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Dave Grossman: First-Person Shooter Videogames Should be Banned
January 4 | Katechon

Posted on 01/04/2013 5:43:51 PM PST by Katechon

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To: Katechon

Perhaps it would be more effective to Ban Mass Murderers?


51 posted on 01/04/2013 6:13:57 PM PST by American in Israel (A wise man's heart directs him to the right, but the foolish mans heart directs him toward the left.)
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To: Katechon
Why does someone from Thailand care about what happens in the US?

We've got this little thing called a Constitution.

In it, the Founders recognized that God Almighty Himself had given men certain rights that even governments couldn't ban.

One of those is freedom of speech and press, which today, includes video games.

The next, funny enough, is to own and bear firearms, to keep us free.

So, take your crap and shove off.

/johnny

52 posted on 01/04/2013 6:14:08 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Katechon

I’m for banning people at this point.

Especially the really stupid ones...which is almost all of them.

First person shooters never did anything to anyone.

One thing I am learning through all of this is that people are demonstrating with great clarity what their greatest weakness and fear is.

Expect more attacks in the future and expect them to be better planned.

One thing people are not demostrating at all is what their strengths are.

Mankinds only defense in nature was his intelligence, and he obviously no longer has that defense.


53 posted on 01/04/2013 6:14:33 PM PST by chris37 (Heartless.)
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To: Zhang Fei

False. Not with their own species. They are being gentle with each others in their mating and territorial rituals, competitions.


54 posted on 01/04/2013 6:15:06 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

You are a troll. That comment proved it.


55 posted on 01/04/2013 6:16:18 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Bryanw92

I understand what you are saying, sir. And I fully agree.

However, Grossman ain’t talking about you as an individual. but about a trans-individual phenomenon. He says those FPS games should be deactivated because they act as very strong force in our society — by producing POTENTIAL killers.

It’s (para)military training without the discipline, the context, the organization.


56 posted on 01/04/2013 6:19:28 PM PST by Katechon
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To: American in Israel

Can you act on the future?


57 posted on 01/04/2013 6:19:59 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
Not with their own species. They are being gentle with each others in their mating and territorial rituals, competitions.

You don't get out into the wild much, do you, banner?

/johnny

58 posted on 01/04/2013 6:19:59 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Zhang Fei
Romans used a phalanx ~ they formed a square ~ guys on the perimeter held shields up; guys behind them poked at the enemy outside with spears. (recognize there are infinite variations on this theme, each with its special name ~ e.g. testudo)

Obviously even the Romans suffered casualties, and the phalanx formation had limits. When it broke down everybody was on the front, and they did sword chopping to who tied it then!

I don't think only 15% of the guys in a phalanx were burdened with all the combat!

59 posted on 01/04/2013 6:20:27 PM PST by muawiyah
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To: Katechon
Grossman argues that videogames are producing a whole generation of potential mass killer; that the exceptions of yesterday are becoming the norms of today.

Well then, his argument fails on multiple levels.

First, these sorts of shootings are extremely rare, so even if they have increased in frequency, they are not being driven by video games, because we haven't seen an increase anywhere near proportionate to the vast increase in video game popularity.

Second, millions of young men have gone through the same "operant conditioning" as one supposedly gets in a video game when Uncle Sam taught them to be soldiers and Marines, plus many of them play First Person Shooters, yet they don't go on murder sprees.

Third, a large number of mass shootings are carried out by adults who are well past the "juvenile" age.

Fourth, the description of these games as "mass murder simulators" is sort of like saying that Battleship or Axis & Allies is a mass murder simulator. Most FPS games deal with war, and in "mass murder" shootings, nobody is shooting back. It's difficult to trust the conclusions of someone who can't even describe the medium as it actually is.

Fifth, even if we say the argument is that the games are not making the murders any more likely but simply make the murderer more effective, that's a theory, not a conclusion supported by evidence, and certainly not a reason to ban a product when millions of people will use it and never harm another human being.

It's time for us to stop blaming the actions of occult freaks and mentally ill people on people and products that had nothing to do with the crime. It's morally repugnant, and is just the 21st Century version of the whole "Dungeons & Dragons causes suicide" stupidity.

60 posted on 01/04/2013 6:20:39 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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To: JRandomFreeper

I do. From the North of Thailand to the Mountains of British Columbia.

why?


61 posted on 01/04/2013 6:21:20 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
So what do you suggest?

I suggest the government leave me and mine the hell alone, and the rest of gun-owning America, before they start a civil war and cause hundreds of thousands to die.

What about the FACT that those FPS videogames function as MASS-MURDER TRAINING, simulator, rewiring the brain to over-come our native resistance to kill our own species?

We NEED to kill some of our own species! If a man comes after me or my family with a gun or weapon with the intent to harm, I WILL kill him! And I have a God-given right to do so.

People like you need to get real. Banning video games is not going to stop violent criminals. APPLIED VIOLENCE will stop them. If you've never been threatened with real violence, you have NO IDEA what I'm talking about.

62 posted on 01/04/2013 6:21:42 PM PST by backwoods-engineer ("Remember: Evil exists because good men don't kill the gov officials committing it." -- K. Hoffmann)
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To: Norm Lenhart
Yeah. First thing a male lion does when taking over a pride is to kill all the cubs that aren't his.

This bozo has no clue, and just wants to curb American freedoms.

/johnny

63 posted on 01/04/2013 6:21:51 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Mr. Silverback

No they are not rare

He’s not talking only about massacres in gun-free zones — such as schools.

But also the insane violence among kids in many cities and suburbs — especially black areas: about 30 young black men die everyday by way of violence, amid the drug gangs, serving their druglords.

That’s why Grossman says: GANGS ARE THE FUTURE.


64 posted on 01/04/2013 6:24:37 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
Because you've never observed nature. Intraspecies killing is common.

Male lions taking over a pride will kill lion cubs that aren't theirs. Male squirrels will kill other male squirrels over territory. Mother hampsters eat their babies.

Life ain't a frigging Disney movie.

/johnny

65 posted on 01/04/2013 6:25:54 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Katechon
BTW, your reference to operant conditioning techniques used to train soldiers to shoot tyrannical agressors in combat in Korea and Vietnam as "murder simulators"...

But murder simulators produced a dramatic increase in participation in killing. More effective tactical and mechanical mechanisms were developped to enable or force combatants to overcome their resistance to killing.

The application and perfection of conditioning techniques increased the rate of fire to approximately 55 percent in Korea and around 95 percent in Vietnam, says Grossman.

...is vomit-inducing and you should be ashamed. My friends who fought in Korea and Vietnam were not murderers, they were soldiers and Marines.

66 posted on 01/04/2013 6:26:23 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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To: Katechon
but about a trans-individual phenomenon.

And RIGHT THERE is the whole problem with our country right now. Justice properly deals with INDIVIDUALS not groups. Because groups don't have morality; individuals so. In any group that does evil, some are going to be the leaders, some are the followers, and some are just hangers-on who are there because they had nothing else to do. Each must be judged individually because only then JUSTICE be done.

Group "rights", group "justice", group "entitlements", that is the whole reason America is screwed. Our country was founded on the INDIVIDUAL and his choices, not the group.

Whenever anything is "banned" because of what a few persons does, a group is being judged because of an individual. And that in itself is unjust.

67 posted on 01/04/2013 6:27:04 PM PST by backwoods-engineer ("Remember: Evil exists because good men don't kill the gov officials committing it." -- K. Hoffmann)
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To: eclecticEel

Excellent point.


68 posted on 01/04/2013 6:27:34 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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To: Katechon

idiocy. They are just games.


69 posted on 01/04/2013 6:28:00 PM PST by RIghtwardHo
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To: Katechon
What about the FACT that those FPS videogames function as MASS-MURDER TRAINING, simulator, rewiring the brain to over-come our native resistance to kill our own species?

What about the "FACT" that the first remotely realistic-looking FPS games were Castle Wolfenstein in 1992, and Doom in 1993?

Yet 1992-1993 is PRECISELY when the high murder rates of the late 70s through the 80s began steeply DROPPING?

Shouldn't the reverse have happened?

70 posted on 01/04/2013 6:28:31 PM PST by Strategerist
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To: JRandomFreeper

HA! The lion was my first thought as well ;)

And we know the Shark is very compassionate to his species. Any feeding frenzy proves that.

And rats are just little black balls of love to other rats.

Consider the most peaceful of all Gods creatures. The Wolverine...Never known to kill ANYTHING, let alone another one in a territory dispute.

Every day more libs infest FR Johnny. It’s getting closer to quittin’ time.


71 posted on 01/04/2013 6:28:42 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Katechon
Define massacre. How many killed at one time, in one place, and state a boundry on time allowed for your definition of massacre.

/johnny

72 posted on 01/04/2013 6:28:42 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Bryanw92

Make sure those cots don’t have pillows. I bet they’re dangerous somehow.


73 posted on 01/04/2013 6:28:52 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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To: backwoods-engineer

Listen, I am not Dave Grossman. I am playing his advocate here in order to discuss his thesis.

I fully agree on killing in the name of overthrowing a tyranny — it is OUR DUTY to resist and counter-revolutionize a tyranny — and in the name of self-defense.

Second, those FPS games are military techniques applied to transform a normal being into a brainless killer, a sociopath. That’s the issue here.

The cultural, behavorial production of SOCIOPATHS. It has NOTHING to do with self-defense and the duty to overthrow a tyranny.


74 posted on 01/04/2013 6:28:52 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon
Second, those FPS games are military techniques applied to transform a normal being into a brainless killer, a sociopath. That’s the issue here.

Prove that. You made a flat statement. Prove it.

There are tens of millions in the US that play FPS games that AREN'T brainless killers and sociopaths.

/johnny

75 posted on 01/04/2013 6:31:54 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Strategerist

There are many explanations:

— the murder rate dropped because of the legalization of abortion (which I am not an advocate of): 20 years laters, all the father-less unwanted babies by evil mothers were not there to kill.

— the progress of medecine: many things that were lethal decades ago can be cured now.


76 posted on 01/04/2013 6:32:33 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

You need to look up Category Error. Cuz you HaZ it.


77 posted on 01/04/2013 6:32:33 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: RIghtwardHo
idiocy. They are just games.

A wholly separate issue is that it would be completely impossible to ban FPS games (just as it would be impossible to ban internet porn), and after a "ban" kids would be playing them just as much.

You could get rid of the console games - but FPS shooters would just move back to PCs, and kids would just be downloading and sharing over the internet even bloodier games written or modded by hackers from Russia, etc.

78 posted on 01/04/2013 6:33:08 PM PST by Strategerist
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To: Katechon
Ban those calling for bans.

I'm almost 35 years old. My video game collection 20 years ago - same age as these shooters - had Wolfenstein and then Doom. Later Duke Nukem 3d, Quake, and Tom Clancy. I don't play a lot of games anymore, but I have Mass Effect there as well - another shooter.

I own plenty of guns as well. I have never drawn my gun on another person.

79 posted on 01/04/2013 6:33:44 PM PST by Darren McCarty (If most people were more than keyboard warriors, we might have won the election)
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To: JRandomFreeper

He didn’t touch it in Post 38. Doubt he will here either.


80 posted on 01/04/2013 6:34:17 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Norm Lenhart
In conflict situations this primitive, midbrain processing can be observed in the existence of a powerful resistance to killing one’s own kind. Animals with antlers and horns slam together in a relatively harmless head-to-head fashion, and piranha fight their own kind with flicks of the tail, but against any other species these creatures unleash their horns and teeth without restraint. This is an essential survival mechanism which prevents a species from destroying itself during territorial and mating rituals (Grossman, 1996, 5-6).
http://www.killology.com/print/print_onkilling.htm I am no troll you idiot; I'm trying to be Grossman's advocate.

81 posted on 01/04/2013 6:34:40 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

Everyone should watch the entire interview. It was enlightening. No suggestion of banning anything and a logical explaination of why playing cops and robbers or cowboys and Indians or paintball or air soft is different
and produces different results. It was a very informative interview and I suggest watching it before dismissing it. This guy is the foremost expert on the subject. He wrote the book on teaching soldiers and cops how to kill an opponent.


82 posted on 01/04/2013 6:35:35 PM PST by bk1000 (A clear conscience is a sure sign of a poor memory)
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To: Norm Lenhart

Edit Post 28


83 posted on 01/04/2013 6:36:01 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Strategerist
games written or modded by hackers from Russia

Some of those Russians got talent, and since Glastnost, their command of English is improving. I got some respect for the Ruskis these days.

/johnny

84 posted on 01/04/2013 6:36:07 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: muawiyah

“The error the analyst makes is imagining the development of eye-hand coordination to a high degree is necessarily limited to whatever you were seeing at the time you learned to do the trick. If it were I”d only be able to fire machine guns if I had a piece off paper in front of me ~ and I will assure anyone, I can fire machineguns with the best of them, paper or no paper!”

No, Grossman’s analysis is not about coordination. It’s about overcoming our natural resistance to KILL ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.


85 posted on 01/04/2013 6:36:35 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

Children must KNOW that they are not the boss. Until that changes, we’ll continue our slide into the pits of hell because the Godless, fearless, selfish, narcissistic and unguided reckless child of today is a HEARTLESS A-HOLE ADULT TOMORROW!


86 posted on 01/04/2013 6:36:58 PM PST by Obama_Is_Sabotaging_America (IMPEACH OBAMA)
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To: Katechon

You are a troll...idiot. And 9 ways of wrong in most of what you posted.


87 posted on 01/04/2013 6:37:52 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: bk1000

Grossman suggested to ban in here:
http://www.killology.com/


88 posted on 01/04/2013 6:38:17 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

I turn up the stereo full blast when I play Black Ops.

Luv it!!!!

Never even thought about hurting anyone or anything.

In fact, I will pick up a bee and set him outside before I kill com. he’s only lost and I will guide him.


89 posted on 01/04/2013 6:39:09 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Norm Lenhart

Ok, whatever. Thanks for your valuable inputs. Good bye.


90 posted on 01/04/2013 6:39:09 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

WHAT NATURAL RESISTANCE???????

THERE IS NO NATURAL RESISTANCE!!!


91 posted on 01/04/2013 6:39:42 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Vendome

LOL, God bless you!


92 posted on 01/04/2013 6:40:21 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Norm Lenhart

then you’re probably a natural-born psychopath.

please stay away from me, now. thanks.


93 posted on 01/04/2013 6:41:25 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon

This stuff is so much poop. Movies and games do not make killers. I am an avid first person shooter and epic fantasy player. I “kill” people daily, sometimes my son and daughter who also play. But you know what, not one of us has gone a shooting spree yet. Oh, wait, we are a happy well adjusted family with no mental illness or major issues.


94 posted on 01/04/2013 6:42:08 PM PST by USAFJeeper (Who Dat Nation - Loving the Manning Face!)
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To: Katechon; All

I’m sorry, but this is as silly as the Dungeons and Dragons scare of the 1980’s or the comic book scare of the 50’s. I ain’t buyin’ it. It’s a bunch of hooey.

Human beings don’t need to be motivated by a whole lot to do violence. The Visigoths, the Huns, and the other barbarian tribes didn’t have first person shooters to inspire them, and look what they did to the Romans. You know what ? Mohammed’s murderous hordes didn’t have them either when they conquered Christian Spain. The Third Reich ? No video games. Stalin’s murderous purges ? No video games, either. You know, I’m fairly certain that Ho Chi Minh’s guerrillas didn’t play Doom or Call of Duty, and neither did Pol Pot’s executioners, to the best of my limited knowledge.

Major fail, with all due respect.


95 posted on 01/04/2013 6:42:38 PM PST by Absolutely Nobama (The Doomsday Clock is at 11:59:00......tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock.....)
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To: Katechon

Gladly. Just stop posting total crap as fact.


96 posted on 01/04/2013 6:43:01 PM PST by Norm Lenhart
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To: Morris70

WITH??!??!!!

You remind me of the guy who told me Santa wasn’t real.

I nevuh believed him. Specially after yesterday. What a great day.


97 posted on 01/04/2013 6:43:08 PM PST by Vendome (Don't take life so seriously, you won't live through it anyway)
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To: Katechon
You are avoiding answering some questions, and you are new here on FR, and you are advocating that Americans be banned from something.

You should expect some pushback.

At the very least to mind your own business, until you get the gang problems in Thailand sorted out. Then you can school us.

/johnny

98 posted on 01/04/2013 6:44:11 PM PST by JRandomFreeper (Gone Galt)
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To: Darren McCarty

God bless you.

Again, it’s not about individual cases, but about a collective phenomenon.

Kids learning to kill by operational conditionning without the adequate discipline provided by the Army or the Police (or even a proper family or school system).


99 posted on 01/04/2013 6:44:36 PM PST by Katechon
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To: Katechon; sagar
He does not want to ban movies.

But if we ban video games and still have shootings...what will be his position then?

100 posted on 01/04/2013 6:44:36 PM PST by Mr. Silverback (Don't worry about the cliff. We're going to all land on some rich guy's wallet.)
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