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Excommunicated US priest laicized for public dissent on ordination of women
Life Site News ^ | 11/21/2012 | Thaddeus Baklinski

Posted on 11/23/2012 3:32:15 AM PST by IbJensen

MARYKNOLL, NY, November 21, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) - The Vatican’s Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has canonically dismissed Roy Bourgeois from the priesthood because of his public dissent from the Catholic Church’s teaching on the ordination of women. Bourgeois’ dismissal was announced by the Catholic Foreign Mission Society of America, also known as the Maryknoll Fathers and Brothers, in a Nov. 19 statement.

As a Maryknoll priest during 2008, Bourgeois participated in a mock ordination of a woman and a simulated Mass at a Unitarian church in Lexington, Kentucky. The radical feminist group Roman Catholic Womanpriests staged the ceremony.

Subsequently Bourgeois was given a “canonical warning” that his actions could result in his excommunication and expulsion from his religious order.

(Roy Bourgeois with two women who attempted to be ordained in the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church teaches that it does not have the authority to ordain women, and that any such ordinations are invalid.)

Bourgeois was given thirty days to recant his position, but instead he initiated a campaign against the Church, and published a letter insisting the Church was “wrong” on women’s ordination. “After much prayer, reflection and discernment, it is my conscience that compels me to do the right thing,” he wrote. “I cannot recant my belief and public statements that support the ordination of women in our Church.”

He went on to demand that “all Catholics, fellow priests, bishops, Pope Benedict XVI and all Church leaders at the Vatican ... speak loudly on this grave injustice of excluding women from the priesthood.”

The Vatican responded with a decree saying that any Catholic bishop who attempts the ordination of a woman or any woman who participates in such a ceremony, is subject to automatic excommunication.

This decree is backed up by the late Holy Father John Paul II’s 1994 Apostolic Letter, Ordinatio Sacerdotalis, in which he states, “In order that all doubt may be removed regarding a matter of great importance, ... I declare that the Church has no authority whatsoever to confer priestly ordination on women and that this judgment is to be definitively held by all the Church’s faithful.”

Bourgeois was excommunicated “Latae sententiae” (meaning “sentence already passed” or automatically) for not recanting his public stance supporting the ordination of women.

The Maryknoll statement says that while “the Holy See and the Maryknoll Society have encouraged his reconciliation with the Catholic Church,” the priest instead “chose to campaign against the teachings of the Catholic Church in secular and non-Catholic venues.”

“This was done without the permission of the local U.S. Catholic Bishops and while ignoring the sensitivities of the faithful across the country. Disobedience and preaching against the teaching of the Catholic Church about women’s ordination led to his excommunication, dismissal and laicization.”

Bourgeois, 74, called his expulsion from the priesthood and the Maryknoll order “very difficult and painful,” in a Nov. 20 statement published by the “Women’s Ordination Conference.”

“The Vatican and Maryknoll can dismiss me, but they cannot dismiss the issue of gender inequality in the Catholic Church,” the statement said. “The demand for gender equality is rooted in justice and dignity and will not go away.”

The Maryknoll Fathers’ statement says, “Mr. Bourgeois freely chose his views and actions, and all the members of the Maryknoll Society are saddened at the failure of reconciliation. With this parting, the Maryknoll Society warmly thanks Roy Bourgeois for his service to mission and all members wish him well in his personal life.

“In the spirit of equity and charity, Maryknoll will assist Mr. Bourgeois with this transition,” the Fathers conclude.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: bourgeois; heresy; maryknoll; vaticanii
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Maryknoll has been a disgrace for decades now and members no doubt believe that Vatican II was the signal to do your own thing without any recourse. In this they were not alone. The rest of the Church worldwide has engaged in disgraceful acts that would indicate the Church reconstituted to its position pre-Vatican II era would weed out the cafeteria Catholics. A smaller, more devout group of adherents is preferable to a gaggle of heretic modernists.

This unworthy troublemaker did his own thing for most of his years as a priest, and while his and Maryknoll's actions have not been pleasing to God, nor the post Vatican II Church, what would one expect? He should never have been ordained in the first place and it would appear that the only way the Catholic Church will again become catholic is to repute the evils promulgated by Vatican II.

I pray the Church will get itself in order before the Second Coming.

1 posted on 11/23/2012 3:32:30 AM PST by IbJensen
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To: IbJensen

When we have spineless Bishops and ones that disregard dogmatic teaching in lieu of “Social Justice” what do you expect. Chicago has Phlegher Maryknoll has Roy Bougeries (sp?) and the cycle continues.


2 posted on 11/23/2012 4:01:14 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: verga

Chicago has Phlegher .....

He should be next.


3 posted on 11/23/2012 4:10:13 AM PST by FES0844
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To: IbJensen
I believe the statement opened with "qui mortuus est et constituit vobis Papa?"
4 posted on 11/23/2012 4:55:01 AM PST by NonValueAdded ("Our president ... makes big speeches packed full of little ideas" Charles C. W. Cooke)
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To: NonValueAdded
LOL

CC

5 posted on 11/23/2012 6:16:43 AM PST by Celtic Conservative (who, me??)
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To: IbJensen

>any Catholic bishop who attempts the ordination of a woman or any woman who participates in such a ceremony, is subject to automatic excommunication.

What exactly is the problem with a female holding the job title that a male holds? Does it involve muscular physical labor that a woman can’t physically perform on average?

Serious question.


6 posted on 11/23/2012 6:26:36 AM PST by soycd
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To: soycd

The problem is that a woman cannot be ordained. There’s no way to ordain a woman. The Church has no power ordain women. Jesus and the Church never did it and won’t do it now.


7 posted on 11/23/2012 6:35:15 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: soycd
Ok, here's a serious answer:

In the Catholic Church, the central focus and purpose of the service is not the preaching (as in many other churches) but the Eucharist.

And Catholics believe that in the Mass, through the actions of the priest standing in the shoes of Christ ("alter Christi"), the bread and wine become the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ Himself, for the benefit of His Bride, the Church.

So there's a profound ontological problem with a woman taking on that role.She cannot be a bridegroom, no matter how badly she wants to.

8 posted on 11/23/2012 6:37:25 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: vladimir998

Jesus never did it because societal norms and laws of the time of Jesus wouldn’t allow.

That has nothing to do with God.

And Paul’s obvious disdain for women aside, Paul was not a writer of rules as he was not a Christian until after Jesus was in heaven.


9 posted on 11/23/2012 6:43:54 AM PST by autumnraine (America how long will you be so deaf and dumb to the tumbril wheels carrying you to the guillotine?)
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To: vladimir998

Honestly, Jesus never drove a car either. Are you sinning if you aren’t Amish?


10 posted on 11/23/2012 6:44:35 AM PST by autumnraine (America how long will you be so deaf and dumb to the tumbril wheels carrying you to the guillotine?)
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To: soycd

If you have to ask the question, you wouldn’t understand the answer.


11 posted on 11/23/2012 6:49:03 AM PST by Venturer
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Comment #12 Removed by Moderator

To: autumnraine
And Jesus had SO much concern for societal norms, you know, consorting with tax collectors and prostitutes, and flouting the Pharasaical laws, and calling the powers that be a den of vipers and whited sepulchres . . . and dying a shameful death as a criminal. . . .

He did exactly what He intended.

13 posted on 11/23/2012 6:52:14 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: soycd
What exactly is the problem with a female holding the job title that a male holds? Does it involve muscular physical labor that a woman can’t physically perform on average?

Serious question.

Serious answer: ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS

14 posted on 11/23/2012 6:52:14 AM PST by COBOL2Java (The GOP-e said "Beat a Marxist with a Liberal!" What a colossal blunder.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

Having compassion for those ‘trapped in sin’ is not the same as placing a woman in a dangerous position by supporting her as the head of a church.

In those days (as in some current nations), that kind of talk and thinking would get the woman killed.


15 posted on 11/23/2012 6:57:05 AM PST by autumnraine (America how long will you be so deaf and dumb to the tumbril wheels carrying you to the guillotine?)
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To: autumnraine

You wrote:

“Jesus never did it because societal norms and laws of the time of Jesus wouldn’t allow.”

False. Jesus’ spiritual plan was not bound by any societal norm. He was forbidden by societal norms from talking to Samaritan women - yet He did so at the well.

“That has nothing to do with God.”

Jesus is God. It, therefore, has everything to do with God.

“And Paul’s obvious disdain for women aside,”

There was no disdain. St. Paul clearly admired women: Prisca, Phoebe, Mary, Junia, Julia, Tryphaena and Tryphosa,
Euodia and Syntyche, Chloe, Lydia.

“Paul was not a writer of rules as he was not a Christian until after Jesus was in heaven.”

Jesus founded the Church, not Paul. Paul passed on what was revealed to him.


16 posted on 11/23/2012 7:19:06 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: autumnraine

You wrote:

“Honestly, Jesus never drove a car either. Are you sinning if you aren’t Amish?”

Driving a car is not a spiritual matter and has nothing to do with the work of God in any way. Feel free to keep making silly and unrelated analogies. That’s what liberals like you do.


17 posted on 11/23/2012 7:21:31 AM PST by vladimir998
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To: Howdyneighbor

Painting with a pretty broad brush, aren’t we?


18 posted on 11/23/2012 7:22:31 AM PST by GalaxyAB
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To: autumnraine
"In those days (as in some current nations), that kind of talk and thinking would get the woman killed."

St. Peter's wife died a martyr. Just being a Christian was enough....sex didn't matter, nor did being "head of a church".

But the simple fact is that JC set it up with an all-male priesthood. There is no biblical support (or for Catholics, biblical OR traditional support) for a female priesthood. There "is" such support for female deacons (deaconesses), though there are none today, AFAIK. THAT could legitimately be changed. Female priests....no.

The Church obviously has no problem with women being in positions of power (as many nuns and other female religious) have shown throughout history.

19 posted on 11/23/2012 7:32:09 AM PST by Wonder Warthog
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To: verga

Apart from theological reasons, just look at the sort of folks who want to be ‘women priests’ in the Catholic Church. These are all super-libs into everything orthodox Christianity isn’t—try to find one woman who wants to be a priestess who also thinks abortion and ‘gay marriage’ is wrong. They can’t even bring themselves to use the right term, and come up with meaningless words like ‘woman priest,’ which is like saying ‘man priestess.’

Freegards


20 posted on 11/23/2012 7:39:48 AM PST by Ransomed
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To: GalaxyAB

If the majority of women voted Obama then no I think not sir.


21 posted on 11/23/2012 7:43:06 AM PST by Howdyneighbor
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To: soycd
This may be difficult for you to understand.

The priest is actually offering a 'sacrifice' albeit unbloody it's still sacrificial. Women shouldn't concern themselves with standing on an altar sacrificing.

Jesus Christ chose as his diciples, as well as the leader he left behind to continue his Church on earth, all men. There was, of course, a reason for this as these single men would devote their lives to sacrifice, even death, to spread the gospel of Jesus.

Priests today are to follow that example and devote their lives to Jesus Christ and to their parishoners. Their role in the priestly life is to set an example for others and not allow their minds to dwell on filthy things like fondling little children. Those priests are destined to spend an eternity in hell after they get that millstone from around their necks.

Women have a different role in a proper society.

They are to bear and rear children, unless they too have entered Church life as a nun, and provide the warmth and comfort that a family deserves in a Christian home.

The sin today is that women want to dress like men and do men things like fighting a faceless enemy in a trench on the front lines. There is something radically wrong with this. A nation that puts their women in combat situations isn't worth defending.

Speaking of defending. We haven't defended our nation for what seems to be like eons.

I realize this is a rather lengthy discourse on your wishing politically correct feminine things on the Catholic Church.

Next week I'll talk to you about why condoms, wanking, abortion, pornography and homosexuality are not good things.

22 posted on 11/23/2012 7:47:10 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: COBOL2Java

Thank you.

They could have saved a few bytes or ink and just said: “Because we say so.” or “So it is written, so it shall be done.”

This is one of those cases where logic holds no sway.


23 posted on 11/23/2012 7:52:14 AM PST by soycd
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To: IbJensen

Compromise is the welcome mat to deception.


24 posted on 11/23/2012 8:00:46 AM PST by CityCenter (Compromise is the welcome mat to deception.)
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To: IbJensen

First, thanks for your outlook on why a mental job is only performed by men.

Second...
>rather lengthy discourse on your wishing politically correct feminine things on the Catholic Church.

Sorry, I asked a question, I have no PC desires or any other BS you wish to inject into my words.

Of course women have no role in trench combat or in battle conditions. All the other strawmen crap having nothing to do with my question deserves no response.

If you don’t think a Nun has devoted all of herself to the Church then I can’t help you.


25 posted on 11/23/2012 8:01:23 AM PST by soycd
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To: IbJensen

Please DO let the door hit you on the way out...


26 posted on 11/23/2012 8:02:52 AM PST by rhinohunter
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To: soycd

Sorry you didn’t take the time to actually read it. You seem to think it needs to be boiled down to a cute catch phrase like “Because we say so” or “So it is written, so it shall be done.” Actually if you feel the need to “save a few bytes of ink” I suppose one could trivialize it to “we do not have the authority”.


27 posted on 11/23/2012 8:04:05 AM PST by COBOL2Java (The GOP-e said "Beat a Marxist with a Liberal!" What a colossal blunder.)
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To: soycd

I agree. There is no way you could me with this issue or anything else. Your mind is interesting, however.

Now stay away from me as I don’t care to engage in an intellectual discourse with someone so obviously incapable.


28 posted on 11/23/2012 8:05:04 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: rhinohunter

My thread. Get off....or else you’ll be held in contempt.

Go join a church where the ‘preacher’ is female.


29 posted on 11/23/2012 8:34:05 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: IbJensen
My thread. Get off....or else you’ll be held in contempt.

No, Ib, you POSTED a thread on JimRob's forum. It is open for discussion, since that is what we do.

It is contempuous for anyone to think otherwise.

That said, tho never part of the largest cult in the world, dedicated to the idea that it holds the ONLY KEYS to Heaven's Gate, I disagree vehemently. I got mine directly from the owner!

Claiming to be the only arbiter of faith makes your group a cult, and I know you will disagree. BUT, I also have an opinion, not based on what my groups Catechism taught me, but based on Scripture. Of course your response would be "NO Sola Scripture".

I am positive their are many good Christians within the RCC group. But, God may have given Peter the keys, but he apparently loaned them to a bunch of hypocrites! For examples, study RCC history of their alleged infallibility"! If your group was truly led by Christ, there would be no great stores of gold and riches. History does not need any of them! They will all burn at the end, in the refinery!

I will pray for the RCC to get right with God. I will welcome your prayers, as well, but I am assured of my salvation. I believe in Christ's sacrifice having been made for any believer, not just being allowed by some guys in elegant gowns touting that they can refuse my right to get some bread or wine in remembrance of our Savior.

There are too many things y'all are willing to overlook within God's Word... and blindly accept it because that is all you were taught. I can give another example of that, but at least your group doesn't promise a bunch of virgins for jihad results (think BOOM!).

John 3:16 says it all! Paul spoke to the Roman church long ago, and noted their PRIDE in their spirituality.

Romans 2:1 You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge another, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. 2 Now we know that God’s judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. 3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment? 4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, forbearance and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness is intended to lead you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”[a] 7 To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8 But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.


30 posted on 11/23/2012 8:59:35 AM PST by WVKayaker ("Mitt Romney couldn't keep up with lies and spin of Barack Obama" - Sarah Palin 10/24)
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To: NYer; SumProVita; Salvation; netmilsmom; thefrankbaum; Tax-chick; GregB; saradippity; ...

Ping. Interesting thread and discussions.


31 posted on 11/23/2012 9:24:55 AM PST by COBOL2Java (The GOP-e said "Beat a Marxist with a Liberal!" What a colossal blunder.)
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To: autumnraine

autumnraine: “Jesus never did it because societal norms and laws of the time of Jesus wouldn’t allow.”

You’re seriously going to claim that Christ, who was crucified for repeatedly challenging the establishment’s religious rules, wasn’t daring enough to stand up to the “societal norms and laws of the time” concerning women? Do you realize just how nonsensical that is?


32 posted on 11/23/2012 9:48:43 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: AnAmericanMother

AnAmericanMother: “He did exactly what He intended.”

I see you beat me to it. Yes. You’re absolutely right, except I’d modify your statement to say Christ did what God the Father wanted. Christ made it quite clear He was following God’s will. It’s a minor distinction, because Christ and God have complete unity of purpose, but it’s a distinction Christ Himself made.


33 posted on 11/23/2012 9:55:21 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: autumnraine

autumnraine: “In those days (as in some current nations), that kind of talk and thinking would get the woman killed.”

LOL. Seriously. Christ and most of the apostles were brutally killed for the faith, but Christ, who repeatedly bucked the norms of His time, didn’t pick women out of concern for their safety?


34 posted on 11/23/2012 9:59:37 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: vladimir998

Odd isn’t it, that many who criticize the RC Church for minimizing the role of women are the same who accuse the RC Church of worshiping Mary...


35 posted on 11/23/2012 10:03:24 AM PST by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: COBOL2Java

COBOL2Java: “I suppose one could trivialize it to “we do not have the authority”.”

Actually, that sums it up perfectly. If someone claims to be a Christian, then they’re obligated to follow Christ’s teachings. I, personally, have no problem with women in leadership positions. I have worked (secular jobs) for women in the past and would have no problem doing so again. However, my feelings about the matter are irrelevant to the discussion. The only thing that matters is what Christ said, including the things He taught the apostles which they subsequently shared with us in their writings. I simply have no authority whatsoever to change that.


36 posted on 11/23/2012 10:07:46 AM PST by CitizenUSA (Why celebrate evil? Evil is easy. Good is the goal worth striving for.)
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To: WVKayaker

All that blather directed against Roman Catholics is nothing but sophomoric rant.

Go start a thread of your own that’s against the Church to which I belong and believe in.

Go kayaking.


37 posted on 11/23/2012 10:24:12 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: autumnraine
And all those female martyrs didn't get killed?

They weren't in the Apostolic Succession, but that didn't stop the persecutions or the martyrdoms.

And Christ knew that. "Take up thy Cross, and follow me."

38 posted on 11/23/2012 10:29:58 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: autumnraine
And all those female martyrs didn't get killed?

They weren't in the Apostolic Succession, but that didn't stop the persecutions or the martyrdoms.

And Christ knew that. "Take up thy Cross, and follow me."

39 posted on 11/23/2012 10:30:03 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: WVKayaker

Oh, and another thing, Kayaker.

For the privilege of using Mr. Robinson’s website I pay twice annually.

How much have you contributed since you first signed on and established your handle and password?


40 posted on 11/23/2012 10:30:33 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: WVKayaker
Sigh.

You just really don't get it, do you? Run along and play in a low head dam, or something, and let the grownups talk.

41 posted on 11/23/2012 10:32:24 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGS Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
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To: soycd
What exactly is the problem with a female holding the job title that a male holds? Does it involve muscular physical labor that a woman can’t physically perform on average? Serious question.

Catholics view Ordination as a Sacrament. sacraments are dogmatic practices established by Christ to draw us closer to Him. In order for a Sacrament to be valid you must have the proper form and use the proper order. The Form refers to the substance (material) and the order refers to the method. While it is possible to use the proper order (Proper prayers etc...) for a female "ordination" they lack the proper form. They are not male. Christ established this by ordaining only men.

42 posted on 11/23/2012 10:41:01 AM PST by verga (A nation divided by Zero!)
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To: IbJensen
All that blather directed against Roman Catholics is nothing but sophomoric rant.

Yada yada yada... I don't need to start anything. You posted what I consider ignorance, I responded with my opinion. We all have one, you know! God can be my Judge.

Truth was spoken here, according to MY Bible, thanks! I directed the comments about the Roman Catholic Church. Any members that love God, our Redeemer, are brethren (and sisteren ) of mine. If you wish to debate me with an actual Scriptural basis, take a number. I'm sorry your feelings may be hurt (not!).

You can study your catechism all you wish, but it won't get you through the Pearly Gates! If you attend services 14 times a week, it won't open those gates. If you go into your closet to pray, then there may be hope for you.

Only the Blood shed on the cross accomplishes that. Study the role of "Goel" and thank God, not your elegantly attired priests! I am one of Christ's kinsmen, chosen by Him, grafted like a tree limb. You can join us, or continue to blindly listen to your teachers. Being part of an organization is no security.

You are welcome to be an exception!

On a final note, I have already been paddling this morning... but thanks for the encouragement! I'll be back on the water tomorrow. At 65, it is a simple pleasure.


43 posted on 11/23/2012 10:47:48 AM PST by WVKayaker ("Mitt Romney couldn't keep up with lies and spin of Barack Obama" - Sarah Palin 10/24)
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To: IbJensen
For the privilege of using Mr. Robinson’s website I pay twice annually. How much have you contributed since you first signed on and established your handle and password?

I didn't know it was any of your business, but you are welcome to check the list of MONTHLY's! There is NO REQUIREMENT to give anything...

Is that all you can come back with? I guess the truth IS difficult to refute... so deflection may work with some! But, not here!


44 posted on 11/23/2012 10:55:18 AM PST by WVKayaker ("Mitt Romney couldn't keep up with lies and spin of Barack Obama" - Sarah Palin 10/24)
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To: AnAmericanMother
You just really don't get it, do you? Run along and play in a low head dam, or something, and let the grownups talk.

See my #41 for reference, and as for grownups, I see many childish postings of bigoted nonsense to me, and absolutely nothing of facts!


45 posted on 11/23/2012 10:59:49 AM PST by WVKayaker ("Mitt Romney couldn't keep up with lies and spin of Barack Obama" - Sarah Palin 10/24)
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To: WVKayaker

Which one is you?


46 posted on 11/23/2012 12:36:14 PM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: WVKayaker

At 65 you’re still getting paddled?


47 posted on 11/23/2012 12:38:10 PM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: IbJensen

48 posted on 11/23/2012 12:40:37 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: IbJensen
Which one is you?

Your replies again show your lack of a reasoned argument. It is difficult to accept truth, when all you know is what you learned in Sunday School, and grew up with the horrible thought of excommunication, should you think for yourself. Your church even withheld the Scriptures from the common parishioner until forced in the last century, preferring the Latin Vulgate over the lingua franca.

I'm apparently the ONLY grownup in this conversation... and I'm trying patiently to be a guide. As for being paddled, you continue to show your puerile streak and lack of intellectual response!

Romans 8: 31 What, then, shall we say in response to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son, but gave him up for us all—how will he not also, along with him, graciously give us all things? 33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 34 Who then is the one who condemns? No one. Christ Jesus who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. 35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall trouble or hardship or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword? 36 As it is written:

“For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”

37 No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. 38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

49 posted on 11/23/2012 1:02:50 PM PST by WVKayaker ("Mitt Romney couldn't keep up with lies and spin of Barack Obama" - Sarah Palin 10/24)
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