is correct, I’ve only posted two of them.

But at least they’re both very good. We have one involving Obama, sharks, and a lifeboat, and another one involving an overburdened jockey.

Now we have a third cartoon to add to the collection.

To provide a bit of additional background, the cartoon is channeling Bastiat’s broken-window insight that make-work projects don’t create prosperity, as explained in this short video narrated by Tom Palmer.

I make similar points in this post mocking Krugman’s wish for an alien invasion and this post explaining why Obama’s green energy programs lead to net job destruction.

P.S. This Wizard of Id parody is the best cartoon about economics, but it teaches about labor markets rather than Keynesianism.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: bastiat; drugs; drugwar; warondrugs; wod; wodlist; wosd

1 posted on 07/18/2012 10:17:09 AM PDT by Kaslin
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To: Kaslin

WTH, “Man Crush”??? This mentality is why dipshitte politicians get away with murder.


2 posted on 07/18/2012 10:42:48 AM PDT by iopscusa (El Vaquero. (SC Lowcountry Cowboy))
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To: iopscusa

In before the first drug warrior claiming conservatism means supporting big government programs to make people act in accordance with their beliefs, no matter how expensive, how much the para-military thugs are a danger to democracy, no matter how much the Constitution is destroyed, and no matter how fruitless it is to attempt to protect idiots from themselves.

Also, in before the tear-filled post about how drugs killed some random love one, despite the illogic in supporting a drug war that clearly failed to protect said idiot loved one against him or herself.

And, in pre-rebuttal, no I don’t smoke pot and never have, and think those who do are idiots. I just don’t want to spend my tax money in a pointless attempt to keep them from doing drugs.


3 posted on 07/18/2012 10:57:06 AM PDT by TheThirdRuffian (I will never vote for Romney. Ever.)
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To: TheThirdRuffian

Society might survive legal marijuana. But legal hard drugs? Look at the societies that tolerated them: America in the 19th century, pre-communist China, Iran until the late 1950s. All had HUGE addict populations - the Iranians still do.

The drug war is a necessary evil. I wish it wasn’t, but it is.


4 posted on 07/18/2012 11:08:07 AM PDT by I Shall Endure
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To: Kaslin

The sick mind and worldview of John Maynard Keynes (Worldview matters): He was a sodomite who constantly engaged in homosexual orgies where little boys were used. Yes—he was a well-known pederast—everyone knew it. In some instances, these sodomites castrated the boys (in foreign countries where they sold their boys because of the poverty). That is the mind of a person who embraced Marxist economics and forced it into England and America with the help of socialists/progressives who were Fabian Socialists to destroy Western Civilization.

Anyone who practices Keynesian economics has the same worldview as Keynes—probably a big homosexual (sodomy) “rights” person—a Godless one and is working for an Ameritopia. They are EVIL.

Ideas matter.

Laws should NEVER promote EVIL behavior—they no longer are Just Law. Morality is essential to “Just Law” since Justice is the first and most important Virtue for freedom and equality.

The Holmesian irrational idea that morality and law have to be separated is a lie (and Marxist). All Just Law is about promoting a Virtuous people-—which is needed (Aristotle, Cicero, Founders) for a free Republic. Without Virtue, there can only be slavery. With allowing government to promote evil behavior—like drug use for children which destroys their brain and emotional health—it destroys a rational populace—and creates an evil dependency on government.

Drug use destroys the brain, especially in children. Legalizing murder would be equivalent to legalizing the destruction of the brain-—the death of logic and Reason and a responsible and moral populace. Again—without morality—there is no Freedom. People using drugs are immoral and irresponsible and costly to civil society. They drain the wealth of a country and destroy the emotional health of any children they are supposed to raise to be responsible citizens-—what Confucius said is the most important reason for existence of man. They shirk their prime responsibility—Duty—which is the essential part of citizenship in a civil society and reason for any government.

Duty (being responsible) is the necessary ingredient of citizenship and freedom from dependency. Drug users cheat, lie, steal and generally have no qualms about treating others in inhumane, unjust ways. They use others for their own selfish “needs” which are addictive. We do not want to ever encourage such evil, slavish behavior.

Besides—drug use endangers children (many have died from neglect and accidents because of druggie parents), not counting the deaths caused by being on drugs of oneself and others. The emotional damage done to children because of neglect of “druggie” selfish parents is seen in prison costs and gang activities. The medical costs are costly also. Parents HAVE to teach children to be moral......doing drugs models the opposite and teaches irresponsibility and Keynesian morality. (see first paragraph).


5 posted on 07/18/2012 11:14:27 AM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: savagesusie
We do not want to ever encourage such evil, slavish behavior

Then why in the world do we ensure that drugs will be so expensive that the habituated must necessarily resort to crime?

Then why in the world do we ensure that there will always be a profit in the trade?

Then why in the world do we ensure that the habituated will engage in the trade and push drugs to finance their expensive addiction thus encouraging such evil, slavish behavior?


6 posted on 07/18/2012 11:27:14 AM PDT by nathanbedford ("Attack, repeat, attack!" Bull Halsey)
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To: Kaslin

But Mayor Booker is right. Like Ron Paul, Pat Robertson, Richard Branson, and Gary Johnson, he’s figured out that the Drug War is mostly a vehicle to expand the size and power of government. It’s why we have fascist asset forfeiture laws and costly money laundering laws.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Total BS. All anyone needs to know about the WOD is just what kind of kooks oppose it.

There used to be a large contingent of liberal FReepers who supported legalizing dope. But I think they’ve all been zotted. Or they now know better to open their mouth about it.


7 posted on 07/18/2012 11:43:51 AM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: Responsibility2nd
Total BS. All anyone needs to know about the WOD is just what kind of kooks oppose it.

You don't need to know about the New Deal Commerce Clause, and the "substantial effects" doctrine?

I think I'll step right up and take exception to that claim.

8 posted on 07/18/2012 11:50:28 AM PDT by tacticalogic ("Oh, bother!" said Pooh, as he chambered his last round.)
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To: I Shall Endure
What is your source for claiming that 19th century America had a huge addict population?

How do you justify support for trampling the Tenth Amendment by use of the expansive Commerce Clause?

9 posted on 07/18/2012 11:56:07 AM PDT by Ken H
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To: nathanbedford

Because, since Oliver Wendell Holmes, we no longer have Justice—Rule of Law.

We have arbitrary (unjust) laws that are irrational.

We also have a severely corrupt “Justice” department. In an ideal society—we would have Justice which would give help to addicts—through programs which free them from addictions—BUT THE BETTER SOLUTION—is EDUCATION by moral parents doing their DUTY so that the addictions will never happen. Emotionally healthy parents raise emotionally healthy children who are independent and moral and fulfill all their duties.

We have allowed media and schools to promote lies and brainwash children and remove Virtue from curricula. That happened with Dewey. You need no “drug laws” with moral people—None. That is why the Founders stated that Virtue was NEEDED for a free Republic-—that idea was stated as far back as the Ancient Greeks. Marxists know to destroy civil society—you destroy Virtue—then society collapses. That is the plan stated by Cultural Marxists to bring down the US. Homosexual, Feminists, Keynesians, are all communist fronts to destroy our institutions to corrupt the people and destroy morality. When you destroy the natural family—you destroy the emotional development of the children which creates all sorts of dysfunctional behaviors and addictions.

Instill Virtue and you have no drug problem-—you get a true utopia, something that is non-existent without Virtue.

We have usurped parental authority and destroyed marriage so that parents neglect the education of their own offspring and we allow Marxist public schools to destroy Virtue (BK Eakman).

We have such an unconstitutional government involved in “education” of our children (Centralized Education creates slaves of the State (JS Mill) that there can only be a promotion of evil and unjust law—which we have now which is destroying our civil liberties and the Constitution.

You want no drug laws-—well, fine—you won’t need them, if we had “Just Law” like at our Founding== which only promoted Virtue in all our Institutions-—which gets government OUT of the welfare system (so druggies aren’t enabled to do drugs)—the school system—the parenting system—brainwashing our children, etc.

You can’t have a Socialist system like we have now promoting drug use to our children-—which is what legalization does. It is why alcohol use is so prevalent in our youth. That will just quickly collapse the society (not that that isn’t going to happen anyway if we don’t ditch the socialism).

We have allowed media to glorify all sorts of immoral behavior and normalize it. There has to be Truth in media-—ha ha —that right there is the Marxist means of destruction......our press has been controlled for a century by the Marxist/Soros type—who form our “perceptions” that drug use is cool and groovy and “fun” when it destroys people and all their important relationships and makes people slaves. (Just the type of people Marxists want Americans to be).


10 posted on 07/18/2012 12:10:10 PM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: I Shall Endure
To the extent that drugs kill, they also put an end to the problem. If you don't like that scenario, then we need to recognize addiction as a medical problem and look for treatments. The addictive personality will abuse anything, including food, so banning what addicts use does not fix the problem; it just feeds the cartelistas. Such people can be addicted to behaviors, like gambling. Governmental suppression of these is even less likely to succeed.
11 posted on 07/18/2012 12:41:35 PM PDT by BlazingArizona
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To: Responsibility2nd

The government must be correct in stating that anyone talking about the constitution or rights just might be a dangerous kook. /s


12 posted on 07/18/2012 12:43:05 PM PDT by KEVLAR
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To: Kaslin
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I’ve...never tried any illegal drugs.
You could drive an 18 wheeler through that huge hole in the wall! Nobody has ever tried any "illegal drug".
That's because there is no such thing as an "illegal drug", there are only controlled substances and actions taken with those controlled substances are what are illegal.

Simply consider the charges filed...
Manufacture of a controlled substance.
Possession of a controlled substance.
Distribution of a controlled substance.

Not one word about an "illegal drug".
What a facade and charade.

13 posted on 07/18/2012 1:11:25 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: savagesusie
promoting drug use to our children-—which is what legalization does.

Nonsense. It's legal to insult one's spouse - does that mean it's "promoted"?

14 posted on 07/18/2012 1:25:16 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: savagesusie
Emotionally healthy parents raise emotionally healthy children who are independent and moral and fulfill all their duties.
What, exactly, do you consider the "duties" of these children to be?
15 posted on 07/18/2012 1:29:06 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies
It's legal to insult one's spouse - does that mean it's "promoted"?

LOL
"No, honey, your enormous girth makes you look fat, not the dress."

Is that truth or insult?

16 posted on 07/18/2012 1:33:39 PM PDT by philman_36 (Pride breakfasted with plenty, dined with poverty, and supped with infamy. Benjamin Franklin)
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To: Responsibility2nd
There used to be a large contingent of liberal FReepers who supported legalizing dope.

Now it's just us true conservatives supporting legalized dope - against the unchanging bleatings of the nanny-statists.

17 posted on 07/18/2012 1:36:50 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: savagesusie
Drug use destroys the brain, especially in children. [...] People using drugs are immoral and irresponsible and costly to civil society. They drain the wealth of a country and destroy the emotional health of any children they are supposed to raise [...] Drug users cheat, lie, steal and generally have no qualms about treating others in inhumane, unjust ways. [...] drug use endangers children (many have died from neglect and accidents because of druggie parents), not counting the deaths caused by being on drugs of oneself and others. [...] The medical costs are costly also.

Is there any evidence that these claims are any less true of the legal drug alcohol? Should we recriminalizat that drug?

18 posted on 07/18/2012 1:43:06 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: savagesusie
"recriminalizat" -> recriminalize
19 posted on 07/18/2012 1:43:57 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

That assumes there is truth there to begin with.


20 posted on 07/18/2012 1:47:41 PM PDT by KEVLAR
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To: KEVLAR
Is there any evidence that these claims are any less true of the legal drug alcohol?

That assumes there is truth there to begin with.

Assumed only for the sake of discussion. In fact, it's largely hysterical nonsense.

21 posted on 07/18/2012 2:01:18 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

Now how’d I know you’d show up here?

Just like humblegunner is on every blog-pimp thread, you are always on every anti-drug thread with your pro-dope propaganda.


22 posted on 07/18/2012 2:08:16 PM PDT by Responsibility2nd (NO LIBS. This Means Liberals and (L)libertarians! Same Thing. NO LIBS!!)
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To: I Shall Endure
We do have current and historical estimates of addiction rates from the US government. The DEA says that 0.5% of Americans were addicted to either cocaine or opium in 1900:

By 1900, about one American in 200 was either a cocaine or opium addict.

http://www.usdoj.gov/dea/demand/speakout/06so.htm

____________________________________________________________

...the Office of National Drug Control Policy pegs the current number of cocaine addicts at around 3.6 million people.

http://www.thecyn.com/cocaine-rehab/cocaine-addiction-united-states.html

"For example, numbers like heroin addiction. You can find numbers that go from 255,000 up to the one I'm currently using, 980,000, if I remember the last time we updated it, and those are all valid scientific studies." --Drug Czar Mcaffrey

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/drugs/symposium/panelmccaffrey.html

____________________________________________________________

Adding the ONDCP numbers for cocaine and heroin addiction together yields an addiction rate of about 1.5%. So after a century of increasingly aggressive prohibition, our own government is telling us that addiction has gone from 0.5% in 1900 to 1.5% in 2000.

23 posted on 07/18/2012 2:37:01 PM PDT by Ken H
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

It already is illegal for children to use alcohol, so it is controlled. Alcohol does not impair the brain or damage it, if used moderately—in fact, alcohol can be beneficial. Drugs that damage the brain and impair logic and reason and ethical behavior need to be discouraged. Temperance needs to be encouraged. I drank beer when nursing my children :). Wine can also be healthy in moderation. I never had an alcohol problem and only got “drunk” once when in college (and learned my lesson).

Education is the most effective way (in Free societies)-—but we have immoral media which has powerful access to children brainwashing them into thinking the cool and beautiful and wealthy all do drugs. Media makes evil behavior “cool” and desirable—when in fact, it destroys all constructive relationships-—so one becomes dependent on government.

The Truth of doing drugs is obscured. The Truth when revealed—the ugliness—like in the Montana Ads for Meth-—reduced drug use by teenagers in half (or more). Seeing the Truth and education is the most desirable—instead of “laws” but we have the promotion of drugs and irresponsible behavior being promoted in Glee and MTV 24/7 to our youth to destroy Virtue—the only thing which creates responsible human beings.

We need no laws if the people are Virtuous. Virtue is necessary for a Free Republic.....known by all Wise people since Plato.

Our legal system and media mocks Virtue and marginalizes responsible behavior and glorifies dysfunctional acts—even rewards the behavior with taxpayer money—even celebrates evil (to corrupt the children) and takes pride in it.

Promoting Vice by government will destroy Civil society......Justice is a Virtue and only Just Laws can elicit a great cohesive society. Unjust laws will create a totalitarian one. (Cicero).

To correct society—I would get back to the original intent and meaning of the Constitution. We have too many laws and regulations—most are unconstitutional and created the “drug problem” since we have a welfare state and people are not responsible for anything.

People have to be forced to do their Duty and experience the results of their actions. If we had no socialism—people wouldn’t have time or resources to do drugs in the first place. Those stupid enough to indulge in drugs would eliminate themselves and their progeny from the gene pool.


24 posted on 07/18/2012 2:37:38 PM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: Responsibility2nd

Looking at the posts, yours look more like propaganda.


25 posted on 07/18/2012 2:40:50 PM PDT by KEVLAR
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To: savagesusie

Alcohol most definitely does impair the brain, even at levels as low as 0.010% BAC.

So much bovine excrement, so little time.


26 posted on 07/18/2012 2:46:58 PM PDT by KEVLAR
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To: Responsibility2nd
your pro-dope propaganda.

I'm not "pro-dope" - I'm pro-freedom.

27 posted on 07/18/2012 2:49:13 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: savagesusie
It already is illegal for children to use alcohol, so it is controlled.

We should take the same approach with other drugs.

28 posted on 07/18/2012 2:51:34 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: JustSayNoToNannies

Let’s see, I can have a giant fascist government that tramples all over my Constitutional rights via the War on Drugs or I can put up with a few losers getting high. Hmmmmm? What to do, what to do, what do to /s


29 posted on 07/18/2012 3:29:43 PM PDT by jpsb
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To: savagesusie

You have identified a problem, but you offer no solution.

One of the hallmarks of liberalism is in the way they go about solving problems.

“Let’s implement solution ‘A’ and hope for a good result...”

“Oh crap! We got the opposite result! That must mean that we haven’t done ENOUGH ‘A’!”

“The results are worse than last time! We must do even more ‘A’ to get a good result...”

And they never realize that solution ‘A’ was the wrong thing to do.

The WOD has proven ineffective, expensive and WRONG in all ways. I am not saying that we throw in the towel, but I am saying that we have to admit that it’s time to try different tactics.

At this point, the Libertarians are right. The WOD has been so disastrous, that it’d be better to legalize drugs than keep going down the same path we’ve been on. Personally, I believe that we need to either give up or act like grown ups, admit that solution ‘A’ was not a good solution and go back to the drawing board.

This is one area where Conservatives act like wrong-headed liberals every time.


30 posted on 07/18/2012 4:28:33 PM PDT by Marie ("The last time Democrats gloated this hard after a health care victory, they lost 60 House seats.")
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To: KEVLAR

Like aspartame? Like birth control pills? (Look how it is contaminating MY water supply). Like aspirin? Like chocolate? Like coffee? Like vaccines? What is your point?????? Does everything (except illicit drugs) have some positive aspects and that is why we allow it even though it can be deadly like WATER?

Let me decide as long as I am not driving drunk—but, oh yes, we have laws which don’t allow that and abuse of alcohol already.

The impact on the brain is conjecture at 0.01% and wine and beer has beneficial effects that can be proven to balance any negative.

There is no comparison between the brain effect by alcohol and other drugs like marijuana which have no “good” effects on the body-—and meth/crack, heroine, etc. No positive effects whatsoever and does tons of damage to the body.

Addicts are emotionally damaged people who can’t control anything—much less alcohol. It is not a problem of alcohol—it is a character problem. Alcohol has been around since all of history and has been used in positive ways. The thing is -—the other illicit drugs damage the brain structure and injure lungs, health, etc. and have no positive effect—it is apples and oranges.

Alcohol has been used responsibly by millions of people. The other drugs can’t—never are—they destroy all constructive relationships. My father made wine and drank some a lot and died very old, owning his own business, and had perfect health until his death. He never had Alzheimers either and died in his own home at almost 88.

Don’t tell me it “impairs the brain at low levels-—scientist don’t even know what the aspirin does and they continue to lie about vaccines and autism and sodomy—things which are damaging to the future of society. (so they REALLY REALLY CARE about alcohol).

Look at what government sanctioned for the brains of children —pushed millions of boys on this drug-—far worse than alcohol.
http://www.amazon.com/Talking-Back-Ritalin-Doctors-Stimulants/dp/0738205443


31 posted on 07/18/2012 5:32:28 PM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: Marie

My solution is to return to the intent and meaning of the Constitution—just like a Libertarian except for one thing. Social issues. For Justice (Rule of Law), we have to have Virtuous people—all the Founders stated that-—so since men can not be virtuous (or “angels) we need laws that promote “Virtue” only-—Just Law can never promote vice and be constitutional.

We are designed to be Ruled by Law (Just Law).

We can not allow drug use without dismantling the welfare system which protects and supports the drug addicts. We need them to suffer the consequences of their actions. Then we will get less of it. That is true freedom where you don’t make slaves and caretakers of the producers which punishes Virtue and rewards the Vice in our socialist set-up now. (Unconstitutional).

Government handouts—which promote sloth, dependency, and envy and is theft from the producers and reward for evil behavior—cannot exist in a Just/free/U.S. Constitutional government. Drug Laws are not necessary if we allow the drug addicts to die in the ditch because they are too busy pursuing pleasures, rather than supporting themselves and their families.

Charity is just that—can only be the free gift of those that have—never forced—which is all government is.


32 posted on 07/18/2012 5:47:50 PM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: Marie

I would also restore everyones 2nd Amendment Rights and give people complete power to use it to protect all private property with very little questions asked.

The only reason we have a problem today is because of the Leviathan and our lack of freedom and the existing socialism which rewards evil behavior and punishes the productive.


33 posted on 07/18/2012 5:51:21 PM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: savagesusie

I’m sorry but you are going to have to do much better than that.

Please continue your research, your facts on alcohol and MJ are incorrect.

You are all over the place making unsupported and conflicting claims.

Your personal anecdotes are nice but carry no weight in this discussion, much like any I could share.

Mj has been around for all of history as well and looking at the balance of actual evidence there is no comparison as to the harm done. Not even close.

Considering the numbers involved I’m certain that someone somewhere throughout all of history has used MJ responsibly and in the same manner as alcohol.


34 posted on 07/19/2012 1:35:34 PM PDT by KEVLAR
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To: savagesusie
We can not allow drug use without dismantling the welfare system which protects and supports the drug addicts. We need them to suffer the consequences of their actions.

So I guess we ought to recriminalize the drug alcohol until we dismantle the welfare system - right?

35 posted on 07/19/2012 3:26:21 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: Ken H
So after a century of increasingly aggressive prohibition, our own government is telling us that addiction has gone from 0.5% in 1900 to 1.5% in 2000.

Thanks for digging up the facts, Ken!

36 posted on 07/19/2012 3:29:40 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: savagesusie
wine and beer has beneficial effects that can be proven to balance any negative.

No, that can't be proven - the balance depends on how a given individual values the benefits and harms. If I decide the harms outweigh the benefits and don't drink (and I don't drink or use any illegal drugs, by the way), I shouldn't impose my choice on you. It's called liberty.

There is no comparison between the brain effect by alcohol and other drugs like marijuana which have no “good” effects on the body

Marijuana has a number of established health benefits.

the other illicit drugs damage the brain structure and injure lungs, health, etc. and have no positive effect

In a free society, we allow adults to decide that the positive effect of pleasure is worth negative health effects.

Alcohol has been used responsibly by millions of people. The other drugs can’t—never are—they destroy all constructive relationships.

6% of Americans used marijuana in the past year but not in the past month - how is that not responsible use? (source: http://www.samhsa.gov/data/NSDUH/2k10ResultsTables/NSDUHTables2010R/HTM/Sect1peTabs1to46.htm#Tab1.1B)

37 posted on 07/19/2012 3:42:11 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: savagesusie
Alcohol does not impair the brain or damage it, if used moderately

"alcohol exerts its effects via binding sites on target molecules just like all other drugs we know about." - Gregg Homanics, professor of anesthesiology, pharmacology, and chemical biology at the University of Pittsburgh - http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110615161756.htm

38 posted on 07/19/2012 4:02:02 PM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: KEVLAR

Are you talking about “smoking” marijuana.....no damage to lungs??????? Heart? Brain??? THC does nothing negative???? Ya, right. No other toxins in the joint??”””

I was in speech class at a community college in San Jose over a decade ago with an ex-marijuana addict (so he hoped) (age 19)-—who had completed a rehab program for marijuana addiction. He went into detail why it should remain illegal with his long list—he was addicted in high school and it destroyed his education. He talked about how it destroyed all incentive to do anything, even graduate.

When I was at UO in Eugene and at a “party” where they were passing around joints-—I was astounded by the stupidity of these people (I did not become intoxicated—I didn’t even smoke cigarettes at that time)-—They were so incredibly boring and stupid, but they thought they were brilliant and “creative” and so funny. (I graduated with an Art degree).

Their reality was severely warped—not creative— and it was the worst “party” (of many) I had ever attended Simply boring. The narcissism of drug users and their self-hatred, nihilism, and abuse of their bodies is really quite sad.

My sister did drugs (from marijuana to everything) along with her boyfriend/husband-—they were both dead by 21. I am not real fond of drugs—alcohol was never a problem for my family and I had a very large family. Like I say, alcohol can be used in mature, positive ways—as I and my parents have done. All my brothers only drank alcohol and they all owned their own businesses and had good lives and fine children, so far. My other sister is a nurse and only drank. She worked in the Psych ward and saw all the damage from drugs—not alcohol—but LSD, etc. She was quite affected by a young, handsome boy whose mind was ruined at age 20 by drugs (not alcohol).

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/international/glamour_couple_drug_hell_descent_CqIgH04jYzA5HGFuLjBsIM


39 posted on 07/20/2012 12:04:07 AM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: savagesusie

As I indicated earlier your personal stories carry zero weight. Perhaps you could address the verifiable information in this thread.

You obviously have failed to avail yourself of any factual information.

I bet you believe you are brilliant as well...


40 posted on 07/20/2012 10:02:34 AM PDT by KEVLAR
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To: KEVLAR

You rely on “facts” and “science”? Whose???????????

I never do-—I don’t trust them—and statistics with all the “agendas” of the pharmaceutical companies and elites who control the trillions that do the proper “research”? Are you stupid????? Do you truly believe this system in place wants healthy, independent brilliant people???????? (Hint: they want sick dependent drones to make a profit off of and control).

Yes, I am a cynic-—but I rely on actual experience and true knowledge by the intense study of history to determine patterns. And you know what——it is the Truth of the world most of the time which is OBVIOUS and is more reliable than Marxists who control the information that the universities pump out. Look at all the “facts” on Global Warming. The EVILS of second hand smoke——the EVILS of DDT-—the evils of —put in anything in-—it is all to erase God-Given Rights and Truth.

Your problem—you believe the “proper” “allowed” paradigm of normal science. I am much more like a Karl Popper and I do NOT—do NOT—believe the “facts’ that come out of Marxist universities.

Another thing for you to know-—I am well versed in Thomas Kuhn’s theory of paradigm shifts. ALL SCIENCE is never the Truth. They use as much or more faith than any religion.

You are trying to convince me that YOU have the TRUTH—because of some Marxist study that “ASSUMES” what he sees is the Truth-—it is not, Trust me and your deep instincts. I always do—so did my parents who lived a long and prosperous life. My sister who was dead at 19 believed in the Pop Culture and did what they glorified. God and Common Sense RULE (as it did for the Founders) rather than “experts” who pretend to have the Truth and are godless and want total control over the masses.

Science today is all controlled by Marxists—just ask Ben Stein-—They want to make the masses into illogical useful idiots.

Read those studies again that “prove” your “facts”. It is all assumption and conjecture and guess work (by Marxists BTW). These people have been formed through Marxist educational system devoid of God (Truth) and the “research” is set up to determine the “truth”-—the OUTCOMES are always predetermined in Marxist societies and are just Lies for an agenda (power).

We are living in The Brave New World (since Fabian socialists control of schools and media)-—you just don’t know it. You think you get the Truth from elites (Marxists) and their studies. HA HA. God is Truth and Marxists will NEVER have it. Watch who you believe in....it could be deadly.


41 posted on 07/20/2012 12:44:57 PM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: KEVLAR

Another thing-—the more I study and learn—the more humble I become.

You are an arrogant believer who are deluded into thinking you have the Truth. An ideologue. I believe in God and His Truth-—not some Marxist “truth” and “statistics” meant to destroy freedom and life and a belief in God.


42 posted on 07/20/2012 3:12:31 PM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: savagesusie

Yes. Facts, as in reality, not some emotional response based on limited personal experience.

Your long replies are short in this department and make many unfounded assumptions.

Marxist study? I have not mentioned any study including the the one that is the subject of this thread.

Don’t pretend that you know what I believe, or do, or do not know based on my limited posts here, or that you know what my “problem” is.

My only “problem” at the moment is your ignorance.

Choose your own source, the number of people harmed or killed by alcohol is quite large, tens of thousands in the US alone WITHOUT including auto accidents, homicide and suicide where alcohol was a factor. Include those and the annual number worldwide is in the millions.

Do you dispute this?

Do you dispute the median lethal dose rating for alcohol?


43 posted on 07/20/2012 4:22:28 PM PDT by KEVLAR
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To: KEVLAR

“....the number of people harmed or killed by alcohol is quite large, tens of thousands in the US alone WITHOUT including auto accidents, homicide and suicide.....” Yada yada yada-—can’t you see your whole premise is so DUMB—so MARXIST-—so devoid of LOGIC?????? ALCOHOL can’t DO ANYTHING—without HUMANS. It is Human behavior which kills—harms, etc. You ARE brainwashed by the Marxist worldview of victimhood.

All the “facts” you are brainwashed with are produced by Marxist universities which are funded and financed by Marxists to produce certain “outcomes” which will make it possible to curb freedom and give the State Power. If you don’t understand that FACT and the Leviathan, (provable, documented), then consider yourself a brainwashed useful idiot.

Postmodernists took charge of schools and worldview in the early 1900’s, if you haven’t noticed-—except for a few marginalized, religious pockets in society which are currently attacked viciously to shut them down, too—so no Truth gets out. (Chick fil A and Kirk Cameron and Catholic Charities and the Catholic Church and Tea Party—to name a few).

Buckley warned us in 1951 about the Marxist takeover of even Religion classes at Yale (and all elite universities). So all “funded” studies—as man-made global warming—gun-control studies—are suspect. (except for John Lott-type people who are God-Fearing, but marginalized by MSM or fired or not funded because of their “wrong” belief system (Christianity).

Truth comes only from God. There is no Truth in irrational Postmodernism—only nihilism and death and lies.

I don’t trust liars...I read John Locke, St. Thomas Aquinas and study personal histories, so I get information from hundreds of the most knowledgeable, successful, brilliant people who ever lived. That is where Wisdom comes from-—history-—according to Confucius and Socrates and Machiavelli and all brilliant philosophers and CS Lewis.

If you think some brainwashed scientist is “WISE”, who adopts Bentham/Marxist Ethics then you are wrong. Truth comes from God. He is Truth. All scientific “Truth” points to the Designer of Nature as Creator. That is the source of Logic and Reason—Natural Law Theory-—which is denied by Bentham, Austin, Nietzsche and Marx—the ideas forced in elementary schools and universities today (BK Eakman). They deny Truth—therefore, they only promote twisted ideas and The Big Lie. Ayn Rand referred to this a “irrational thinking”.

So, like the person who crawled out of Plato’s Cave, I see you as chained inside the cave, believing in the ideas MSM and their government university and research system tell you just what to think—what is true. Alcohol is evil. Well, water can be “evil” in that sense too—and kill. (Did you ever think that the Nature of Man is what is evil and that teaching Virtue is the only way to have a free society—not curtailing guns or alcohol???? That is what the Founders believed-—it is the First Principle of the Constitution.

I repeat-—alcohol can be and is and history proves it—used in positive productive ways. My parents are proof. Responsible behavior is the key. Moral populace is the key-—and government has no right to deny me my choices-—just punishing ones which intrude on other people’s rights, like drunk driving, etc.

On LIberty—by John Stuart Mill goes to more of an extreme than me-—and warned of the Slaves which would be produced by allowing government to have their fingers in education. Ya....good ole Commie Carter put the nail in the coffin and removed all Reason and Logic from the classrooms in the USA.

Your thinking is just the irrational thinking built on assumptions which aren’t founded on Truth and experience.

You claim my belief is “irrational” -—but Faith in God is less “irrational” than belief in man and that everything arose out of nothing—the root of Marxism. How stupid is that for the basic belief of “knowledgeable” scientists. Ha. When their foundation is so twisted and stupid-—all ideas—their whole worldview— will be warped.

The belief in the Christian God has led to the most successful and humane and free societies in the history of evil man. Belief in Christianity—produced the science you venerate. Without Christianity, there would have been no science as you know it. Western Civilization would have died with the pederasts and degenerates that proliferated under pantheism/occultism of Ancient Rome where homosexuality was considered “good”.


44 posted on 07/20/2012 6:38:26 PM PDT by savagesusie (Right Reason According to Nature = Just Law)
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To: savagesusie

Sorry, wrong on all counts. Not a victim, not brainwashed.

I never suggested that alcohol DID anything, but you know this.

I see you could not answer the simple direct questions and instead choose to assume and insult.

I mentioned or referenced no studies. What agenda is served by an accounting of how people die? Do Marxist universities do the tallying and classification of the deceased?

What a waste of your time and perfectly good electrons your posts are. (I don’t bother serious reading past the nonsense or insults.)

At the end of the day you have made my points for me and a fool of yourself at the same time. To wit: Responsible behavior is the key and government has no right to deny me my choices-—just punishing ones which intrude on other people’s rights, like drunk driving, etc.

Someone smoking grass in their own home does not violate others rights.


45 posted on 07/20/2012 10:16:59 PM PDT by KEVLAR (Liberty or Death)
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To: savagesusie
I was in speech class at a community college in San Jose over a decade ago with an ex-marijuana addict (so he hoped) (age 19)-—who had completed a rehab program for marijuana addiction. He went into detail why it should remain illegal with his long list—he was addicted in high school and it destroyed his education. He talked about how it destroyed all incentive to do anything, even graduate.

15% of people who have used alcohol have at some point in their lives been dependent on it - so should we re-ban that drug?

My sister did drugs (from marijuana to everything) along with her boyfriend/husband-—they were both dead by 21. I am not real fond of drugs—alcohol was never a problem for my family and I had a very large family.

My uncle drank himself into a diaper and a wheelchair. Now, where does the combination of your personal experiences and mine leave us? In need of the broader observational base provided by scientific research, perhaps?

46 posted on 07/23/2012 9:35:09 AM PDT by JustSayNoToNannies (A free society's default policy: it's none of government's business.)
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To: savagesusie

As I am fond of saying, I am perfectly fine with legalizing the drugs, so long as we’re allowed to ban their use right in public places, hold people liable to prosecution for drug use and poor job performance by their employers, keep the dealers accountable as slander and libel about their products, and also, finally, discipline addicts for neglecting their families and work.


47 posted on 06/30/2013 4:10:51 PM PDT by Morpheus2009
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