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Colorado shooter: a high achiever's abrupt descent
Reuters ^ | July 23, 2012 | Stephanie Simon and Dan Whitcomb

Posted on 07/26/2012 5:06:34 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o

For most of his 24 years, James Holmes seemed to be doing everything right.

He worked for a summer as a counselor at a camp for needy kids, guiding them through activities designed to teach empathy, compassion and good citizenship. Another summer, he snagged a prestigious internship at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies.

He attended church with his family in their quiet, upper-middle-class San Diego neighborhood, listening to his sister play bass in the worship band. He breezed through high school and college, taking a strong interest in science and graduating with honors from the University of California, Riverside.

Friends and acquaintances of Holmes say they had no inkling that anything was awry with him --

"It's absurd. It's so out of character for this young man," said Jerry Borgie, senior pastor at Penasquitos Lutheran Church in San Diego, where the Holmes family worshipped. "James had goals. He was going to succeed."

But a few hints have emerged in recent days that Holmes may have struggled far more than those around him realized.

His summer internship at the Salk Institute in La Jolla, California, in 2006 might have been impressive on paper, but...

(Excerpt) Read more at reuters.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; News/Current Events; US: Colorado
KEYWORDS: auorashooting; auraro; jamesholmes; jamesholmesbio; massacre; massmurder
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To: RummyChick
I don't know about the bomb part. I have serious doubts about these "bombs," and the fact that there was no explosion leads me to believe whatever he constructed would not have worked. There's a reason bombmakers are the rock stars of terrorism, and that's because making bombs is hard, especially for those prone to making mistakes. The authorities have a vested interest in overstating the functionality of whatever was in there.

He didn't have "automatic weapons," so I'm more suspicious of this "marine" than of some conspiracy to arm Holmes.

I've spent more on real automatic weapons in one day than it cost this kid to buy these guns, which are common and easily purchable by anyone with a clean record and a credit card.

It doesn't take any combat skill to walk into a dark theater full of distracted people and shoot at them. I can't imagine any kind of killing that takes LESS skill.

51 posted on 07/26/2012 7:17:58 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: RummyChick

I don’t know if it is a hoax, but I believe the letter is wrong.

Each of the weapons can be purchased with no problems. It’s not an ‘aresenal’. It’s not like he had full auto uzi’s. He had a remington 870 which I can buy today. An AR-15, which I have. And a Glock 40, which is also easy to find and get. He got ammo for them. Easy. I can go to walmart and get ammo at any time.

The bomb stuff, IDK, but I believe you could probably find stuff on the internet. I haven’t looked for it, but I would assume.

It wasn’t sophisicated. It’s not like he repeled into the theater and then disapeared in a cloud of smoke. The guy faked a phone call. Walked out. propped the door. Went to his car. Got his stuff and came back. Finished. Walked back out to his car and got arrested.


52 posted on 07/26/2012 7:18:16 AM PDT by justice14 ("stand up defend or lay down and die")
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To: Gay State Conservative

Perhaps comorbid with Asperger Syndrome or other high functioning autism spectrum disorder.


53 posted on 07/26/2012 7:20:32 AM PDT by glock rocks (optimist / pessimist? I'm an awesomist - There's a dragon in that glass!)
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To: thanatz

there is a poster here who thinks he has Aspergers


54 posted on 07/26/2012 7:21:32 AM PDT by RummyChick
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To: Strategerist
I honestly think there are more people that believe in demonic posession on FR than that believe it’s possible for there to be chemically, structurally, or genetically based mental illness.

And let me ask you, theoretically, that if Satan DOES exist, you don't think he'd use the vulnerable and mentally ill, with the physical defects you identify, to propogate evil and dispirit the faithful? Would he say those poor souls are off-limits?

And in case you don't know the reductionist view of the human soul is just as bizarre and absurd as whatever it is you mock.

55 posted on 07/26/2012 7:22:53 AM PDT by Trailerpark Badass
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To: 1_Rain_Drop
I didn’t expect to see her here. neuroscience should be banned.

Just thought it was a strange and interesting similarity.

56 posted on 07/26/2012 7:22:53 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Chickensoup

We still have “Not Responsible by Reason of Insanity,” but also have Guilty but Mentally Ill. It gives a jury a way to compromise, and allows the state to get a conviction. Since the adoption of GBMI, the number of acquittals by Insanity has gone way down.


57 posted on 07/26/2012 7:25:19 AM PDT by henkster (We're the slaves of the phony leaders...)
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To: Strategerist
Demonic possession and brain malunction/mental illness don't exclude each other. In fact, it is recognized that a person can be suffering from both.

In the Catholic Church, if an exorcism is requested, the sufferer is supposed to undergo diagnostic testing to see if they are mentally ill. If mental illness/ brain disease is present, they're supposed to be treated for the disorder by ordinary medical/psychiatric means before any exorcism is attempted.

There are two major ways that demons influence people, according to Catholic teaching. Demonic possession, the most famous and serious condition, is when a demon takes complete control of a human being’s mind and body. Demonic obsession, or influence, is when a demon tempts an individual repeatedly and oppressively in attempts to lead him or her into hurting self or others.

Not all of the symtoms of diabolic possession are the same as those of mental illness. Several distinctive signs of diabolic possession include:

It's not very common. It may overlap with natural brain disease and other causes. But when it happens, these distinctive diabolic features show that something apart from psychiatric illness is in play.

58 posted on 07/26/2012 7:30:49 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o
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To: justice14
Even if that photo is real ..and even if it was posted on USMC..and even if the guy has the training he says he does...
I think someone could do what James did. As for the bombs, I thought the FBI said it would have taken out the whole building
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/2012/07/25/bomb-disarming-robot-was-first-to-enter-alleged-aurora-shooters-apartment/

In this day and age I think that would be possible to put together without training.

59 posted on 07/26/2012 7:33:01 AM PDT by RummyChick
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To: henkster
if a person is so mentally screwed up that they cannot even understand that what they are doing is wrong, then there is no justification in punishing them.

Why must the only consideration be to "punish" them? Why can we not simply acknowledge that they represent an ever present danger to others and therefore ought to be killed on that basis alone? This is the methodology we use with bears that kill, or mountain lions, or dogs, or monkeys.

We kill "sane" people who murder. Do we do this to "punish" them? Or do we do this for it's deterrence effect on other potential murderers?

I would suggest the entire legal system is based on the theory of deterrence. The operational theory is that if we do something bad to people who commit crimes, others who contemplate committing crimes will refrain.

The prime function of the "justice" system is that of deterrence, because if some means isn't utilized to convince people to control their own behavior, no army would be big enough to be able to force them to do it. Again, the main function of the Justice system is to deter criminal behavior. "Punishment" is really just a tactic to achieve the higher goal, which is deterrence. "Punishment" isn't necessary in and of itself.

Again, the main purpose of the legal system is to protect people by sending a message to the general population, not to explicitly "punish" someone.

60 posted on 07/26/2012 7:33:29 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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To: glock rocks

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/joe-scarborough-james-holmes-autism_n_1694599.html


61 posted on 07/26/2012 7:34:50 AM PDT by RummyChick
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To: Gay State Conservative

Nope, schizo’s emerge in early adulthood. This makes more sense with Holmes than Bishop age wise. Although, I don’t think Holmes could possibly function so highly to set up Aurora if he was schizo! Schizo’s can’t organize complex projects, or plan out elaborate schemes.


62 posted on 07/26/2012 7:41:19 AM PDT by STD ([You must help] people in theĀ…feel so frustrated, so defeated, so lost, so futureless)
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To: Gay State Conservative

That’s the problem and I suspect what Holmes’ parents were up against.


63 posted on 07/26/2012 7:46:38 AM PDT by libstripper
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To: RummyChick

Thanks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome#Social_interaction


64 posted on 07/26/2012 7:51:03 AM PDT by glock rocks (optimist / pessimist? I'm an awesomist - There's a dragon in that glass!)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

His mother has been quoted as saying “you have the right person”.

There was a letter to the Houston Chronicle yesterday where a woman had not heard that his mother was taking about her self. The letter writer ranted about people knowing others were unstable and doing nothing about it.

The media could have made her statement clear from the beginning but then that’s not what the media does.


65 posted on 07/26/2012 7:51:24 AM PDT by Ditter
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To: The Duke; henkster
It’s always made sense to me that a criminal must have opportunity, means and motive. What is missing here is motive, which suggests the possibility of insanity to me.

I'm reminded of the Batman line: "Some people just want to watch the world burn". Lots of people are convicted of murder, whose only motive was that they got sexual satisfaction from killing the victim.

Henkster, please correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that for a finding of LEGAL insanity, the accused must be shown to be so insane that he's not aware of what he's doing. That while the rest of us know he strangled an eight year old girl, he sincerely believed he was destroying a demon or alien monster.

66 posted on 07/26/2012 8:02:33 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (If I can't be persuasive, I at least hope to be fun.)
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To: 1_Rain_Drop
neuroscience should be banned.

It's not that neuroscience creates crazies, as much as people who have "issues" may decide to go into psych or neuro in order to try to understand their own issues.

67 posted on 07/26/2012 8:05:08 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (If I can't be persuasive, I at least hope to be fun.)
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To: Nervous Tick

-Setting up that insanity plea.

Don’t be surprised if the Colorado state psychiatrists diagnose schizophrenia. This guy may indeed be insane and unfit to stand trial. We will know more at the hearing. It used to be called NGRI (Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity) but that changed after Hinkley. The burden of proof has shifted to the defense and it is much harder now.

Schizophrenia seems to explain the change in behavior. It hits at random and if you’re going to get it, it usually strikes in the early to mid-twenties. This is a horrible illness, this time with an almost unimaginable outcome. My prayers go out to the victims and their families and the family/friends of this mass-murderer. He will most likely be institutionalized and medicated for the rest of his life but the carnage he left behind is heart-breaking. The consequences of our actions are life changing and long lasting.

-Frank


68 posted on 07/26/2012 8:07:35 AM PDT by thepoodlebites (and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.)
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To: DiogenesLamp
Why must the only consideration be to "punish" them? Why can we not simply acknowledge that they represent an ever present danger to others and therefore ought to be killed on that basis alone? This is the methodology we use with bears that kill, or mountain lions, or dogs, or monkeys.

1. Humans are not animals

2. At one time we burnt people at the stake believing they were witches when in fact they were insane or mentally disturbed at the time.

3. I think people who commit crimes like this shooter should be locked up for life.

4. We should be more proactive with these people rather than reactive as another poster suggested.

4. It's been proven that many people who are violent have a chemical defect or portions of their brain missing that cause these outburst which normal people do not have. I suspect 50-60 years from now we will be able to treat people with mental illness before they go off..maybe even in the womb through medication.

5. I believe some people are just evil and do violent stuff.

We kill "sane" people who murder. Do we do this to "punish" them? Or do we do this for it's deterrence effect on other potential murderers?

Lettuce be real, the death penalty is not a deterrent. Murders only have remorse and are afraid of the death penalty only after they get caught.

69 posted on 07/26/2012 8:10:05 AM PDT by trailhkr1 (Bigamy: Having at least one wife too many. Monogamy: Definitely having one wife too many.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
We must keep in mind that the movie, "Batman: The Dark Knight Rises", bashed the Marxist "Occupy" movement. And there are a LOT of people on the extreme Left who would have, or could still, easily qualify as "crazy", Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, two good examples...

"Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at"
--Bill Ayers (1970), quoted in New York Times, September 11, 2001:

Article: "No Regrets for a Love Of Explosives; In a Memoir of Sorts, a War Protester Talks of Life With the Weathermen"
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F02E1DE1438F932A2575AC0A9679C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=1>
_____________________________________________________

"Dig It. First they killed those pigs [ie, rich people], then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victim’s stomach! Wild!"
-Weather Underground leader and wife of Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, referring to the Manson murders

Article: Allies in War -by David Horowitz
FrontPageMagazine.com | Monday, September 17, 2001
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=63512670-BF7C-42A0-B41D-5D0FB9E09C09
_____________________________________________________

"It was at the Chicago home of [Bill] Ayers and [Bernardine] Dohrn that Obama, then an up-and-coming 'community organizer,' had his political coming out party in 1995. Not content with this rite of passage in Lefty World — where unrepentant terrorists are regarded as progressive luminaries, still working 'only to educate' — both Obamas tended to the relationship with the Ayers."
Article: The Company He Keeps:
Meet Obama’s circle: The same old America-hating Left
http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YThjYTU1ZDBjNmQ2YzcwNzU1MmYwN2JiMWY0ZGI0NDA=&w=MA==

70 posted on 07/26/2012 8:11:35 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Image and video hosting by TinyPic

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/film/9405999/How-the-Dark-Knight-Rises-reveals-Batmans-Conservative-soul.html
____________________________________________________________________________________

From Breitbart, one day before the shooting...

("Dark Knight" was ANTI-Occupy, PRO-Capitalist)

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Hollywood/2012/07/18/dark-knight-rises-review-batman-bain-ows

71 posted on 07/26/2012 8:12:42 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Undercover agent Larry Grathwohl discusses the Weather Underground's post-revolution governing plans for the United States:

Larry Grathwohl:

"I asked, 'well what is going to happen to those people we can't reeducate, that are diehard capitalists?' and the reply was that they'd have to be eliminated. And when I pursued this further, they estimated they would have to eliminate 25 million people in these reeducation centers. And when I say 'eliminate,' I mean 'kill.' Twenty-five million people. I want you to imagine sitting in a room with 25 people, most of which have graduate degrees, from Columbia and other well-known educational centers, and hear them figuring out the logistics for the elimination of 25 million people. And they were dead serious."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HWMIwziGrAQ

72 posted on 07/26/2012 8:13:42 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: PapaBear3625

Very good point.

Makes sense.


73 posted on 07/26/2012 8:15:49 AM PDT by 1_Rain_Drop
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To: justice14; RummyChick

I don’t doubt that a trained Marine would conclude that an operation as described by the media would be difficult to pull off by an individual, even a trained one. One aspect that bothered me was the tear gas canisters he allegedly tossed in. It’s not an item that civilians can typically get off the shelf, unless he made it himself.


74 posted on 07/26/2012 8:17:40 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (If I can't be persuasive, I at least hope to be fun.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

The silicon chip inside his head got switched to overload.


75 posted on 07/26/2012 8:23:44 AM PDT by dead (I've got my eye out for Mullah Omar.)
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To: RummyChick

I think he’s responding to the initial reports. You know the ones where the media was exaggerating to his ammunition, vest and explosives. He probably thinks the bombs were real boms and not perhaps what they may turn out to be- firecrackers.

I don’t think he spends much time on FR where are lot of the stuff has been examined, turned over and debunked.


76 posted on 07/26/2012 8:25:27 AM PDT by 1_Rain_Drop
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To: RummyChick

In regards to this Marine’s photo, it’s probably ‘real’ and probably incorrect.

Marines are teamwork-oriented folks that focus on excelling at tasks in the context of an overall team objective within the given rules. They carry a lot of programming as far as ‘how things are done’, both tactically and as far as what you might call ‘fighting fair.’ They view everything through the lens of Marine philosophy. While I have the utmost respect for the Marines in their ability to work in a highly proficient and synchronized manner, thinking out of the box ain’t their strong suit.

This shooter is an asymmetric warfare poster child. He took the best available technology for a limited amount of money (probably closer to 5k than 20), utilized terrain to his utmost advantage (dark clothing while in darkness, light and noise distraction from movie, room full of obstacles and only two feasible exits, homemade chemical bombs, element of surprise), and then surrendered, knowing the police’s ROE would prohibit them from killing him once he did.

For whatever his point was, he went about it very efficiently.

He’s not crazy by any means; far from it. This took quite a bit of research, forethought and precision. Nothing a dedicated and resourceful mind couldn’t pull off, but also nothing that a ‘normal’ person would consider. Having the will to shoot 50+ people in cold blood is the factor the Marine can’t fathom, but it’s the one that makes all other things possible. Once you have the will, the means are very available to an intelligent and patient man.

Not to fully dismiss the Marine’s opinion, but it’s out of his field of experience. As a former intel guy with SOF experience and more than a long weekend dealing with our Islamist friends, I’m not unused to red cell operations and know quite a few people who still are in the game. Looking at things from an enemy’s standpoint is a different way of thinking and viewing the world. The easiest mistake is to assume they are a mirror reflection of you. They’re not.

Being strong enough to take a hill against armed opponents isn’t the same skillset as being able to spot weakness in a much larger opponent and capitalize on it. This Colorado shooter isn’t some kind of super killing machine; just a dedicated man who denies himself any limits but understands the limits of others (terrain, confusion, fear, police protocol) intrinsically. Marines are creatures of objectives and limits, and have a hard time fathoming people that have none.


77 posted on 07/26/2012 8:44:21 AM PDT by Steel Wolf ("Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master." - Gaius Sallustius Crispus)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
The "Black Bloc" is an ultra-violent faction of the OWS movement. James Holmes was apparently dressed in Black Bloc-type attire during the rampage. The film playing at the time (Batman/The Dark Knight Rises) (rightfully) depicts the 'Occupy' movement as anti-Capitalist. The film is pro-Capitalist, anti-OWS. Its directors proudly and openly describe themselves as pro-capitalist Conservatives. So there is at least SOME reason to believe the attack might be politically motivated. James Holmes said to the police following the rampage, "I am the Joker". The Joker of course is the enemy of the pro-Capitalist, pro-Conservative Batman.
____________________________________________________________________________________

"Violence like the massacre that happened in Aurora, Colo., today is a staple of action films, including Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy. A similar, now haunting, scene unfurls in "The Dark Knight Rises" when a masked villain leads a violent gang into a packed football stadium and deploys guns and explosives on the unsuspecting crowd.

While there has been no indication as to the motives of James Holmes, the suspected 24-year-old shooter who is now in custody, new evidence suggests that he was inspired by the Batman series of comic books and/or movies.

Law enforcement sources confirmed to ABC News that Holmes said "I am the Joker" when apprehended by authorities. His hair was painted red, the same hair color of Heath Ledger's Joker at one point in 2008's "The Dark Knight."

[snip]

There are more parallels. In Frank Miller's iconic 1986 comic book series, "The Dark Knight Returns," the Joker murders a television studio audience by deploying "smile gas." Holmes began his massacre by setting off smoke bombs throughout the theater.

In the same book, Arnold Crimp, a disturbed man who just lost his job, pulls out a handgun in an adult film theater and kills three people. A scene from the strip shows a news anchor saying, "Three slain in Batman-inspired porn theater shoot-out." ..."

(Excerpt) Read more at gma.yahoo.com ...

78 posted on 07/26/2012 8:44:49 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: The Duke

“What is missing here is motive, which suggests the possibility of insanity to me.”

The motive is the great joy and release he felt in killing people.

On the one hand, you can say that is “insane.” But it’s not insane as in, he didn’t know what he was doing.

There is great evil in the world. It’s not crazy. It’s just evil.


79 posted on 07/26/2012 8:51:02 AM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
The "Black Bloc", of which this lunatic MAY have been a part, is a far LEFT, very violent, anarchist movement.

From the website Examiner...

The reports that Aurora movie theater gunman James E. Holmes was a former member of the “Black Bloc” faction of the Occupy movement have caused considerable debate. Yet the most strident denials of this reportage seem to come almost entirely from the political left. More objective sources as well as blogs and web sites on the right seem to assert Holmes was a member of the group.

The “Black Bloc” faction of Occupy has targeted law enforcement in other instances, and three members of the group are facing charges of attempting to kill cops in Chicago. It has become clear the “booby-trapping” of his apartment with trip wires and bombs was intended to kill the most likely next persons to enter that apartment, namely law enforcement. Aurora, Colorado police have state they are angry at knowing they were targeted in this way by the alleged movie theater shooter.

The web site GodLikeProductions.com has done an analysis of the commonly seen picture of Holmes along with two others that are allegedly him also, one from the dating site profile that is believed to have been his that had the line about visiting him in prison soon, and another of a mug shot of an Occupy New York member arrested in October of 2011.

Private Investigator Bill Warren reported on his blog the connection between Holmes and the Occupy movement, and his web site is still reporting that information as a result of his investigation of the issue. As some of the left seem to more stridently deny the connection, it appears more evidence is reported showing that Holmes might well be a member of the Occupy movement or a former member of the group.

http://www.examiner.com/article/more-signs-point-to-james-e-holmes-having-been-occupy-black-bloc-member

80 posted on 07/26/2012 8:51:36 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: DiogenesLamp

“I have long thought that the legal system’s attitude about insane murderers is itself insane.”

The Bible does not offer an insanity defense, either. Those who murder are to be put to death, regardless of their mental state.

Exceptions are given for true accidents; I am talking about deliberate murder.


81 posted on 07/26/2012 8:55:11 AM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
JULY 19th, 2012 MOVIE REVIEW:

The Dark Knight Rises,” the third and final installment in director Christopher Nolan’s Batman trilogy, pushes the ideological envelope even further than before. It’s impossible not to feel Nolan’s disgust at Occupy Wall Street a movement the film paints as both incoherent and violent courtesy of a class warfare villain armed with nuclear weaponry.

“The Dark Knight Rises” never mentions the 99 percent or other overt Occupy Wall Street slogans. But Nolan clearly summons the spirit of the ragtag movement with a propensity for violence. Bane’s henchmen literally attack Wall Street, savagely beat the rich and promise the good people of Gotham that “tomorrow, you claim what is rightfully yours.”

http://www.pibillwarner.com/2012/07/occupy-black-bloc-member-james-holmes.html

82 posted on 07/26/2012 8:57:39 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
"Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at"
--Bill Ayers (1970), quoted in New York Times, September 11, 2001:

"Dig It. First they killed those pigs [ie, rich people], then they ate dinner in the same room with them, they even shoved a fork into a victim’s stomach! Wild!"
-Weather Underground leader and wife of Bill Ayers, Bernardine Dohrn, referring to the Manson murders

83 posted on 07/26/2012 8:59:06 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: The Duke
It’s always made sense to me that a criminal must have opportunity, means and motive. What is missing here is motive, which suggests the possibility of insanity to me.

Please refer to my posts on this thread. There is a STRONG potential political motive here.

84 posted on 07/26/2012 9:04:14 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: trailhkr1; DiogenesLamp

I agree a lot more with Diogenes than trailhkr, but I’d like to address a couple of points.

“Human beings are not animals,” No, we’re not, and that’s why when a coyote kills a squirrel we don’t try him for murder. It’s when a PERSON gets killed that a murder occurs. Biblical law requires, if an animal attacks and kills a person, it is to be put to death.

which leads me to. . .

I don’t think the main point of the death penalty is a deterrent, although it may be a powerful deterrent. It’s really not perfectly proveable. What I do think it is is JUSTICE, and that is what is required, here.

The fact that people were supposedly burnt for being insane in the past is not relevant to this discussion. Murder occurs all the time. People were burnt at the stake for any number of reasons. It doesn’t therefore follow that the death penalty is worthless.

No one here is advocating for anyone with a mental illness to be punished just because they are mentally ill. But when they cross the line and kill someone or harm them, they should be punished. They have gone from mental illness to criminal behavior.


85 posted on 07/26/2012 9:05:54 AM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: trailhkr1
3. I think people who commit crimes like this shooter should be locked up for life.

I think people who believe that murderers should be kept alive at tax payer expense should have to pay for the entire cost by themselves. Those of us who believe they should be killed ought not be forced to pay for a policy with which we vehemently disagree.

4. We should be more proactive with these people rather than reactive as another poster suggested.

And what does that mean? Since we don't know who will commit a crime before the fact, it appears you are suggesting the creation of a "Department of Pre-Crime" as was demonstrated in the movie "Minority Report." I suggest that killing murderers will prevent future crime without the need to predict who will commit it before the fact.

4. It's been proven that many people who are violent have a chemical defect or portions of their brain missing that cause these outburst which normal people do not have. I suspect 50-60 years from now we will be able to treat people with mental illness before they go off..maybe even in the womb through medication.

I don't care. It concerns me not at all WHY they did it. I am only interested in the fact that they have demonstrated themselves to be a threat to others around them. We shoot rabid dogs, and we do not think it an injustice because the dog didn't mean to be rabid.

Lettuce be real, the death penalty is not a deterrent. Murders only have remorse and are afraid of the death penalty only after they get caught.

Nonsense. The death penalty is not a very strong deterrent the way *WE* have been implementing it. Given that it takes a decade to execute someone, whatever deterrence effect it would have on criminally minded people is severely diluted. The way it used to be implemented, it was a very good deterrent. Look at murder statistics from prior to the Courts becoming liberal.


86 posted on 07/26/2012 9:28:49 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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To: DiogenesLamp

I agree that whether nuts or not, dangerous people should be locked up. The finding of “not responsible by reason of insanity” is not, in theory, intended to set people free. Instead, the defendant gets turned over to the Department of Mental Health for regular commitment proceedings. The underlying theory is not per se invalid; if a person is mentally screwed up so badly that they cannot form criminal intent, then lock them up in a mental institution instead.

The problem is in the practice, and it’s two-fold. First is the idea of “temporary insanity,” in other words “I was nuts when I killed them, but I’m OK now.” As you might suspect, this defense usually does not fly, but there are occasions where the jury of whack jobs lets them go. There is no basis for a mental health commitment and thus they do get off completely free. The other problem is that for the past generation, the states closed down virtually all the mental health facilities and turned them out into the streets. So after a person found not responsible by reason of insanity is committed to the Department of Mental Health, they can flatten them out with drug cocktails for a few months and then say “all better now” and turn them loose.

That’s more a structural problem with how we treat the chronically mentally ill rather than a criminal legal problem.


87 posted on 07/26/2012 9:30:25 AM PDT by henkster (We're the slaves of the phony leaders...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Seems like an appropriate time to change my tagline.
88 posted on 07/26/2012 9:35:06 AM PDT by airborne (My heroes don't wear capes. My heroes wear dog tags!!!)
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To: henkster

I wish we did. Insane people who kill will kill again. We have had that proven in this state.


89 posted on 07/26/2012 9:43:08 AM PDT by Chickensoup (STOP The Great O-ppression)
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To: PapaBear3625

The legal concept of “insanity” came from British Common Law in the 1800’s, in “M’Naughton’s Case.” There are two elements to every crime that must be met: the criminal act (actus reaus) and the intent to commit the act (mens rea). Without an intent to commit the act, you cannot convict of a crime. Thus, in the law, there is no “crime” of “negligent homicide.” Having your head up your ass and causing an accident that kills someone is not criminally culpable, although that is becoming more blurred. Today, it seems there are prosecutors who believe everything bad that happens to anyone is a criminal act on somebody’s part, and an increasing number of American jurors are buying it. This is bad.

M’Naughton’s case involved a man with serious mental issues, and was decided before Freud started labeling mental illnesses. There were two wings to the original insanity defense in M’Naughton: inability to appreciate wrongfulness of conduct and “irresistable impulse.” Nobody recognizes “irresistable impulse” as a defense, only whether a person is so gravely disabled by mental disease or defect that they are incapable of appreciating the wrongfulness of their conduct.

In your case, it could be that they are unaware of what they are doing, or it could be that they are completely aware of what they are doing, but are so screwed up they don’t see it as wrong.

Case in point; the one murder case I prosecuted where the defendant was found not responsible by reason of insanity. Fifty-two year old Alice Gray shot her husband in the kitchen of their home. She had a documented history going back over 20 years of chronic, and progressively worsening, paranoid schizophrenia. She sincerely believed she was descended from Egyptian pharaohs, and as royalty, she had a right to kill her husband, who was a mere commoner.

The court-appointed shrinks said she was crazy. The jury agreed. I didn’t like it but under facts and the law, it was a proper verdict.


90 posted on 07/26/2012 9:43:08 AM PDT by henkster (We're the slaves of the phony leaders...)
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To: Steel Wolf
For whatever his point was, he went about it very efficiently. He’s not crazy by any means; far from it. This took quite a bit of research, forethought and precision.

It's mainly the Left that's trying to dismiss any possibility at all that he was politically motivated. They make no mention of the fact that the movie (Dark Knight...) bashes the Marxist 'Occupy' movement. That Holmes said to arresting police officers: "I am the Joker", the enemy of pro-Capitalist, pro-Conservative Batman. But even people here are automatically rejecting the possibility. Seems they have short memories and don't recall that most of these lunatics do ultimately turn out to be members of the far Left. Giffords shooter was a Leftist, as was triple-murderer Amy Bishop, the nut who crashed a plane into the IRS building, the 'unabomber', etc, etc.

91 posted on 07/26/2012 10:02:03 AM PDT by ETL (ALL (most?) of the Obama-commie connections at my FR Home page: http://www.freerepublic.com/~etl/)
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To: DiogenesLamp
Nonsense. The death penalty is not a very strong deterrent the way *WE* have been implementing it. Given that it takes a decade to execute someone, whatever deterrence effect it would have on criminally minded people is severely diluted. The way it used to be implemented, it was a very good deterrent. Look at murder statistics from prior to the Courts becoming liberal.

The increase in CCW and Stand Your Ground is resulting in more criminals being killed by private citizens than are executed, and likely has a bigger effect on criminal behavior.

I think a large factor in the rise of crime is the increase of kids being raised by single moms, thanks to welfare (fatherless kids are more likely to turn criminal) plus the tendency of the overloaded justice system to keep letting criminals plea bargain themselves out of serious jail time until they finally kill somebody.

92 posted on 07/26/2012 10:09:11 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (If I can't be persuasive, I at least hope to be fun.)
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To: Persevero
The Bible does not offer an insanity defense, either. Those who murder are to be put to death, regardless of their mental state.

Exceptions are given for true accidents; I am talking about deliberate murder.

An Accident is not a murder. Even reckless endangerment resulting in death is not a murder. As you say, a murder is the deliberate killing of people. These people should be put to death regardless of what motivated them.

93 posted on 07/26/2012 10:35:01 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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To: PapaBear3625

I just did a search on google and it gave me different results for tear gas grenades. I can’t click on the links b/c I am at work and my web filter won’t allow me to. But they are available.


94 posted on 07/26/2012 10:47:09 AM PDT by justice14 ("stand up defend or lay down and die")
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To: PapaBear3625
The increase in CCW and Stand Your Ground is resulting in more criminals being killed by private citizens than are executed, and likely has a bigger effect on criminal behavior.

I think a large factor in the rise of crime is the increase of kids being raised by single moms, thanks to welfare (fatherless kids are more likely to turn criminal) plus the tendency of the overloaded justice system to keep letting criminals plea bargain themselves out of serious jail time until they finally kill somebody.

I agree completely. As a matter of fact, I just made this same argument to others on another website two days ago.

http://www.talk-polywell.org/bb/viewtopic.php?p=88104&highlight=dice#88104

95 posted on 07/26/2012 10:54:28 AM PDT by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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To: Strategerist
I honestly think there are more people that believe in demonic posession on FR than that believe it’s possible for there to be chemically, structurally, or genetically based mental illness.

Maybe, though I see a lot of FR comments that tell me there are more posters here that believe in goobermint Manchurian candidates than believe in either demonic posession or mental illness.

96 posted on 07/26/2012 11:20:52 AM PDT by lonevoice (Today I broke my personal record for most consecutive days lived)
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To: knarf

I read somewhere that James Holmes was adopted. It would be interesting to know more about his biological gene pool.


97 posted on 07/26/2012 11:36:28 AM PDT by lonestar (It takes a village of idiots to elect a village idiot.)
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To: DiogenesLamp; Persevero
These people should be put to death regardless of what motivated them.

Some people have such severe psychosis they don't understand what they did or their brain is so wacked out it is not their fault.These are the ones that truly see in their mind you or I as a monster out to get them.

Are you saying the Bible(God) say's we should punish these people with death even though it is 100% out of their control?.....and yes people have such psychosis it is out of their control.

98 posted on 07/26/2012 11:48:05 AM PDT by trailhkr1 (Bigamy: Having at least one wife too many. Monogamy: Definitely having one wife too many.)
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To: DiogenesLamp
And what does that mean? Since we don't know who will commit a crime before the fact, it appears you are suggesting the creation of a "Department of Pre-Crime" as was demonstrated in the movie "Minority Report." I suggest that killing murderers will prevent future crime without the need to predict who will commit it before the fact.

No, but if they should develop a test that shows a baby/young adult is not producing the chemical in their brain that keeps them predesposed from being violent and a medication or other treatment is available that treats this condition then it should be done...just as thousands of medical conditions of all types are currently being used to treat illness.

99 posted on 07/26/2012 11:53:34 AM PDT by trailhkr1 (Bigamy: Having at least one wife too many. Monogamy: Definitely having one wife too many.)
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To: trailhkr1
Some people have such severe psychosis they don't understand what they did or their brain is so wacked out it is not their fault.These are the ones that truly see in their mind you or I as a monster out to get them.

I don't care. I care only that they are a dire threat to those around them and that they have already killed someone.

Are you saying the Bible(God) say's we should punish these people with death even though it is 100% out of their control?.....and yes people have such psychosis it is out of their control.

I am saying that we should execute mentally ill people who kill ESPECIALLY because they are out of control.

100 posted on 07/26/2012 12:10:57 PM PDT by DiogenesLamp (Partus Sequitur Patrem)
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