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Dave Grossman: First-Person Shooter Videogames Should be Banned
January 4 | Katechon

Posted on 01/04/2013 5:43:51 PM PST by Katechon

Dave Grossman

The first juvenile mass-murder happened for the FIRST TIME in recorded human history in the late 1970s, in California. In 500 years of gun-powder combat, not once had a juvenile committed multiple homicide. We had a couple in the 1980s, and now it's out of control. So what happened?

It's Pavlog Dog, said Lt. Col. Lt. Col. Grossman: our youth is being conditioned from childhood by videogames to be "First-Person Shooters, (FPS) and to associate killing, human death and suffering with reward and pleasure.

first person shooters

Videogames are not "games"; they are mass-murder simulators, Grossman says.

Our kids are being wired from childhood by hyper-violent and realistic video games to be brainless killers, precognitively loaded to be potential murderers. And if videogames are training them to be killers, the movies and many TV shows are the propaganda machines of the gang-bangers.

In videogames, kids are being rewarded to kill, but without any of the benefits coming from the disciplinary training of the Army. And this rewarding response to killing another (virtual) human being deactivates our innate resistance to murdering.

Everyone is born with a deep resistance to killing any member of one’s own species; and this resistance is a key factor in combat.

Most participants in close combat are “frightened out of their wits,” says Grossman. But proper operant conditioning reliably influences the midbrain processing of a frightened human being.

Fire drills condition terrified school children to respond properly during a fire. Conditioning in flight simulators enables frightened pilots to respond reflexively to emergency situations.

Once the bullets start flying, combattants stop thinking with the forebrain (cerebrum) and start thinking with the primitive midbrain. The limbic system and the hypotalamus are in action while killing; whilst the rational brain is deactivated. But even the midbrain processing powerfully resists to the killing of one’s own species; it's a survival mechanism preventing a species from destroying itself.

To overcome this innate resistance to killing other human beings, the military and law enforcement communities have developped operantly conditioned devices using killing simulators in training. Turning killing into a conditionned response.

By the middle of the XXth century, the Human Resources Research Office (HumRRO) of the US Army pioneered a revolution in combat training. This paradigmatic shift would lead warriors firing at bullseye targets to warriors firing at man-shaped pop-up targets that fall when hit.

bullseyes

Image 1602

Brigadier General S.L.A. Marshall observed that only 15 to 20 percent of the individual riflemen in World War II fired their weapons at an exposed enemy soldier. When left to their own devices, 80 percent of the combatants appear to have been unable or unwilling to kill.

But murder simulators produced a dramatic increase in participation in killing. More effective tactical and mechanical mechanisms were developped to enable or force combatants to overcome their resistance to killing.

The application and perfection of conditioning techniques increased the rate of fire to approximately 55 percent in Korea and around 95 percent in Vietnam, says Grossman.

The military’s marksmanship training program, with its pop-up targets, constitutes an highly effective operant conditioning.

Military behaviorists found out how to overcome our innate resistance to murder; they brought way up the percentage of killers among the platoons by incorporating reactive training with humanoid pop-up silhouettes.

Now the video industry has kids playing video games for hours at a time, blasting away at humanoid targets which explode in blood and gore when you shoot them.

In First-Person Shooter videogames, you pull the trigger and the human explodes in high-def blood and gore in front of you. And you do it again and again and again, while eating chips, drinking pop and smelling your girlfriend's perfume. This reconditions the kids to be ready to pull any actual trigger on any living human. Those videogames should be BANNED, restricted to military and law enforcement training.

turn the tv off


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: banglist; massacres; newtown; sandyhook; shooting; vanity; videogames; violence
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1 posted on 01/04/2013 5:44:01 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

Ban everything.


2 posted on 01/04/2013 5:46:07 PM PST by Daveinyork (."Trusting government with power and money is like trusting teenaged boys with whiskey and car keys,)
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To: Katechon

First person shooter games, are cartoons.
Movies are real life imitations of violence.

How come no one else sees this ?


3 posted on 01/04/2013 5:47:15 PM PST by Morris70
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To: Katechon
he first juvenile mass-murder happened for the FIRST TIME in recorded human history in the late 1970s,

Don't tell people in New Mexico that. William Bonney was a teeny-bopper when he started his killing spree that led to lots of officers trying to track him down.

/johnny

4 posted on 01/04/2013 5:49:09 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Katechon

Ridiculous. Calls for yet more bans. What game was at fault in the late 70s—Pong?


5 posted on 01/04/2013 5:49:54 PM PST by dinodino
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To: Katechon
The first juvenile mass-murder happened for the FIRST TIME in recorded human history in the late 1970s

It's also only recently in recorded history that we classify teenagers as juveniles rather than adults.

6 posted on 01/04/2013 5:51:23 PM PST by eclecticEel (Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness: 7/4/1776 - 3/21/2010)
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To: Katechon
I did all kinds of first-person shooting of my friends with my toy guns long before video games. Didn't turn me into a mass killer.

Maybe the core problem is something else. My parents are still married. For all their flaws, I thank them for giving me a level of certainty in my childhood.

7 posted on 01/04/2013 5:51:53 PM PST by dirtboy
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To: Daveinyork

Ban single motherhood, ban dads working more than 40 hours a week, ban day care, ban high taxes, ban atheism, ban, ban, ban, ban, ban. Then, when the next nutjob goes psycho, ban some more stuff! Put every American in a small cell and feed us all bread and water. No stimulation. No extra calories. No energy consumption. Handcuff us to our cots at night, escort us to our work during the day.

Maybe then, we can finally be SAFE!


8 posted on 01/04/2013 5:52:49 PM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Katechon

Ban guns. Ban video games. Ban movies.

What nobody is asking for is to ban mentally damaged people (from little monsters in middle school to toothless hobos on the streets) who barely blocked by chemical doses from going murderous/suicidal. There are millions of mentally damaged people who can snap and kill a lot of people.


9 posted on 01/04/2013 5:53:11 PM PST by sagar
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To: dinodino

That’s not his point.

Grossman argues that videogames are producing a whole generation of potential mass killer; that the exceptions of yesterday are becoming the norms of today.


10 posted on 01/04/2013 5:53:11 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
Those videogames should be BANNED, restricted to military and law enforcement training.

Same problem as banning guns, except without the explicit Constitution recognition of the right: freedom.

People need to get this through their heads: IT IS NOT GOVERNMENT'S PLACE TO TELL THE PEOPLE WHAT TO DO! If it doesn't harm someone else, leave us alone!

11 posted on 01/04/2013 5:53:20 PM PST by backwoods-engineer ("Remember: Evil exists because good men don't kill the gov officials committing it." -- K. Hoffmann)
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To: Katechon
Remember....No Russian.


12 posted on 01/04/2013 5:53:32 PM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: dinodino

By Grossman’s standards I should be locked up for life. Probably killed hundreds of thousands over the years...:)


13 posted on 01/04/2013 5:54:02 PM PST by jsanders2001
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To: sagar

He does not want to ban movies.

And this is not mutually exclusive to restrict gun access to users of psychotropic medication.


14 posted on 01/04/2013 5:54:28 PM PST by Katechon
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To: KC_Lion
Lee-roy Jenkins!
15 posted on 01/04/2013 5:55:07 PM PST by BenLurkin (This is not a statement of fact. It is either opinion or satire; or both)
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To: jsanders2001

He never, ever promoted the preventive detention of FPS videogame users.


16 posted on 01/04/2013 5:55:55 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Morris70

FPS are as realistic, on their own way, as movies; both are “real life imitations of violence.”

But with videogames, ‘you’ are doing the killing, not the cool dude on the screen.


17 posted on 01/04/2013 5:57:54 PM PST by Katechon
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To: dinodino

>>What game was at fault in the late 70s—Pong?

The kid next door beat me in Pong every afternoon, so I stole my dad’s shotgun and killed his whole family.

Oh wait...no I didn’t. We got into a fight and sent to the principal’s office. We didn’t get expelled. We didn’t get arrested. We didn’t get drugged into a stupor. We just got sent home to our fathers.

Then, we made up the next day and were best friends..until the next time we decided it was time to fight and we repeated it all over again.

If you stop letting boys be boys, they will store up all their energy and it will be released explosively. Look at how feminine these young adult shooters look. That’s what’s wrong with them.


18 posted on 01/04/2013 5:58:01 PM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: eclecticEel
Wasn't the shooter in Conn. over 18? Therefore, an adult?

/johnny

19 posted on 01/04/2013 5:58:36 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Katechon

When this man explains the millions of people who daily play FPS and other games involving violence and don’t go out shooting puppies, babies and the elderly puppies and babies, I’ll buy his BS.

I never killed anyone so am I the sole exception on the planet? Are the other millions the individual sole exceptions too?

Does anyone see the stupidity of where this fool is headed?


20 posted on 01/04/2013 5:58:39 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: JRandomFreeper

I think Billy killed them one or two at a time, not a massacre (multiple victims) at a time.


21 posted on 01/04/2013 5:58:53 PM PST by RetiredTexasVet (Save the nation, have your family's progressives spayed or neutered.)
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To: Morris70

The point is, they are INTERACTIVE cartoons. The player settles the site picture on the human-like target and fires.

That said, I’m about as opposed to this as I can get, and I like LTC Grossman. I just like my old FPS games more...


22 posted on 01/04/2013 5:59:06 PM PST by Little Ray (Waiting for the return of the Gods of the Copybook Headings.)
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To: Katechon

If we are to ban anything, it should be a 1st amendment restriction on the press to publicize the name of any mass shooter.

They are intent on suicide, and know their key to fame is in the number of killed before they themselves are killed and the enemedia’s insistence on spreading their name. They want their name to live in infamy, towering above the previous mass murderer’s count. Otherwise, they may not get their own wikipedia entry.

Clearly, the mass murderer recently shot and killed in Texas last month will never be famous. His total count was 0, thus not having the prerequisites for being infamous.


23 posted on 01/04/2013 5:59:06 PM PST by C210N (When people fear government there is tyranny; when government fears people there is liberty)
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To: BenLurkin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkCNJRfSZBU


24 posted on 01/04/2013 5:59:20 PM PST by EEGator
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To: Katechon

He’s wrong. I’m sure it plays well to the “let’s ban everything” crowd, though.


25 posted on 01/04/2013 5:59:52 PM PST by dinodino
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To: Katechon

SLA Marshall is a discredited source who made up the interviews that support his contention that only 10% of WWII infantry fired their weapons in combat. David Hackworth whaled away at this fraud in his books. Grossman does not know what he’s talking about, even though he wraps his BS in a cloud of plausible sounding statements.


26 posted on 01/04/2013 5:59:55 PM PST by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Katechon

did we have fps games in the late 70s?

meanwhile, when did we shut down the nuthouses?

oh yea.... the late 70s. hmmm... what a coincidence


27 posted on 01/04/2013 6:00:04 PM PST by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: backwoods-engineer

So what do you suggest?

What about the FACT that those FPS videogames function as MASS-MURDER TRAINING, simulator, rewiring the brain to over-come our native resistance to kill our own species?


28 posted on 01/04/2013 6:00:04 PM PST by Katechon
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To: sten

We had humanoid pop-up silhouettes — used by the Army and the Police.

Videogames became realistic in the 1990s.


29 posted on 01/04/2013 6:02:04 PM PST by Katechon
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To: BenLurkin; EEGator

Whatever dude at least I have Chicken.


30 posted on 01/04/2013 6:02:04 PM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: Katechon

300,000 copies of MOH Warfighter were sold the first week it was out. If 1% of those were sold to juveniles there would only be 3000 kids playing (we know it is far greater than that). Then 1% of those were mass murderers then we would assume that there are 300 kids that will eventually snap and gun down a classroom. Sorry but I don’t see that many mass murders going down or even planned, let alone being done by juveniles.

That is just one game title.

We don’t have a gun problem or a game problem, we have a values problem.


31 posted on 01/04/2013 6:02:20 PM PST by pennyfarmer (Your socialist beat our liberal AGAIN.)
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To: pennyfarmer

My math might have been funny sorry. I just realized. But you get the point


32 posted on 01/04/2013 6:03:17 PM PST by pennyfarmer (Your socialist beat our liberal AGAIN.)
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To: RetiredTexasVet
I think Billy killed them one or two at a time, not a massacre (multiple victims) at a time.

Hell, it's New Mexico. It's a long way between folks out there. ;)

At the time, it was pointed out that William liked to read dime novels, and that may have contributed to his criminality.

We should ban those, too.

/johnny

33 posted on 01/04/2013 6:03:26 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: sten

What Grossman is saying is that natural born killers are a very tiny fraction of the population, around 4%.

But that FPS videogames are PRODUCING killers, not naturally born, but culturally PRODUCED.


34 posted on 01/04/2013 6:03:58 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

You’re right. I should’ve murdered entire armies by now given the number of FPS games I’ve played.

I didn’t. But don’t let that get in your way. March on.


35 posted on 01/04/2013 6:04:28 PM PST by TheZMan (Buy more ammo.)
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To: Katechon

With all due respect to the Colonel, it was years (arguably quite a few years) between when the “first juvenile homicide” happened and when any video game even beginning to simulate firearm combat at any level of realism was on the market.

Seriously, what game in the late 70’s was causing shootings? Atari Tanks? Battlezone? Space Invaders?

On top of that, he talks about no “juvenile” committing these multiple homicides in 500 years of gunpowder combat when he knows full well that until about 150 years ago the technology for ANYONE to commit a multiple firearm homicide didn’t exist.


36 posted on 01/04/2013 6:04:45 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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To: Katechon

so... dont piss us off

;)


37 posted on 01/04/2013 6:06:13 PM PST by sten (fighting tyranny never goes out of style)
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To: Katechon
Let me put it this way, BS ~ !~~~ ~~~

My childhood training involved learning to play a saxaphone and a clarinet ~ they have different finger schema but you have to learn to play both at the same speed when you participate in a music group.

That was followed by learning to type REALLY REALLY REALLY fast ~ 238 wpm on an electric typewriter (specially geared so it could go that fast).

Then, in the Army I discovered MACHINE GUNS. Due to my skill at firing bursts of 2, bursts of 3, bursts of 4, bursts of..... ~ whatever length you needed, in whatever order desired, I was picked to work with another fellow at firing all sorts of machineguns for the background fire in the John Wayne Vietnam war epic titled "The Green Beret".

I'm referred to in the credits as Fort Benning ~

I can still stomp them in the dirt when it comes to PacMan.

The error the analyst makes is imagining the development of eye-hand coordination to a high degree is necessarily limited to whatever you were seeing at the time you learned to do the trick. If it were I"d only be able to fire machine guns if I had a piece off paper in front of me ~ and I will assure anyone, I can fire machineguns with the best of them, paper or no paper!

38 posted on 01/04/2013 6:06:23 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Katechon

And before video games kids used TOY GUNS (GASP!?!?!) pointed them at each other yelling “Bang Bang!” and pretending to get shot and die.

And before guns, kids played with sticks in mock swordfights... pretending to slice and stab each other and fall over dead.

Both of those kids games are physical real-world roleplaying but there was never an outcry or some attempt to connect “cowboys and indians” to later violence in life.

I was born right on the cusp of the development of video games and have played them my entire life up to now. I could be considered an expert on the progession of games and the systems that run them.

Unless you are a true paranoid schitso, with the medical diagnosis, there has never been a problem of separating GAME from REALITY.

The problem is whether these kids who are growing up have any internal moral limiters to their REALITY. We teach kids MORAL RELATIVISM actively in school. How the hell do we expect any other result than the semi-frequent mass murder when kids are taught in class that “right” and “wrong” are based on your own personal feelings?

What’s the logical endgame to that line of reasoning? What if killing 30 people sounds good to you today? My fear of God Almighty keeps me from doing something like that. What do today’s kids have?


39 posted on 01/04/2013 6:06:36 PM PST by Advil000
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To: Katechon

>>What about the FACT that those FPS videogames function as MASS-MURDER TRAINING, simulator, rewiring the brain to over-come our native resistance to kill our own species?

I’m 50 years old. I played D&D since I was 18. I played cRPGs since they were invented. I played FPS games since they were invented. I played MMORPG’s since they were invented. I’ve owned a lot of scary black guns since Reagan was President.

From everything I’ve heard about “reprogramming the brain” for the last 30 years, I should be a mass murderer. Haven’t killed anyone. Not even planning on it. Not even chomping at the bit to “get the revolution started” as many FReepers are.

The problem is: we coddle crazy people, we try to turn boys into girls, and we allow man-hating women to raise boys alone.


40 posted on 01/04/2013 6:06:48 PM PST by Bryanw92 (Sic semper tyrannis)
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To: Katechon

What about the FACT that millions of people play them daily and do not kill anyone?

You DO realize FR has a sizable gamer contingent do you not?

Are we all killers in training waiting to snap?

Yes or no because you cannot have it both ways.


41 posted on 01/04/2013 6:06:48 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Katechon

Comment on Grossman from an online forum:
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=09f752eac59d906ff5fc67f480dd6ac1&t=118514&page=2


Wow, this was the right place to ask the question. I remembered my professor, who was absolutely brilliant, told us Marshall had been discredited. Unfortunately, my professor passed away at age 46. My initial interest was inspired by Ltc.David Grossman’s book On Killing, he states that what Marshall demonstrated was true and was true for all wars including the Civil War (15% of the men doing all the shooting and killing). He says it was true for combat pilots in WW II as well. He says this did not change until Vietnam. He suggests this was also true in the ancient world as well. Now I am not well versed on military history but the notion of only 15% of Roman soldiers doing the killing and fighting, remember, Grossman says this is true then as well, seems a bit of a stretch. But I also recognize I am far from an authority and could be wrong. I will check those sources out and your discussions are greatly appreciated.

Again, I salute you all for your extensive knowledge. This has been a big help for me. Not to nitpick, but in Grossman’s introduction he suggested a reliance in his approach to Freud and then even mentioned Alfred Kinsey both of whom to a greater or lesser degree, have been discredited. He relied a great deal on Freud throughout the book. In addition he aruges that we have been a sexually repressed society which leads to the problems associated and described in his book. I thought his argument when have been tighter if he had left out Freud, Kinsely, and discussions on sexual repression (something I don’t think any era has successfully suppressed). And, of course, he relies heavily on Marshall which, if discredited, all of the above would call into question his work. As an aside, a gun-rights activist gave me the book because Grossman teaches some sort of self defense seminar, but, in the conclusions to Grossman’s book, he makes a pitch for what could be described as gun-control through disarmament. I thought that was strange unless I misread it.



42 posted on 01/04/2013 6:07:01 PM PST by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: JRandomFreeper
A question ~ was he in on the pre-planning with Menino and Biden?

This is the second complainant who seems to believe young children got hold of guns and shot each other ~ Menino is the other one, and he said he talked it over with Biden?

Not that there was some sort of conspiracy afoot or that Lanza didn't do the shooting, but was he supposed to be the shooter, or was he supposed to give the kids several firearms and turn them loose on each other?

43 posted on 01/04/2013 6:09:27 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: pennyfarmer

I understand the value problems, the denying of Our Lord Jesus Christ, the hatred against the Chosen People, the invasion of islam, the pervasion of socialism.

Nonetheless, Grossman’s point might still stand, and be quite important.

It is not mutually exclusive.

What is Ann Barnhardt saying should be the first step to resistance: TURNING OFF THE TV.

Grossman says: don’t let your kids play those games — if it’s not for training, accompanied by DISCIPLINE. Of course, those games could be awesome for the training of the warriors of the coming Civil War Deux againt the tyrannical oligarchy!!


44 posted on 01/04/2013 6:09:33 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

I’ve experienced, first-hand, the combat conditioning that LTC Grossman refers to. However, I take issue with his extrapolation to FPS games. I made a series of very conscious decisions to get myself into the position where I finally used that “autopilot”. Once the shooting started, yes, the conditioning was there, and I was very aware of it later. It’s entirely possible he’s right regarding the conditioning effect from the FPS games, but the series of decisions that place these psychos in that very situation still have to be made. It was obvious that the Newtown shooting was planned. Aurora, CO, was planned. Columbine was planned. Most (all?) of these mass shootings are planned. Conditioning only kicks in when the lead starts flying, in my experience. Does the conditioning lead to higher body counts than would normally occur? I doubt it, but I’m sure LTC Grossman doesn’t know either.


45 posted on 01/04/2013 6:09:56 PM PST by Future Snake Eater (CrossFit.com)
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To: Little Ray

I also like video games, even FPS. I see it just as a game,
which I enjoy.


46 posted on 01/04/2013 6:10:18 PM PST by Morris70
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To: JRandomFreeper
Mebbe so, but according to Wikipedia (so we know it's true):

Biographers sought to explain McCarty's [Bonney's] subsequent descent into lawlessness by focusing on his habit of reading dime novels that romanticized crime.

And we all know dime novels are the predecessor all of FPS games, and should have been burned on the courthouse steps.

47 posted on 01/04/2013 6:11:25 PM PST by Melpomene (Proud member of the Who Dat nation.)
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To: Katechon

I was raised on Doom and Quake and I turned out fine.


48 posted on 01/04/2013 6:12:45 PM PST by isom35
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To: Katechon
What about the FACT that those FPS videogames function as MASS-MURDER TRAINING, simulator, rewiring the brain to over-come our native resistance to kill our own species?

There is no such native resistance. It's all cultural conditioning coupled with deterrence created by state-imposed punishments. Animals have been killing other animals over resources and for recreation since before they emerged from the primordial soup.

49 posted on 01/04/2013 6:13:01 PM PST by Zhang Fei (Let us pray that peace be now restored to the world and that God will preserve it always.)
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To: Zhang Fei

Most of the Roman fighting was not made by individual fighters on their own, was it? indivudals were mostly integrated into mechanisms.

This stats Grossman is referring here is about riflemen, acting on their own.

Grossman clearly says, that a shooting machine operated by more than 1 individual WILL AIM FOR THE KILL AND PULL THE TRIGGER.

Not the individual on his own, the lone rifleman.


50 posted on 01/04/2013 6:13:42 PM PST by Katechon
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