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Dresden deserves to be remembered
UK Telegraph ^ | 02/13/2013 | Tom Chivers

Posted on 02/13/2013 9:04:00 AM PST by Kid Shelleen

It's the 68th anniversary of the Dresden bombing. In Britain, we don't think about it as much as, perhaps, we should. The bare facts. More than 1,200 RAF and USAAF bombers attacked the city between the 13th and 15th of February 1945, in four raids. They dropped 3,900 tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs, killing between 22,000 and 25,000 people, almost all civilians. The city's anti-aircraft defences had all been moved to defend the industrial works of the Ruhr valley. The details are chilling.

(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: anniversary; dresden; raf; wwii
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To: Kid Shelleen

The firebombing of Dresden was a war crime. It was a massacre, wanton annihilation in the vein of Attila the Hun. This “It was war” excuse is unmitigated BS like this whole WWII was a good war. It can’t be a good war when the war was prosecuted by that effete Communist FDR, the USA’s closest ally was the blood-soaked Soviet Union, and when the war was over Communism spread over half the world. Uncle Joe Stalin won WWII and the USA helped him do it. America is paying for it now as the Communists complete their takeover here.


151 posted on 02/13/2013 10:30:15 AM PST by Count of Monte Fisto
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To: muawiyah
Take it and stuff it ~ Sun Tsu advocated and carried out multiple genocides ~

And according to muawiyah, the way to stop that sort of thing is...to have moral outrage.

Like that will help.

The fact that force must be countered with greater force will not go away because you wish it so.

Sun Tsu pointed out what is required to not be on the receiving end of genocide when war comes that will bring it to somebody.

The Germans were bringing Genocide to a lot of people. Total war in kind was the only thing that was capable of stopping it.

152 posted on 02/13/2013 10:32:05 AM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: Sirius Lee
I keep hearing Germans apologizing for bombing London.

I've ofter wondered why the bleeding hearts almost always fail to mention the blitz and the V2 rockets.

153 posted on 02/13/2013 10:32:30 AM PST by dearolddad (/i>)
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To: Count of Monte Fisto
You're missing out on historical facts.
    Dresden was a major rail nexus
    Dresden was Germany's seventh-largest city and the largest remaining unbombed built-up area.
    An official 1942 guide to the city described it as "one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich".
    As late as 1944 the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops that were supplying the Wehrmacht with war materiel.

Dresden was a military target - moreover it was the best target for night-time bombers that existed at that stage of the war.

Bombing it was in no sense a war crime.

154 posted on 02/13/2013 10:36:26 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: Squawk 8888

I knew that and probably should have stated so in my post.

But the deal was secret, and Stalin did indeed claim he was acting in defense of minorities in eastern Poland. And the various commie symp groups in the West supported him in this.

It should also be pointed out that the eastern boundaries of Poland were based not on any logical ethnic dividing line or ancient historical border but rather on the results of the Polish-Soviet War of 1820.


155 posted on 02/13/2013 10:38:57 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Kid Shelleen

I was stationed in Heilbronn in 69/70. It was bombed several times during the war. In the City Hall building there was a model of the city in ruins, 62 percent destroyed.

It never has occured to me to question or doubt why or that it was bombed.

The city is on a major river, and presumably the target of the night raids by the Brits were military and/or industrial.

It appears the US and Britain bombed Heilbronn over the war years, night and day.

That is how wars are fought and won. Anybody unable to grasp this reality is living in a magical fantasy world.

I wish we were fighting that way in Afghanistan. Instead of bringing Americans home missing limbs or messed up from multipl deployments over a decade, we’d instead be killing civilians until the war was won.

We so thoroughly defeated Germany and Japan in less than four years, and they haven’t spawned more warriors or tried it again.

Contrast that with pinprick precision, sparing the mothers of future warriors, and what we get is permanent war with islam.

I’m a very strong supporter of killing lots of civilians in war.


156 posted on 02/13/2013 10:40:37 AM PST by truth_seeker
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To: null and void

Would that be a preference for easy targets?


157 posted on 02/13/2013 10:40:37 AM PST by ZirconEncrustedTweezers (I'll stop being a cynic when the world stops giving me reasons to be cynical.)
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To: Sherman Logan

Acckk. Make that the “Polish-Soviet War of 1920.”


158 posted on 02/13/2013 10:41:01 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: IbJensen
Besides, if you read your history you’ll find that the Brits bombed German cities first.

Ah, the "they did it first" defense. If you read your history a little further, I think the race to include the civilian workforce as a target in WWII was already set by the precedents of WWI, where the Germans first bombed civilian London using Hindenburg-type airships.

In total war, both sides are guilty of escalation. The Germans were first to use trench gas attacks, then the Brits used them. The Brits were first to use tanks, then the Germans adopted them. It ends in horror, of course....and the resulting tolerance for inflicting and receiving it.

159 posted on 02/13/2013 10:41:43 AM PST by Scooter100 ("Now that the fog has lifted, I still can't find my pipe". --- S. Holmes)
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To: ZirconEncrustedTweezers

Of course, Stalin thought Finland was an easy target, too...


160 posted on 02/13/2013 10:41:46 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: mass55th
Yes. There was simply no way to smoke him out (to coin a phrase) without burning down the whole house.

It worked for a whole city block in Boston, the SLA, Booth, Waco, etc.

Arson is an acceptable the preferred police technique in your book.

Got it.

161 posted on 02/13/2013 10:44:39 AM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable tyranny.)
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To: Sherman Logan
for what he and many Muslims see as America’s misdeeds

"Seeing it that way" doesn't make it true.

There is no moral relativism there though many make a case for such.

162 posted on 02/13/2013 10:46:06 AM PST by what's up
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To: truth_seeker

I agree. Once committed, anything less than conducting and winning a total war is a fool’s errand.


163 posted on 02/13/2013 10:48:47 AM PST by TADSLOS (The Event Horizon has come and gone. Buckle up and hang on.)
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To: ZirconEncrustedTweezers

That, or picking a winner...


164 posted on 02/13/2013 10:49:39 AM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable tyranny.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Don’t bomb Warsaw, Rotterdam, Coventry.


165 posted on 02/13/2013 10:49:39 AM PST by Lockbar (Quality Factory Loaded Ammunition ------- The New Gold)
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To: agere_contra
Yeah, yeah. If Dresden was such a high value target why wasn't bombed before that? Could it be that they waited until it full of wounded and refugees.

Strategic bombing never slowed down German industrial production and was practically a non factor in determining the outcome of the war. It was only good for one thing and that was the destruction of civilians.

If you want to make excuses for the incineration of tens of thousands non-combatants that's on you.

166 posted on 02/13/2013 10:50:46 AM PST by Count of Monte Fisto
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To: CodeToad

Congratulations ! You just justified the nuking of an American city.


167 posted on 02/13/2013 10:51:35 AM PST by Kozak (The Republic is dead. I do not owe what we have any loyalty, wealth or sympathy.)
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To: Sherman Logan

The blood of Dresden is all on Hitler’s hands.


168 posted on 02/13/2013 10:51:42 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: SampleMan
Its wrong to judge people fighting for their lives, 70 years later.

So true. This is another case of victimizing the perpetrator which creeps into even this forum.

The allies had suffered enough. IMO they can be forgiven for bombing the life out of the last remaining German industrial city if there was even a chance it would continue to contribute to killing their own.

When your loved ones' lives are at stake one can be forgiven for taking the lives of the perpetrators; in the situation one would laugh at the trial lawyers' argument to stop because there are some innocents among them.

169 posted on 02/13/2013 10:53:08 AM PST by what's up
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To: truth_seeker
Debate also continues on how much average Germans knew about the Holocaust

Well, this is anecdotal, but my grandfather toured Buchenwald, right after it was liberated. He once told me that anyone who said they didn't know what was happening there is a liar, because you could smell the place from 20 miles away.

170 posted on 02/13/2013 10:53:08 AM PST by wbill
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To: Houghton M.
Well put. I look at it even more simply--the headline reads, "Dresden deserves to be remembered." It should bother anyone if he argues, "it should not."

Hiroshima also deserves to be remembered, and to do so doesn't make one a "bleeding heart."

171 posted on 02/13/2013 10:54:17 AM PST by 1rudeboy
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To: wbill

One thing most don’t about Buchenwald, is that after the war, the Soviets continued to use it as a Concentration Camp.


172 posted on 02/13/2013 10:54:28 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

My grandfather used to speak at the men’s breakfast at the church about his experiences in WWII Europe. Of the things he spoke about often was the brutality of war and the amazing ability of humanity to come immediately after.


173 posted on 02/13/2013 10:54:45 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: celmak

“it simply strengthened their resolve to resist. Now, tell me what part worked”

Sure the people who lived through it may have hated us and been determined to fight harder...but the 20K 40K however many that died had their will to resist reduced to 0. That is the point of total war


174 posted on 02/13/2013 10:54:47 AM PST by azcap (Who is John Galt ? www.conservativeshirts.com)
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To: cpdiii
When we dropped atomic bombs on Japan it was mostly civilians that died and there was not a great deal of military targets in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki areas. This was a terror bombing and it worked and it worked well.

I am tired of this BS! The A-Bombs were NOT designed as "terrorist" bombs, but they damn sure were terrifying!!

Hiroshima was home to the 4th largest military supply depot in Japan! It was one of the busiest shallow-water ports in southern Japan. It was chosen because of the military depot, the industrial parks (there were several) AND because of the population level! The US wanted a small enough population to avoid excessive civilian deaths, WHILE taking out military and industrial resources!

Nagasaki wasn't even the main target for the second A-Bomb. The munitions dump at Kokura was the main target, but because the US did not want indiscriminate killing of civilians, military orders did not allow them drop the bomb WITHOUT positive sighting of the intended target! Due to weather and lag-time in rendezvous with the rest of the flights, they had to find their secondary target - Nagasaki. More importantly, weather conditions in Nagasaki almost thwarted this second run altogether, but they finally got enough clearance that they dropped Fat Man directly between two major military and industrial facilities - completely destroying the industrial facility and knocking out the deep-water ports within the city! As a side note, the ports were damaged, but the train-service was only disrupted where the tracks were missing - go figure! Again, Nagasaki was chosen based on the population levels and other military-rich targets.

If the US wanted to terrorize Japan, why wouldn't they have just dropped the A-Bombs on Tokyo and the Emperor's Palace? Because the Emperor's Palace was surrounded by three SCHOOLS! And Tokyo would have been too many civilians without many military-rich targets.

More importantly, the US dropped new, more detailed pamphlets in about nine cities, including Hiroshima and Nagasaki, telling them that their cities were going to be hit with an unbelievable force - it told them to LEAVE the city! So, if our intent was strictly to kill civilians and terrorize, then why would we tell them this? The Japanese, in an effort to conserve their fuel and aircraft also stopped defending and attacking small squadrons, and in both cases they signaled air raid, but then signaled all clear! Had the Japanese military done their part to protect their people, then neither of these would have even been a BLIP on our past-radar! There were only two support aircraft and NO fighter support with either run! And we told them where we were going to bomb!

Real terrifying!
175 posted on 02/13/2013 10:55:46 AM PST by ExTxMarine (PRAYER: It's the only HOPE for real CHANGE in America!)
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To: azcap

They certainly fought the Soviets harder, but in the West, they surrendered en masse.

Of course that probably had more to do with the stories of Red Army soldiers raping German women.


176 posted on 02/13/2013 10:56:22 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: Count of Monte Fisto

You seem to have a rather belligerent “name”, for such a passivist point of view.


177 posted on 02/13/2013 10:56:33 AM PST by Scooter100 ("Now that the fog has lifted, I still can't find my pipe". --- S. Holmes)
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To: azcap
but the 20K 40K however many that died had their will to resist reduced to 0.

LOL
178 posted on 02/13/2013 10:58:43 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Kid Shelleen

We are sadly rapidly coming to the point where the only thing kids are going to wind up learning about from WWII will be Hiroshima and Dresden, and how “bad” we were.


179 posted on 02/13/2013 11:00:48 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: null and void

So how would you have gained custody of Dorner? Please enlighten us all.


180 posted on 02/13/2013 11:01:28 AM PST by mass55th (Courage is being scared to death - but saddling up anyway...John Wayne)
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To: TADSLOS
Wrong. War is about nation building and soft power. Didn't you get the memo? Get with the program. /s

LOL Now we fight a more humane perpetual war where soldiers can be stationed in camps established by their fathers and grandfathers.
181 posted on 02/13/2013 11:02:38 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: MeganC

The issue of Poland is sad, but not as disgraceful as what occurred with Czechoslovakia at Munich.

The USSR didn’t invade until after the Britain and France had already declared war on Germany. The honorable thing to do would have been to also declare war on the USSR, but practically, they would have had zero chance of defeating or even defending themselves from an allied USSR/Germany alliance.

The USSR had declared that they were invading Poland to save it from Hitler. I doubt anyone believed that, but motivation was a moot point unless the Germans could be defeated first.

All of that said, the Germans left almost nothing in Germany to defend against the French. Even then, having declared war, the French and British sat on their hands until attacked by the Germans, who had time to reposition after taking Poland.

Had the French taken their tanks and airforce and attacked into Germany, while the German army was beginning its attack on Poland, they might have actually kept the Germans from taking Poland and simultaneously kept Stalin from jumping off into Poland.


182 posted on 02/13/2013 11:06:00 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: cripplecreek

They’re doing no such thing, and equating the questioning of what Jane Fonda said regarding our actions in Vietnam to the actions of the allies in WWII is intellectually weak. Anything Jane Fonda ever said is completely irrelevant to this conversation.

No one here is celebrating the Nazis, or celebrating the Japanese. They’re questioning the morality of incinerating thousands of civilians when that action would have no impact at all on the conduct of the war. I think Hiroshima and Nagasaki were justified. It helped the Japanese realize they couldn’t win. Dresden? I think the case is not nearly so clearly.

Your “bomb them all and let God sort them out attitude” is, quite frankly, boring.


183 posted on 02/13/2013 11:06:56 AM PST by bigdaddy45
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To: bigdaddy45
Your “bomb them all and let God sort them out attitude” is, quite frankly, boring.

Yet here you are commenting on it. LOL
184 posted on 02/13/2013 11:09:40 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: ExTxMarine
If the US wanted to terrorize Japan, why wouldn't they have just dropped the A-Bombs on Tokyo and the Emperor's Palace? Because the Emperor's Palace was surrounded by three SCHOOLS! And Tokyo would have been too many civilians without many military-rich targets.

And when we firebombed Tokyo killing 100,000 people in one night five months earlier?

185 posted on 02/13/2013 11:11:01 AM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: muawiyah

Failure of the United States ARTILLERY, or Snipers killing Adolph Hitler, in WWI led directly resulted in the rise of the Nazis and then the initiation of WWII.


186 posted on 02/13/2013 11:12:43 AM PST by Tahoe3002
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

The bat bombs we developed were for fire starting. And they worked well enough that they kept setting our stuff on fire. LOL


187 posted on 02/13/2013 11:15:05 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Houghton M.

Too many Freepers, being conservatives, love history, and get sucked into the History Channel and its clones which haven’t produced any historical value for a decade but do produce and endless supply of revisionism, watered down education, and numerous tidbits and facts that are packaged together in hairbrained explanations of history that would have been laughed at by any serious historian (or literate critical thinker) a generation ago.


188 posted on 02/13/2013 11:15:11 AM PST by azcap (Who is John Galt ? www.conservativeshirts.com)
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To: mass55th

He has to eat. He’s going to get thirsty. He has to breathe. He’s going to need to sleep.

He is in an isolate area, he poses no risk to the public.

Deliberately setting fire to the building (Police scanner intercepts indicate that no less than 7 incendiary devices were used, and that the arson was going “as planned” strongly indicate that there was no intent to risk taking him alive)

Me? I would have been inclined to fill the place with CS teargas, or some related non-lethal agent (pepper gas, retch gas or stench). In a couple hours they could have had Gov Brown authorize use of national guard non-lethal area denial equipment, noise, dazzle, or heat.

But I don’t have a need to kill him before he could testify in court. Nor the need to impose vigilante justice on one who killed some of my own. I trust the courts and the legal system to render justice.

That the police don’t speaks volumes...


189 posted on 02/13/2013 11:17:02 AM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable tyranny.)
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

Stop adding logic and facts. You’ll confuse him. Any argument that we tried to minimize civilian casualties in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a real laugher. (And I support the bombings)


190 posted on 02/13/2013 11:18:49 AM PST by bigdaddy45
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To: Sherman Logan

Dresden was as ideologically pure as a German city could get. Untouched by the ravages of war, its citizenry remained as fanatical as could be by that point in the war.

Just as Eisenhower paraded German citizens through the concentration camps, Dresden had to pay its own price.


191 posted on 02/13/2013 11:19:59 AM PST by Tea Party Terrorist (Those who work for a living are now outnumbered by those who vote for a living.)
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To: Tahoe3002

If the Nazis didn’t take over Germany, then the Communists would have.

There would have been war either way. The only question is who would have started it, Germany or the Soviet Union.


192 posted on 02/13/2013 11:21:25 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: cripplecreek

Yes, because stupidity needs to be nipped in the bud.


193 posted on 02/13/2013 11:24:01 AM PST by bigdaddy45
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To: TheRhinelander
"Only war criminals target civilians."

Define civilian, because its not the people who produce arms, food, security, support etc. to your chosen enemy. In fact the quicker you destroy the enemies COG, the quicker you will win wars.

If "civis" don't like that idea of supporting a war effort then join the resistance because just because your head is filled with propaganda, does not mean you are innocent.

War criminals are defined by those who win wars. Sad fact, but war is a sad process of the human condition.
194 posted on 02/13/2013 11:25:15 AM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: Kozak; CodeToad
Congratulations ! You just justified the nuking of an American city.

*shrug* Would most muslims hesitate for an instant if they had the bomb, and thought it would bring about a world caliphate?

Would Kim-il Unnngh hesitate?

Would China, if they thought could keep their fingerprints off of it, and they thought they could get the contract to rebuild?

195 posted on 02/13/2013 11:25:52 AM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable tyranny.)
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To: dfwgator
The Germans did just fine.....they got the Marshall Plan after the war....what did their first victim, Poland, get? They got the Marshall Stalin Plan for 40+ years.

LOL!

I need a new keyboard now. Have to put the soda down.

Sauron

196 posted on 02/13/2013 11:27:14 AM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: bigdaddy45

Whatever you say Miss Fonda.


197 posted on 02/13/2013 11:27:14 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: rollo tomasi
Sad fact, but war is a sad process of the human condition.

So don't start them......The Germans started it, we finished it.

198 posted on 02/13/2013 11:27:55 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: bigdaddy45
Yes, because stupidity needs to be nipped in the bud.

That's waisis!

199 posted on 02/13/2013 11:29:48 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: cripplecreek

Congrats!! Your bona fides as a complete and total intellectual lightweight are now confirmed. Did you stick your tongue out when you typed that too?


200 posted on 02/13/2013 11:31:22 AM PST by bigdaddy45
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