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EU: Russian Bear stops Finland leaving euro
The Telegraph ^ | 8/19/2012 | Ambrose Evans-Pritchard

Posted on 08/19/2012 12:26:26 PM PDT by bruinbirdman

German eurosceptics quietly hope that Finland will become the first creditor state to storm out of monetary union in disgust, opening the way for others to break free.

Once Finns break the taboo, it would be easier for Germany to extricate itself from an escalating national disaster without inviting opprobrium from across Europe, or so goes the argument.

“We can’t start this off, but the Finns can,” said Hans-Olaf Henkel, former head of Germany’s industry federation.

Berlin’s policy elites are constrained by their honourable - if misdirected - feelings of moral duty towards the euro. They cannot bring themselves to plunge the dagger.

Finnish exit - or FIXIT, as they say in Helsinki - is certainly a plausible hypothesis. The Finns have no ensnaring duty to a mystical “Europe“. They did not join the EU until 1995, and only then with widespread dissent.

“Sweden and Denmark both held referendums on the euro, and both said no. We were never allowed to vote,” said Timo Soini, leader of the True Finns party. That was a mistake. The nation is not locked into ritual assent.

Finns obeyed the rules of EU membership with scrupulous care, while others gamed the system. “Our Lutheran morality, if you will,” said foreign minister Erkki Tuomioja.

They alone faced the fiscal implications of EMU for small economies out of cyclical alignment. “In Finland, a handshake is final. We thought we had a deal that every country would look after its own finances, only to find the deal was broken,” said Alexander Stubb, Finland’s Europe minister.

Yet looming over everything else is Vladimir Putin’s Russia, a “19th Century power” - to borrow Robert Kagan’s term - that has overturned the post-war borders of Europe once already by attacking Georgia and annexing South Ossetia

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: finland

1 posted on 08/19/2012 12:26:32 PM PDT by bruinbirdman
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To: bruinbirdman
We thought we had a deal that every country would look after its own finances, only to find the deal was broken

I still do not understand how you can 'negotiate' a common currency amongst nations.

2 posted on 08/19/2012 12:32:30 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive

The biggest problem is not the currency itself (aside from it not having a treasury) but things like the Stability and Growth Pact, and the matter of the interest rate regime being bad for a great swath of the nations in the eurozone (especially the Club Med members).


3 posted on 08/19/2012 12:35:07 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: bruinbirdman

I had a college professor constantly lecture of how great the European Union is and America needed to do something similar with Canada and (of course) Mexico to be able to compete. He wasn’t the worst in the world, but if there was any subject that I knew was any liberal pontification of any professor that was going to come around and bite back it was this one. No idea what he thinks now, probably would argue these are temporary setbacks and/or “it’s all Bush’s fault” with the economy going bad around the world and it all goes back to him.


4 posted on 08/19/2012 12:38:39 PM PDT by nerdwithagun (I'd rather go gun to gun then knife to knife.)
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To: bruinbirdman

Great. So because of a new Molotov-Ribbentrop agreement of sorts, Finland can’t leave the eurozone.


5 posted on 08/19/2012 12:40:15 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: nerdwithagun

The thing about the European Union that the bankers did all agree on...was having just one currency. There was a huge mess that went on daily...with various issues and problems with conversion from D-marks to Francs, etc. Every single banker will tell you this EU thing was a good deal. From an investment point of view, or sales point of view....it doubles up the problems (I readily agree).

If you go to a German electronics shop today....they have the better German or French made washers...but they also have the cheaper washers made in Spain. So you can save a quarter of your money and buy Spanish-made washers. The question is....are they are superior quality? The answer is typically...no.


6 posted on 08/19/2012 12:46:38 PM PDT by pepsionice
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To: nerdwithagun
I wonder if your professor was fond of the EU because their central government in Brussels was patterned after the USSR’s government . . . ? or was it for the many other reasons that make it an abomination?

It is indeed funny that liberal professors want to castigate the USA for alleged “imperialism” on one hand but want to emulate the EU and its imperialism in North America on the other (and Jose Manuel Barroso called the EU an empire back in 2007).
7 posted on 08/19/2012 12:54:42 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: bruinbirdman

Unless I’m mistaken Finland needn’t leave the European Union if she drops the Euro and I haven’t read *anything* suggesting that there’s *any* chance of her leaving the EU.Assuming that I’m correct on both points it’s hard to imagine the USSR attacking *any* EU country.Attacking Georgia and attacking an EU member state are two *entirely* different things IMO.Such an act would bring an enormous firestorm from Europe,the US and elsewhere.It would create a unity among Western democratic nations the likes of which haven’t been seen since WWII.


8 posted on 08/19/2012 12:57:38 PM PDT by Gay State Conservative (The Word Is Out,Harry Reid's Into Child Porn.Release All Your Photos,Harry!)
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To: Gay State Conservative

Too much over there already echoes pre-WWII years.


9 posted on 08/19/2012 1:03:09 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: bruinbirdman

Note to finland:

Get out of the eurozone, join NATO, and if you MUST be a member of an economic union, create a new one (separate from the EU) with norway, sweden, greenland, iceland, estonia, lithuania, and latvia. Maybe denmark if they talk real nice.


10 posted on 08/19/2012 1:13:42 PM PDT by mamelukesabre
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To: Gay State Conservative
iirc, it dint turn out too well the last time they tried it...
11 posted on 08/19/2012 1:21:40 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Olog-hai
"The biggest problem is not the currency itself (aside from it not having a treasury) but things like . . ."

The biggest problem is the socialist model. Nuf said.

yitbos

12 posted on 08/19/2012 1:32:23 PM PDT by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: Chode

The White Death just dares them to try it again.
13 posted on 08/19/2012 1:43:24 PM PDT by Stonewall Jackson ("I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.")
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To: Stonewall Jackson

Finland managed to inflict in between 230,000 and 270,000 fatalities plus 200,000-300,000 injuries on Russia,

For anyone who hasn’t read about the devastation visited on Russia’s army in the 1939 Finnish Winter War, here is great synopsis of how tough and smart the Finns are:

http://www.historyhouse.com/in_history/winter_war/


14 posted on 08/19/2012 2:12:54 PM PDT by sergeantdave
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To: bruinbirdman

Nuff said indeed. But where socialists are strong, they won’t clam up, i.e. until their system collapses in on itself. And since the (liberal-ruled) USA has been dumb enough to support socialist systems since the end of the last war against socialism, it will itself collapse as a consequence.


15 posted on 08/19/2012 2:15:16 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: sergeantdave
The Finnish Air Force kicked Soviet and Nazi tail. Using primarily surplus or captured fighters, they put quite a hurting on all who opposed them.

During the Winter War, they had a kill ratio of 218-47 (plus 30 captured after being forced to land). During the Continuation War (1941-44) they had a ratio of 1,621-210. Then, following the end of hostilities with the Soviet Union, the Finns fought the Nazis in the Lapland War, where they scored the only 3 aerial victories of this conflict.

Flying the obsolete US F2 Brewster B239 "Buffalo", the Finns had a 459-15 kill ratio!

16 posted on 08/19/2012 2:51:40 PM PDT by Stonewall Jackson ("I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.")
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To: Stonewall Jackson
yup...

Winter War
Part of World War II
A group of soldiers in snowsuits manning a heavy machine gun
A Finnish machine gun crew during the Winter War
Date 30 November 1939 – 13 March 1940
(3 months, 1 week and 5 days)
Location Eastern Finland
Result Interim Peace
Territorial
changes
Cession of the Gulf of Finland islands, Karelian Isthmus, Ladoga Karelia, Salla, and Rybachy Peninsula, and rental of Hanko to the Soviet Union
Belligerents
 Finland
Swedish Volunteers
 Soviet Union
Flag of Finland.svg Finnish Democratic Republic (A puppet state. Recognized only by USSR.)
Commanders and leaders
Finland Carl Gustaf Emil Mannerheim Soviet Union Joseph Stalin
Soviet Union Kirill Meretskov
Soviet Union Kliment Voroshilov
Soviet Union Semyon Timoshenko[F 1]
Finland Otto Wille Kuusinen
Strength
337,000–346,500 men[F 2][5][6]
32 tanks[F 3][7]
114 aircraft[F 4][8]
425,640–760,578 men[F 5]
998,100 men (overall)

2,514–6,541 tanks[F 6][13]
3,880 aircraft

Casualties and losses
25,904 dead or missing [F 7][14]
43,557 wounded[15]
1,000 captured[F 8][16]
957 civilians in air raids[14]
20–30 tanks
62 aircraft[17]
70,000 total casualties
126,875 dead or missing[18][F 9]
188,671 wounded, injured or burned[18]
5,572 captured[20]
3,543 tanks[F 10][21][22][23]
261–515 aircraft[F 11][23][24]
323,000 total casualties

17 posted on 08/19/2012 3:06:07 PM PDT by Chode (American Hedonist - *DTOM* -ww- NO Pity for the LAZY)
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To: Stonewall Jackson

Finns were allied with Nazis. Also when they attacked USSR in 1941 they were stopped by Soviets just like they stopped Soviets a year before that.
Soviets withstood joint Finn-Nazi offensive and won the war...


18 posted on 08/19/2012 3:27:11 PM PDT by kronos77 (Kosovo is Serbian Jerusalem. No Serbia without Kosovo.)
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To: Gay State Conservative

If Finland leaves the Eurozone, other countries will follow. Germany is a stretch, but the Netherlands is growing tired of having to pick up the slack for Italy and Spain. I think the argument is that if Finland leaves the Eurozone, it will be followed shortly by the entire collapse of the European Union itself. The plan here is to insulate the richer countries from the ensuing chaos before it gets too deep for them to escape when the whole thing finally does come crashing down. It is questionable whether this can be done.

Also, don’t count on a big “allies” response to any aggression from Russia. The EU has been effectively neutered thanks to the crisis and remember, Oblamo is “flexible”. However, the Russians learned their lesson a long time ago when it comes to invading Finland. I’d be more inclined to see the re-acquiring of Belarus first, the Baltics to follow. Meanwhile, the Balkans will be rocked by violence. With the UN reeling from the breakup of the EU, Serbia will get the chance for some payback on Albania and Kosovo. I also wouldn’t be surprised if Hungary makes a move on Transylvania which they still maintain is their territory. People often forget the sharp hatchets that were buried when globalism took hold. When it falls, we’re back to the familiar “jigsaw puzzle on fire” of Europe that we know and love :)


19 posted on 08/19/2012 3:52:14 PM PDT by Radiarm
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To: FatherofFive

Usually when we read of EU countries balking at the state of the monetary union is comes from three members - Germany, Austria and Finland.

All allies during WWII until the Finns cut loose when Germany was in full retreat on the Eastern front and the Soviets made a renewed push into Finland in 1944, forcing it to give up the territory gained in 1940.

These three are still alligned - two by language and culture and two by a common distrust of Moscow.

The Lisbon treaty does not allow for a member country to leave the EMU and stay in the broader EU (old EC). Finland is not strong enough to survive outside of the EC so it’s not going anywhere unless the Germans say when and how.


20 posted on 08/19/2012 4:02:36 PM PDT by Reagan Disciple (Peace through Strength)
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To: kronos77
While the Finns did side with Germany during WW2, their primary objective was to regain the territory taken by the Soviets during the Winter War of 1939-40.

After a 2 1/2 year stalemate (Winter 1941-Spring 1944), the Soviets went on the offensive and recaptured much of their lost territory (which was actually the Finland had lost to them a few years earlier) before being halted by a pair of decisive Finnish victories that allowed them to sue for peace on somewhat favorable terms.

Hitler refused to accept their withdraw from the war, so the Finns spent the last eight months of the war forcing the German 20th Mountain Army out of extreme northern Finland (Lapland).

I'm not saying that the Finns were completely blameless for their actions in WW2, but they certainly had legitimate grievances with the Soviet Union. Since the Finns did effectively switch sides (and the American and British governments were sympathetic to their grievances with the Soviets), they were given little more than a slap on the wrist by the terms of the Moscow Armistice. They had to formally accept the loss of the territory they'd ceded to the Soviets in 1940, pay $300,000,000 in reparations to the Soviets (later reduced to $226,500,000), legalize the Communist Party of Finland, ban all fascist political parties, and accept set limits on their military.

21 posted on 08/19/2012 4:06:46 PM PDT by Stonewall Jackson ("I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.")
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To: FatherofFive
"I still do not understand how you can 'negotiate' a common currency amongst nations."

You dangle the bait of currency Manipulation to those in power wherein the can foll around with rates and such and line their pockets. Like we allow the Banksters here in the USA to do.

22 posted on 08/19/2012 4:09:49 PM PDT by Mad Dawgg (If you're going to deny my 1st Amendment rights then I must proceed to the 2nd one...)
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To: bruinbirdman
Finns obeyed the rules of EU membership with scrupulous care, while others gamed the system. “Our Lutheran morality, if you will,” said foreign minister Erkki Tuomioja.

The beer drinking nations of Northern Europe seem to be solvent, and the wine drinking nations of Southern Europe are insolvent. I propose that that Northern Europe adopt the "Beero" and Southern Europe adopt the "Bachma." Pun intended for any Lao speakers.
23 posted on 08/19/2012 5:48:00 PM PDT by fallujah-nuker
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To: Olog-hai
Granted.

In fact the euro itself will survive in one way or another. The EuroZone is another story, eh?

They are all in trouble save Finland. The banks/treasuries are insolvent.

EU fiscal transparancy is virtually non-existant. Economic data are state secrets.

Grease was audited by a troika of EU experts. We have heard no economic or financial results of note.

Three EZ bank solvency tests have produced no comprehensive public data, just, "Everything is fine."

They're all broke and it will get worse.

yitbos

24 posted on 08/19/2012 7:39:29 PM PDT by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: Radiarm
". . . . the Netherlands is growing tired of having to pick up the slack for Italy and Spain."

The Dutch have caught the EUrotopian Contagion, also. Dutch government falls in skirmish over austerity measures

"The collapse of Prime Minister Mark Rutte’s governing coalition came after the populist Freedom Party, led by euro-opponent Geert Wilders, abandoned negotiations over ways to meet deficit targets."

yitbos

25 posted on 08/19/2012 7:55:48 PM PDT by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: bruinbirdman

The last time the Russians tried to push the Finns around it didn’t end well for the Russians.


26 posted on 08/19/2012 7:58:07 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is it is the only answer.)
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To: bruinbirdman

When they say “beneficial crisis” over in Europe, they certainly emphasize the “crisis” part. The people at the top have already figured out how they’re going to benefit. Doesn’t mean they stop the pain when the little people want it to stop, remember.


27 posted on 08/19/2012 8:07:33 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
"The people at the top have already figured out how they’re going to benefit. "

When the people at the bottom vote in socialists to raid the treasury and borrow to insolvency, they voted, somewhere down the line, to pay for it one way or another.

The guys at the top will always protect their assets.

yitbos

28 posted on 08/19/2012 8:43:54 PM PDT by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: bruinbirdman

Nope; they were even denied that vote. The decision-makers in the EU at the “supranational” level are all appointed.


29 posted on 08/19/2012 10:11:44 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai
"The decision-makers in the EU at the “supranational” level are all appointed."

They all live in republics. They elect officials to make those decisions.

yitbos

30 posted on 08/19/2012 10:19:20 PM PDT by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: bruinbirdman

They did that in the USSR too, but those elected officials instead appointed unaccountable politicians to make decisions that the people don’t want. Like the EU does today.


31 posted on 08/19/2012 10:34:57 PM PDT by Olog-hai
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To: kronos77
The Soviet EVIL EMPIRE invaded Finland in 1939, when the SOVIETS were allied with the Nazis. The Nazis gave Finland to the Soviet Union with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Heroic Finland defended itself against the Hitler's Soviet allies and saved their nation from communist slavery.

Unlike the Serbs.

32 posted on 08/20/2012 6:50:20 PM PDT by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Stonewall Jackson

Thanks for the air combat accounting, Stonewall. That’s a part of the Finn combat that I wasn’t aware of.


33 posted on 08/22/2012 4:41:58 PM PDT by sergeantdave
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To: sergeantdave
No problem. I first became interested in the Winter War and the Continuation War back around 1995, but there isn't much information out there.

As an interesting bit of trivia, from 1918-1945 the Finnish Air Force's symbol was a blue swastika.

34 posted on 08/22/2012 5:40:48 PM PDT by Stonewall Jackson ("I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.")
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To: Stonewall Jackson

I first heard of the Winter War when I lived on Michigan’s Upper Peninsula back in the 1970s. I’d hang around the American Legion or VFW and some of the guys talked about their grandfathers, fathers or uncles fighting in the Winter War.

The stories they related were incredible.I forgot the name of that Finn sniper, but it’s estimated he had somewhere around 600 kills using an iron sight Mosin-Nagant. Wow!


35 posted on 08/22/2012 7:09:01 PM PDT by sergeantdave
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To: sergeantdave

His name was Simo Hayha, aka The White Death. I put his picture in post #13. He had 515 confirmed kills with his sniper rifle and another 200 with a submachine gun when he shot up a Soviet base.


36 posted on 08/22/2012 7:33:15 PM PDT by Stonewall Jackson ("I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.")
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To: Stonewall Jackson

Lauri Allan Törni aka Larry Thorne.



More on Larry Thorne

37 posted on 08/23/2012 10:31:56 AM PDT by Viiksitimali
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To: Viiksitimali
There is a lot of speculation that W.E.B. Griffin based one of the characters in his Brotherhood of War series, Karl-Heinz Wagner, on Larry Thorne.

Wagner was a lieutenant in the East German Army who made it across the border with his little sister and promptly joined the US Army as a private. He went through Special Forces training, became a first lieutenant, served in Germany and Africa before going to Vietnam, where he served with honor until a Viet-Cong grenade left him paralyzed.

If you read a detailed history of Larry Thorne, such as Michael Cleverley's The Times and Life of Larry Thorne, there are a great many similarities between Thorne and Wagner.

38 posted on 08/23/2012 1:01:29 PM PDT by Stonewall Jackson ("I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.")
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To: Viiksitimali
"Nobody respects a country with a poor army, but everybody respects a country with a good army. I raise my toast to the Finnish army." - Josef Stalin, 1948
39 posted on 08/23/2012 1:06:58 PM PDT by Stonewall Jackson ("I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy.")
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