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Pride and Embarrassment for Mixed-Sex Unit after Firefight
Arutz Sheva ^ | 24/9/12 | Gil Ronen

Posted on 09/24/2012 4:19:45 AM PDT by Eleutheria5

The IDF's mixed-sex Caracal unit apparently has reasons for both pride and embarrassment following the firefight on the border with Egypt that left one soldier and three terrorists dead.

The pride is due to the fact that one of the unit's female fighters, a markswoman identified only by the initial S., took part in the assault on the terrorists and shot one of them to death. The embarrassment is due to reports that another female combat soldier cowered behind a bush for over an hour, causing fear that she had been abducted.

S. has been feted by the media, which has been enamored with the IDF's women-in-combat program for more than a decade.

On Sunday, however, reports from the IDF's initial inquiry into the firefight revealed that another female soldier from Caracal behaved in a way that could cast doubt on the entire logic behind the creation of mixed-sex units.

The soldier, who serves in Caracal's reconnaissance unit, was near the Artillery Corps force that came under fire when the incident began. The rest of her unit was not far away at the time. She radioed to her unit that the force had come under fire, but then proceeded to hide behind a Hummer vehicle's tire, with her weapon's safety catch still on. She proceeded from there to a bush, where she hid for over an hour. At no point did she open fire at the terrorists, according to the initial details from the investigation. .....

(Excerpt) Read more at israelnationalnews.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News; Israel; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: firefight; idf; mixedresult; mixedsex
Not that it means anything one way or another, but men also fold under fire. I'd oppose women being put in combat units simply because there's no need for it, not because they are not brave enough. When you're desperate, such as in 1948 in Israel, or during the siege of Leningrad, you send women into combat. Otherwise, you stick with men, just as women and children go first from sinking ships. It's a basic philosophical thing to do with rebuilding the human race after a cataclysm.
1 posted on 09/24/2012 4:19:52 AM PDT by Eleutheria5
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To: Eleutheria5

I’m not sure I could even carry all the stuff that men in combat are required to carry.


2 posted on 09/24/2012 4:25:12 AM PDT by Holly_P
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To: Eleutheria5

I seem to remember much the same thing happening to men in our Civil War. I think someone may have even written a story about it. “The Red Badge of Courage” or something like that.


3 posted on 09/24/2012 4:55:03 AM PDT by Hawk1976 (It is better to die in on your feet than it is to live as on your knees.)
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To: Eleutheria5

MK Yaakov Katz has told the Knesset that military research shows female soldiers’ health – including reproductive health – is greatly endangered by service in combat units.


LOL—That’s true for men too. And, yes, a woman captured by the enemy would be a big, big problem for her, her unit, and the Country.


4 posted on 09/24/2012 4:57:40 AM PDT by rbg81
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To: Eleutheria5

shades of Jessica Lynch...at least she didn’t get a Bronze Star for hiding...


5 posted on 09/24/2012 4:59:48 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: Eleutheria5

The U.S. Army is having medical problems with women in combat zones. Because of the poor hygiene, the women are more prone to urinary infections and yeast infections. The basic anatomical differences between men and women is the problem. I DO NOT question the capabilities of women to perform technical or tactical task in combat. However, I question if their presence is really necessary? Unlike the Israelis where their literary are not enough men, that is not the case in this country. Also, and this is a failing of men, the women are very subject to sexual assault by our own male personnel. This has been the source of PTSD in women that men seldom have to deal with because of the gender differences. With our society being oversexualized, it is no wonder these problems are occuring.

Women have become an essential part of the military. However, I am not sure that there use in forward areas in warranted. Also, a basic respect for women (as females to be protected) needs to be incalcated in the male soldiers to curb the sexual abuse. This goes against the concept of women being no different than men. We have got to stop fighting the nature of human gender differences.


6 posted on 09/24/2012 5:31:25 AM PDT by Sola Veritas (Trying to speak truth - not always with the best grammar or spelling)
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To: Sola Veritas

Even if men would respect their co-troops, the enemy will not. During wars against Syria, female IDF used to commit suicide rather than be captured. Rape? That’s for normal people. Fighting some of these beasts, mutilation is just where they start.


7 posted on 09/24/2012 5:36:58 AM PDT by Eleutheria5 (End the occupation. Annex today.)
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To: Sola Veritas
"Also, and this is a failing of men, the women are very subject to sexual assault by our own male personnel."

I would like to think that this is freakishly rare. Do you have any stats on this crime?

8 posted on 09/24/2012 5:38:52 AM PDT by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: Eleutheria5
A few years ago I saw a documentary on Marine recruit training.They featured a company of male recruits and one of female recruits and,at the outset,the claim was that the men and women underwent *identical* training.After one particularly difficult day,they talked to several guys who were obviously tired,sore and perhaps even a little discouraged.Fade to several female recruits who had just had the same training day....they were sobbing uncontrollably.

I wish I had recorded it.

9 posted on 09/24/2012 5:50:51 AM PDT by Gay State Conservative (Ambassador Stevens Is Dead And The Chevy Volt Is Alive!)
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To: Future Snake Eater

Yes, no bronze star for hiding or for surrendering. But, we still respect the decision a person makes to join the military. People just don’t know how they are going to react in a live combat situation, even with training (and without training the vast majority will break and run). Besides, sometimes the prudent thing is to hide or to surrender.


10 posted on 09/24/2012 5:51:56 AM PDT by Redmen4ever
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To: Eleutheria5; All

There is one key difference here..Israel, the entire country, is the front line in this war. You really can’t keep women out of combat over there...it comes to them.


11 posted on 09/24/2012 6:27:16 AM PDT by ken5050
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To: Eleutheria5
"Voice of Israel radio reported that the soldier called her mother during the firefight and shouted "gunfire!" into the phone. The mother heard the firefight through the telephone."

Called her Mother during the firefight!
Get her outta there.

12 posted on 09/24/2012 6:42:40 AM PDT by Tainan (Cogito, ergo conservatus sum)
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To: Eleutheria5
"Men are expendable; women and children are not.
A tribe or nation can lose a high percentage of its men and still go on,
Picking up the pieces, as long as its women and children are saved.
But if you fail to save the women and children, you've had it.
You're done. You're through. You join Tyrannosaurus Rex:
Just another species that failed its final test."

Robert A. Heinlein
"The Pragmatics of Patriotism" (1973)

13 posted on 09/24/2012 7:02:19 AM PDT by BlueLancer (You cannot conquer a free man. The most you can do is kill him. (R. Heinlein - "If This Goes On"))
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To: ken5050
You really can’t keep women out of combat over there...it comes to them.

So this poor girl was just hanging out the laundry in the backyard and found herself under attack, huh?

"Can't keep women out of combat"? "It comes to them"? Gimme a break.
14 posted on 09/24/2012 7:02:52 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: LearsFool
I think you missed his point however without any fundamental knowledge of history, I'm not sure it would have mattered.
15 posted on 09/24/2012 7:39:05 AM PDT by paul51 (11 September 2001 - Never forget)
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To: paul51

Thanks..nice job...


16 posted on 09/24/2012 7:42:10 AM PDT by ken5050
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To: Redmen4ever

Military awards have become increasingly extravagant since WW II. It was common to see a US sailor who served in combat for the entire WW II with three or four ribbons. Today, a US serviceperson who has served for ten years and never been in a war zone can have fifteen or more. Flying recon in Vietnam required 300 hours to earn one Air Medal. Today tacair gets an Air Medal for each flight. I suspect the Bronze Star has seen the same inflation.


17 posted on 09/24/2012 7:52:56 AM PDT by pabianice (washington, dc ..)
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To: BlueLancer

The democratic left, enemies of the US Constitution, use this issue to break the will of the American people to fight, really fight in a time of war. The only reason women are not subject to a draft is because they are (were) not allowed in combat. That is no longer the case, so imagine a future war requiring a draft. Would we fight it knowing little Susie who baby sits your kids will likely be drafted and millions more like her? I doubt it.


18 posted on 09/24/2012 8:06:12 AM PDT by jpsb
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To: paul51

Oh, I got his point: Israel is constantly under attack from Muslim neighbors, and Muslims would like to kill every Israeli man, woman, and child.

I just disagree with his conclusion: It is therefore necessary for all Israeli women to become combat soldiers.


19 posted on 09/24/2012 8:17:38 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: Durus; Sola Veritas; Eleutheria5
8 posted on Mon Sep 24 2012 07:38:52 GMT-0500 (Central Daylight Time) by Durus: “I would like to think that this is freakishly rare. Do you have any stats on this crime?”

Stats exist, and they're bad enough, but even worse are the unreported assaults.

It's a problem. “No” means “no,” and people who don't understand that have a major underlying problem even if they never get caught or reported.

Let's be fair, however — the military deals with the problem much better than most institutions. Put lots of 18-to-25-year-olds together in a high-stress environment, create a 10-to-1 male-female ratio, and you're going to have a certain amount of problems.

20 posted on 09/24/2012 8:24:49 AM PDT by darrellmaurina
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To: paul51

Perhaps we need to review a little more history. The IDF does NOT want women in combat roles. After the 1948 war an internal study concluded there were too many problems with their deployment and women were excluded from combat for decades.

Left wing politicians in the Knesset have forced the IDF to add women to combat units. They are still under pressure to pick up the pace of change, and have faced charges of dragging their feet for not doing so.


21 posted on 09/24/2012 8:31:01 AM PDT by SoCal Pubbie
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To: Redmen4ever
People just don’t know how they are going to react in a live combat situation, even with training

Very true.

Besides, sometimes the prudent thing is to hide

Maybe.

or to surrender.

Not when you're dealing with hajis.

22 posted on 09/24/2012 8:53:46 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: Future Snake Eater

>>Is it ever prudent to surrender?

You sort of concede that it sometimes is, by saying not when dealing with hajis.

Perhaps by using “hajis” you mean Al Qaida, a transnational organization that has not signed the Geneva Accords and which has not conducted itself in accordance with Geneva so as to not warrant a presumption of acceptance. Clearly, when dealing with such an entity, the scales of prudence are inclined against surrender.

The example of Masada stands as a monument that there are indeed times when you would choose suicide over surrender.


23 posted on 09/24/2012 9:17:24 AM PDT by Redmen4ever
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To: Holly_P

Me neither Holly. Me neither.


24 posted on 09/24/2012 9:22:16 AM PDT by Fightin Whitey
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To: Redmen4ever

If you’re dealing with a professional military, it might be prudent to surrender. When you’re dealing with Islamic crazies, you’ll be better off going down fighting. They’ll torture and murder you anyway, it’s just a matter of how long they want to hang on to you before they do.


25 posted on 09/24/2012 9:40:09 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: Hawk1976
I seem to remember much the same thing happening to men in our Civil War.

IIRC, it happened fairly frequently up through WWII. Marksmanship training changed afterwards and made people more comfortable returning fire.

26 posted on 09/24/2012 9:54:14 AM PDT by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: LearsFool

Ummm... ISREAL is the FRONT. There is your break.


27 posted on 09/24/2012 10:02:37 AM PDT by Safetgiver ( Islam makes barbarism look genteel.)
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To: pabianice

I suspect the Bronze Star has seen the same inflation....In VN, I feel the Bronze was given to almost anybody anywhere near an explosion, or shots fired. NOT the Combat Bronze, mind you. I got one and at Commander’s Call was called up front to receive it. I was dumbfounded and said “What for?” It was not taken humorously by the officers. A cook’s assistant got one the same ceremony for taking turkey up to a fire base on Thanksgiving. He told us at the beer bash (after) he never saw, heard or was aware there was NVA on that road. It was all political for the papers back home.


28 posted on 09/24/2012 10:10:38 AM PDT by Safetgiver ( Islam makes barbarism look genteel.)
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To: Redmen4ever

“...and which has not conducted itself in accordance with Geneva so as to not warrant a presumption of acceptance.”

I don’t believe American soldiers have ever faced an enemy that conducted itself in accordance with Geneva, with the possible exception of NAZI Germany. Al-queda is no different from a long list of others in that respect.


29 posted on 09/24/2012 3:33:20 PM PDT by Owl558 ("Those who remember George Satayana are doomed to repeat him")
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To: Sola Veritas

I knew a guy in Germany whose father was an infantry company commander during the Soviet siege of Berlin in 1945.

The Germans re-captured a slaughterhouse in East Berlin from a Russian women’s infantry brigade.

The women had hung their German prisoners from the meat hooks...alive.

His comment: “Women can make fine infantry. You just have to have the right women”.


30 posted on 09/24/2012 3:52:23 PM PDT by darth
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