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How To Make the GOP Eat Itself Alive
Free Republic Original Content | September 1, 2012 | By Laz A. Mataz

Posted on 09/01/2012 1:16:40 PM PDT by Lazamataz

Recently, the GOP passed some Presidential primary and delegate rules changes, in a very shady manner, that enraged conservatives. This rule will lessen the impact of delegates, and soften the voice of conservatives and Tea Party members. I was one of those who were enraged. In fact, I was at the front of the parade.

However, in life and especially in politics, not all is as it seems. One of Mitt Romney's closest advisors, a man by the name of James Bopp Jr., led the charge to prevent the rules from being this drastically changed. In a letter he wrote, he states:

This is the biggest power grab in the history of the Republican Party because it shifts the power to select delegates from the state party to the candidate. And it would make the Republican Party a top down, not bottom up party.

It would also hurt state parties because they use delegate selection as a way to honor party volunteers and party contributors. A Presidential candidate will have his own agenda for delegate selection. As a result, this always is a threat to party regulars who make up most of our delegates. But it is also a threat to both moderates and conservative who could be purged, depending on who is the Republican Presidential nominee.

This proposal is an over reaction to the problems in a few states where Ron Paul delegates threaten to not support the winning Presidential candidate. I agree that they should honor that pledge, but that can be fix by a few tweaks in a few state laws. Massachusetts handled this successfully by requiring an affidavit promising to vote for the candidate, Mitt Romney, who carried the state. But the Rules change here is overkill -- killing a fly with a sledgehammer.

After the Rules change imbroglio, I decided not to dash off a furious editorial, but instead to let time reveal all the workings, and to allow a little cooling off period. I'm glad I did. It's not as simple as it seemed.

Are there some scoundrels in the Republican party? Absolutely. John Boehner, who ruled against the floor vote in an entirely arbitrary way, springs to mind. One cannot help but think that Karl Rove clapped his chubby little hands together upon the Rules Change, as well. John Sununu, another villain in this power grab, may have been instrumental in removing key Florida delegates from the Rules Commitee. Perhaps the largest and most damning villain in the fiasco is Ben Ginsberg, who is Romney's chief legal advisor. It appears he was interested in even more power-consolidating Rules Changes.

There will be more revelations in the days ahead. It has been leaked to me that there will be more to follow, and that it may well show that Romney's camp initially wanted the Rules Change -- to undercut the Ron Paul brigades -- but when some of the party Establishment took the ball and ran too far downfield, that many in the Romney camp backed off of support. Of course, at that time, it was too late. The blue-blood establishment hacks had grabbed the concepts, racheted them up, and ran as hard as they could for the goal line.

So, we are starting to see the first glimmers of discontent in the Romney camp over the Rules Changes. If more follows, the changes may well be addressed -- with a little push from us, the Dreaded Grassroots.

The fact remains, though, that the Rules, having been changed, are horrific for the grassroots conservative and Tea Party members.

Romney, if he wants our support, should lead.

He should get in front of some conservative groups and let us know that the Rules will be changed again to allow our voices to be heard. We do understand if Romney himself cannot do it, since it is an old chestnut -- run to the right for nomination, run to the left for election -- but a high level surrogate would help us believe his intent.

The jury is still out. Is Romney willing to forego conservative support? We shall see. The blowback from a Romney rejection would be tragic for his election efforts.


TOPICS: FReeper Editorial; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: convention; delegates; gop; jamesbopp; rnc; romney; ronpaul; rule12; rulechanges; vanity
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To: Marcella

Maybe Mitt is a better guy than we thought.
We will see soon enough after he’s sworn in.


151 posted on 09/01/2012 4:08:46 PM PDT by Java4Jay (The evils of government are directly proportional to the tolerance of the people.)
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To: Norm Lenhart

“...see reality for what it is and not what you want it to be.”

People hang on to “normal” when it is not “normal” anymore. I am a realist. I taught election law and I know what happened when party rules were broken and how they were broken.

“Normal” is not “normal” anymore - I see it as it is, others will see it later (plus you see it now).


152 posted on 09/01/2012 4:11:01 PM PDT by Marcella (Conservatism is dead. PREPARE)
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To: Marcella

Marcella, I do NOT underestimate the damage and the problematic way these Rules were changed. I hope I made that clear in my original article. It is also why the only way I will accept that Mitt and his closest advisors are not on board, is if they change to something that will NOT exclude conservative and Tea Party voices. Maybe it can’t happen in time, but (and this would not convince me, but it would be the first positive indicator) at LEAST decry these changes.


153 posted on 09/01/2012 4:14:16 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Communist Party = Democrats. Socialist Party = Republicans. WE NEED A CAPITALIST FREEDOM PARTY!)
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To: Lazamataz
Wow. This poll is all bunkum, then

Must be. Romney is the nominee.

What is Lulz?

154 posted on 09/01/2012 4:14:57 PM PDT by EnquiringMind
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To: Lazamataz
You are against people getting all the facts and making up their own mind?

I think the facts were pretty apparent when it was all going down.

This is all just damage control, and you're buying it hook, line, and sinker.

155 posted on 09/01/2012 4:16:34 PM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: EnquiringMind
Must be. Romney is the nominee.

Well then. Most of Germany must have been genocidal freaks back in the 1930'a and 1940's.

Never confuse the will of the people, with the will of the Party.

In case you believe your own hype: The poll is solid. The most significant ideological demographic is conservatism.

And Lulz is when a person is so doubled-over with laughter, lol won't cut it.

(I still don't get why you are here? This ain't an (R) site, it's a conservative site.)

156 posted on 09/01/2012 4:19:08 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Communist Party = Democrats. Socialist Party = Republicans. WE NEED A CAPITALIST FREEDOM PARTY!)
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To: Lazamataz
I was vastly surprised when I saw Sununu was the chairman of the rules committee - WHY? Normally, that is a dull job and nothing happens and no one cares to be that chairman. And WHY was Romney's lawyer there? They were there to change those rules and deliver the Party to Romney on a platter.
157 posted on 09/01/2012 4:20:11 PM PDT by Marcella (Conservatism is dead. PREPARE)
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To: Java4Jay
Maybe Mitt is a better guy than we thought.

Does a leopard change its spots?

158 posted on 09/01/2012 4:22:00 PM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: Timber Rattler
I don't think you'll find me buying it, anywhere in the article or subsequent comments.

I do think you'll find me looking at all the facts, calling for further action by Mitt to .... um... Mittigate the problem (lol), and further investigation to see who's on 'our side' and who --being on the side of tyrannical rule of the Republicans -- must be ejected from the party leadership.

159 posted on 09/01/2012 4:22:42 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Communist Party = Democrats. Socialist Party = Republicans. WE NEED A CAPITALIST FREEDOM PARTY!)
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To: Lazamataz

I am here because I didn’t get kicked off yet. Lulz!!!

Wanna make that happen?


160 posted on 09/01/2012 4:23:08 PM PDT by EnquiringMind
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To: Marcella

Sununu is a creep. No good comes from his presence. He must go. Boehner, too. I wasn’t sure about Boehner, but I am now.


161 posted on 09/01/2012 4:23:47 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Communist Party = Democrats. Socialist Party = Republicans. WE NEED A CAPITALIST FREEDOM PARTY!)
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To: Lazamataz
I disagree with most of the opposition to these changes. Most of the opposition to these changes this time is coming from people who wanted to create a floor fight at the convention. The opposition seems to come from three groups. They are Ron Paul people who genuinely want a libertarian shift in the GOP, Ron Paul people who are really leftists supporting Paul to try to disrupt the GOP, and the foolish end of the conservative movement that wanted to remove Mitt Romney in favor of someone who failed to win the primaries. These people wanted to manipulate the system in order to create three days of chaos in Tampa. The outcome would either be a candidate of their choosing or a weakened Mitt Romney who would lose to Obama and allow them to continue their civil war fantasies. Having their schemes frustrated has left them angry about the rules, but that attitude is short sighted.

The rules that stopped them from derailing Mitt Romney this year could protect them in the future. If state parties quietly change their rules in the future to put more delegate choice under the power of the party hierarchy and less in the hands of voters, we could have a situation where a "Tea Party candidate" wins a state but is represented at the convention by "establishment" delegates chosen by the "establishment." The new rules would give the candidate some power to veto delegates who were clearly being sent to the convention as patsies for the state party hierarchy.

The whole controversy seems to be one more example of people trying to derail Mitt Romney's campaign.

162 posted on 09/01/2012 4:25:51 PM PDT by WFTR (Liberty isn't for cowards)
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To: EnquiringMind
Nah. If you can play nice, I have no objection t'ya.


163 posted on 09/01/2012 4:26:25 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Communist Party = Democrats. Socialist Party = Republicans. WE NEED A CAPITALIST FREEDOM PARTY!)
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To: Lazamataz
The jury is still out.

Not for me. The scumbags are guilty. Of course, Romney was never going to get my vote anyway.
Whatever... Delegates smellegates. The scumbag GOPe can't stop the tea party movement from electing everybody from school boards to congresscritters and senators.

164 posted on 09/01/2012 4:27:43 PM PDT by Lancey Howard
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To: Timber Rattler

I’m an optimist.


165 posted on 09/01/2012 4:28:08 PM PDT by Java4Jay (The evils of government are directly proportional to the tolerance of the people.)
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To: WFTR

Can you expound on exactly what the states can do to minimize the effects of these Rule Changes?


166 posted on 09/01/2012 4:28:08 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Communist Party = Democrats. Socialist Party = Republicans. WE NEED A CAPITALIST FREEDOM PARTY!)
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To: WFTR
The rules that stopped them from derailing Mitt Romney this year could protect them in the future.

You actually expect people to believe that nonsense?

167 posted on 09/01/2012 4:29:18 PM PDT by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: Lazamataz

Do you know how the chairmen of the committees are chosen?
It is the job of the national chairman to choose those chairmen. I have no doubt at all that Sununu went to him and asked for that job and got it. The national chairman had to know what was going to happen and he helped them do it.


168 posted on 09/01/2012 4:29:38 PM PDT by Marcella (Conservatism is dead. PREPARE)
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To: Java4Jay
The optimist sees the glass half-full. The pessimist sees the glass half-empty.

I'm an engineer. I see the glass as being designed twice as big as it should have been.

169 posted on 09/01/2012 4:29:48 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Communist Party = Democrats. Socialist Party = Republicans. WE NEED A CAPITALIST FREEDOM PARTY!)
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To: Marcella

Bad pick, no doubt. The national RNC chairman is at odds with the Vice chairman on this.


170 posted on 09/01/2012 4:31:00 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Communist Party = Democrats. Socialist Party = Republicans. WE NEED A CAPITALIST FREEDOM PARTY!)
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To: Marcella

I equate it to the 5 stages of Grief. Many are still stuck on ‘Bargaining”.

They want to believe the GOP is something it is not. They want to believe that Reagan was not a fluke. They want to believe he was the heart and soul of Republicanism. But he WAS a fluke. He was an aberration.

They fought him before the convention, in the convention and after the convention. And they used his words and deeds to craft an image of themselves that they rejected when he was in office.

Smart politics to be sure, but wholly dishonest.

The truth is that JonBon and Mitch, along with Little Lord Lindsay ARE the GOP. If they wanted to stop Obama they had the power to do it since 2010. Period. Bohner holds the power of the purse. Period. Mitch and Lindsay have been quiet as churchmice everytime Harry goes wild about socialism and Nancy spouts straight Marxism.

That’s reality. That’s truth. This ‘feet to the fire’ crap is a fantasy. The base has screamed long and loud since 10 and to what end? If they can’t fight the enemy, they certainly will not fight their leadership. And if they are willing to trade our support for mallable indys, well...

Fox wanted to believe too.


171 posted on 09/01/2012 4:31:28 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: WFTR

The issue is whether local and state Republican Parties designate a national Republican Party, or a National Republican Party designates local and state administrators. It’s not more complicated.


172 posted on 09/01/2012 4:36:00 PM PDT by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Norm Lenhart

Time will reveal more. I have no clue as to the outcome. I can barely project tomorrow’s breakfast.


173 posted on 09/01/2012 4:36:46 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Communist Party = Democrats. Socialist Party = Republicans. WE NEED A CAPITALIST FREEDOM PARTY!)
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To: Lazamataz

Little hope for BBQd RINO on the menu I’m afraid. But lots of pork in our future ;)


174 posted on 09/01/2012 4:39:47 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: Lazamataz

“bad pick, no doubt.”

It was not a bad pick, it was PLANNED for a definite purpose between Sununu and the lawyer and the national chairman.

I won’t bother you anymore on this thread about this but I think, if Romney wins, you will see the national committee give Romney the rule he wants so he can choose the delegates himself in 2016 and you can forget about seeing Tea Pary delegates and real conservative delegates. You will see liberal Romney delegates. He will be the dictator of the Republican Party.


175 posted on 09/01/2012 4:42:47 PM PDT by Marcella (Conservatism is dead. PREPARE)
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To: Marcella
I think, if Romney wins, you will see the national committee give Romney the rule he wants so he can choose the delegates himself in 2016 and you can forget about seeing Tea Pary delegates and real conservative delegates. You will see liberal Romney delegates. He will be the dictator of the Republican Party.

We may. And if we do, and if he wins, they will STILL lose in the long stretch of time. I believe as this poster does, when he said:

I still think this is something of a Republican mirror image to what happened to the Democrats in 1968 and 1972. In ‘68 the up and coming radical left tried to seize the party but were slapped down by their old guard. But in the next four years the radicals came back in spades and took over the party, booting out the old guard for good. And the radicals have controlled the party ever since.

The old guard just made conservatives aware of the need to work up the ranks and take over the party. It won't come in 4 years. But in 8? Maybe.

176 posted on 09/01/2012 4:47:36 PM PDT by Lazamataz (Communist Party = Democrats. Socialist Party = Republicans. WE NEED A CAPITALIST FREEDOM PARTY!)
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To: EternalVigilance

This is where I think you actually stray from the complete all-out fight to save every possible unborn child.

I know you have an argument you think is pure, but when purity doesn’t save as many lives as political expediency could, we should push both, not attack those who have found a way to save a life.

Your opposition would be like being against protesting abortion clinics, under the argument that since abortion should be illegal, simply blocking women from getting INTO the clinics is a half-assed effort when we should be closing them.

Whereas in fact picketers SAVE LIVES, even if they don’t shut down the clinics. And crisis pregnancy centers save lives, even though they aren’t directly involved in stopping the abortion mills. And yes, politicians pushing things like the partial birth abortion ban, and the concept of pain-capable unborn as a way to regulate and discourage abortions, is a good thing. It will save more lives than simply following your plan.

Of course, electing Romney will save more unborn lives than voting for you in the election. Not pure, but saving more lives.


177 posted on 09/01/2012 4:55:28 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Lazamataz

In addition to replacing the Old guard pols, you must also replace their sycophants that constitute party infrastructure and rebuild it ground up.

Is it not wiser to build a new house rather than to attempt replacing the rotted framework of an old one?

All the ‘advisors’ secretaries, aides...all of it. All of that has to go. So why cling to it? What benefit is attaching one’s ambitions to a foundation filled with baggage and the rest?

To me it makes more sense to start fresh with trystworthy people than try to engage in a snipe hunt trying to rid yourself of all the problems.


178 posted on 09/01/2012 5:00:42 PM PDT by Norm Lenhart
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To: CharlesWayneCT

You don’t save lives by giving up every principle of God-given unalienable right, every stated purpose of the Constitution, and its explicit, imperative requirement that every innocent person’s life be equally protected under the law, any more than you could win a war by walking onto a battlefield buck naked and weaponless.

Either all are protected equally, or none are secure in their rights.

Romney, at best, represents the abortion on demand status quo. That is crystal clear.


179 posted on 09/01/2012 5:11:15 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (The saving of America starts the day Christians stop supporting what they say they hate.)
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To: Christie at the beach

You are 100% correct. It is too hard to trust Romney and the GOP after all the evidence has been put in front and he and the GOP have not done what we thought they would in the past. So why would they change? Tea party elected politicans are not enough to stop the GOPe at this moment.


180 posted on 09/01/2012 5:45:00 PM PDT by Mozilla (Constitution Party)
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To: SE Mom; Lazamataz

Thanks for the ping SE and good write up Laz! If you were leading the parade Laz ,against this stuff, I was certainly bringing up the rear....lol. This sneaky and lowdown stuff really enraged me. I called the headquarters and the Romeny Campaign. The RNC has been calling my house for two days and I haven’t picked up the phone.....lol. Boehner has got to go. I have tried to be patient with that man but enough is enough. The bad thing is Eric Cantor is being groomed to take his place and he has become part of the establishment too.

Hope we have a lot of tea party victories this fall so we can flush the old guard.


181 posted on 09/01/2012 5:49:17 PM PDT by penelopesire (TIME FOR A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR!)
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To: EternalVigilance

Sorry, but I strongly disagree with you on that point. If I lived in Germany in WW2, I would hope I could have smuggled one Jew out of harm’s way — even though your position would suggest I should not waste my time and instead should be trying to change the system.

We need to change the system. We also need to take every opportunity within the system to save every life we can.

If we can save 10,000 lives by passing bills that provide some protection based on pain-awareness, I will strongly support those bills, not attack them.

The partial-birth-abortion ban saves lives. Those babies, when they grow up, will be glad that people didn’t agree with your “purity at all costs” mentality.


182 posted on 09/01/2012 6:00:49 PM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: Marcella
I think, if Romney wins, you will see the national committee give Romney the rule he wants so he can choose the delegates himself in 2016 and you can forget about seeing Tea Pary delegates and real conservative delegates. You will see liberal Romney delegates. He will be the dictator of the Republican Party.

This is what I've been saying to people who claim 'we'll hold Romney's feet to the fire' or 'we'll primary Romney from the right in 2016'. I'm very glad to see it stated so eloquently by someone more learned than myself. Well done.

183 posted on 09/01/2012 6:05:24 PM PDT by Colonel_Flagg (Conservatism is not a matter of convenience.)
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To: Lazamataz

Damn....


184 posted on 09/01/2012 6:42:32 PM PDT by Squantos
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy

Excellent points....thanks.


185 posted on 09/01/2012 6:47:22 PM PDT by Squantos
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To: Colonel_Flagg
Thanks for the compliment. I spend years upon years in college/university, so I know a lot of useless information.

However, I did instruct in election law to Republican County Chairmen and election judges and clerks and I know the rules the national party must use in the national convention. My mouth actually dropped open what I saw on screen what was happening to destroy the Party by new rules and the votes were illegal by party rules but the national chairman and Boehner were the ones doing it in front of the whole convention body.

It takes pure gall and dishonesty to do that and they didn't care. They had Sununu right there with them doing that illegal work. Delegates asked for a role call vote and party rules say that must be done if requested and they refused to do it - that is illegal - against the rules.

I don't think people understand the Party was ripped from conservatives and Tea Party when this happened.

Eventually, it's going to become clear to others, but you and I and a few others see it now.

Have to tell you, when I saw that, I grieved at the death of any conservative influence in the Party.

Thanks for your post.

186 posted on 09/01/2012 7:00:49 PM PDT by Marcella (Conservatism is dead. PREPARE)
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To: Marcella; Lazmataz

Thank you for your posts. Of all the reading I have done today, this thread has been THE most insightful. I am a former member of county and state executive committees. I became disillusioned... However, I am willing to fight again... just need some direction.


187 posted on 09/01/2012 7:33:38 PM PDT by lyby ("Mathematics is the language with which God has written the universe." ~ Galileo Galilei)
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To: CharlesWayneCT

The grave problem with your analogy is that if you are an elected official in this country, you are not in the position of those who smuggled Jews. You are in the position of those who were in charge of the German government.

I have become convinced that even if you gave the Republicans 100% of the executive office and legislative seats they would not stop the abortion holocaust.

This is certainly true if those “Republicans” are Romney Republicans.

Which most of the Republicans elected to public office are now becoming.

After all, Romney’s positions leave unalienable rights alienable by courts, or majorities, or states, and subject to “exceptions” that leave every innocent child vulnerable to the threat of being butchered and killed in their mother’s womb.


188 posted on 09/01/2012 7:41:37 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (The saving of America starts the day Christians stop supporting what they say they hate.)
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To: lyby

Wow, even state executive committee. If you haven’t been working with your county chairman, like he/she doesn’t know you are there, he/she would give his/her eye teeth to have someone like you since you know the ropes. My county has our Republican office open all year so a person like you would have a job, like right now.

Even if your county office isn’t open all year, it probably is now until after the election. Just walk in, tell them who you are, what you have done, and get ready for hugs.

Thanks for posting.


189 posted on 09/01/2012 8:17:35 PM PDT by Marcella (Conservatism is dead. PREPARE)
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To: Lazamataz

Thanks for posting, Laz. Please sign me up as the next satisfied customer.

Much obliged...


190 posted on 09/01/2012 8:20:52 PM PDT by MV=PY (The Magic Question: Who's paying for it?)
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To: EternalVigilance; Lazamataz; Drew68; netmilsmom; unkus; Innovative; betty boop; Jeff Head; ...
It wasn’t a political convention in any true sense of the word. It was a sham propaganda show.

Stop picking on the RNC, there EV.

By the looks of your delegates there, it appears that your 3rd party convention had no problems nominating you on the first ballot either.


191 posted on 09/01/2012 8:48:38 PM PDT by Agamemnon (Darwinism is the glue that holds liberalism together)
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To: Lazamataz
"I don't know how to get this message to Romney, but he's GOTTA show us some love. If he doesn't, he's going to face a tougher 2012, and -- if successful in 2012 -- a much MUCH tougher 2016."

Could someone create a petition that we all could sign?

192 posted on 09/01/2012 9:03:49 PM PDT by LADY J (You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have. - Author Unknown)
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To: Lazamataz

Thank you so much for sharing your insights, dear Laz!


193 posted on 09/01/2012 10:19:27 PM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: Lazamataz

Please add me to your ping list. Thanks.


194 posted on 09/02/2012 1:29:12 AM PDT by June2
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To: arasina
I'm trying to figure out which character he is in The Godfather.

'Tessio'...though drunk, unprincipled, it's a smart move. AND simiar to 'Tessio', tell the conservaties it was only business and that 'Tessio's' removal prevents further harm.

195 posted on 09/02/2012 2:36:47 AM PDT by Stand Watch Listen
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To: yefragetuwrabrumuy
As a rough outline, the Tea Party conservatives have done much the same thing, and have made substantial inroads into the party. However, the old guard Republican leadership used some dirty tricks to slap them down. But it does not end here. The erosion will continue.

I don't think you are going far enough. Enough Middle class people are waking up to the fact that this economy will delay their retirement and still burden their children. We are moving from a center right to far right country. The 52% that pay all the taxes are not going to put up with the rest not having "skin in the game".

196 posted on 09/02/2012 4:48:07 AM PDT by verga (Forced to remove tag line by administrator)
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To: Lazamataz
Interesting read and I know that we will have to inflict much pain upon the gop/e to reverse their tyranny. I am not certain what happened in Tampa... I know that the only thing I saw with my eyes and listened to with my ears and which I did not wince once while enjoying... was Clint Eastwood.

The dim party is pure evil but satan... for certain... has his tentacles deep within the gop/e. boenher and mcconnell (who was an utter embarrassment during his speech... looked like Mister MaGoo)... BOTH being master sumbiches and BOTH being liars... BOTH MUST GO!

LLS

197 posted on 09/02/2012 5:06:59 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer ("if it looks like you are not gonna make it you gotta get mean, I mean plumb mad-dog mean" J. Wales)
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To: EternalVigilance

I don’t disagree with your assessment. Politics ia a majority game, and at this point, we don’t have a majority in this country who have been educated enough to ban abortion.

Look at the fight over rape/incest exceptions — it shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the reason abortion should be banned.

I believe that things like focusing on partial birth abortion and the pain an unborn feels are ways to educate people. When we discuss pain, people realise we are discussing a human feeling. When we force women to get ultrasounds (something that in and of itself does NOTHING to suggest abortion is murder), it makes women SEE that the baby is not a mass, but is a tiny human being.

When we banned partial birth abortion, it exposed the pro-abortionists who opposed it — nobody could doubt that a baby who was outside the womb was a human being, and yet there the abortionists were, arguing that since the baby was still attached, and still partly in the womb, it was the mother’s choice.

That argument allows us to now note that abortionists don’t care at all about life, they are really just about making money.

As to the analogy — I would argue that, for abortion, the elected officials are no more in a position of power than the smuggler. The court has ruled, and we can’t ban abortion until we fix the court, which we can’t do until we replace at least one more justice, and a pro-life justice will never be put on the court so long as Obama is president, and the democrats control the senate.

Say what you will about Bush, but he appears to have put 2 pro-life judges on the supreme court during his time in office. His father put one, Reagan put one. How many have democrats done?

But I digress. The problem is that the court has precluded an outright ban. And you might argue that a president could just ignore the court, but house members and senate members certainly can’t pull that trick.

What they CAN do is pass laws that save SOME of the babies, and also humanize the babies, which helps us win the hearts and minds of the people we need to save more babies.

I don’t disagree with your fight to reach the ultimate goal. What I strongly disagree with is your outright attacks on people because they aren’t saving as many lives as you wish.

When we get the supreme court to give abortion back to the states, I doubt half the states will ban abortion entirely. It could take generations to educate people on the value of human life — look how long it took to teach people that race is an artificial distinction.

Frankly, I think abortion will be illegal only by a providential act of God. I see it as a miracle we should pray for, not something we can expect government to provide. I hope it happens one way or another. Until then, I will support candidates who can WIN ELECTIONS, and save as many lives as we can, while espousing the principle that all life is sacred.


198 posted on 09/02/2012 5:07:41 AM PDT by CharlesWayneCT
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To: verga

But there’s the big difference between the left and conservatives.

In a situation like this, the left would push for open class warfare and anger.

Conservatives, on the other hand, don’t want revenge, they want the non-productive Americans to become productive.

This is a pretty across the board philosophical difference as well. For example, crime and punishment.

The liberal approach is to create thousands of laws and send millions of people to prison, but that prisons shouldn’t be harsh places. Like a “time out” in elementary school.

Conservatives, on the other hand, don’t want thousands of laws, yet know that people who commit serious crimes need to be sent to prison; but those they send to prison they want to experience harsh punishment to deter them from doing it again. They would much prefer that people not commit crimes in the first place.

In any event, conservatives look at largess, in whatever form, as a bad thing, and something people need to be motivated away from because of the harm it inflicts on them and their children. But they also recognize that a small number of people cannot make it on their own, so need a “safety net”.

This is why they pushed for “workfare”, instead of just canceling welfare outright. They don’t want to hurt or inflict revenge, they want people to change and better their own lives.

Virtually every largess system can be seriously reformed with an eye to eventual elimination, with other systems picking up the slack. The trick is to do this while harming or cheating as few people as possible.


199 posted on 09/02/2012 5:43:05 AM PDT by yefragetuwrabrumuy
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To: LADY J
Could someone create a petition that we all could sign?

Actually, that's not the worst idea I've ever read!

200 posted on 09/02/2012 7:44:52 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Communist Party = Democrats. Socialist Party = Republicans. WE NEED A CAPITALIST FREEDOM PARTY!)
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