Warthog.
I saw them at an air show in Tucson, AZ. I can see why they scare the pants off the diaper head terrorists overseas.
They sometimes seemed like they could just hover and deliver a blast like a firehose on a target
Posted on 07/31/2012 9:26:07 AM PDT by moonshot925
The United States has spent nearly $80 billion to develop the most advanced stealth fighter jet in history, the F-22 Raptor, but the Air Force recently found out firsthand that while the planes own the skies at modern long-range air combat, it is "evenly matched" with cheaper, foreign jets when it comes to old-school dogfighting.
The F-22 made its debut at the international Red Flag Alaska training exercise this June where the planes "cleared the skies of simulated enemy forces and provided security for Australian, German, Japanese, Polish and [NATO] aircraft," according to an after-action public report by the Air Force. The F-22 took part in the exercise while under strict flying restrictions imposed by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta in light of mysterious, potentially deadly oxygen problems with the planes - problems that the Pentagon believes it has since solved.
The Air Force said the planes flew 80 missions during the event "with a very high mission success rate." However, a new report from Combat Aircraft Monthly revealed that in a handful of missions designed to test the F-22 in a very specific situation - close-range, one-on-one combat - the jet appeared to lose its pricey advantages over a friendly rival, the Eurofighter Typhoon, flown in this case by German airmen.
"We expected to perform less with the Eurofighter but we didn't," German air officer Marc Grune said, according to Combat Aircraft Monthly. "We were evenly matched. They didn't expect us to turn so aggressively."
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
Sure you aren’t confusing Hartmann with Jans-Joachim Marseille? He was the one noted for uncanny accuracy, very few rounds per kill, and deflection shooting, not Hartmann.
Personally, with all of his 158 kills vs. the British, I think he was the greatest fighter pilot of all time. Marseille’s kills vs. Hartmann’s is like comparing Div. I and Div. II football records.
geez at least two of you guys have explained critical elements of airware strategy. Is this type of info on Janes and other pulbic military sites or are we getting some great insider “stuf”
Warthog.
I saw them at an air show in Tucson, AZ. I can see why they scare the pants off the diaper head terrorists overseas.
They sometimes seemed like they could just hover and deliver a blast like a firehose on a target
In January 1941 the Soviets had over 23,000 tanks.
By December they had slightly less than 6,000.
The Germans completely annihilated the Soviets during Barbarossa and it would take awhile to recover.
I read Hartman’s biography. He was a fascinating person.
One thing I remember is tho all the other German aces said Hartman was the best long range shot, Hartman stressed getting as close as possible.
He said the guns were so much more effective at close range. He also continued to fly the BF-109 long after it was probably obsolete. He probably was just used to it and also he probably got the best equipment, latest improvements, best engines, ground crew etc..
Another interesting tid bit is his parents were missionaries to China. Erich grew up there.
IIRC, Hartman was shot down by American P-51s in May 1944.
They should have shot him up in his parachute.
/johnny
One thing to “learn” is that technologies improve. Big difference between vacuum tube BVR missiles of Vietnam like the early Sparrow (that would malfunction if you sneezed within 10 feet) and a modern solid-state BVR missle.
IFF has also improved.
Technologies that don’t live up to their billing in one conflict can be a different story 40 years later. History is useful, but to proclaim that because of Vietnam, BVR will not work till the end of time is silly.
Hartmann was never shot down. He survived many crashes, crash landings etc. but was never shot down, ever.
It's not a technology problem. It's a political problem.
/johnny
The first task in air combat is see the enemy. Then turn to meet him or surprise him from behind. Small, light, highly maneuverable aircraft have huge advantages in close combat. If a small plane is nearly impossible to see, it is nearly impossible to defeat. (Again in close ranges). By the way, using the new miniature electronics with networked UAS vehicles, along with small manned command combat aircraft, a very effective Air Force could be build for the cost of half a dozen F-22s.
Have they ever gamed the F-22 against the IDFAF?
That might prove to be interesting.
People are missing the key part of the article: where the German says that the Raptor pilots didn’t expect the Typhoons to turn so aggressively.
IOW, this isn’t about aircraft capability, it’s about the Germans doing something unexpected and blindsiding the American pilots by getting inside their OODA loops.
The F-22 is a conventional planform aircraft with 2-D thrust vectoring while the Typhoon is a delta wing with canards. The Typhoon also has helmet mounted sighting/queing. I’d guess that if the same exercise were to be held again the American Raptor jocks, with 20/20 hindsight, would eat the German’s lunches,
Thirty years ago I had a neighbor who worked full time for the Texas Air National Guard. He used to claim that his squadron (he was not a pilot) scored better than 2-1 over line Air Force squadrons. This was older (for fighter) pilots who flew F-4s on the weekends beating younger men, whose full time job was flying F-16s. The difference was experience. The Air National Guard pilots usually had several, or many, times the flying hours of the Air Force pilots, and many were Vietnam veterans.
On paper the Air Force, with full time fighter pilots, who being younger had faster reflexes, flying the 1970s era F-16, should have dominated the Air National Guard pilots flying 1950s F-4s.
As I said, Hartmann was never shot down.
In his first 3 missions he crashed, once by getting hit by parts of a Stomrovik, the other times by either foul ups by him or failure of the aircraft.
He also was hit by parts and crashed behind Russian lines. He was captured and pretended to be a reporter and screamed with pain any time he was touched. The Russians threw him in the back of a truck and when he got the chance he slipped out and made his way back to German lines.
Hartmann never flew against Americans except in a very short time while flying jets. He did report seeing a large flight of American planes meeting a similar sized group of Russian ones. To his surprise the Russians attacked the Americans. The Americans ended up shooting a bunch of the Russian ones down. Apparently this encounter was kept secret during and after the war.
I have no doubt the Russians claimed to have shot him down but Hartmann was always adamant that he had never been shot down,
My cousin is an F-16 pilot who has trained with/against the F-22 pilots. He tells me that they are virtually invisible in the skies. He said that if they come on radar in his F-16, he only sees them for a brief second and then they are gone. He said that it’s very hard to get a lock on them.
True. And they had a LOT of crummy tanks, too, like the BT series, the T-26, and “land cruiser” T-35. But, in 1940, they already had the T-34, which would eventually take them to Berlin.
Thanks for the color! All interesting bits of history.
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