Posted on 11/07/2012 11:08:50 AM PST by RayBob
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years.”
Alexis de Tocqueville
The Chinese “civilization” has blossomed, collapsed, regenerated, and bloomed again through several cycles. But each cycle probably lasted, on average, about three or four times per millenium. The one thing that seemed to tie it together is the keeping of extensive records, by a civil service based on merit and recruited from all reaches of the extent of the various empires that were established.
“I’d really love for somebody to compile a list of “the world’s great civilizations,” with their starting and ending dates showing an average of 200 years.
The Chinese civilization is arguably at present around 3000 years old, the Japanese around 1500.
Rome lasted somewhere between 800 and 2000 years, depending on how you figure it.”
The keyword is “democracy”! Chinese and Japanese “civilizations” were never democracies!
The Roman democracy only lasted for 300+ years until it was destroyed by the establishment of the empire with its autocratic, imperial leaders.
Most Americans today don't even seem to understand what virtue is, much less endeavor to be virtuous.
Of course, our culture seems to be directed towards females these days. I guess we are learning what living in a matriarchal society is like.
“What makes you so sure THIS election wasn’t take by fraud??”
What makes you so sure that’s what I said? This was the FIRST of many window-dressing elections.
I believe that quote is from Alexander Fraser Tyler not deToqueville
http://famousquotessite.com/famous-quotes-6934-alexander-fraser-tyler-cycle-of-democracy-1770.html
Neal Boortz used to have this quote on his website years ago. He also said not to believe anything unless you personally verified it. I checked with the National Museum of Scotland and exchanged emails with the custodian of the Tytler collected works. He said it sounded more like a 20th century rant.
If you do a search for this quote the only place you will ever find it is on Conservative websites and blogs, never a link to a genuine passage from any speech or book by any author anywhere. It's bogus.
The next 10 to 12 months should prove revelatory.
>Neal Boortz used to have this quote on his website years ago. He also said not to believe anything unless you personally verified it. I checked with the National Museum of Scotland and exchanged emails with the custodian of the Tytler collected works. He said it sounded more like a 20th century rant.
If you do a search for this quote the only place you will ever find it is on Conservative websites and blogs, never a link to a genuine passage from any speech or book by any author anywhere. It's bogus.<
I agree with checking things out, and tell those who send me the often bogus emails, which carelessness makes us look bad. For those who do not known, in browsers like Firefox you can select (highlight) the text in a web page you can to search, then right click and chose "Search..."
WikieQuote states
Disputed
This quote sometimes appears joined with the above one, most notably as part of a longer piece which began circulating on the Internet shortly after the 2000 U.S. Presidential Election[5]:
A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
- From bondage to spiritual faith;
- From spiritual faith to great courage;
- From courage to liberty;
- From liberty to abundance;
- From abundance to complacency;
- From complacency to apathy;
- From apathy to dependence;
- From dependence back into bondage.
The quote referenced age of “great civilizations,” not of democracies.
However, the USA is the world’s oldest democracy, at 235 years or so. And there is a reasonable argument it didn’t become a true democracy till the 1960s.
Rome and Athens were never anything we would consider even a limited democracy. To get to 300 years for Roman “democracy,” even stretching various points, you have to go back to well before it was a “great civilization.” For most of the time is was “democratic” it was just one of many jostling city-states on the Italian peninsula.
There are no other democracies in history that have anything like 200 years under their belt. Republics, yes, but not democracies.
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
Nah. Ours has a built in 'reboot' option... Tho I would agree in as far as the time for a reboot is drawing perilously near.
A clarification. Rome became something resembling a democracy, if you squint and look at it sideways, around 290, and the democracy ended at the latest, IMO, in 83 when Sulla conquered the city.
After that the Romans still held elections, but the legions controlled actual power and made the final decisions.
So you can make a reasonable case for Roman democracy lasting about 200 years, even as a “great civilization.”
Of course, you have to recognize that for this entire period the “democracy” was a rule by a master race of Roman citizens over a vastly outnumbering mass of slaves and subjects. Giving it a good bit of similarity to the National Socialist ideal.
Quite true. We are in trouble when a huge proportion of the voters has no (in the words of Obama) “skin in the game.=”. Another writer, Theodore Dalrymple, wrote that a society that jettisons morality will always require a big government to rescue it from the consequences of its immorality. We are seeing that.
I am trying to be positive but at the moment I keep seeing in my mind a video I saw during the Cash for Clunkers program. It showed the death of a late-model luxury car deliberately sabotaged, valiantly struggling to keep running until it finally seizes up. I really hope that isn’t a harbinger of things to come for the nation.
Thanks. I wondered why I could never find that quote anywhere. It appears to be a mutt.
More elaboration or confusion here:
http://www.lorencollins.net/tytler.html
Most democrat voters have never heard of de Tocqueville, and democratic party leaders want to keep it that way, and so does the liberal press, and so do teachers and professors.
To have an electorate which is completely informed, would mean the end of the democratic party.
What I meant to say was the quote itself wasn’t in either Democracy in America I or II, but I think much of the sentiment expressed is.
I suspect Tocqueville would have agreed with the statement, were he given the opportunity.
There are other similar quotes floating around out there purportedly from Lincoln, Jefferson, etc. Often also “fake but accurate.”
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