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British violent crime 4 times that in the US.
The Telegraph ^ | 02 Jul 2009 | Richard Edwards

Posted on 12/20/2012 1:24:36 PM PST by Fido969

... there are over 2,000 crimes recorded per 100,000 population in the UK, making it the most violent place in Europe.

By comparison, America has an estimated rate of 466 violent crimes per 100,000 population.

(Excerpt) Read more at telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Extended News; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: 2a; banglist; britain; cnn; crime; crimerate; guncontrol; murder; murderrate; piersmorgan; secondamendment; uk; violence
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To: Fido969; yefragetuwrabrumuy; ClearCase_guy; KeyLargo; JPG; tophat9000; PeteB570; Veto!; ...

Before everyone starts sneering at the violent Brits and cancelling their holidays to London or Scotland, let me point out one big fact about these figures.

The UK has TWENTY EIGHT violent offences on their various statute books. To take a boat out in dangerous weather against the crew’s wishes is classed as assault against the person in the UK. I kid you not.

The UK therefore has far more violent offences on their books than the United States, and that completely changes any comparison, in fact it arguably renders it useless, certainly wholesale comparisons.

Of course the UK is going to look more violent if it has 2, 3, 4, 6 times the amount of violent offences on the statute books....

Yes, the UK is more violent than it once was, but there are another two facts again missing:

1—Most UK violent crimes are NOT against the person, but property. 2—The UK historically has had a very low rate of crime, minor or serious. Any rise has to be seen in that context.

Famously, LESS people died as a result of the 25 yrs of irish terrorism (IRA, UVF etc) in both NI and the British mainland than were murdered in single US cities like Detroit, NY or Chicago!.

Britain is still a safe country to live in. Common sense will tell you this, as it will that the UK is not ‘far more violent’ than the USA, Canada, France etc. Safer than 1970 or 1990?. No. But neither is it the violent hellhole these distorted figures show.

Let me end with these figures:

The US has a gun crime usage rate FORTY TIMES that of the UK (400,000 vs 10,000 in 2010).

The US has a gun murder rate SIXTEEN times that of the UK (15,000 vs 900).

75% of all serial killers live in the US (not my words, those of Robert Ressler)

The US murder rate is almost THREE times that of the UK (4.2 vs 1.2).

EVEN IF EXTRAPOLATED BY FIVE TO EQUAL BOTH POPULATIONS (300M VS 300M), the US gun crime rate would STILL be EIGHT times higher, and the gun murder rate would still be over THREE TIMES higher than the UK. And the US would still have the vast majority of the serial killers, as British serial killers are a tiny minority.

The rate of people killed by guns in the US is 19.5 times higher than similar high-income countries in the world.


51 posted on 12/21/2012 8:14:01 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: KeyLargo

Yes, there have been minor calls for banning certain knives, but nobody takes them seriously. Even the PC last Labour govt ignored such calls.

Kitchen knives etc are not banned in the UK. Nor will they ever be.


52 posted on 12/21/2012 8:17:10 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: Responsibility2nd

No, they didnt.
Thats a myth.

Assault rifles and most handguns are banned on the mainland. Rifles and shotguns are legal all over the UK. Handguns (and carry and conceal) are legal in Northern Ireland.


53 posted on 12/21/2012 8:19:43 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: BobL

Not this crap again.


54 posted on 12/21/2012 8:21:29 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: Eleutheria5

Read my replies to the others, I forgot to add you.


55 posted on 12/21/2012 8:22:23 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: the scotsman

Shouldn’t you be posting on Democrat ‘Dummy’ Underground?

Every friend of mine that has visited the UK in the last four years has said that all they heard was how hated President Bush was in the UK.


56 posted on 12/21/2012 8:25:56 AM PST by KeyLargo
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To: gusty

‘Remind Brit commentators that Northern Ireland is a part of the United Kingdom. How did gun control measures work there?’

And we will remind American commentators of the fact that less people died as a result of terrorism in NI (in fact NI and the British mainland) by all terror groups in the 25 years of the ‘The Troubles’ than were murdered in just ONE american city in just ONE year (such as Detroit, NY Chicago)....

Anyhow, another UK poster has already explained the NI gun laws.


57 posted on 12/21/2012 8:26:48 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: the scotsman

Not crap, just a decision made by your leadership. It may turn out quite peaceful, in the end - although that, unfortunately, isn’t the case usually - especially in the countries (and territories) that have already transitioned.

But you can take solace in Belgium beating you there, and maybe France. So there will trailblazers to learn from, and it may go well.

I do wish you guys luck.


58 posted on 12/21/2012 8:28:07 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: GVnana

Nope.

Poor article by a journalist who doesnt even know how his own country’s crime statistics are compiled and what constitutes violent crime in his own nation.


59 posted on 12/21/2012 8:28:13 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: KeyLargo

Are you going to actually respond to my points, or are you going to try and accuse me of being a liberal?.


60 posted on 12/21/2012 8:30:15 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: KeyLargo

Why?. Because I mention guns?. I am pro-guns, and pro-2nd. Also very pro-American and pro-Republican. I am a gun owning UK conservative and Eurosceptic.

I am merely responding using the figures regarding UK and US violence.

Keep your guns, get rid of them, I dont care. Its your choice. But I will step in where MY country’s violence is being debated and distorted.


61 posted on 12/21/2012 8:33:09 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: BobL

Bob, 96% of the UK is NOT Muslim. And parts of the UK like Scotland, Wales and NI are even less (0.16% are Muslim in Scotland). And the UK govt is RESTRICTING immigration.

We are not and are not being taken over, conquered, dhimmied etc.


62 posted on 12/21/2012 8:35:20 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: the scotsman

scotsman, can you give us some insight as to what you are seeing in your large cities regarding real violent crime (not going out on a boat), gangs, guns etc. Thanks.


63 posted on 12/21/2012 8:38:09 AM PST by roofgoat
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To: the scotsman

I’m not going to beat up on the Brits.

Remove all the urban areas from the world and the global crime rate will fall to under 10%.


64 posted on 12/21/2012 8:42:55 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: the scotsman

“We are not and are not being taken over, conquered, dhimmied etc.”

The transitions always start slow - but it’s the trending that matters and how the natives handle it all. The last time I checked, you have Sharia zones in some neighborhoods. That’s not good. And don’t forget the birthrates and immigration rates. Finally, it’s not me saying this will happen, it’s your own Imams saying it...and they usually mean what they say.


65 posted on 12/21/2012 8:46:04 AM PST by BobL (Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21...Agenda 21... (whatever the hell that is))
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To: the scotsman
I worked in Detroit for many years. I would tell people that the murder rate in Detroit was about 25 times that of Northern Ireland at the peak of the troubles there. People didn't believe me. They saw media stories about killing etc in Northern Ireland and positive developments in Detroit.

However, the murder rate in Detroit was several hundred times higher than most of the other cities in Michigan.

Violent crime in America is limited to certain areas. The vast majority of Americans are honest and law abiding. People who want gun control and other government control ignore the fact that most Americans are not violent.

Chicago has had about 450 children shot so far this year. Chicago has extremely strict gun control probably similar if not stricter than Britain.

No one in government proposes any solutions other than more bureaucracy and more government control of honest law abiding citizens. No one in authority proposes actually cracking down on actual violent criminals.

66 posted on 12/21/2012 9:07:46 AM PST by detective
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To: the scotsman; All
The UK therefore has far more violent offences on their books than the United States, and that completely changes any comparison, in fact it arguably renders it useless, certainly wholesale comparisons. Of course the UK is going to look more violent if it has 2, 3, 4, 6 times the amount of violent offences on the statute books...
If so, then the multitude of homosexuals in Scotland are driving the numbers up, all kinds of numbers. Yea - cancel that vacation to Scotland!

Gay men in Scotland are nearly eight times more likely to have attempted suicide in the past year

67 posted on 12/21/2012 9:10:35 AM PST by Berlin_Freeper
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To: Fido969

BTT


68 posted on 12/21/2012 9:12:23 AM PST by AuntB (Illegal immigration is simply more "share the wealth" socialism and a CRIME not a race!)
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To: the scotsman

FYI

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-25671/Violent-crime-worse-Britain-US.html


69 posted on 12/21/2012 9:18:14 AM PST by detective
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To: the scotsman

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html


70 posted on 12/21/2012 9:24:04 AM PST by detective
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To: detective

‘The vast majority of Americans are honest and law abiding’

I agree. Please dont think I am saying or think Americans are all violent savages.


71 posted on 12/21/2012 9:31:46 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: detective

I have explained WHY the UK looks on paper to be the most violent Western nation.


72 posted on 12/21/2012 9:32:44 AM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: the scotsman

And if the black, male, teenage gun homicide rate were removed from US statistics, our male, teenage gun homicide rate would be about the same as Switzerland’s.

The REAL tragedy is that a lot of those homicides are committed by blacks against their neighbors.


73 posted on 12/21/2012 9:52:31 AM PST by Sigurdrifta
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To: detective

LOL, I’m sorry, I stopped taking your links seriously when I read that South Africa has a lower violent crime rate than Britain.


74 posted on 12/21/2012 9:54:08 AM PST by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: the scotsman
All of which is pretty but far from the truth. If you compare Americans of substantially English origin against English of substantially English origin, the Americans are less violent ~ no matter how you categorize it, or how many crimes are on the books.

We can do that ethnicity by ethnicity, right on down through Ibo in Nigeria, and Chinese from Shanghai, or from Canton, or Overseas Chinese.

Then there are the Japanese Americans ~ one criminal in nearly a century!

75 posted on 12/21/2012 10:29:55 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: detective
Seriously, virtually ALL of the violent crime in America is commited by Democrats, and against Democrats.

The Democrat party, though, claims that only by disarming the Republicans will they be safe.

76 posted on 12/21/2012 10:34:04 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan
“I stopped taking your links seriously”

These are articles in British newspapers that cite studies by British “experts” and and quotes from British public figures. I don’t know if the articles are accurate or not. I just wanted to show you what your countrymen are saying.

There are many more articles in British publications that say essentially the same thing.

77 posted on 12/21/2012 10:34:08 AM PST by detective
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To: Neidermeyer
Sold nationwide in Kmart, Radio Shack and Home Depot!

Is there someone who can't find electrical ties

78 posted on 12/21/2012 10:41:57 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: muawiyah
450 children shot so far this year in Chicago and not a word out of the MSM or the politicians.

20 children shot in Connecticutt and the politicians and MSM won't shut up.

We are subject to the constant repetition of the lie that America is bad, that it is the fault of law abiding people and that all gun owners are violent crazies.

All law abiding citizens are accused of not caring about children or wanting to kill children if they disagree with any proposal for more government control.

79 posted on 12/21/2012 10:43:33 AM PST by detective
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To: Sigurdrifta
Americans of Swiss descent have a lower gun homicide rate than Swiss living in Switzerland.

It's that way all across the board. Americans of any particular ethnicity are less violent than their kin back in the old homeland.

80 posted on 12/21/2012 10:48:42 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

South Africa is one of those places you have to count ethnicity by ethnicity, and be sure to leave out the INDEPENDENT COUNTRIES inside its borders.


81 posted on 12/21/2012 10:50:24 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: detective
Here's the way to compare these places ~ just this year nearly 500 Chicago children have been shot, many of them in mass killings. At the same time Newtown CT hasn't had a mass killing since the Pequot War 370 years ago!

So, it's not 20 kids per annum, it's 1/18 of a kid per year in Newtown. Chicago's annual rate is nearly 500 ~ or somewhere between 2000X and 9000X as high as that of Newtown!

Obamugabe wants you to keep focused on Newtown

82 posted on 12/21/2012 10:57:00 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: the scotsman
Before everyone starts sneering at the violent Brits and cancelling their holidays to London or Scotland, let me point out one big fact about these figures.

No one is sneering. Gasping in astonishment maybe.

.To take a boat out in dangerous weather against the crew’s wishes is classed as assault against the person in the UK.

Well yeah. I would be very surprised to learn that kind of behavior would NOT be a crime in the US.

The UK has TWENTY EIGHT violent offences on their various statute books

So...care to guess how many in the 50 states?

It would make an interesting comparison, but you don't have one.

On the very same page as this article there are links to stories related to the killing of two unarmed cops in Manchester. Britcop1
The two unarmed police constables killed attending a 'routine incident' have been named by Greater Manchester Chief Constable Sir Peter Fahey as Fiona Bone, 32, and Nicola Hughes, 23 [pictured above]. Sir Peter paid tribute to Miss Hughes, describing her as a 'chatterbox' and a 'great bobby' who was 'always smiling'.

Fiona-Bone_2343462k
Sir Peter said Miss Bone was a calm, gentle woman, an excellent bobby and had been in the middle of planning her wedding.

cregan-one-eye1
One of the country's most wanted men is believed to have lured the two unarmed female constables to their deaths. Dale Cregan is thought to have made a bogus burglary report then attacked the officers, opening fire with a gun and a grenade.

Eyewitnesses said a hail of bullets was fired and a grenade was thrown during the attack in Hattersley, Greater Manchester, shortly before 11am. One of the officers died at the scene. The second was critically injured and died later."

We learn that Cregan is wanted and on the loose for two other murders involving guns and explosives:

Cregan, pictured above, had been the subject of a huge manhunt after the murders of David Short, 46, and his son Mark, 23. A £50,000 reward had been offered for information leading to his arrest.

A one-eyed man is at the centre of a manhunt after a grieving father was brutally executed just weeks after his son was shot dead.

David Short, 47, was gunned down at his terraced home in Clayton, Manchester, after branding as 'cowards' the killers of his 23-year-old son Mark.

There was an explosion at the house caused by a grenade and within minutes there was another grenade attack and shots reportedly fired at a property in Droylsden, east of the city.

The shooting and grenade attacks happened as two men appeared in court charged with Mark's murder. He was blasted to death 10 weeks ago while playing pool with his friends in a crowded pub.

Yesterday his father was shot dead by two masked men just yards from where children were playing in a park.

The gunmen were seen running from the house after neighbours heard shots.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2186664/Dale-Cregan-Manchester-Hunt-eyed-suspect-grieving-father-killed-gangland-hit.html#ixzz2Fi01pu6N

We could talk a lot about the differences between us, but we would be dealing with a lot of impressions and emotions.

My impressions? If this string of crimes had happened in the US, we would be asking "Why?" and "Where did we go wrong?"

I never see that in the discussion of British crimes. I find most Brits to be appallingly apathetic on the subject. It's as if the matter was closed, you have your solutions, and nothing more can be done.

You have unarmed cops shot to death, a young man blown-up inside a pub, and his father shot to death in a home invasion.

Pardon me if I don't look to you for solutions.

83 posted on 12/21/2012 11:06:42 AM PST by GVnana
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To: GVnana

For the record, Cregan is not still on the loose. He walked into a police station and surrendered himself an hour after the officers were killed.


84 posted on 12/21/2012 11:14:15 AM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: the scotsman

Mexico, Brazil, Columbia and Venezuela have all had more firearms deaths than the US, and all have a fraction of the guns per capita. Switzerland, Serbia, Finland, Cypress, Uruguay and many other countries have high rates of gun ownership, and each has less than 100 firearm murders per year.

The collaltion between gun ownership and gun deaths just isn’t there.


85 posted on 12/21/2012 11:14:24 AM PST by Fido969
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To: detective

Its the Daily Mail, a notoriously hysterical tabloid that prioritises sensationalism over facts, and will distort and twist the facts to make headlines such as BRITAIN MORE VIOLENT THAN SOUTH AFRICA!!!ONE1

Reading between the lines, I would guess that the truth is more like that Britain has a lot more reported ‘violent’ crimes such as common assault and more crimes on the books that are considered to be violent crimes than in South Africa.
But come on, if you seriously believe that Britain is more violent a country that is not only notorious for its high levels of rape, carjackings and home invasions, but such is the violence against white settlers that South Africa is actually considered by organisations such as genocidewatch to be at stage 6 (of 8) in terms of how at risk the white community is at in that country.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world-news/africa/item/13280-genocide-communism-threaten-south-africa

So yes, you will forgive me if I take the Daily Wail’s assertions that Britain is more violent than South Africa with a very large dump truck full of salt...


86 posted on 12/21/2012 12:22:01 PM PST by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: the scotsman

Your points are all well taken. In my original post, I noted that definitions and categorizations as “violent crime” vary.

I think it would be useful if you are going to compare murder rates between UK and US to use total murder rates rather than gun murder rates. Guns being less widely available, it’s reasonable to expect that the gun murder rate would be higher in US.

But I doubt it makes much difference to the victim whether he’s murdered with a gun or a cricket bat.


87 posted on 12/21/2012 1:37:06 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan
I believe South Africa has the highest rate of violence in the world, particularly against white residents. I wasn’t saying that I knew the articles were accurate. I was more interested in showing the quotes of public officials and others talking about the high rates of violent crime in Britain. There were several other publications that said the violent crime in Britain was higher than the U.S.
88 posted on 12/21/2012 1:59:59 PM PST by detective
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To: Sherman Logan

But, as we’ve discussed in another thread, a gun is an effective force multiplier. There is no way that Lanza nutcase could have killed all those people if he’d been armed with a cricket bat. Guns make killing so much easier, both physically and psychologically, this is an indisputable fact that needs to be admitted openly.

Having said that, I’m not arguing that guns should be banned in the US, I don’t think that gun control is any kind of solution when it comes to the US. I know for sure that if I was living in America, I’d make damn sure I had a C&C license and I would campaign against ‘gun free zones’, which are stupid.
In Britain, its a bit different, we are an island, and its much harder to get hold of illegal weapons so gun control is a more practical option here (at least in the sense of stopping crazies going on rampages), whether it is a just and reasonable response to stop people being able to own guns just because some innocents are occasionally killed/injured by them is another matter, and its one I’m on the fence over in a British context. I certainly would miss Britain not being able to have an unarmed police force, especially in light of stories like this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-19979184


89 posted on 12/21/2012 3:25:14 PM PST by sinsofsolarempirefan
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

Well that was very obliging of him. ;)


90 posted on 12/21/2012 3:59:10 PM PST by GVnana
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To: sinsofsolarempirefan

I think your positions are quite reasonable.

Too many US supporters of gun rights refuse to recognize the, to me, obvious fact that more guns = greater likelihood of a nutjob getting hold of one and doing something like this. Or that some guns make doing so a whole lot more efficient than other guns.

Does a widely armed populace increase or decrease crime in general? Don’t know, and I doubt anybody does.

But it certainly makes access to guns effective for spree killings easier.


91 posted on 12/21/2012 6:05:36 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Sherman Logan

So what?

Easy access to liquor and naive women make it too easy for Kennedys to rape and kill. Want to outlaw them?

There’s a reason there would not have been a Constitution without the RTKBA.


92 posted on 12/21/2012 6:12:14 PM PST by jjotto ("Ya could look it up!")
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To: Responsibility2nd

Sydney Australia has one of the lowest crime rates in the world and guns are banned, too. Standard of living is higher and standard of education is higher. Maybe that’s a factor.


93 posted on 12/21/2012 6:17:43 PM PST by MrsEmmaPeel (a government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take everything you have)
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To: jjotto

Would you care to point out anywhere I’ve suggested banning guns?

I commented on the fact that widely available guns have costs as well as benefits. One of those costs is easier access to guns by nutjobs.


94 posted on 12/21/2012 6:28:51 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: MrsEmmaPeel
Sydney Australia has one of the lowest crime rates in the world and guns are banned, too. Standard of living is higher and standard of education is higher. Maybe that’s a factor.

What are Sydney's demographics?

95 posted on 12/21/2012 7:37:02 PM PST by Ken H
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To: the scotsman
Agree it's a BS article. See my post #23
96 posted on 12/21/2012 7:44:22 PM PST by Ken H
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To: Ken H
What are Sydney's demographics?

Are your serious? 7 million people more ethically diverse than in any city in the US. Prior WWII, Sydney was the 3rd largest speaking Italian city city in the world, personally, I doubt if it still holds that honor. Large Asian influences. High standard of education. Sydney-siders love their opera and ballet. I can't think of another city on the planet that loves their culture as much as the Aussies. You have not lived until you have had an evening at the Sydney Opera House. One of the lowest crime rates of any city. Its not the banning of guns, its the education of the populace.

97 posted on 12/21/2012 10:39:41 PM PST by MrsEmmaPeel (a government big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough to take everything you have)
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To: GVnana

‘So...care to guess how many in the 50 states?

It would make an interesting comparison, but you don’t have one.’

My understanding was/is that there would much less than 28 different ‘violent’ offences on US state statute books.

‘My impressions? If this string of crimes had happened in the US, we would be asking “Why?” and “Where did we go wrong?” ‘

Really?. You have just had twenty little children blasted to death, and the biggest ire seems to be about keeping weapons....

‘I never see that in the discussion of British crimes. I find most Brits to be appallingly apathetic on the subject. It’s as if the matter was closed, you have your solutions, and nothing more can be done.’

We arent apathetic, people here were sick and angry at what happened to the two PC’s, just as we are when there are violent murders, of adults or children.

Perhaps the average Brit should get more angry, but you have to remember that, for all the hype, the UK actually is not a seriously violent nation. Most violent offences are against property. Violence against the person in the UK are about 70% fueled by alcohol and happen at the weekend.

And the UK historically has had a very low rate of crime, let alone murder. Hence the shock in America and elsewhere when the UK figures rocketed.

We simply dont have the amount of people being murdered by gun or other weapons, England and Wales (pop. 50 million) had 550 murders last year, Scotland (pop 5m) had 95, NI (pop 1.5m) had even less.

So the UK, with a population of over 60 million, had less than 700 murders.

Does that sound like a violent nation?.

‘Pardon me if I don’t look to you for solutions.’

Right back at you.


98 posted on 12/22/2012 1:52:10 PM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: roofgoat

Hi.

The major cities (London, Glasgow, Manchester, Liverpool, Edinburgh, Carfiff, Swansea etc) have always had organised crime and always will. They run the usual: drugs, women, gambling.

Gangs also have existed for 100 years in major cities. Where they used the knife and still do, guns are more prevalent. Like you, we have a young violent core who have watched too many films and carry around guns like they are straight outta Compton....

In some cities, that core is black kids. In some, its white. In others, its a mix.

They are certainly more violent than they were, more disposed to use guns, although murders between gangs is still low and would be seen by you as an American, as ridiculously low. Guns used tend to be handguns and occ. shotguns as opposed to Uzis, assault rifles, although those are sometimes used by younger gang members.

The organised crime and the city gang violence has risen and is a serious problem. But it is still probably ridiculously low by comparison with US gang culture/murder/death. The UK (pop 60m) had less than 700 murders last year.


99 posted on 12/22/2012 2:01:38 PM PST by the scotsman (i)
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To: Fido969

Just a caveat. It says “recorded” crime.


100 posted on 12/23/2012 2:10:23 AM PST by Vanders9
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