Skip to comments.How should Christians vote on November 6th?
Posted on 10/29/2012 7:41:14 PM PDT by billflax
Christians frightened for Americas future face a conundrum this electoral season. Biblical precepts must steer our politics; loving God with all our hearts, souls and minds obviously includes discernment at the polls. When you enter the voting booth, says R.C. Sproul, dont leave your Christianity in the parking lot.
How should Christians vote their beliefs?
Only God knows either candidates heart, but Mitt Romney professes Mormonism. Culturally, Mormons make for great neighbors and business partners. Many behave better than most Christians, but faith is more than mere morals. When Latter-day Saints talk of Christ they conceive of a created being.
Barack Obama has articulated an Oprah-like ecumenical Christianity with many paths to the same place. Liberation Theology, which his former church preaches, superimposes spiritual vocabulary to Marxist thinking. Properly understood, Marxism reflects a complete rejection of Christianity.
So do Democrats apparently.
(Excerpt) Read more at forbes.com ...
My answer to the question ‘does Jesus want you to vote democrat or republican’ is that Jesus does not want your vote he wants your life. Neither party is the christian party. Both define morality as 50% plus 1. But presently one party is clearly more hostile to believing christianily than they other.
If Christians want to survive in this country, they should NOT vote for Obama or for any demokrat politician.
A vote for Obama is a vote for Islam.
I totally agree with you!
Christians should vote with the Supreme Court in mind.
The SCOTUS for the next 20 years will be determined by this election — presidential AND senatorial. For a Christian, it is unconscionable to leave those SCOTUS to obama by default.
The Supreme Court is the only chance for the leftists to govern outside the Constitution, because none of what they want to do is in the Constitution. To govern outside the Constitution, they need communists like Kagan, Sotomayor and Ginsberg on the Court.
While there is no guarantee what kinds of justices we will get with Romney, we can at least be assured they will not be anything like those skanks.
Yes it’s the Mormon crap again. PASSE, so passe.
Vote for the guy who’s trying to become a god rather than the guy who thinks he already is god. The first guy will work harder.
I’ll choose Romney’s personal character and moral standards any day over those of LBJ or JFK or WJClinton. Recent female college grads working in Romney’s White House need not fear being made sexual playthings.
The real problem is that it’s questionable if Romney has any intent of governing as a conservative. We conservatives have been like Charlie Brown to the RINO Lucy, suckering us into trusting them one more time. So here we go again.
Obama is pure evil, but I have no faith that Romney will do what he actually promises. If he governs as a RINO, we will have a Democrat president elected in 2016. We shall see.
1) I don't think Romney OR Obama have put a great deal of of effort into "vying for the evangelical vote", though Romney clearly is polling stronger with them (the Billy Graham endorsement probably helped). In fact, I haven't really seen a RAT candidate "vying for the evangelical vote" since Jimmy Carter... unless you count that phony "repentance" tour Clinton went on during Monicagate where he did photo ops coming out of church with a huge bible and looking downtrodden and somber (nobody bought it though)
2) Most of these articles analyzing the "Christian vote" are in fact, analyzing born again evangelical protestants. The mainstream media also uses the two terms interchangably. This is rather ironic, since the vast majority of people who identify as "Christian" in America today AREN'T evangelical protestants (Catholics, mainline protestants, Orthodox, and various non-denominational Christians making up a significant share of Christians voters), but apparently the media and many freepers feel the only "Christians" that are worth discussing -- or even acknowledging the existence of -- are those evangelicals. Strange since born again protestant evangelicalism is hardly representative of the typical "Christian" theology you will find.
3) Am the only one who realizes America has ALREADY elected "non-Christian" Presidents before? Last time I checked, Thomas Jefferson was a deist and while he admired Jesus, he strictly denied his divinity and didn't believe any of the miracles mentioned in the Bible were true.
So, Forbes is out there with sub "behavior" machine measuring "many...Mormons" vs. "most...Christians" around the world and are able to input ALL moral/immoral based behavior and conclude this ridiculous assertion with ANY degree of accuracy?
And even if -- somehow -- this could be ascertained as so -- this ridiculous statement of: Many behave better than most Christians...Well, many Pharisees' behavior exceeded that of the early Christians...
How do we know that? Well, Jesus told us so...at least once...
"For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven." (Jesus, Matthew 5:20)
But...he clearly preached vs. the open hypocrisy of the legalistic Pharisees...and Mormons are perhaps the greatest legalists of our day today...
Matthew 23:27: Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean."
And earlier in that same chapter: 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.
* Matt. 15:9: But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
* Matt. 16:12: ...guard against the yeast...against the TEACHING of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
* Luke 11:52: ... you have taken away the key to knowledge.
* John 8:44,47: You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your fathers desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
Yup. Key point here...
Allow me to give an example from Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie: "And virtually all the millions of apostate Christendom have abased themselves before the mythical throne of a mythical Christ whom they vainly suppose to be a spirit essence who is incorporeal UNCREATED, immaterial and three-in-one with the Father and Holy Spirit" (Lds "apostle" Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, pg.269).
For the Mormon Jesus to be deemed as "uncreated" is nonsensical to them...hence, they label Jesus as a mere creature -- vs. THE CREATOR of all things and all beings (Colossians 1:15-17).
#1...You make the same mistake Obama & his Dem thugs make: They pretend they are running vs. Bush...
Sorry, but Romney isn't running vs. "plaything" Clinton.
#2... In the previous election cycle, when Romney gave the "faith of his fathers" speech Dec of 07 where he said he wouldn't "distance himself" from the faith of those Mormon fathers, ...Tim Russert asked Romney back then: Didnt you think, What am I doing part of an organization that is viewed by many as a racist organization? Russert asked. Im very proud of my faith, and its the faith of my fathers, Romney answered. And Im not going to distance myself from my faith in any way.
So you think that when a temple Mormon (about 15-20% of ALL Mormons) proclaim that they are a "god in embryo" ... that's "character" enhancement??? [See below the ****** for documentation]
(Or that when Romney earns $ from being a Board member for Marriott and its in-room porn industry earnings...that it's "moral"??? C'mon...even the Lds church-owned Deseret News critiqued Romney from that angle July of 2007)
Documentation on the nation's first potential "god" in the White House:
The truth is man is a child of God a God in embryo. Mitt Romney's father's cousin, Marion G. Romney one of the top three Lds hierarchists a generation ago...in Conference Report, April 1973, p. 136; or Ensign, July 1973, p. 14).
* "What is [man]? He had his being in the eternal worlds; he existed before he came here. He is not only the son of man, but he is the son of God also. He IS a God in embryo, and possesses within him a spark of that eternal flame..." (3rd "prophet" John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom, pp. 52-54, as cited in Teachings of the Presidents: John Taylor, p. 2, 2001 -- compiled & published by its "intellectual reserve" publishing trademark).
* "If we take man, he is said to have been made in the image of God...being his son, he is, of course, his offspring, an emanation from God...He...came forth possessing, in an embryonic state, ALL the faculties and powers of a God." (Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom, p. 52, as cited in Teachings of the Presidents: John Taylor, p. 3, 2001).
Many people know of Spencer W. Kimball, the 12th "prophet" of the Lds church (1973-1985), as the man who allowed blacks to become Mormon priests in 1978.
But did you know Mormonism teaches you are all "gods in embryo"??? (And Kimball was one of its key proponents)
Did you know that Mormonism teaches the false "gospel" of self-transformation -- of pulling yourself up by the bootstraps to become a god? (And Kimball was one of its key proponents)
Spencer W. Kimball on these very topics:
1969 "Being a GOD IN EMBRYO with the seeds of godhood neatly tucked away in him, and with the power to become a god eventually, man need not despair...he must...transform himself..." (Spencer W. Kimball, The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 173-174)
A couple he was advising in Kimball's office "did not understand that forgiveness is not a thing of days or months or even years but is a matter of intensity of feeling and transformation of self...This couple seemed to have no conception of satisfying the Lord, of paying the total penalties and obtaining a release..." (Ibid, p. 156)
To Kimball, you had to "pay the total penalties" for your sin -- vs. that being a role occupied by the true Jesus Christ.
September, 1974: Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be. It may be a long, hard lift with many obstacles, but it is a real possibility. Source: http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=6057 (Spencer W. Kimball speech entitled Be Ye Therefore Perfect 9/17/74 devotional address @ BYU)
1975: Man is created in the image of God. He is a GOD IN EMBRYO. He has the seeds of godhood within him, and he can, if he is normal, pick himself up by his bootstraps and literally move himself from where he is to where he shows he should be." Source: http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/LovevsLust.pdf, "Love vs. Lust," Spencer W. Kimball, Provo: BYU Publications, 1975
November 1977: Self-mastery, then, is the key, and every person should study his own life, his own desires and wants and cravings, and bring them under control. Man can transform himself and he must. Man has in himself the seeds of godhood, which can germinate and grow and develop. As the acorn becomes the oak, the mortal man becomes a god. It is within his power to lift himself by his very bootstraps from the plane on which he finds himself to the plane on which he should be. It may be a long, hard lift with many obstacles, but it is a real possibility. To be perfect, one can turn to many areas as a starting place....As we have stated before, the way to perfection seems to be a changing of ones lifeto substitute the good for the evil in every case. Source: By President Spencer W. Kimball An address given to students of Weber State College, Ogden, Utah on 4 November 1977 http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=244ed0640b96b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
July, 1978 Ensign Magazine: Lds church officially endorses Kimball Weber State College comments by publishing them in their official magazine
This quote also becomes part of Chapter 19 of what Lds officially teach college students in their Institute curricula: See http://institute.lds.org/manuals/doctrines-of-the-gospel-student-manual/doc-gosp-11-20-19.asp
Sorry, Mr. Flax, you are glossing over the real evil of Communism and Marxism. They deny the very existence of God, substitute the State for God, destroy organized religion and churches, and obliterate the worth of the individual and subsume it to the collective. These "isms" are pure evil.
This is where undocumented nonsense comes from posters like "bramps."
Well, temple Lds already think they ARE mini-gods..."gods in embryo"...documentation in post #34...
Secondly, there's a LOT more FR references to Obama's Muslim links than there are to Obama being supposedly a "god."
In fact, there's many NUMEROUS references -- and some documentation -- to link Obama with some sort of Muslim ties...while people who are "cute" and think they can proclaim Obama to be a "god" -- don't even bother to try to document that claim...
I mean, by all means, have at it!
But why else do I say the above then is complete "nonsense?"
Well, as I said, there's been THOUSANDS of FReeper references to Obama with some sort of Muslim ties...and THE most basic belief of Islam is that there is ONLY one God...vs. the polytheism of Mormonism...
So, bramps has turned this all of its head...and would have you believe that a Muslim-leaning POTUS believes in polytheism, and that Mormons only believe in future polytheism...but somehow embrace the bare monotheism that Islam embraces...
Sorry...but even the Mormon god that Mitt Romney might pray to from the White House was a mere man who died and wasn't God from eternity past...but got the "God job" from a "council of gods" who appointed him as such.
"Good luck" with that "god" listening/answering to the POTUS as he prays to him during the upcoming crises in the world...
It wouldn't surprise me if THE God simply abandoned this idolatrous nation.
The Bible shows that true successful leadership in public office is done by those who fear the true Lord & who do not worship false gods/idols. The OT is replete w/ such examples. The Israelites had secular kings, not "pastors in chief." But that didn't mean that these kings' ministrations were any less a "ministry." Romans 13 makes it clear that public office is also a "ministry." Those who contend against this are openly militating against this Scripture. It doesn't mean that public officeholders administrate in a parochial way; it just means that public office is a "ministry of service" just like the soup kitchen down the street. History (biblical & otherwise) shows that the more pagan or counterfeit god that a leader holds, the more trouble that leader's "exhaust" settles on the people-at-large. Kings & presidents need all the grace, mercy, & guidance possible, since God gets more credit for preserving & directing leaders than we care to give Him credit for. Therefore, one who worships a false god & has no true relationship w/the living God is stifling access to God's resources; & a nation may suffer for that.
When you are on an airplane that’s going down fast, you simply want someone who is able to fly the plane to safety, you don’t really care what religion the pilot has. The main concern is, can this person fly the airplane and get you safely home.
Yes, the theology of Mormonism is not orthodox Christianity, but I haven’t seen Romney pushing his faith on the people of Massachusetts, nor do I think he will with the United States as President.
Does he believe in our American values as expressed in the Declaration of Indpendence and does he intend to adhere to the Constitution of the United States? I believe he does and if so, then I have no problem with voting for him as president. I know that the alternative is opposite of our values and Constitution, so for me it’s a no-brainer.
(Then you'll love the Mormon "prophet" being the puppeteer of the guy in the White House)
|Lds Leader||Chronological 'Prophet' or Fundamental # (or Other Title)||Overlap Areas: Could the President of the U.S. become a 'puppet' to an Lds 'Prophet?' (The Lds Prophets -- in their own words)||By contrast: Roman Catholic leader (like a Pope or John F. Kennedy)||Any similar statements made by a Pope or Kennedy|
|Mitt Romney as POTUS???||Aside from above prophetic impositions, why would Mitt not only honor what these 'prophets' have spoken, but what a future Lds 'prophet' may tell him to do?||The Law of Consecration Oath Mitt Romney has sworn in the Mormon temple (done before marriage/sealing in temple): "You and each of you covenant and promise before God, angels, and these witnesses at this altar, that you do accept the law of consecration as contained in this, the book of Doctrine and Covenants [he displays the book], in that you do consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and EVERYTHING with which the Lord has blessed you, or WITH which he MAY bless you, to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion." Source: What is an LDS Church/Mormon temple marriage/sealing? [Q: Please define 'Zion': The LDS PR Web site (lds.org) defines its primary meaning: "membership in the [LDS] church."]||Kennedy made no similar vows to the Catholic church that Romney has made to the Mormon church||No comparative vow|
|John Taylor||Lds 'Prophet' #3||The Almighty has established this kingdom with order and laws and every thing pertaining thereto [so] that when the nations shall be convulsed, we may stand forth as saviours and finally redeem a ruined world, not only in a religious but in a political point of view. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 9, p. 342, April 13, 1862)||No parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes||No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence|
|John Taylor||Lds 'Prophet' #3||The LDS Church -- in 2001 -- thought it well to pull this quote from John Taylor to emphasize it: "The Lord...is desirous to show us how to save ourselves, how to bless ourselves temporally and spiritually, intellectually, morally, physically, POLITICALLY..." (Lds Church owned Deseret News, Nov. 19, 1865, p. 2, as quoted in Teachings of Presidents of the Church: John Taylor (2001, p. 178). Also from p. 178: "The idea of strictly religious feelings with us, and nothing else, is out of the question...Our religion is more comprehensive than that of the world...it embraces all the interests of humanity in every conceivable phrase..." (Original source: The Gospel Kingdom, 1943, p. 168)||No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes||No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence|
|Orson Hyde||President of the Lds Quorum of the 12 Apostles for 28 years (1847-1875)||What the world calls Mormonism will rule every nation...God has decreed it, and his own right arm will accomplish it. This will make the heathen rage. (Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 53)||No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic Vatican||No Pope in the past 150 years has made statements similar to Lds "prophets": Those who raise up this 'strawman' argue from silence|
|Heber J. Grant||Lds 'Prophet' #7||"Elder Marion G. Romney recalled the counsel of President Heber J. Grant: 'My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.' Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, 'But you don't need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray'" (in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78)." Cited in Official Lds publication Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, p. 209 (1984)||No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes|
|Harold B. Lee||Lds 'Prophet' #11||...President Harold B. Lee said: 'We must learn to give heed to the words and commandments that the Lord shall give through his prophet, '...as if from mine own mouth...(D&C 21:4-5)...You may not like what comes from the authority of the Church. It may contradict your political views. It may contradict your social views. It may interfere with some of your social life. But if you listen to these things, as if from the mouth of the Lord himself..." Cited in official Lds publication Remember Me: Relief Society Personal Study Guide I, p. 27 (1989)||No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes|
|Spencer Kimball||Lds 'Prophet' #12||"President Spencer W. Kimball said: '...We deal with many things which are thought to be not so spiritual; but all things are spiritual with the Lord, and he expects us to listen, and to obey..." (In Conference Report, Apr. 1977, p. 8; or Ensign, May 1977, p. 7) Cited in official Lds publication Come, Follow Me: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide 1983, p.12 (1983)||No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes|
|What about Marion G. Romney, cousin to Mitt's father?||Who was he in Lds hierarchy? (Title: 'President' - Top 3 of church as 2nd counselor to both #11 & #12 Lds 'prophets')||"Elder Neal A. Maxwell has said: 'Following the living prophets is something that must be done in all seasons and circumstances. We must be like President Marion G. Romney, who humbly said, '..I have never hesitated to follow the counsel of the Authorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional, and political life' (Conference Report, April 1941, p. 123). There are, or will be moments when prophetic declarations collide with our pride or our seeming personal interests...Do I believe in the living prophet even when he speaks on matters affecting me and my specialty directly? Or do I stop sustaining the prophet when his words fall in my territory? if the latter, the prophet is without honor in our country! (Things As They Really Are, p. 73). Cited in official Lds publication, Search the Commandments: Melchizedek Priesthood Personal Study Guide, pp. 275-276 (1984)||No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic Vatican|
|Ezra Taft Benson||Lds 'Prophet' #13||Benson speech given 2/26/80 @BYU. Summary: remember, if there is ever a conflict between earthly knowledge and the words of the prophet, you stand with the prophet (See excerpts re: 3 of 14 'fundamentals' below) Source: Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet||No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes|
|Benson (cont'd)||Fundamental #5||5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time. (My Q: Ya hear that Mitt Romney?)||No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes|
|Benson (cont'd)||Fundamental #9||9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual. (My Q: Still listening, Mitt?)||No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes|
|Benson (cont'd)||Fundamental #10||10. The prophet may advise on civic matters. (My Q: What say ye Mitt?)||No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic popes|
|B.H. Roberts||LDS Historian and Seventy. Note: Roberts was an elected Democratic Congressman from Utah in 1898 -- but was NEVER seated by Congress because of grass roots uproar vs. Roberts, who took a THIRD simultaneous wife in the early 1890s. Grass roots America collected 7 MILLION signatures on 28 banners and presented them to Congress...in pre-mass media 1800s!||[T]he kingdom of God... is to be a POLITICAL INSTITUTION THAT SHALL HOLD SWAY OVER ALL THE EARTH; TO WHICH ALL OTHER GOVERNMENTS WILL BE SUBORDINATE AND BY WHICH THEY WILL BE DOMINATED. The Rise and Fall of Nauvoo, 1900, p. 180||No contemporary parallel exists between Lds "prophets" and Roman Catholic Vatican|
Exactly...we live in a practical world...
And unless you live in a genuine swing state, your pragmatic vote for somebody like Romney in a blue state -- or against Obama in a red state -- won't effect the electoral outcome in about 40 states...
So vote for Virgil Goode if you don't live in a purple state...
...and even then, if you can't stand voting for either of the pro-aborts or either of the healthcare socialists or Mitt the "god in embryo"...
After all, pragmatism is something...but it's not the end all...