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Dave Grossman: First-Person Shooter Videogames Should be Banned
January 4 | Katechon

Posted on 01/04/2013 5:43:51 PM PST by Katechon

Dave Grossman

The first juvenile mass-murder happened for the FIRST TIME in recorded human history in the late 1970s, in California. In 500 years of gun-powder combat, not once had a juvenile committed multiple homicide. We had a couple in the 1980s, and now it's out of control. So what happened?

It's Pavlog Dog, said Lt. Col. Lt. Col. Grossman: our youth is being conditioned from childhood by videogames to be "First-Person Shooters, (FPS) and to associate killing, human death and suffering with reward and pleasure.

first person shooters

Videogames are not "games"; they are mass-murder simulators, Grossman says.

Our kids are being wired from childhood by hyper-violent and realistic video games to be brainless killers, precognitively loaded to be potential murderers. And if videogames are training them to be killers, the movies and many TV shows are the propaganda machines of the gang-bangers.

In videogames, kids are being rewarded to kill, but without any of the benefits coming from the disciplinary training of the Army. And this rewarding response to killing another (virtual) human being deactivates our innate resistance to murdering.

Everyone is born with a deep resistance to killing any member of one’s own species; and this resistance is a key factor in combat.

Most participants in close combat are “frightened out of their wits,” says Grossman. But proper operant conditioning reliably influences the midbrain processing of a frightened human being.

Fire drills condition terrified school children to respond properly during a fire. Conditioning in flight simulators enables frightened pilots to respond reflexively to emergency situations.

Once the bullets start flying, combattants stop thinking with the forebrain (cerebrum) and start thinking with the primitive midbrain. The limbic system and the hypotalamus are in action while killing; whilst the rational brain is deactivated. But even the midbrain processing powerfully resists to the killing of one’s own species; it's a survival mechanism preventing a species from destroying itself.

To overcome this innate resistance to killing other human beings, the military and law enforcement communities have developped operantly conditioned devices using killing simulators in training. Turning killing into a conditionned response.

By the middle of the XXth century, the Human Resources Research Office (HumRRO) of the US Army pioneered a revolution in combat training. This paradigmatic shift would lead warriors firing at bullseye targets to warriors firing at man-shaped pop-up targets that fall when hit.

bullseyes

Image 1602

Brigadier General S.L.A. Marshall observed that only 15 to 20 percent of the individual riflemen in World War II fired their weapons at an exposed enemy soldier. When left to their own devices, 80 percent of the combatants appear to have been unable or unwilling to kill.

But murder simulators produced a dramatic increase in participation in killing. More effective tactical and mechanical mechanisms were developped to enable or force combatants to overcome their resistance to killing.

The application and perfection of conditioning techniques increased the rate of fire to approximately 55 percent in Korea and around 95 percent in Vietnam, says Grossman.

The military’s marksmanship training program, with its pop-up targets, constitutes an highly effective operant conditioning.

Military behaviorists found out how to overcome our innate resistance to murder; they brought way up the percentage of killers among the platoons by incorporating reactive training with humanoid pop-up silhouettes.

Now the video industry has kids playing video games for hours at a time, blasting away at humanoid targets which explode in blood and gore when you shoot them.

In First-Person Shooter videogames, you pull the trigger and the human explodes in high-def blood and gore in front of you. And you do it again and again and again, while eating chips, drinking pop and smelling your girlfriend's perfume. This reconditions the kids to be ready to pull any actual trigger on any living human. Those videogames should be BANNED, restricted to military and law enforcement training.

turn the tv off


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: banglist; massacres; newtown; sandyhook; shooting; vanity; videogames; violence
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To: KC_Lion
More gamer fun:
151 posted on 01/04/2013 7:37:08 PM PST by EEGator
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To: Mr. Silverback

It’s not about reducing gangs in the ‘hood and drudlords and the insane violence FPS videogames.

I never was about that.

It was about thinking about the role of FPS videogames in today’s violence, as Grossman suggests we do.


152 posted on 01/04/2013 7:38:35 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Norm Lenhart

Which question?


153 posted on 01/04/2013 7:39:24 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

This week, Al Sharpton was demanding tight gun control restrictions on his radio show. A caller asked him what he would do when the murderers in our society began using knives instead of guns. Al said that at that point we would ban knives.

If we banned video games and young gangbangers still killed each other in the streets, people like you and Grossman would just blame movies or television. If you don’t recognize now that the problem is a problem of the heart, you won’t recognize it later. Like Al Sharpton, you will simply change targets.


154 posted on 01/04/2013 7:39:43 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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To: Katechon

No such role has an iota of peer reviewed evidence to back the assertion.

So are you going to answer the question a number of us asked you?


155 posted on 01/04/2013 7:40:09 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Katechon

How about paying attention to the conversation going on on this thread?


156 posted on 01/04/2013 7:41:22 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Katechon
It was about thinking about the role of FPS videogames in today’s violence, as Grossman suggests we do.

You mean the role of FPS videogames in reducing today's violence?

157 posted on 01/04/2013 7:42:07 PM PST by Strategerist
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To: Norm Lenhart

If the question is “So are you going to ever address the now several posters who have lifetines of FPS games and no real world kills? If not, why not?” then I’ve already answered it:

it creates the potential; it disaffects from murder; its deactivate the innate resistance to murder (according to Grossman, here, no me).

That does not mean that it would transform every FPS gamer into an actual killer.

It operates on a collective level; so the realm of statistics should be applied here, not random testimony by Freepers.


158 posted on 01/04/2013 7:43:12 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

What about the FACT that millions of people play them daily and do not kill anyone?

You DO realize FR has a sizable gamer contingent do you not?

Are we all killers in training waiting to snap?

Yes or no because you cannot have it both ways


159 posted on 01/04/2013 7:43:40 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Katechon

You assert facts not in evidence. where is the evidence to back the assertion? Peer reviewed evidence that proves that the data on the ground is wrong.


160 posted on 01/04/2013 7:45:40 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Katechon
So what’s your point about the 19th century

Let us go back to 1630s... When there wasn't much in the way of firearms (and the ones there were, were crap), and a lot of the hacking and slashing and murdering and raping and slave taking... yes slave taking, was happening up close and personal with pikes, and knives and clubs and swords.

There wasn't any problem with murder in large, industrial size batches there.

Remember the life expectancy in the 1630s. Those were not gray haired old men doing the killing.

Small group of thugs decend on a town in Thuringia, and kill the men, rape the women, and take whoever can stand a road trip, after killing the rest, up close and personal.

Rinse and repeat.

For all the loot those bastards took, they never got a single video game.

Your theory to ban video games is bad science.

/johnny

161 posted on 01/04/2013 7:47:34 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Mr. Silverback

1) Television has nothing to do with TRAINING for the act of murder, like FPS videogames do.

2) Neither me nor Grossman are for gun control. Where do you take that from?


162 posted on 01/04/2013 7:48:47 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

Now you’re just dodging.

You and Grossman these games have a role in causing this violence. When someone points out the problems with that theory, you act as if you are being asked to solve the gang problem. No, you are not being asked to fix all violence everywhere, you are being asked to show evidence that explains why gang violence is occurring in certain places and not others, even though the kids in both places play FPS games.

I’ll keep it to one specific question. Chicago and Houston have about the same population, demographics and income distribution. One had several hundred more gun murders than the other. Were more copies of FPS games sold in one city than the other?


163 posted on 01/04/2013 7:51:47 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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To: Strategerist

that’s not Grossman’s thesis.

Grossman argues the opposite. Read the head-thread.


164 posted on 01/04/2013 7:52:36 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
according to Grossman, here, no me

Your english got worse suddenly, or the orignal poster was replaced by the handlers.

2nd mistake in the last few posts, and perfectly flawless up until then.

/johnny

165 posted on 01/04/2013 7:53:00 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Wasn’t China recently pushing the American Gun ban?


166 posted on 01/04/2013 7:54:38 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: JRandomFreeper

Exactly, mon ami.


167 posted on 01/04/2013 7:54:47 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Yeah , I know. Wallace was part of the problem. I was born and raised in New Mexico. I am a serious Linclon County War buff. From everything I have studied over the last 35 years, I’ve come to the conclusion that Bonney was on the right side. But that is just the opinion of an amature historian.


168 posted on 01/04/2013 7:54:47 PM PST by sean327 (God created all men equal, then some become Marines!)
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To: Mr. Silverback

I have no idea!


169 posted on 01/04/2013 7:56:46 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
that’s not Grossman’s thesis.

If you had been paying attention and could read, you'd notice that the theory that FPS games have reduced the murder rate is MY thesis.

My thesis has more evidence to back it up than Grossman's thesis.

Banning FPS video games is a dangerous step that risks getting thousands more people murdered.

170 posted on 01/04/2013 7:57:24 PM PST by Strategerist
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To: Katechon

First correct thing you said so far.


171 posted on 01/04/2013 7:57:39 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: sean327
Show me a time and a place where a politician wasn't a problem. ;)

A while back, I asked my very smart brother to tell me the difference between government and a shakedown/ strongarm mob.

He still keeps telling me that he's thinking about it.

/johnny

172 posted on 01/04/2013 7:58:23 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Friends stormed our flat a few minutes after I posted the thread. Then I had to go buy beers, and now I’m being, well, entertained!

It’s Friday night, I can tell now!


173 posted on 01/04/2013 7:59:42 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
I have no idea!

There lies the beginning of wisdom.

/johnny

174 posted on 01/04/2013 8:00:15 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: JRandomFreeper

Johnny...AKA ‘Zen-Freeper’ ;)


175 posted on 01/04/2013 8:01:31 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Katechon
1) Television has nothing to do with TRAINING for the act of murder, like FPS videogames do.

How do you know? Can you cite any data that shows television and movie violence have no effect on whether someone commits acts of violence or how effective they are at it?

Neither me nor Grossman are for gun control. Where do you take that from?

I didn't say you were. I was using Sharpton as an example of your mindset and the intellectual bankruptcy of your position.

Seriously, if we banned FPS games and Chicago still had 2,400 shootings a year, what would you want to do to solve the problem?

176 posted on 01/04/2013 8:01:47 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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To: Norm Lenhart

Listen, I am not Grossman, OK? I tried to submit his thesis to discussion, and advocate it for the purpose of discussion.

So please, stop being so aggressive with me, accusing of trolling, etc. Am I not representing Grossman’s thesis fairly? That’s my job, here, now, in the context of this thread.


177 posted on 01/04/2013 8:03:17 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
That's pretty screwed up.

Friends storm (ha) this place, they call ahead, and bring something good to drink.

Of course, I am of advanced age, and sit higher than those that might drop by to offer gifts and respect.

/johnny

178 posted on 01/04/2013 8:03:58 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Mr. Silverback

The problem of Chicago, as far as I could tell (I’m not specialist) is related to drug gangs first and foremost.

Of course, the fatherless kids, the culture of entitlements, etc, don’t help. But in Chicago per se (in some very specific districts) there is permanent civil war among druglords.

My solution would be to legalize this drug (in order to offer another way of resolving conflicts than the gun: such as Courts of Justice).


179 posted on 01/04/2013 8:06:08 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

You advocate stripping Americans of their Constitutional freedoms and are offended when they react ‘aggressively’?

What in the name of Ladyboys everywhere are they teaching you?

You post a theory that is crap on it’s face, refuse to address multiple problems and then play victim?

All I can say is that it’s fun making libs look stupid.


180 posted on 01/04/2013 8:07:28 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Katechon

Whoa, wait a minute...

FPS games are PRODUCING (your word) a new generation of gang killers....

...and you can’t tell me why two major American cities have different levels of gang violence or what relationship FPS games have to that violence...

...but you expect us to agree to a ban on these games?

Really?


181 posted on 01/04/2013 8:08:14 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

1) Television has nothing to do with TRAINING for the act of murder, like FPS videogames do.
How do you know that television has nothing to do with TRAINING for the act of murder, like FPS videogames do.

Because Grossman is talking about the act of killing another human being.
The training began with bullseyes, then pop-up humanoid silhouettes, then video-games.

With Televsion, you don’t do anything to influence what is happening on the TV screen. But you do with videogames.


182 posted on 01/04/2013 8:11:04 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Mr. Silverback

1) Television has nothing to do with TRAINING for the act of murder, like FPS videogames do.
How do you know that television has nothing to do with TRAINING for the act of murder, like FPS videogames do.

Because Grossman is talking about the act of killing another human being.
The training began with bullseyes, then pop-up humanoid silhouettes, then video-games.

With Televsion, you don’t do anything to influence what is happening on the TV screen. But you do with videogames.


183 posted on 01/04/2013 8:11:04 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
But in Chicago per se (in some very specific districts) there is permanent civil war among druglords.

That civil war extends into the City Hall. With bosses owning the government.

I'm not sure there is a fix. Chicago may go the way of Detroit.

But other cities don't have those problems like that.

Video games aren't the problem. Communist governments are.

/johnny

184 posted on 01/04/2013 8:13:45 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Katechon

If you believe the most violent city in America has its violence problem “first and foremost” because of drugs and you cannot even explain what the role of video games is, IF ANY, in that mess, why do you expect to ban a legal product?

Banning Halo 4 and legalizing crack should fix the murder capital of the USA up nicely.


185 posted on 01/04/2013 8:13:56 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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To: Mr. Silverback

That’s indeed what Grossman is saying...

FPS videogames are producing a whole generation trained to kill but without the discipline of the military/police/militia.

And I’ve not read in his articles any compararive studies between cities.

Grossman is anchoring his thesis in the genesis and evolution of military’s marksmanship training.


186 posted on 01/04/2013 8:14:29 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

“With Televsion, you don’t do anything to influence what is happening on the TV screen. But you do with videogames.”

Then show the evidence of your assertion. Show the tens of thousands of documented video game killers with police reports and court cases.

And the statistical millions of deaths that resulted since the 70s.


187 posted on 01/04/2013 8:14:45 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Norm Lenhart

one does not need stats to know that when you play a videogame, you influence what is happening within the game. Otherwise, it would be called watching, not playing.

on the subject of evidence, there is a lot of stuff on Grossman’s website: http://www.killology.com


188 posted on 01/04/2013 8:18:11 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

Then what good is a thesis with no evidence to back it?

An F in any college I know of.


189 posted on 01/04/2013 8:19:30 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Mr. Silverback
Banning Halo 4 and legalizing crack should fix the murder capital of the USA up nicely.

Short of nukes, or getting replacement for Mrs. O'Malley's cow... meh... it can't make it any worse, except for the rape of the Constitution.

/johnny

190 posted on 01/04/2013 8:21:21 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Katechon

BTW, he has none of the evidence as there IS no evidence.

Produce any proof at all. You or he will be the first in history.


191 posted on 01/04/2013 8:21:21 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Mr. Silverback

LOL.

I thought Detroit had the highest murder rate.

By the way, as per statistics, Grossman brings a fascinating point: a more relevant stat is “aggravated assault”, in order to take into account the progress of medecine — since ‘murder rate’ only accounts for successful assaults.


192 posted on 01/04/2013 8:22:49 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Norm Lenhart

He does provide a lot of evidence to back his thesis. I’m just being a poor advocate here.


193 posted on 01/04/2013 8:24:25 PM PST by Katechon
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To: JRandomFreeper

yes, socialism and islam are the main problem — that is for sure.

but the dangerousness of socialism and islam does not exclude Grossman’s thesis.


194 posted on 01/04/2013 8:26:19 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
To show a statistical link between videogames and either massacres (which you didn't define, even after being asked to) or murders, one must have statistics.

Otherwise, a hypothosis without test and evidence is just so much flatulance, regardless of how much sense it makes to you.

I can show you proof that murders in general in the US are falling, and sales of video games are up.

/johnny

195 posted on 01/04/2013 8:28:49 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Norm Lenhart

I don’t play the victim; I’m only asking you to be polite.

And Grossman ain’t stripping nobody from their God-given and Constitutionnal rights.

He’s saying that FPS videogames provide an effective training to become-killer without the necessary discipline.


196 posted on 01/04/2013 8:29:17 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon; TheZMan; Bryanw92; Norm Lenhart; Zhang Fei; backwoods-engineer; Strategerist; ...
So what do you suggest?

What about the FACT that those FPS videogames function as MASS-MURDER TRAINING, simulator, rewiring the brain to over-come our native resistance to kill our own species?

Katechon:

#1 I suggest you BAN yourself from FPS shooter games and stick to your sissy easy-bake-oven and leave everyone else alone. Or if you must feel the need to control something....go buy a few "choose your own adventure books" so you can preview the outcomes

#2 When you state something as "FACT" saying it doesn't make it so. Cain didn't kill Abel because he played a FPS game.....he did it out of jealousy and his own personal interest. So much for native resistance to killing our own species since that's how it was in the beginning after The Fall of the human race.....I guess that's also why war is a relatively new thing only invented in the 70s......oh wait.

#3 If you favor banning FPS games - How do I fit into your equation? I've killed actual people and I'm not a big fan of video games or television. I mean you want to ban an object because it may make people think about killing. I've already actually done killing and could care less about your stupid video games. What would you have in store for me with your knee jerk reactions?

197 posted on 01/04/2013 8:29:18 PM PST by Repeat Offender (What good are conservative principles if we don't stand by them?)
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To: Katechon

No he does not. There is no evidence that shows millions of deaths. There is no evidence that shows normal people killing as a result of playing games. If there was, you and he would post it. And you cannot post what does not exist.

This has been enlightening. It has been some time since the libs sent someone to argue a completely vapid position in an attempt to rile up the Right.

But all you did was solidify support among the ranks. Thanks for that.

So tell whoever is feeding you lines that you failed. But here’s a tip for next time. Pick a subject that truly divides. Like Golf clubs. NOTHING will set one FReeper against another faster than a Golf Club discussion. Dozens have been banned in the past, so try that next time.

I might catch hell for letting it slip, but oh well. It’s my way of apologizing for holding you to account.


198 posted on 01/04/2013 8:31:27 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Repeat Offender

” Cain didn’t kill Abel because he played a FPS game.....he did it out of jealousy and his own personal interest. So much for native resistance to killing our own species since that’s how it was in the beginning after The Fall of the human race....”

Yes, as the old rabbis are saying, Cain was the ‘son of wrath,’; they think he’s the son of satan, a precursor to Masteman (who will then become allah).

There is evil in this world, and it certainly not an effect of FPS shooting.

It’s not about war either; there are JUST wars (such as the Crusades), and evil armies need to be exterminated (such as the armies of allah).

But the point of Grossman ain’t about evil nor war. It’s about training kids to become (potential) killers without any discipline.

He says those training is used my islamic militias and gang members, among many other people.


199 posted on 01/04/2013 8:33:59 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
I’m only asking you to be polite.

Polite is not barging into someone else's business with your bad ideas on reducing freedom in America.

Stick your nose in, expect hostility.

Did Pol-Pot use video games for his killing gangs? Or were they just thugs and that made them effective?

/johnny

200 posted on 01/04/2013 8:35:19 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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