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F-22 Fighter Loses $79 Billion Advantage in Dogfights: Report
ABC News/Yahoo News ^ | 30 July 2012 | Lee Ferran

Posted on 07/31/2012 9:26:07 AM PDT by moonshot925

The United States has spent nearly $80 billion to develop the most advanced stealth fighter jet in history, the F-22 Raptor, but the Air Force recently found out firsthand that while the planes own the skies at modern long-range air combat, it is "evenly matched" with cheaper, foreign jets when it comes to old-school dogfighting.

The F-22 made its debut at the international Red Flag Alaska training exercise this June where the planes "cleared the skies of simulated enemy forces and provided security for Australian, German, Japanese, Polish and [NATO] aircraft," according to an after-action public report by the Air Force. The F-22 took part in the exercise while under strict flying restrictions imposed by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta in light of mysterious, potentially deadly oxygen problems with the planes - problems that the Pentagon believes it has since solved.

The Air Force said the planes flew 80 missions during the event "with a very high mission success rate." However, a new report from Combat Aircraft Monthly revealed that in a handful of missions designed to test the F-22 in a very specific situation - close-range, one-on-one combat - the jet appeared to lose its pricey advantages over a friendly rival, the Eurofighter Typhoon, flown in this case by German airmen.

"We expected to perform less with the Eurofighter but we didn't," German air officer Marc Grune said, according to Combat Aircraft Monthly. "We were evenly matched. They didn't expect us to turn so aggressively."

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: aerospace; airforce; dogfight; f22; typhoon
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To: moonshot925

The first task in air combat is see the enemy. Then turn to meet him or surprise him from behind. Small, light, highly maneuverable aircraft have huge advantages in close combat. If a small plane is nearly impossible to see, it is nearly impossible to defeat. (Again in close ranges). By the way, using the new miniature electronics with networked UAS vehicles, along with small manned command combat aircraft, a very effective Air Force could be build for the cost of half a dozen F-22s.


51 posted on 07/31/2012 10:37:21 AM PDT by LukeSW (The truth shall make you free!)
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To: yarddog
Hartmann was never shot down.
However, following his 90th victory on 20 August 1943, Hartmann was shot down in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 20 485), and captured.

LINK

52 posted on 07/31/2012 10:39:52 AM PDT by moonshot925
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To: moonshot925

Have they ever gamed the F-22 against the IDFAF?

That might prove to be interesting.


53 posted on 07/31/2012 10:43:54 AM PDT by George Varnum (Liberty, like our Forefather's Flintlock Musket, must be kept clean, oiled, and READY!)
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To: moonshot925

People are missing the key part of the article: where the German says that the Raptor pilots didn’t expect the Typhoons to turn so aggressively.

IOW, this isn’t about aircraft capability, it’s about the Germans doing something unexpected and blindsiding the American pilots by getting inside their OODA loops.

The F-22 is a conventional planform aircraft with 2-D thrust vectoring while the Typhoon is a delta wing with canards. The Typhoon also has helmet mounted sighting/queing. I’d guess that if the same exercise were to be held again the American Raptor jocks, with 20/20 hindsight, would eat the German’s lunches,


54 posted on 07/31/2012 10:47:15 AM PDT by tanknetter
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To: RightOnline
the quality of the pilot is as important or MORE important than the aircraft. True, speed, acceleration, avionics, etc. ALL count in a big way.....but a far superior pilot in a lesser aircraft can still kick yer ass.

Thirty years ago I had a neighbor who worked full time for the Texas Air National Guard. He used to claim that his squadron (he was not a pilot) scored better than 2-1 over line Air Force squadrons. This was older (for fighter) pilots who flew F-4s on the weekends beating younger men, whose full time job was flying F-16s. The difference was experience. The Air National Guard pilots usually had several, or many, times the flying hours of the Air Force pilots, and many were Vietnam veterans.

On paper the Air Force, with full time fighter pilots, who being younger had faster reflexes, flying the 1970s era F-16, should have dominated the Air National Guard pilots flying 1950s F-4s.

55 posted on 07/31/2012 10:50:13 AM PDT by Pilsner
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To: moonshot925

As I said, Hartmann was never shot down.

In his first 3 missions he crashed, once by getting hit by parts of a Stomrovik, the other times by either foul ups by him or failure of the aircraft.

He also was hit by parts and crashed behind Russian lines. He was captured and pretended to be a reporter and screamed with pain any time he was touched. The Russians threw him in the back of a truck and when he got the chance he slipped out and made his way back to German lines.

Hartmann never flew against Americans except in a very short time while flying jets. He did report seeing a large flight of American planes meeting a similar sized group of Russian ones. To his surprise the Russians attacked the Americans. The Americans ended up shooting a bunch of the Russian ones down. Apparently this encounter was kept secret during and after the war.

I have no doubt the Russians claimed to have shot him down but Hartmann was always adamant that he had never been shot down,


56 posted on 07/31/2012 10:51:38 AM PDT by yarddog
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To: moonshot925

My cousin is an F-16 pilot who has trained with/against the F-22 pilots. He tells me that they are virtually invisible in the skies. He said that if they come on radar in his F-16, he only sees them for a brief second and then they are gone. He said that it’s very hard to get a lock on them.


57 posted on 07/31/2012 10:54:21 AM PDT by trackman
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To: moonshot925
That's precisely the problem; USAF is relying on a long range, radar-based advantage, when new radars are defeating stealth technology and long range missiles are still statistically unreliable (by far the most reliable missile in our arsenal: short range all-aspect AIM-9's). Even the latest AMRAAM variants have sub-40 percent kill probabilities at range. And that's without countermeasures from opposing aircraft. The Raptor doesn't exactly maneuver like a pig, but smaller aircraft... F-16's, classic Hornets, Typhoons, etc... can outmaneuver the Raptor in a knife fight.
58 posted on 07/31/2012 10:59:31 AM PDT by DesScorp
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To: moonshot925

True. And they had a LOT of crummy tanks, too, like the BT series, the T-26, and “land cruiser” T-35. But, in 1940, they already had the T-34, which would eventually take them to Berlin.


59 posted on 07/31/2012 11:14:37 AM PDT by Little Ray (AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Little Ray

Thanks for the color! All interesting bits of history.


60 posted on 07/31/2012 11:14:48 AM PDT by RinaseaofDs (Does beheading qualify as 'breaking my back', in the Jeffersonian sense of the expression?)
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To: DesScorp
There is a reason they call them MISSles and not HITles. ;)

/johnny

61 posted on 07/31/2012 11:17:19 AM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: yarddog
Hartmann was never shot down. He survived many crashes, crash landings etc. but was never shot down, ever.

My favorite is Oberst Hans-Ulrich Rudel. The most decorated German pilot of WWII (Panzerjäger, Panzerchlachtflieger, Schlachtflieger, Schnellkampflieger, Zerstörerflieger, Jagdflieger ). He was consulted when the A10 warthog was being designed due to his 500 Ruski tank victories in WWII.

62 posted on 07/31/2012 11:28:58 AM PDT by Erich von Manstein (You need to see things my way!)
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To: Little Ray

My Father had several pictures of the first Russian tank to enter Berlin. He took pictures in 1945 of the monument being constructed and a few after it was completed.

Daddy simply described it as a “Stalin tank”. When he was in a nursing home not too long before he died, I took a bunch of his WWII pics to let him look at. Daddy smiled at the Stalin tank and said it was blown up during the night. Daddy had Alzheimers so I wasn’t sure if his memory was right.

Anyway I looked up on the internet, the first Russian tank in Berlin and sure enough, there are now two T-34s. They are in the same place (Tiergarten Square) so apparently after the first one was blown up they simply found two other “first” tanks into Berlin.


63 posted on 07/31/2012 11:44:10 AM PDT by yarddog
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To: moonshot925
I think most of the responders are missing the key point.

They only asked one of the sides how they did! If a fighter pilot says his side won about half the time, the actual success rate was probably about 5%.

I work for one of the major aerospace companies. A few years ago our Operations Analysis types visited squadrons that operated our aircraft. We asked: What can we do to make your (our) airplane better?

The answer was always: Not a thing. They all said they had the best fighter ever made, and that they could wipe out any other pilots in any other planes anywhere in the world. They're fighter pilots!

So our Ops Analysis guys went to Brand X squadrons and asked, "What do you do to fight (our aircraft)?"

From them we got some good insight. But what we found was that those who said, "I can win about half the time" were losing virtually all the time. The pilots who said, "I win damn near all the time," were winning half the time, and those who said they never lost were also lying . . . but they truly did win most of the time.

The problem with the Typhoon in particular is that - like all the canard/deltas - it bleeds energy in a fight so fast that they get about half of one good turn and then they're a rock. Good tactics - particularly team tactics where you don't fight one-on-one anyway - eat fighters that have that single trick for breakfast, lunch, and dinner.

One last story, this time from the 'other' side as well. During the F-22 operational test and evaluation, they flew against F-15s. This was to develop tactics, so they were not limited by pre-ordained rules of engagement. The F-15 pilot was asked, "How hard is to fight an F-22 in an F-15?"

His answer was, "It's easy. You go up. You die. You go up. You die."
64 posted on 07/31/2012 11:45:08 AM PDT by Phlyer
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To: Future Snake Eater
strict flying restrictions imposed by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta
65 posted on 07/31/2012 11:57:48 AM PDT by tayper (Granny told me, Saying it don't make it so)
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To: moonshot925

Yes, the AESA is a huge advantage, until jamming tech improves and takes that away, they your BVR advantage vanishes. What the Russkies practiced all day long.


66 posted on 07/31/2012 12:31:26 PM PDT by doorgunner69
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To: Strategerist

I might be confusing the two. Its been a while since I was reading up on either.


67 posted on 07/31/2012 12:56:53 PM PDT by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: Shadow44

Sounds like the F22 pilots just need to continue to have dog fighting tactics pounded into them. You dominate the stand off fights but you need to know how to win in a turning knife fight as well.


68 posted on 07/31/2012 1:22:49 PM PDT by sarge83
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bmfl


69 posted on 07/31/2012 1:35:09 PM PDT by Moltke ("I am Dr. Sonderborg," he said, "and I don't want any nonsense.")
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To: yarddog

The JS series were darn good tanks, too.
I’m sure your father had nothing to do with that “unfortunate” incident...
Bless him.


70 posted on 07/31/2012 1:44:44 PM PDT by Little Ray (AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: Little Ray
Photobucket I don't think Daddy personally had anything to do with it but he did laugh and say some thought the 208th, which was the combat engineering battalion he belonged to, may have done it. The picture is of the tank and that is my Father sitting there.
71 posted on 07/31/2012 1:49:18 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: RinaseaofDs
Quantity has a quality all its own. We’ve also made this aviation mistake before - eschewing dogfighting - thinking that dogfighting was a thing of the past.

I've seen it happen time and time again in business the same as in government: Managers just continue to look for the "one size fits all" solution, when what is needed is a balanced approach.

Life and conflict are very rarely "either/or" situations; rather, success comes from having combinations of both.

72 posted on 07/31/2012 1:51:47 PM PDT by Real Cynic No More
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To: rlmorel
A Growler, eh? How does that work?

The pilot ain't sayin'. Read what little there is to read at The DEW Line blog.

73 posted on 07/31/2012 3:52:00 PM PDT by Yo-Yo
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To: JRandomFreeper

More than you would think. What concerns me is in a REAL war our city’s and manufacturing base will be crippled, or at the very least our supply lines will be strenuous at best.

Its going to be a lot harder to produce & distribute theses very complex missile systems, assuming we could ever build enough of them to take down an air-force more than 5 times more numerous than our own.


74 posted on 07/31/2012 5:54:13 PM PDT by Monorprise
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To: Monorprise
Give me numbers. Every air engagement from the gulf war forward is detailed, and there was 1 each BVR air-to-air by F-15s. That was actually run by an AWACs.

An Iraqi Mig-25 did take an F-18 out with a BVR shot.

There aren't many examples out there. The ROE don't generally allow it.

Are you a zoomie?

/johnny

75 posted on 07/31/2012 6:01:20 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: rlmorel
A Growler, eh? How does that work?

Once upon a time there were some old crows.....

/johnny

76 posted on 07/31/2012 6:12:38 PM PDT by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: moonshot925

It is ridiculous to discuss “old school dogfighting” when the Raptor has already shot down all opponents beyond the horizon, long before they can close.


77 posted on 07/31/2012 7:21:41 PM PDT by Freedom_Is_Not_Free (REPEAL OBAMACARE. Nothing else matters.)
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To: Army Air Corps

Thanks for the ping.

I am told the 22 pilots were severly restricted in the tactics they were able to use.


78 posted on 07/31/2012 7:29:43 PM PDT by Jet Jaguar
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To: MtBaldy

Or maybe you don’t show off your best capabilities in public.


79 posted on 07/31/2012 8:41:29 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Yo-Yo

Interesting. I guess I can understand him being close-mouthed. Love to hear about that “well timed” shot...:)


80 posted on 07/31/2012 9:15:52 PM PDT by rlmorel ("The safest road to Hell is the gradual one." Screwtape (C.S. Lewis))
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To: Phlyer

I met a pilot who has flown every fighter aircraft in the US inventory except the F-22. When asked, he said he had flown against them.

I asked him what that was like to fly against an F-22, and his exact words were: “It was like being a baby seal.”


81 posted on 07/31/2012 9:21:23 PM PDT by rlmorel ("The safest road to Hell is the gradual one." Screwtape (C.S. Lewis))
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To: Yo-Yo
This ain't news. The F-22 has been overhyped since before it became a CAD file. Zoomie kool aid loses its taste pretty fast in the real world. You might try posting some contemporary photos as well.


82 posted on 07/31/2012 9:41:32 PM PDT by A.A. Cunningham (Barry Soetoro is a Kenyan communist)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Let's include a Typhoon with an F/A-18 kill.

As this Air Force Colonel explained, if the F-22 pilot gets too aggressive in post-stall maneuvering, he is a sitting duck. I can see how a Raptor pilot could get in that situation with the tight-turning canard-equipped Typhoon.

No, the Raptor isn't invincible, and without even the modern basics like a Helmet Mounted Cueing and Sighting System, it is even more crippled in the WVR dogfight.

83 posted on 08/01/2012 4:03:16 AM PDT by Yo-Yo
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To: Little Ray
There were other issues. The Tiger tanks, and worse King Tiger tanks, were too heavy for their transmissions. The Germans over-engineered the Panthers with an aluminum aircraft-type engine, which was hard to build or maintain. Worse (for them), they used slave labor to build these. The slave labor kept sabotaging them.

The T-35 with the 85mm cannon was a great tank. I believe that they were actually in combat in the 1980s in Africa.
84 posted on 10/17/2012 2:22:39 PM PDT by rmlew ("Mosques are our barracks, minarets our bayonets, domes our helmets, the believers our soldiers.")
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To: rmlew

The T-34/85 was a great tank and is, I think, still in service some cessppit third world nations who think of tanks as a means of “crown control.” The Soviets also took scads of them to the Soviet/Chinese border and buried up to their turret rings in concrete and dirt to create pillboxes.


85 posted on 10/18/2012 5:14:09 AM PDT by Little Ray (AGAINST Obama in the General.)
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To: moonshot925
The AESA AN/APG-77 radar on the F-22 is very powerful and advanced. Should give it the advantage in BVR combat.

The F4 Phantom was designed to shoot down enemy planes at extreme range. Then in Vietnam, LBJ set the rules of engagement so that they had to visually identify the target, which meant they had to get to within dog-fighting range. And the designers never gave the F4 a gun.

86 posted on 10/18/2012 5:19:56 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (political correctness is communist thought control, disguised as good manners)
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To: fremont_steve
My understanding is that the F-22 flights use a tactic of flying in pairs, with one well behind the second. The tail-end guy is a radar emitter, i.e. he can be found if they can track the F22 radar. The plane in front gets a telemetry feed of the radar image from the back-end plane and shoots his missiles. The aggressor never knows where the missiles came from!

It would be neat if we could have an expendable UAV, with just a radar emitter to paint targets for our planes.

87 posted on 10/18/2012 5:24:34 AM PDT by PapaBear3625 (political correctness is communist thought control, disguised as good manners)
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