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Who Destroyed the Economy? The Case Against the Baby Boomers
The Atlantic ^ | 10/08/2012 | Jim Tankersley

Posted on 10/08/2012 8:11:26 AM PDT by SeekAndFind

Retirees and near-retirees are leaving behind a devastated economy for their children ... but are we doing anything to fix it? Here, two generations debate who's really to blame for the wreckage.

*****

CRESCENT LAKE, Ore.--My father taught me how to throw a baseball and divide big numbers in my head and build a life where I'd be home in time to eat dinner with my kid most nights. He and my mother put me through college and urged me to follow my dreams. He never complained when I entered a field even less respected than his. He lives across the country and still calls just to check in and say he loves me.

His name is Tom. He is 63, tall and lean, a contracts lawyer in a small Oregon town. A few wisps of hair still reach across his scalp. The moustache I have never seen him without has faded from deep brown to silver. The puns he tormented my younger brother and me with throughout our childhood have evolved, improbably, into the funniest jokes my 6-year-old son has ever heard. I love my dad fiercely, even though he's beaten me in every argument we've ever had except two, and even though he is, statistically and generationally speaking, a parasite.

This is the charge I've leveled against him on a summer day in our Pacific Northwest vision of paradise. I have asked my favorite attorney to represent a very troublesome client, the entire baby-boom generation, in what should be a slam-dunk trial--for me. On behalf of future generations, I am accusing him and all the other parasites his age of breaking the sacred bargain that every American generation will pass a better country on to its children than the one it inherited.

(Excerpt) Read more at theatlantic.com ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: babyboomers; economy
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: Opinionated Blowhard

Considering the story of Col Crockett & farmer Bunce we need to go back alot further than that. In fact this particular problem goes ALL the way back.


51 posted on 10/08/2012 9:45:01 AM PDT by skeeter
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To: taxcontrol
It was not till I took Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace training (currently on week 4) that I realized how the nation’s views of credit have changed so radically since the 1950’s.

I am also in week 4. My problem is not bad spending habits that caused our debt issues. 4 years ago, my wife and I were debt free (except mortgage) and had 6 months of living in savings. After two job losses and a healthy wage cut over the last 4 years, our nest egg vanished and we find ourselves in a sea of debt. The free-fall has stabilized but we are having to reduce our lifestyle AGAIN to compensate for a future that we have low expectations for.

I personally have given up on the American Dream for my wife and I. I doubt I will ever get to retire. Our goals are now to get our kids in a position to "beat the system" in their future. We are now trying to find a way to make their opportunities and possibilities attainable.

We are now reduced to keeping the American Dream alive for our children, excepting that our own American Dream is dead. We'll keep our sweating and bleeding to get ahead. But between my wife and I, we have 1 full-time job, 2 part time jobs and one small side-business we are trying to keep profitable.

(That's probably sharing too much now that I think of it.... Oh well...I'm not ashamed so I'll go ahead and hit post.)

52 posted on 10/08/2012 9:47:11 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (The Click-&-Paste Media exists & works in Utopia, riding unicorns & sniffing pixy dust.)
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To: All

There is enough blame to go around, we need to quit pointing fingers and fix the mess. All the finger pointing will do is divide us and make our forces weaker.


53 posted on 10/08/2012 9:48:10 AM PDT by Nowhere Man (June 28th, 2012, the Day America Jumped The Shark.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Anybody who voted for a Democrat is responsible.


54 posted on 10/08/2012 9:49:57 AM PDT by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: chargers fan
“Dennis Prager says, they had great morals but failed to pass them on to their children.”

He's skipping my generation, which is the smallest in history, that is between them and the baby boomers.

Everything was passed on to my generation and we are the ones that failed to smack the crap out of the baby boomers and give them a background for hard work and individual responsibility.

55 posted on 10/08/2012 9:55:20 AM PDT by dalereed
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To: SeekAndFind

And this Oregon man who has probably voted for every liberal since his first vote complains that the baba boomers didn’t get his generation off of oil??? That’s his argument??? That baby boomers had a lively economy because (up until Nixon) the government was mostly non-interventionist in the economy and that housing costs were cheaper? Lord love a duck what a dolt.

Conservatives have been screaming about this for a long time. It is not the boomers as such... it is the lazy who want something for nothing; those who would buy a house beyond their means and then scream that the government owes them help when they go into default.

I am a boomer. After my divorce I no longer had a house. What I have lived in since then has been one room rented within my budget. My child’s education was paid for out of pocket not through government loans (just like my own education was). I feel no obligation to apologize to those little parasites (the author’s choice of words) who decided to get stupid degrees at great cost and now can’t find a job.

My only question to this author would be simple....Did you vote for O? Well then you got what you voted for.


56 posted on 10/08/2012 9:57:58 AM PDT by Nifster
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To: juno67
Social security is fully funded for the next twenty years or so.

False. According the Social Security Benefits Statement that I recently received, only 75% of the stated benefits that I have earned will be available in 2025 as a result of unfunded liabilities. But they also say that congress can change these laws to correct this.

I AM NOT KIDDING OR EXAGERATING, THE SS STATEMENTS ACUTALLY DO SAY THIS. I'm 39.

57 posted on 10/08/2012 9:59:41 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (The Click-&-Paste Media exists & works in Utopia, riding unicorns & sniffing pixy dust.)
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To: juno67
Social Security....It is not a Ponzi scheme.

By the very definition of "Ponzi Scheme," it qualifies. When immediate wealth or monetary distribution is soley dependent on an increasing number of donators with an expected future return and no actual exchange or goods or services, it's a Ponzi Scheme. Or you could call it a pyramid scheme.

Anyway you look at it, the system is dependent on a growing population putting money into the system so that a smaller group of dependents can effectively draw from it. The problem is, the population of people contibuting to the system is not growing at a pace to keep up with those collecting from it. The last one in get caught holding the bag. That's the way Ponzi/Pyramid schemes work.

58 posted on 10/08/2012 10:06:21 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (The Click-&-Paste Media exists & works in Utopia, riding unicorns & sniffing pixy dust.)
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To: SeekAndFind

it was “The Greatest Generation” who voted themselves their grandchildren’s money (that would be you and me) decades ago.

The geezers are still up to it though... so I am beginning to question whether they were ‘fooled’ or not...


59 posted on 10/08/2012 10:09:21 AM PDT by Mr. K ("The only thing the World would hate more than the USA in charge is the USA NOT in charge")
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To: SeekAndFind
The author's biggest concerns seem to be we haven't done enough to stop global warming . . . and some people (younger taxpayers) will have to pay an "unfair" tax rate that supported people other than themselves. ( previous generation)

I wonder if he realizes the paradox of what he is saying and asking for?

Of course not. True liberal thought process.

60 posted on 10/08/2012 10:10:05 AM PDT by builder (I don't want a piece of someone else's pie)
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To: SeekAndFind
Who Destroyed the Economy? The Case Against the Baby Boomers

Oh, BS!

The federal government ensured the destruction of the economy when it decided it had the authority to regulate every nuance of a 'free' market.....while burdening the People with the cost of its bureaucracy.

IMHO, playing the blame game while totally disregarding the basic cause is pointless.

61 posted on 10/08/2012 10:12:18 AM PDT by MamaTexan (I am a Person as Created by the Laws of Nature, not a person as created by the laws of Man)
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To: Tijeras_Slim
After reading the article, I have a strong desire to take a tire iron to both these pricks.

Agreed. Pretty weak 'reasoning' on both sides.

I remember back in the 80s, that in the budgets sent to congress, there were charts and tables that pointed to a future where the children being born at the time would eventually be subject to 80%-90% taxation just to pay for what was already on the table. Clinton was the first president to stop providing these tables as a part of the budgeting process, for obvious reasons - it was plain to anyone who bothered to even briefly look at the projections that their schemes were unsustainable. The practice was never returned to. Both parties have sold us out in every way imaginable.We are so very thouroughly screwed, and yet even today, everyone is whistling past the graveyard.

The really funny thing about it all is that if Romney becomes president, he'll inherit things just about the time the wheels well and truely come off the wagon, so he'll ultimately get the blame because the educational system of this country has produced multiple generations of drones without a memory or the ability to reason for themselves.

62 posted on 10/08/2012 10:15:03 AM PDT by zeugma (Rid the world of those savages. - Dorothy Woods, widow of a Navy Seal, AMEN!)
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To: puppypusher
I,a baby boomer have worked all of my life and have gotten ZIP from the Federal Government as have a large portion of the other FReepers here.

Wrong.

You don't have to receive money directly from the federal government to have enjoyed the benefit of government spending.

The entire economy for the past 30 years has been juiced in part by government debt. A borrowed dollar that is spent to pay for medical care, for example, subsidizes doctors. A borrowed dollar that is spent to build an F-22 raptor subsidizes engineers and industrial workers. A borrowed dollar that is spent to build a road subsidizes construction workers.

And of course all those groups subsidize the people that serve them -- farmers that grow their food, for instance.

Now boomers are retiring -- some of them after building savings indirectly from money that was borrowed by the federal government -- and they're not going to have to pay it back. That will be done by later generations.

63 posted on 10/08/2012 10:15:14 AM PDT by conservative sympathizer
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To: Myrddin

I’m 39. I don’t blame Baby Boomers or any one generation in general.

Hell, if the fiscal conservative mentality displayed on FR governed this nation from the 50’s, this country would be begging for more highly educated immgrants to fill sought employment positions as a lack of supply is met with booming labor demands to keep up with a still growing economy.

Poor people would own houses, have big screen TVs, drive cars and use smart phones.....oh wait....Nevermind on that last part.


64 posted on 10/08/2012 10:15:34 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (The Click-&-Paste Media exists & works in Utopia, riding unicorns & sniffing pixy dust.)
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To: Lancey Howard

Well said.


65 posted on 10/08/2012 10:21:01 AM PDT by Gator113 (I would have voted for NEWT, now it's Ryan and the other guy.~Just livin' life, my way~)
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To: Tenacious 1

We were doing well until two transmissions and a failed business. Back to the drawing board for us as well. Fortunately I have been the primary bread winner and my wife has decided to go back to work. We have a path out as long as we walk it.


66 posted on 10/08/2012 10:21:12 AM PDT by taxcontrol
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To: floralamiss

I resent being identified as a “Baby Boomer” because although I was born within that demographic’s range (’46-’64), I and my friends were all much younger than the people we’d see in the newspapers, magazines and TV carrying on, tripping out on LSD in the nude, “riding rainbows”, smoking dope, shooting heroin, protesting the war, burning buildings, flags and bras, coming home from Vietnam in flag-draped coffins (and to shouts of “Babykiller”), Molotov cocktail-throwing yippies...all-around self-centered assh*les, if you ask me...

I was only 10, going on 11 when the Beatles broke up. Jimi, Janis and Jim, Abby Hoffman, Jerry Rubin, Angela Davis, Tom Hayden, Bill Ayers, Ira Einhorn, (none of whom BTW, were baby boomers themselves)...I never knew anyone who went to Vietnam until I was almost 20 years old and we did not live sheltered or cloistered lives.

Then by the mid-’70’s many of them decided that in order to beat the system or Establishment, they had to join it but as it turned out, they love money and power as much as their predecessors did and became unabashed Young Upward Professionals or “yuppies” who found Disco, cocaine Valium, Quaaludes, booze and wreckless unprotected kinky and depraved sex to be the next big things as they continued to “evolve”.

I’ll admit that some of my peers adopted that mantra for themselves and became money-hungy, power-grabbing cokeheads who’d pay big bucks to leave their kids in daycare centers while they, as dual-income parents and unmarrieds, made their ways to the “big time”...and then they’d get divorced or become otherwise estranged from their families.

God, I’m so damned glad I didn’t follow them...But I am glad to still have the music to listen to after all of these years.

I’m so glad. I’m so glad. I’m glad, I’m glad, I’m glad...


67 posted on 10/08/2012 10:23:44 AM PDT by equaviator (There's nothing like the universe to bring you down to earth.)
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To: Myrddin

And you and your wife should be very proud of yourselves. You are good, generous Americans. You are a giver, never a taker.


68 posted on 10/08/2012 10:31:57 AM PDT by miss marmelstein
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To: Tenacious 1

“... only 75% of the stated benefits that I have earned will be available in 2025 as a result of unfunded liabilities.”

I haven’t seen the Statement that you are talking about, but I suspect that what it means is that the missing 25%, which was an excess paid over the last twenty years or so, has not been saved as a fund to cover the baby boomer’s coming shortfall (as was the plan devised under Alan Greenspans’s supervision in the 80’s), but has been spent to cover past excesses of our government. In this sense, the Statement is correct. However, if you take into consideration the total amount paid in, I think you will find that it balances with the amount paid out for another twenty years. The problem was not social security itself, but the government’s overspending in general.


69 posted on 10/08/2012 10:38:16 AM PDT by juno67 (Gua)
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To: SeekAndFind

“kept his (dad’s) nose in his books while his University of California (Santa Barbara)”

I’m sorry, but I don’t know how any HUMAN can study at that location - it is one of the most beautiful on Earth.


70 posted on 10/08/2012 10:42:22 AM PDT by BobL (You can live each day only once. You can waste a few, but don't waste too many.)
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To: juno67
I haven’t seen the Statement that you are talking about,...

Apparently the statement is not on all potential beneficiary's statements. It's been on mine for several years. I have a .pdf (redacted) copy I made on the home computer.

I agree with the rest of your statement explaining why the SS department is notifying me of my future 25% reduction in benefits. :o)

I have VERY low expectations of social security in my future. Anything I get will be bonus if I retire before I die.

71 posted on 10/08/2012 10:45:42 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (The Click-&-Paste Media exists & works in Utopia, riding unicorns & sniffing pixy dust.)
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To: Opinionated Blowhard

When I am 71 drop me from SS, six years, I will have a Zero percent return on the money extorted me and my employers over the years.

Give me a medical insurance policy I can afford, and it won’t affect my lifestyle, I am a first year boomer.


72 posted on 10/08/2012 10:53:16 AM PDT by Little Bill
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To: Darren McCarty
Boomers didn't give us the "Great Society." None of them could even vote for LBJ.

The youngsters never figured this out.

LBJ, another president from Texas

73 posted on 10/08/2012 10:53:19 AM PDT by dragnet2 (Diversion and evasion are tools of deceit)
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To: SeekAndFind

Boomer-Losers bump for later...


74 posted on 10/08/2012 10:54:17 AM PDT by indthkr
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To: taxcontrol; Lurkina.n.Learnin; Henry Hnyellar; Tenacious 1; Nowhere Man

Saving was always the norm - Credit and debt for the average family is a new invention:

Credit Cards:
1959 - option of maintaining a revolving balance was introduced. Cardholders no longer had to pay off their full bills at the end of each cycle.

1966 - a national credit card system was formed when a group of credit-issuing banks joined together and created the InterBank Card Association

1987 - American Express issued a credit card allowing customers to pay over time rather than at the end of every month.


75 posted on 10/08/2012 11:18:28 AM PDT by donna (Pray for revival.)
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To: ErnBatavia

Same old, same old. Some things never change.


76 posted on 10/08/2012 11:31:28 AM PDT by Graybeard58 (If you fear Obama, you'll vote for Romney. If you fear God, you won't.)
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To: SeekAndFind

Congress destroyed the economy.


77 posted on 10/08/2012 12:17:38 PM PDT by Temujinshordes
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To: SeekAndFind

There are a number of reasons for why Americans of this writers generation are facing fewer employment choices and a different retirement. The jobs he speaks of from 45 years ago that didn’t require a college degree and were good paying were in the manufacturing sector . America no longer has a manufacturing economy.


78 posted on 10/08/2012 12:30:03 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: 9YearLurker; SeekAndFind; Pelham; Twink; dixiechick2000; Travis McGee; miss marmelstein; skeeter
Now early Baby Boomers are doing the same.

that is simply untrue...early boomers were the first to pay into Medicare from first working age

now try this one Sherlock, I'm 55 in 3 weeks and have paid FICA and Medicare all my life since I started work as a teen (summer 1969..first job on a payroll) and since mid 20s due to my industrious nature have always maxed out FICA

now look at all the reform models...I'm just months out of luck for the cutoff all gen X types like Ryan use to save the system..a lifetime of over a half million in contributions (at least) and do I get a return on my investment?

no...it went to pay entitlement for less motivated folks but since Ryan is a Generation X player can I blame him for making those 55 and under the cut off?

children blame...adults find solutions..I could play the blame game too and have paid a lot more in than kids here whining have

it's a sign of maturity and conservatism not to fall for the lure of blaming everyone else

79 posted on 10/08/2012 1:04:49 PM PDT by wardaddy (my wife prays in the tanning bed....guess what region i live in...ya'll?)
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To: wardaddy

Sorry, pal—but you’re a late Boomer, not an early one.

And I earlier in this thread said the posted argument wasn’t valid. It is however accurate to state that many old folks today are getting and will get way, way, way more out of the system than they put into it.


80 posted on 10/08/2012 1:09:46 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: chargers fan
I never blamed the Baby Boomers for the SS/Medicare mess. I blame them for having enough vocal and active members that were able to change the course of the country in the 60s. Also, I blame the “Greatest Generation” more for that.

People forget that there is a generation before boomers, the silent generation of almost all the rock stars and young leaders of the 1960s, Jimi Hendrix, The Beatles, Jimmy Page, Joan Baez, Bill Alinsky and Bernadette Dohrn, Jane Fonda, The Chicago Seven, Janis Joplin, Bob Seeger, Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young, Van Morrison, Jim Morrison and so on, just about everyone that a person thinks was a boomer during the 1960s, was not a boomer at all.

81 posted on 10/08/2012 2:26:53 PM PDT by ansel12
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To: wardaddy

Bravo, wardaddy! You tell ‘em!


82 posted on 10/08/2012 2:28:20 PM PDT by miss marmelstein
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To: jmacusa
America no longer has a manufacturing economy.

Aren't we still first or second in manufacturing, having been knocked off the top spot only in 2011, with over 19% of the world's total?

83 posted on 10/08/2012 2:48:01 PM PDT by ansel12
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To: 9YearLurker; ansel12
Sorry, pal—but you’re a late Boomer, not an early one

never said I was junior...I tell you one thing..we may have rebelled against authority and created mayhem of all sorts but we didn't whine and blame fiscal matters on others and for God's sake we never had women drive us around

I deplore that when I see youngsters like yourself being chauffeured around by the women..it's so emasculated

84 posted on 10/08/2012 2:57:12 PM PDT by wardaddy (my wife prays in the tanning bed....guess what region i live in...ya'll?)
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To: Opinionated Blowhard
HOw many posts before this thread turns into the typical FR war zone of “I earned my Social Security and Medicare and I’m taking every penny” vs. “You’re a greedy old moocher”??? Pass the popcorn.

These threads seem more thoughtful, more sophisticated, and more accurately historically, than they were 5 and 6 years ago.

85 posted on 10/08/2012 3:06:06 PM PDT by ansel12
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To: wardaddy

I made an accurate statement, that many early Baby Boomers are now starting to take out many times what they put into Medicare—and you tried to correct me by saying that that was false.

Here is a document which shows the average Medicare recipient who turned 65 in 2010 taking out more than 3X what they put into the system:

http://www.urban.org/UploadedPDF/social-security-medicare-benefits-over-lifetime.pdf


86 posted on 10/08/2012 3:26:06 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: wardaddy

Oh, and BTW Ryan’s current plan allows people like you to stay in the system if you so choose.


87 posted on 10/08/2012 3:30:13 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: 9YearLurker
Isn't it worse for those in the 2010 chart, or am I reading this wrong?

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

88 posted on 10/08/2012 3:56:12 PM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

It’s great for the 2010ers (and those before them): they put in only the light green, but they get the maroon back for Medicare.


89 posted on 10/08/2012 4:37:50 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: 9YearLurker

It looks to me like the 2010 set gets the least return for their dollars, compared to those before them and those yet to come, as the 2030 chart shows.

Your chart seems to be the opposite of what you wanted to show.


90 posted on 10/08/2012 4:43:22 PM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12

They’re still getting something like 3X what they put in.

That is an unsustainable Ponzi scheme and it shows exactly what I said, which is that they’re starting to get several times their money back just like the generation before them.


91 posted on 10/08/2012 6:48:22 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: ansel12

They’re still getting something like 3X what they put in.

That is an unsustainable Ponzi scheme and it shows exactly what I said, which is that they’re starting to get several times their money back just like the generation before them.


92 posted on 10/08/2012 6:48:42 PM PDT by 9YearLurker
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To: Ol' Sox

BINGO! Nailed it! Kudos to YOU!

There was even a Time magazine article from 1950 decrying the so called ‘Silent Generation’.

The ‘Silent Generation’ were too young to fight in WWII and too old to fight in Vietnam.

Harry Reid...San Fran Nan... Silent Generation.


93 posted on 10/08/2012 7:07:29 PM PDT by bigoil (Study Thy Nixon)
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To: bigoil

The Silent Generation, 1925-1945 saw lots of war, the oldest in WWII, then Korea, and a lot of Vietnam, millions were drafted and served, but they were also the main figures of the hippie 1960s, that most people think of as boomers.


94 posted on 10/08/2012 7:15:49 PM PDT by ansel12
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To: Ol' Sox

The Silents have always had that chip on their shoulder—their whole lives they have been sucking the dust og the GG.

They never elected a President. They have just wrecked everything.

Read “The Fourth Turning.” I had my wife listen to the audiobook on a long drive. By the time we got home she hated the Silents, was sick of the boomers, and was scared for our Millenial kids.

The study of generational attributes does not suggest a good time between now and 2020.

Sucks to be us.


95 posted on 10/08/2012 7:29:13 PM PDT by Vermont Lt (If you are a white conservative, you MUST be a racist. ;-))
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The baby boomers gave you Ronald Reagan, which you repaid by electing Billyboy. And Obama. The only age group that saw through obama was 65 and over. All the rest of you sucked his spew and thought it was ice cream.

Boomers didn't invent SS, and they didn't invent Medicare. Their parents did. Don't like it, go tell it to your great grandpa, if he's still alive, and the rest of the felonious "greatest generation" who colluded with "New Deal" FDR, "New Frontier" Kennedy, and "Great Society" Johnson, before boomers ever had a chance to vote on any of it.

96 posted on 10/08/2012 8:23:29 PM PDT by hinckley buzzard
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To: ansel12

We’ve gone from a manufacturing economy to a service economy. Manufacturing hasn’t completely disappeared but it’s just not what it once was. I’m 56 and I can remember factories and small machine shops in my town and the surrounding area of Northern New Jersey were I grew up. Heck, I remember hear the noon-time whistle and the five o’clock whistle. When I graduated high school in ‘75, a lot of my friends who took mechanical drawing(remember that?) got jobs as machinists in tool and die shops. Those days are gone. Can you name one electric appliance made in America anymore?


97 posted on 10/08/2012 9:08:27 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa

If we are first in the world, or second for the very first time in 2011, we must be doing an awful lot of manufacturing.

Being neck and neck with China as we each account for about 19.5% of the world’s total, shows that we are still a manufacturing giant.


98 posted on 10/08/2012 9:56:17 PM PDT by ansel12
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To: ansel12
I said manufacturing wasn't dead, but where are the steel mills? GM is barely breathing, Obama is killing off the coal industry, there hasn't been an oil refinery built in America for decades and we don't make tvs and other kinds of electronics anymore and manufacturers have been heading to Mexico for decades. . As I said we still manufacture but everything I've heard speaks of us as a service economy and now we're supposed to be entering ;the Information Age, whatever the hell that is. I suppose it has to do computer type jobs and what kids study in college, referred to as ‘’communications’’. Go to Walmart(speaking of the Chinese) or Best Buy and Home depot. Look at the labels on all kinds of goods, especially electronics.
99 posted on 10/08/2012 11:09:19 PM PDT by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: jmacusa

I agree, being the number one manufacturing nation in the world except for 2011 (2nd), and manufacturing almost 20% of the world’s stuff definitely means that manufacturing isn’t dead in America.


100 posted on 10/08/2012 11:58:04 PM PDT by ansel12
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 99 | View Replies]


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