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Women In Combat: "Fairness" Vs. Biological Fact
Boston Herald ^ | January 25, 2013 | Michael Graham

Posted on 01/25/2013 4:49:30 AM PST by suspects

President Obama, in dogged pursuit of his liberal Nirvana, is free to lift the ban on women serving in combat positions.

He is, alas, unable to repeal the laws of nature, physics or gravity.

Ask a combat veteran you know how he would have felt knowing that, after being wounded in combat, the only person around to pick him up and carry him to safety was a 5-foot-3, 120-pound woman.

Ask any active duty serviceman how he’d feel knowing that, as he lay on the ground bleeding, the only thing between him and a cave-hardened Tali-ban killer was a 20-year-old woman from the wilds of Wellesley.

Don’t ask these men how they feel about women in positions of power, or about working side-by-side with the opposite sex. Every American male under the age of 50 grew up in a world with women in power: From the principals in our schools to the cops on our streets and the managers at our offices. The notion that America is a sexist nation, or that — as Obama repeatedly asserts — business owners have the desire or ability to pay women less for the same work, is a liberal fiction.

The stupidity and wrong-headedness of the Obama administration’s “women in combat” decision has nothing to do with the proper social position of women and everything to do with indisputable, biological fact.

Facts reported by professor Kingsley Browne of Wayne State University, author of the book “Co-ed Combat”:

“Inclusion of women in (combat) roles results in a segment of the force that is physically weaker, more prone to injury (both physical and psychological), less...

(Excerpt) Read more at bostonherald.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: combat; marines; military; women

1 posted on 01/25/2013 4:49:40 AM PST by suspects
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To: suspects

It’s so laughable but I really want to scream.
Common sense is truly dead.


2 posted on 01/25/2013 4:56:28 AM PST by FES0844
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To: suspects

OK Let’s move forward with this idea.

Same test to get into the military

Same aptitude, education, and physical ability.

Same training. Technical,emotional, and physical

Let’s see who comes out the other side.


3 posted on 01/25/2013 4:59:03 AM PST by maine yankee (I got my Governor at 'Marden's')
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To: suspects

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/get-over-it-we-are-not-all-created-equal


4 posted on 01/25/2013 5:04:07 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: suspects

They should require any woman wanting to become a ground grunt to watch “Band of Brothers,” “The Pacific” (particularly the Peleliu sequences), Hamburger Hill, and “They Were Soldiers,” and then ask her if she really thinks she can handle brutal, gory combat, in filthy conditions, of that intensity?


5 posted on 01/25/2013 5:10:09 AM PST by Timber Rattler (Just say NO! to RINOS and the GOP-E)
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To: suspects

By all means put men and women in the same foxhole. Why should gays have all the fun?


6 posted on 01/25/2013 5:11:53 AM PST by csmusaret (I will give Obama credit for one thing- he is living proof that familiarity breeds contempt.)
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To: suspects

The “she” is not important. It is the fighting machine that is important and anything that has an adverse effect on the unit efficiency should be removed.

I saw it years ago when we first had to bring women into heavy industry. The women individually were OK. It was the mixing of sexes on crews. Some men are conditioned to be helpful to women and take on part of their work load. Some men are just sexually aggressive, some aren’t, jealousy enters the picture, she is more attracted to one, many, many factors surface, and the mission suffers.

Check out the few countries that allow mixed front line units, like the Dutch, and you will find they are worthless as fighting units.


7 posted on 01/25/2013 5:11:58 AM PST by elpadre (AfganistaMr Obama said the goal was to "disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-hereQaeda" and its allies.)
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To: elpadre

“you will find they are worthless as fighting units.”

Why does this surprise anyone, isn’t that one of BOs goals? To neuter our military?

Anything to weaken us, he’ll do it.


8 posted on 01/25/2013 5:17:43 AM PST by FrogMom (Chicken Little is coming, and he's right!)
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To: suspects

What a truly shameful day when we hide behind our women instead of protect them.

We are in the down fall that’s for sure.


9 posted on 01/25/2013 5:20:08 AM PST by DwFry (Baby Boomers Killed Western Civilization!)
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To: FrogMom

Exactly and right on target. Anything to weaken the military, and then when the new mixed Obama Blend military fails to function he will call in UN troops.


10 posted on 01/25/2013 5:21:54 AM PST by Eye of Unk (AR2 2013 is the American Revolution part 2 of 2013)
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To: suspects

From what I understand, he is not “free to lift the ban on women”. It’s supposed to go through congress.


11 posted on 01/25/2013 5:21:58 AM PST by albie
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To: maine yankee

the women will test okay on paper, but won’t be able to do the physical part


12 posted on 01/25/2013 5:22:42 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: suspects
Ask a combat veteran you know how he would have felt knowing that, after being wounded in combat, the only person around to pick him up and carry him to safety was a 5-foot-3, 120-pound woman.

A friend, former Marine, and I just had this conversation over coffee.
It came up - would you rather have a woman in excellent shape or a raging queer worried about his hair doing the job.
We like the woman, given that choice.

13 posted on 01/25/2013 5:24:53 AM PST by grobdriver (Sic semper tyrannis!)
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To: suspects

This has a lot more to do with the left recruiting for the purpose of increasing numbers *in uniform* who will follow the dictates of Obama’s regime and the getting-to-be-fanatical dogma of his palace media.

For every woman who dares, and is motivated, to defend our Bill of Rights, Obama will try to defeat her by recruiting 2 or more women who can be led and ordered to fight against that woman.

Obama will claim, that if you are against women being in combat, then you are making war on women.

Obama will claim, that if you are against women being in combat, then your argument that women have the right to keep and bear Arms is “irrelevant,” as the left is so fond of saying.

Practically every move by Obama, is a courtroom parlor trick intended to sow the seeds of doubt among the jurors.

Obama does not believe that women should be in combat; rather, he believes the statistics from surveys conducted by the teams who gave him and the left, pre-election feedback, that allowed him/the left to sow doubt while also maintaining the turnout of women for Obama.

It is *all* about being *for Obama* and particularly, women being made to fear being without Obama, without NPR, without PBS.

At some point, Obama will have his palace media claiming that “Men want to take away your cell phones!”

Obama is going to increase the “rights” that women have *under Obama’s nationalizing socialism* and pose the Bill of Rights as a threat to them.

He’s out to buy souls, and he’s not paying for it.


14 posted on 01/25/2013 5:32:40 AM PST by First_Salute (May God save our democratic-republican government, from a government by judiciary.)
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To: suspects

As I said before, they should legislate no more boys/girls teams in any sports - from HS to Olympics. No more NWBA - from now on they play with the NBA.


15 posted on 01/25/2013 5:38:52 AM PST by Arlis (.)
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To: suspects

As long as they don’t lower the standards in ANY way, then I say if a woman can do they job and wants to do the job, then let her.


16 posted on 01/25/2013 5:39:07 AM PST by TexasFreeper2009 (Obama lied .. the economy died.)
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To: suspects
“Inclusion of women in (combat) roles results in a segment of the force that is physically weaker, more prone to injury (both physical and psychological), less physically aggressive, able to withstand less pain, less willing to take physical risks, less motivated to kill, less likely to be available to deploy when ordered to (partly, but not exclusively because of pregnancy), more expensive to recruit, and less likely to remain in the service even for the length of their initial contracts.”

Other than that — this is a great idea!

17 posted on 01/25/2013 5:40:47 AM PST by Rummyfan (Iraq: it's not about Iraq anymore, it's about the USA!)
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To: albie

um... the president is the commander in chief of the armed forced and can do pretty much anything he wants. Of course the next president can then undo those things just as easy.


18 posted on 01/25/2013 5:41:24 AM PST by TexasFreeper2009 (Obama lied .. the economy died.)
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To: TexasFreeper2009

I suppose their are a handful of mutant women out there who could do the job.


19 posted on 01/25/2013 5:42:46 AM PST by TexasFreeper2009 (Obama lied .. the economy died.)
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To: suspects

The military could hire Amazon women for the job!


20 posted on 01/25/2013 5:47:21 AM PST by Jack Hydrazine (It's the end of the world as we know it and I feel fine!)
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To: TexasFreeper2009
Israel is the only nation with real-world experience putting women in combat. Having gained that experience, Israel has banned women from combat units since 1950. Israel’s lessons were hard-won; the feminists in Congress have yet to learn them.

The first lesson is that men could be taught to kill strangers, but they would not stop caring for women. That is as it should be: civilized countries want to create soldiers, not savages. During the 1948 War of Liberation Israeli men would abandon their missions to come to the aid of women in distress, thereby endangering their missions, their units and themselves.

Lesson Two: The Israeli public was deeply distressed by maimed, disfigured and dead women soldiers. Israelis were horrified at the thought of their women in enemy captivity. In 1979, in testimony before the Military Personnel Subcommittee of the House Committee on Armed Services, Brigadier General Andrew J. Gatsis recalled that Israeli Defense Minister Moshe Dayan had told him that during the War of Liberation “we had a constant fear of what the Arabs would do if they captured them [the women],” and that the men could not stand the psychological stress” of watching women being killed or captured. He recalled that Dayan felt that women in combat units “knocked down their effectiveness.”

Lesson Three: Women really are the weaker sex. It takes twice as many women to lift heavy equipment. That’s twice as many targets for the enemy, twice as many mouths to feed, twice as many women to transport. It takes women longer to accomplish physically challenging tasks such as digging a foxhole or a gun emplacement. Therefore, large numbers of women in combat would be a logistical nightmare.

Lesson Four: When the Muslim opposition discovered that they were fighting women, the Arabs spontaneously chose to fight to the death. The very thought of being defeated by a band of women was so shameful to them that it made them implacable. They would not surrender to women. Every encounter became bitter and protracted. For a small country surrounded by millions of hostile neighbors, these drawn-out struggles were a formula for national ruin.

21 posted on 01/25/2013 5:50:12 AM PST by jpsb
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To: suspects
Yes, Israel has women in combat roles.

Debunking the Israeli 'women in combat' myth.

22 posted on 01/25/2013 5:52:43 AM PST by Former Fetus (Saved by grace through faith)
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To: suspects

None of it matters anymore. This has been going on for 40 years or more and there are plenty of women in combat and who have died.

The problem has always been whether or not women were on the same plain as men. Men don’t have any choice in their assignment and women should not either. Draft registration for all. If you are assigned to a combat unit as a woman then you have no choice. If you are on a pending, or current deployment or assignment and you become pregnant then that is malingering. Whatever the conditions in the area of deployment, you get no special consideration. If you are assigned to combat arms and you cannot meet the physical requirements of the men then you are out or receive the same treatment as a man who cannot meet the requirements.

I don’t believe that any of this is truly practical, even currently. The women do receive special considerations that men do not and that does hurt unit cohesion and morale.

It all should be completely gender neutral, no exceptions, no diminishing of standards.


23 posted on 01/25/2013 5:53:06 AM PST by RJS1950 (The democrats are the "enemies foreign and domestic" cited in the federal oath)
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To: jpsb

wow, all good points


24 posted on 01/25/2013 5:54:01 AM PST by TexasFreeper2009 (Obama lied .. the economy died.)
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To: suspects

I experienced it when women entered the Fire Department.

Some of them try really hard, but -—————

Their injury rate is much higher. There are tools they cannot use for lack of physical strength, the jaws of life arent feathers.Starting gas powered tools is tough on them.Waking up stairs with 35 lbs of protective clothing and 50 lbs of Firefighting gear is not for the weaker set.
Then we have the pregnancy thing where they have to get placed on light duty, and then dissappear when the baby is born for a length of time.They come back out of shape and more useless than before.

The officers in charge of them are asked how the women are making out, and they all say, they are great. What else can they say if they ever want a promotion? They aren’t idiots, they know the system.


25 posted on 01/25/2013 5:57:51 AM PST by Venturer
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To: RJS1950

Not the same “plain”, the same “plane”


26 posted on 01/25/2013 5:58:26 AM PST by yldstrk (My heroes have always been cowboys)
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To: FrogMom

Yep. If O gets his way, our military will be emasculated, and we would be out of our minds to deploy it anywhere without expecting to get our teeth kicked in.

Part of the European Welfare State model that he years for includes a hollowed out military where the army is a jobs program, and procurement is a graft machine.


27 posted on 01/25/2013 6:04:04 AM PST by drbuzzard (All animals are created equal, but some are more equal than others.)
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To: Timber Rattler

You meant to say “Band Of Mothers”, I am sure.


28 posted on 01/25/2013 6:07:41 AM PST by ABN 505
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To: suspects

Progressives see the military as the employer of last resort, and a nice social theory testing area. And that’s it.

They don’t care about the effect women will have on large scale ground combat because they don’t ever intend to get in one. Obama’s drone warfare with the occasional SOF raid is the most progressives are going to want out of the military, and the rest is merely a make-work program with a nominal function. A post-office-writ-large.

The idea is to raise the standards downward until everyone can meet it, and nobody’s feelings are hurt. The idea of the military as a whetstone for competition and victory is utterly abhorrent to them, but the idea of letting everyone get paid a nice government salary to wear a uniform and look busy is pretty much nirvana.


29 posted on 01/25/2013 6:10:14 AM PST by Steel Wolf ("Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master." - Gaius Sallustius Crispus)
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To: maine yankee
Same test to get into the military Same aptitude, education, and physical ability. Same training. Technical,emotional, and physical

Right. Just like police, fire, and sanitation.

Those lasted about five minutes.

30 posted on 01/25/2013 6:11:18 AM PST by Jim Noble (When strong, avoid them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise.)
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To: Venturer

I remember an incident that happenedone day.

A man who wanted a transfer to a ore active company had put in for it a few times and been turned down because he was needed where he was.

he and this “woman”—sometimes it is hard to tell. Got in an argument. She claimed she could do anything he could. Well he had seen her in action and knew better, but the argument continued until he said lets go settle this in the alley. Let’s go, we will see how bad you are.
Of course she refused and went to the Capt.
The kid got transferred the next day.

He went to the Company he wanted to go to, and the Company he was at lost a good man.


31 posted on 01/25/2013 6:13:17 AM PST by Venturer
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To: suspects

One very critical, but neglected reason, to not put women in combat is that many males are biologically designed to protect women as a priority. When they see women at risk, even in a movie, they get a powerful instinctual and physiological response. For many men it is overwhelming. They cannot do other things until the female is in a more acceptable condition of safety. They will even sacrifice their own lives.

And not coincidentally, those men are often the very best combat soldiers. They cannot be disciplined or trained to not react this way, for the two things go together.

And just one of these men in combat is worth 50 ordinary men or women. While an ordinary man might have no problem at all in sending women out to draw fire, he would likewise be mediocre to poor as a combat soldier, no matter his training or level of physical fitness.

One of the great illusions of modern armies is that ordinary men can be made into capable warriors. But this is belied by combat support and combat service support outnumbering combat soldiers by 15 to 1 or more. That is, they work fine as combat “multipliers”, but actual combat is up to warriors.

The flip side to this is PTSD. Warrior type men have much higher resistance to it than do ordinary men. A few are even impervious to it. But ordinary men can be subdivided into blocs in which some will experience PTSD with minimal stress or even the threat of stress; some will take a typical amount of stress before they start experiencing it; some will be able to handle it somewhat longer, with longer or shorter recovery; and a minority will take a long time to get it, and recover on their own much faster.

So add this all up.

By putting women in combat, you will either render ineffective or kill your best and most capable soldiers, and those least likely to experience PTSD. And while leftists absolutely do not care about this, or are even in favor of a much less capable military, mission accomplishment will also become a thing of the past.

But leftists do not care. They do not care if casualties and killed among our military are ten times or more what they are today. They do not care. They want what they want, and reality and common sense and human suffering be damned.


32 posted on 01/25/2013 6:20:14 AM PST by yefragetuwrabrumuy (Best WoT news at rantburg.com)
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To: Venturer

I read this during the Tailhook scandal in 1991, can anyone comment?

“If the military evaluates 100 males and 100 females for physical fitness & strength, the findings tend to show that the ten strongest women have the same level of fitness as the ten weakest men in the total sample of 200.”


33 posted on 01/25/2013 6:38:27 AM PST by elcid1970 ("The Second Amendment is more important than Islam.")
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To: yldstrk

Sure, with a nod to the spelling nazis.


34 posted on 01/25/2013 6:47:40 AM PST by RJS1950 (The democrats are the "enemies foreign and domestic" cited in the federal oath)
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To: suspects

What’s incredible is that those who would prefer to keep women from being maimed on the front lines are portrayed as anti-woman by the left.


35 posted on 01/25/2013 6:55:17 AM PST by Yardstick
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To: suspects

This is what a combat soldier should look like and one of the reasons why.

(How many lives will be lost because of this policy? How many?)


36 posted on 01/25/2013 7:02:39 AM PST by 444Flyer (Obama killed the Twinkie, but not the terrorists in Benghazi. What's wrong with this picture?)
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To: 444Flyer

Male combat soldiers better get used to performing the “buddy carry” on their female counterparts when they fail to keep up.


37 posted on 01/25/2013 7:13:32 AM PST by TADSLOS ( "I ask sir, what is the militia? It is the whole people except for a few politicians."-George Mason)
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To: suspects

http://www.amazon.com/The-Kinder-Gentler-Military-Gender-Neutral/dp/0684852918


38 posted on 01/25/2013 7:18:00 AM PST by pabianice (washington, dc ..)
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To: RJS1950

Excellent post... I hope you don’t mind if I cut & Paste for use on some other boards... where liberals will be confronted with reality.

I’ve never been in the military... but, from what I’ve heard, the ACTUAL FIGHTING time is usually brief, and limited... MOST of the time is spent in preparation, or... WAITING.

I’ve assumed that women would likely perform OK in the actual fighting... but, having them everywhere during the “down time” adds a number of, um.... complications.

Debatable, I suppose.... but, your points are not.


39 posted on 01/25/2013 7:26:16 AM PST by SomeCallMeTim ( The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would hire them)
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To: RJS1950

Excellent post... I hope you don’t mind if I cut & Paste for use on some other boards... where liberals will be confronted with reality.

I’ve never been in the military... but, from what I’ve heard, the ACTUAL FIGHTING time is usually brief, and limited... MOST of the time is spent in preparation, or... WAITING.

I’ve assumed that women would likely perform OK in the actual fighting... but, having them everywhere during the “down time” adds a number of, um.... complications.

Debatable, I suppose.... but, your points are not.


40 posted on 01/25/2013 7:26:40 AM PST by SomeCallMeTim ( The best minds are not in government. If any were, business would hire them)
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To: Eye of Unk

Heard something bizarre yesterday on local radio I would like comments on. A caller made a comment about Gay soldiers having a time out card that they can pull anytime training exercises get too hard. The pulling of the card requires that the soldier is given time out to rest. I hope this guy was full of you know what, but in today’s world who knows.


41 posted on 01/25/2013 7:47:52 AM PST by redangus
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To: Eye of Unk

Heard something bizarre yesterday on local radio I would like comments on. A caller made a comment about Gay soldiers having a time out card that they can pull anytime training exercises get too hard. The pulling of the card requires that the soldier is given time out to rest. I hope this guy was full of you know what, but in today’s world who knows.


42 posted on 01/25/2013 7:47:57 AM PST by redangus
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To: suspects

Has anyone asked women if they really, really want to go into combat? Who, man or woman, in their right mind really “want” to be involved in the nastiness of combat? Insanity reigns supreme.


43 posted on 01/25/2013 8:52:24 AM PST by lakecumberlandvet
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To: RJS1950

This has been going on for 40 years or more and there are plenty of women in combat and who have died.
_______________________________________________

the 8 women on the Vietnam Wall were all nurses...


44 posted on 01/25/2013 6:44:52 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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To: RJS1950

Ode to the Spell Check

Eye halve a spelling chequer
It cam with my pea sea
It plainly marques four my revue
Miss steaks eye kin knot sea.

Eye strike a key and type a word
And weight four it two say
Weather eye am wrong oar write
It shows me strait a weigh.

As soon as a mist ache is maid
It nose bee fore two long
And eye can put the error rite
Its rare lea ever wrong.

Eye have run this poem threw it
I am shore your pleased two no
Its letter perfect awl the weigh
My chequer tolled me sew!


45 posted on 01/25/2013 6:56:21 PM PST by Tennessee Nana
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