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Girl of 10 can choose to convert from Judaism to Christianity
Telegraph (UK) ^ | 10:00PM BST 02 Aug 2012 | By Martin Beckford, Home Affairs Editor

Posted on 08/02/2012 3:28:17 PM PDT by DeaconBenjamin

A 10-year-old Jewish girl may become a Christian after a judge rejected claims by her mother that she had been “brainwashed” and was too young to change faith.

Judge John Platt said: “My job is to decide simply what is best for you and I have decided that the best thing for you is that you are allowed to start your baptism classes as soon as they can be arranged and that you are baptised as a Christian as soon as your minister feels you are ready.” But the judge stressed that it did not mean the girl would lose her Jewish heritage.

The girl was born in 2001 to Jewish parents. Her mother and father divorced in 2010 and she, and her younger brother, live for a week at a time with each.

Her father converted to Christianity after the breakdown of his marriage.

In November the girl’s mother, without telling anyone, sought a court order forbidding the father from baptising or confirming her into the Christian faith.

The father said his daughter told him after an evangelical Christian festival that she had “experienced an encounter with God”. He was initially sceptical and thought she was just “on a high”. The father also said he was “unhappy” when the girl went behind his back to talk to a Sunday school teacher about being baptised.

The girl’s grandparents accused her father of forcing her to give up her Jewish heritage, while a rabbi told the court it would be “unnatural to their soul” to make a child change religion. The judge was scathing about these claims, saying that neither the mother nor the grandparents had made “any real effort” to consider what was best for the girl while the rabbi’s letter was made in “inflammatory terms without any supporting evidence”.

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: freedomofreligion

1 posted on 08/02/2012 3:28:23 PM PDT by DeaconBenjamin
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To: DeaconBenjamin

What? Before her Bat Mitzvah?


2 posted on 08/02/2012 3:30:12 PM PDT by null and void (Day 1290 of our ObamaVacation from reality - Heroes aren't made Frank, they're cornered...)
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To: DeaconBenjamin
“My job is to decide simply what is best for you and I have decided that the best thing for you is...

The horrying attitude of most judges and politicians.

Time to make a clean sweep.

3 posted on 08/02/2012 3:31:20 PM PDT by Drill Thrawl (I can haz CW 2 now?)
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To: DeaconBenjamin
Why shouldn't she be able to? Brainwashed? How silly.And yes,the opposite conversion (Christian to Jewish) should have been allowed too.
4 posted on 08/02/2012 3:34:21 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Poor Barack.If He's Reelected,Think Of The Mess He'll Inherit!)
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To: Drill Thrawl

“The horrying attitude of most judges and politicians.”

Naa. They’re just clearing the decks to allow mass conversion to Islam - as the Brits will find out when Muslims hit the 30% mark, with 55% of the younger adults being Muslim, and the non-Muslims being too few and too old to fight.

It’s over.


5 posted on 08/02/2012 3:35:19 PM PDT by BobL (Cruz'd to Victory - July 31, 2012)
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To: DeaconBenjamin

What’s the big deal? Those monotheists are all alike anyway.


6 posted on 08/02/2012 3:39:26 PM PDT by gorush (History repeats itself because human nature is static)
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To: DeaconBenjamin

If she tried that from Islam she would be killed.


7 posted on 08/02/2012 3:46:35 PM PDT by Anti-Bubba182
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To: DeaconBenjamin

let’s see here...give up Judaism and convert to an erroneous version of Christianity....how good is that? I guess, because she will be baptized, she will at least be absolved of original sin. Christ, however, laid out a plan for salvation and the protestant church wasn’t mentioned anywhere....in fact it didn’t exist for 1,600 years after He laid out the plan.


8 posted on 08/02/2012 3:47:23 PM PDT by terycarl (lurking, but well informed)
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To: Drill Thrawl

>>The horrying attitude of most judges and politicians.<<

Before we knee-jerk, reread the article. It appears Dad is an evangelical Christian and Mom is Jewish.

This is REALLY Mom v. Dad - the judge is using the kid’s wishes as a tie-breaker IMHO.


9 posted on 08/02/2012 3:51:10 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (obozo could bring back literal slavery with chains and still he will get 85+% of the black vote)
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To: terycarl
>> convert to an erroneous version of Christianity....how good is that? I guess, because she will be baptized, she will at least be absolved of original sin. Christ, however, laid out a plan for salvation and the protestant church wasn’t mentioned anywhere....in fact it didn’t exist for 1,600 years after He laid out the plan. <<

I didn't see anywhere in the article mentioning she wants to convert to a protestant denomination. In fact, the article talks about the dad who converted before her and mentions "The judge said it was “wholly wrong” for the mother to go to court without discussing it with the father or his priest." If the father's pastor is a priest, then he's probably Catholic, or possibly (though unlikely) Orthodox.

10 posted on 08/02/2012 3:52:33 PM PDT by BillyBoy (Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
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To: terycarl
give up Judaism and convert to an erroneous version of Christianity

Which version would that be?

11 posted on 08/02/2012 3:52:57 PM PDT by freedumb2003 (obozo could bring back literal slavery with chains and still he will get 85+% of the black vote)
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To: BillyBoy

“If the father’s pastor is a priest, then he’s probably Catholic, or possibly (though unlikely) Orthodox. ‘
________

Or Episcopalean (sp?).


12 posted on 08/02/2012 3:55:09 PM PDT by rem_mitchell
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To: Gay State Conservative

She can believe in her heart whatever she wants. As for outward signs of a religion (church attendance, baptism, or in other cases wearing a hajib, mosque attendance, or in other cases circumcision, wearing a special hat, attending temple) are up to her parents until she is independent.

In this case, dad’s ok with it, mom’s not, I say let the child split the difference and so as she wills.

That’s the way I see it.


13 posted on 08/02/2012 3:56:34 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: terycarl

“. Christ, however, laid out a plan for salvation and the protestant church wasn’t mentioned anywhere”

Terycarl, he didn’t mention Roman Catholics, either. He just mentions the church, which RC’s think means them, and Protestants thinks means them.

FYI Bible believing Protestants believe they are the true church, maintained since apostolic times, just like the RC’s do. Where RCs say Protestants left to go with bad doctrine, Protestants say RCs left to go with bad doctrine.


14 posted on 08/02/2012 3:59:26 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: DeaconBenjamin

I thought the judge handled it pretty well. He didn’t ask for the case, the parents brought it to him.

He ruled that the girl could continue to study the religion that drew her, that she would still have her jewish roots, and that her parents would continue to love her whatever happened.

I thought he handled it correctly and sensitively. A judge should not be deciding what your religion should be and he didn’t try to. He just refused to deny the girl her right to believe what she already believed which was her father’s religion. Had she been from a Christian mother attracted to her father’s jewish faith the correct answer would still be the same.


15 posted on 08/02/2012 4:00:26 PM PDT by marron
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To: Persevero
"FYI Bible believing Protestants believe they are the true church, maintained since apostolic times, just like the RC’s do. Where RCs say Protestants left to go with bad doctrine, Protestants say RCs left to go with bad doctrine."

Except one of those holds that the Scriptures are the authority for believers, the other clings to a single guy in a bathrobe, with a pointy hat.

16 posted on 08/02/2012 4:08:38 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: terycarl
I guess, because she will be baptized, she will at least be absolved of original sin. Christ, however, laid out a plan for salvation and the protestant church wasn’t mentioned anywhere....in fact it didn’t exist for 1,600 years after He laid out the plan.

Hm there are several incorrect things in your statement, but let's start with the idea that Jesus laid out a plan for salvation. Jesus said "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am [the one I claim to be] and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me." therefore, if we are honest it is not Jesus's plan of salvation, but the Father's. {Jesus is merely the executor of it. (If "merely" can be applied to Jesus, that is.)}

Secondly, where can you find the doctrine that baptism washes away sin, original or otherwise? 1 John 1:7 states clearly that it is Jesus's own blood that washes away all sin. {Then there's Paul and James to consider.}

17 posted on 08/02/2012 4:22:06 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: freedumb2003
Before we knee-jerk, reread the article. It appears Dad is an evangelical Christian and Mom is Jewish.

This is REALLY Mom v. Dad - the judge is using the kid’s wishes as a tie-breaker IMHO.

EXACTLY.

I must admit I get tired of FReepers who immediately blame "big government" without knowing the facts.

Courts have had to, for hundreds of years, parse between religious convictions of divorced couples' kids. Nothing new, nor "big government"-like about this case. Just rather sad.

Similarly, libertarian-minded folks think if only government "got out of the marriage business," the homosexual-marriage debate would go away.

Such individuals know nothing about the complexities of English law involving marriage--complexities going back hundreds of years.

18 posted on 08/02/2012 4:27:07 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (reality is analog, not digital...)
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To: freedumb2003

Baptismal regeneration isn’t as easy to dismiss as many want to assume:
“Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...” (1 Peter 3:21, in the New American Standard Bible (widely considered the most literal of English translations))


19 posted on 08/02/2012 4:31:51 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (reality is analog, not digital...)
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To: OneWingedShark; freedumb2003

Whoops, I meant to send the below to OneWingedShark, not freedumb2003.

Baptismal regeneration isn’t as easy to dismiss as many want to assume:
“Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you— not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ...” (1 Peter 3:21, in the New American Standard Bible (widely considered the most literal of English translations))

I’m not really here to argue about baptism though... My main point is like freedumb2003—this is a parental custody issue, NOT a Judge-determining-religion/big government issue.


20 posted on 08/02/2012 4:38:32 PM PDT by AnalogReigns (reality is analog, not digital...)
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To: DeaconBenjamin

The thing is that this girl can make that decision and not have her throat slit or being stoned to death as happens in Islam.

She can ALWAYS repent and convert back at a later date. That is the beauty of Christianity and Judaism.

Try that in Libia, Syria, Iran, Irak, Pakistan, Egypt, Lebanon, etc., etc., etc..


21 posted on 08/02/2012 4:47:58 PM PDT by jongaltsr
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To: AnalogReigns
I’m not really here to argue about baptism though... My main point is like freedumb2003—this is a parental custody issue, NOT a Judge-determining-religion/big government issue.

It was UK, so all my US knowledge is inapplicable. If it were, I could dig up relevant state constitutions and make an argument.

22 posted on 08/02/2012 4:56:10 PM PDT by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: BobL

“as the Brits will find out when Muslims hit the 30% mark”

Well we’re currently at 2.9% so only another 27.1% to go then though with muslim immigration slowing and having taken 40 years to get to 2.9, I make that about 400 years give or take.

“with 55% of the younger adults being Muslim”

Bearing in mind the above 2.9%, can you spot the statistical unlikelihood of your figure being anywhere near true?

The UK is 92% white British and the US is nearing a white minority and has a foreign muslim president, so you’ll forgive me if I take your guessed at numbers with a large pinch of salt.


23 posted on 08/02/2012 4:57:06 PM PDT by Caulkhead
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To: Caulkhead

“Well we’re currently at 2.9% so only another 27.1% to go then though with muslim immigration slowing and having taken 40 years to get to 2.9, I make that about 400 years give or take.”

Considering that you ALREADY have Sharia zones, I’d say your timetable is a bit optimistic for your retirement plans.


24 posted on 08/02/2012 5:02:06 PM PDT by BobL (Cruz'd to Victory - July 31, 2012)
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To: BobL

Shariah zones?


25 posted on 08/02/2012 6:01:36 PM PDT by WilliamTells
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To: WilliamTells

Yea, really sad. But even sadder are the DENIERS, that think (or, more likely, say) that England will be JUST FINE, even after being taken over by these people.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2019547/Anjem-Choudary-Islamic-extremists-set-Sharia-law-zones-UK-cities.html


26 posted on 08/02/2012 6:07:35 PM PDT by BobL (Cruz'd to Victory - July 31, 2012)
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To: AnalogReigns
the New American Standard Bible (widely considered the most literal of English translations)

LOL! I had a friend who used to call it Walt Disney Word.

27 posted on 08/02/2012 6:19:41 PM PDT by DeaconBenjamin (A trillion here, a trillion there, soon you're NOT talking real money)
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To: BobL

Ah, Anjem Choudary. I thought you might be referring to him. How exactly is he and his little band of muslim poseurs taking over?


28 posted on 08/02/2012 6:20:43 PM PDT by WilliamTells
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To: gorush; All
Some "conservatives" commenting don't understand Freedom of Religion applies as an individual right (yes I know this wasn't a US court case).

The girl's choosing to follow her father's new found faith rather than her mother's tradition. The mother has no business going to the court to stop her daughter... incredible, the fascistic thought process she must have there!

It's not surprising an adherent to a faith which compels physically altering half of children born to its followers doesn't grasp the idea of individual liberty and personal religious freedom.

29 posted on 08/02/2012 6:20:57 PM PDT by newzjunkey (Pontius Pilate 'voters' are arrogant, delusional, lilly-livered collaborators.)
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To: WilliamTells

“Ah, Anjem Choudary. I thought you might be referring to him. How exactly is he and his little band of muslim poseurs taking over?”

So you knew it and acted dumb - explains a lot.

If only he was alone in preaching his brand of Islam in England. Ask ANYONE that works in the prison system there - you will find your answer.

Sorry it’s so hard to accept. But when you turn up the heat SLOWLY, a lot of people get lulled into thinking everything is JUST FINE. Now you wouldn’t be one of them - or, if so, why are you on this site?


30 posted on 08/02/2012 6:27:29 PM PDT by BobL (Cruz'd to Victory - July 31, 2012)
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To: BobL
"So you knew it and acted dumb - explains a lot."

Does it? I thought you might be thinking of Choudary, or maybe the shariah stickers someone posted in East London a while back. Didn't know, though, so I asked.

31 posted on 08/02/2012 6:38:43 PM PDT by WilliamTells
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To: DeaconBenjamin

Look I respect Jews, and like Jewish people, but once Jesus has changed your heart (as the Messiah will if allowed) a person doesn’t want to go back. We ~need~ God’s Grace. I hope this doesn’t offend any Jewish freepers and yes God cares about you, we just know that Jesus was/is the messiah and no one can (nor would) cut off an arm same as being cut off from Jesus.

God Bless this child.


32 posted on 08/02/2012 10:11:07 PM PDT by JSDude1
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To: Dutchboy88

“Except one of those holds that the Scriptures are the authority for believers, the other clings to a single guy in a bathrobe, with a pointy hat. “

Spoken like a true Dutchboy! :)


33 posted on 08/02/2012 10:36:14 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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To: BobL

“Considering that you ALREADY have Sharia zones, I’d say your timetable is a bit optimistic for your retirement plans.”

So do you. Sharia zone simply means muslims with a disagreement ask their imam to decide without including the courts or police. They exist wherever muslims live.


34 posted on 08/03/2012 2:16:49 AM PDT by Caulkhead
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To: Caulkhead

“So do you. Sharia zone simply means muslims with a disagreement ask their imam to decide without including the courts or police. They exist wherever muslims live.”

I realize that you’re not permitted in those zones, but there have been a lot of reports on what’s going on there - and one just has to read the signs on the perimeters.

Here in the States, we have one set of laws and one set of courts. We do not have religious courts and you can tell me until you’re blue in the face that “both sides” have to agree to go to an Islamic Court and abide by the ruling. But there’s one problem with that - the wife doesn’t have a choice - unless she’s willing to give up her kids and move to another part of the country to get away from her angry neighbors and family. In other words, once you allow the courts, then they do get the force of law - and not by full consent - at least in that culture.

Do you REALLY think the women there all want to wear space suits every time they walk out the front door? But they do! Think about it - it’s the first - like France is starting to do.


35 posted on 08/03/2012 2:31:11 AM PDT by BobL (Cruz'd to Victory - July 31, 2012)
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To: freedumb2003
give up Judaism and convert to an erroneous version of Christianity Which version would that be?

any man made version....Luther's, Wesley's, Knox"s, Henry VIII"s, L.Ron Hubbard's, whatever....Only the true Christian religion, established by Christ, on the Apostles, is acceptable

36 posted on 08/03/2012 1:43:12 PM PDT by terycarl (lurking, but well informed)
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To: BobL

“I realize that you’re not permitted in those zones, but there have been a lot of reports on what’s going on there - and one just has to read the signs on the perimeters.

This is a figment of your imagination. They do not exist physically. If they do you’ll easily be able to post a pic of one of these perimeter signs and show you’re right.

“Here in the States, we have one set of laws and one set of courts. We do not have religious courts and you can tell me until you’re blue in the face that “both sides” have to agree to go to an Islamic Court and abide by the ruling.”

No, both sides have to agree in the UK for a Sharia ‘court’ to decide an issue and no UK laws must’ve been broken, it can only decide on civil matters. In the US judges are ruling that Sharia law is legal, forcing US citizens who don’t want sharia to take part and denying their right to appeal. This is way ahead of anything allowed here in the UK.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/03/sharia_victory_in_florida_threatens_human_rights.html

You’re walking into sharia in America without realising it while criticising countries like the UK who are not forcing sharia on unwilling citizens like US courts are. Wake up and smell your own coffee instead of pointing fingers at others.


37 posted on 08/03/2012 2:44:21 PM PDT by Caulkhead
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To: Caulkhead

“This is a figment of your imagination.”

I understand the need for saying stuff like this, as the reality of what’s happening over there is simply so FRIGHTENING and almost certain to result in a civil war (once the aggressive side feels they have the resources to win...as in Kosovo and Lebanon).

I get all that, and that’s fine. But I’m hoping to reach real Brits, so that they pay attention and are ready to deal with the issue - before it’s too late for them. They really don’t have much time left to step up and fight for their way of life.

I’m sure you guys would, at least, agree to that.


38 posted on 08/03/2012 3:34:29 PM PDT by BobL (Cruz'd to Victory - July 31, 2012)
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To: BobL

Stop your blathering and post a pic of these signs that stop me entering Sharia zones in the UK or admit you made it up.

I was good enough to post a source supporting my argument, please do the same.

Also feel free to post a link showing UK citizens being forced to use sharia against their will by the courts as I did for you in the US.

You don’t need to reach the ‘real Brits’ and warn us. You don’t seem to understand it’s the US that has the greatest problem. Your courts are forcing citizens to accept sharia, ours aren’t, you’re an officially secular country, we’re officially christian, you are nearly a white minority country, we are 92% white British. You have the black, muslim, foreign president, we don’t.

Physician, heal thyself instead of posting made up and unsupportable nonsense you got from the MSM about a country you seem to know little about.


39 posted on 08/04/2012 6:17:52 AM PDT by Caulkhead
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To: Caulkhead

I already explained how the culture works there. Sure, Sharia courts are ‘voluntary’ - for men. But, for women there, they have a choice to either go it alone in Britain (i.e., start a new life), or submit to the court, when there’s a dispute. There are numerous websites out there that explain this.

The courts have NO BUSINESS in either of our countries. But I agree, we do have serious problems too and I find it scary the way Democrats and their judges (in the US) defend these courts when others want them out.


40 posted on 08/04/2012 7:31:27 AM PDT by BobL (Cruz'd to Victory - July 31, 2012)
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To: terycarl

Boy will you have a surprise if you get to heaven. You will find a whole bunch of Protestants there who worshipped in Spirit and in truth here on earth. You may as well get used to it because we will be there for eternity. We are as much a part of Christs Church as believing Catholics are.


41 posted on 08/04/2012 7:38:16 AM PDT by Mom MD (T he country needs Obamacare like Nancy Pelosi needs a Halloween mask)
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To: Caulkhead

By the way, just type in “no-go zones” in Google. Nothing else, just that term.

This is your first response:

http://technorati.com/politics/article/no-go-zones-for-non-muslims/

Of course you’re more than welcome to discount it, but you asked for a link, and this is a link. I don’t make this stuff up.

But maybe answer one question: Why is it so important to you that people not take the problem seriously?


42 posted on 08/04/2012 7:43:18 AM PDT by BobL (Cruz'd to Victory - July 31, 2012)
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To: BobL

“By the way, just type in “no-go zones” in Google. Nothing else, just that term.”

OK, just did that. Only two of the 11 results had anything to do with sharia and neither showed a sign on a road stopping me entering as you claim.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=no-go+zones&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

“But maybe answer one question: Why is it so important to you that people not take the problem seriously?”

It’s very important we take the muslim issue seriously, but we won’t do that by reading half-arsed, ill-informed guesswork like your original post which points the finger at the UK whilst ignoring the fact that US courts are forcing US citizens to accept sharia when we in the UK are not. The fact that you are a secular country with a muslim president elected by your near non-white majority population shows who is in the most immediate danger, and it isn’t the UK depite what your MSM stores tell you.

If you want to google, try “dearborn sharia no go zone”


43 posted on 08/04/2012 9:25:25 AM PDT by Caulkhead
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To: Caulkhead

This was the link that I saw...

http://technorati.com/politics/article/no-go-zones-for-non-muslims/";

Maybe no “do not enter” signs - but this if the areas are considered unsafe for non-Muslims - what’s the difference?

I just don’t know why you’re so defensive about your country...but you’re not the first Brit on this that way...and you still haven’t said anything to dispute my claim that Muslim women effectively have NO CHOICE, in those neighborhoods, when the guy wants to go a Sharia Court. That applies both US and UK, and anywhere else those courts exist.

But one more question - at what point would you feel threatened - and why wait that long?


44 posted on 08/04/2012 10:31:55 AM PDT by BobL (Cruz'd to Victory - July 31, 2012)
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To: Mom MD
Boy will you have a surprise if you get to heaven. You will find a whole bunch of Protestants there who worshipped in Spirit and in truth here on earth. You may as well get used to it because we will be there for eternity. We are as much a part of Christs Church as believing Catholics are.

why would a person of faith, knowing the history of Christianity, not belong to the Catholic church??? I have no doubt that there are protestants in heaven, but they are there because they were either ignorant of the true Christian church or they somehow overcame Christ's admonition to directly follow Him. You can't possibly be equal with those who follow Catholicism because Christ did not found several thousand "denominations" He founded Catholicism and promised that He would be with her until the end of time....I'll go with that promise!!!!

45 posted on 08/04/2012 3:12:55 PM PDT by terycarl (lurking, but well informed)
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