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Dresden deserves to be remembered
UK Telegraph ^ | 02/13/2013 | Tom Chivers

Posted on 02/13/2013 9:04:00 AM PST by Kid Shelleen

It's the 68th anniversary of the Dresden bombing. In Britain, we don't think about it as much as, perhaps, we should. The bare facts. More than 1,200 RAF and USAAF bombers attacked the city between the 13th and 15th of February 1945, in four raids. They dropped 3,900 tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs, killing between 22,000 and 25,000 people, almost all civilians. The city's anti-aircraft defences had all been moved to defend the industrial works of the Ruhr valley. The details are chilling.

(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: anniversary; dresden; raf; wwii
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To: IbJensen

He wasn’t happy about them being shoved into gas chambers either. Tough sh!t for the Krauts. They started the damn war.


201 posted on 02/13/2013 11:32:52 AM PST by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: dfwgator

Where’s that little black kid when you need him?


202 posted on 02/13/2013 11:33:13 AM PST by bigdaddy45
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To: cripplecreek
That we're reassessing that conflict even in 2013 shows that we gave a damn about Right and Wrong.

That democracies willingingly engage in such periodic reassessment is not a weakness, but a moral strength. We should. Bad thing happened. The only question is: Was our hand FORCED? Were we compelled by circumstances and action of the enemy to do these things?

My opinion?

Collectively, Germany got what she deserved. Collectively, that nation had to be punished, AS A PEOPLE, and had to be made to suffer horribly. They would respond to nothing less.

Individually? I'm sorry any of them had to die, and no, I'm not proud that we had to slaughter them, and it's a pity THEY MADE US DO THAT TO THEM before they responded to reason.

Sauron

203 posted on 02/13/2013 11:36:00 AM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: Kid Shelleen

“War is Hell!”

William Tecumseh Sherman


204 posted on 02/13/2013 11:40:39 AM PST by Rock N Jones
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To: Sherman Logan
The Soviet rationale for their action was that they were acting to protect the (largely) Byelorissuan and Ukrainian population of eastern Poland against German aggression now that the Polish state had collapsed.

Well, they may have rationalized it in that way (I have no doubt they did), but the fact is that the Russians negotiated the partition of Poland BEFORE the Germans had even attacked it.

The Russians were nobody's savior.

205 posted on 02/13/2013 11:41:16 AM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: IbJensen
Were you born stupid or do you work at it? Germany launched the war on Sept. 1, 1939 by attacking Poland and bombing it's capital, Warsaw.. England, an ally of Poland declared a state of war with Germany three days later. The Luftwaffe had been bombing British shipping in the English Channel all through the summer of 1940. Prior to that, during the ''Phony War'' of the fall and winter of 1939/40 The RAF was conducting raids on German cities by dropping propaganda leaflets. This prompted Luftwaffe chief Hermann Goering to thanking the RAF for ‘’supplying the Continent with it's ration of toilet paper''.
206 posted on 02/13/2013 11:43:22 AM PST by jmacusa (Political correctness is cultural Marxism. I'm not a Marxist.)
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To: dfwgator
Well that was WWII, we are all perpetual targets for some current ideology/faction. George Washington was correct in his first annual message to Congress in January of 1790 when it came to preserving peace. We must remain every vigilant against those who wish to kill us and guard against the trappings of mad men within. Also, avoid war whenever possible and if engage, end it as quickly as possible.
207 posted on 02/13/2013 11:45:48 AM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: sauron

I believe Germany could have defeated Russia if only they had treated the Russians with just a smidgen of Humanity......Originally they were welcomed as liberators from those who were happy to be out from Stalin’s jackboot. Even had a high ranking Red Army general, Vlasov, offering his services to fight against the Bolsheviks.

I believe it would have been very easy for Hitler to overthrow the Bolshevik regime, I think Stalin was toast if the Nazis managed to take Moscow....of course, perhaps Hitler understand his replacement could have been even more formidable.


208 posted on 02/13/2013 11:48:42 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: treetopsandroofs

“Remember to keep believing public education and Big Media headlines!

This sickens me. I feel like I’ve visited DU and need a bath.”

Wow equating me with a visit to DU sounds like a personal attack. Exactly what about my comment other than the allies lied about why they attack, which is a valid opinion considering all the controversy over this raid, reeks of DU? Why don’t you go pound sand instead of reading posts since you’re so sensitive. I’ll restate my opinion again. The amount of ordinance dropped on Dresden was enough to damage both the City and the outlying suburbs, where most of the factories were located. The fact they keep dropping incendiary devices in the city was to create the firestorm that happened. You want to have a debate about an historical event or what? And what does 70% or 100% have to do with anything? My point to bring that up was to just to throw out there that the Germans were pretty damn good at getting producing munitions at the end of the war.


209 posted on 02/13/2013 11:49:06 AM PST by BJ1
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To: rollo tomasi

You mean to tell me that Hitler would go through all of the trouble of killing every Jew in Europe, without eventually turning on the one country that would have had the most Jews remaining? And once Russia and England would have been defeated, what would have stopped him?


210 posted on 02/13/2013 11:51:30 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: BJ1

Hindsight is 20/20...we have the luxury of looking back and determining that perhaps bombing Dresden wasn’t such a great idea....guess what, most decisions taken in war aren’t the right ones.....the best of battle plans don’t survive the first shot.


211 posted on 02/13/2013 11:54:10 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

Other than the first run, ALL other bombing runs over Japan were prefaced with warning leaflets! How could we know that our bombs would be so devastating to their infrastructure? It wasn’t the bombing that did the most damage, it was the rice-paper/wood structures that continued to burn for THREE DAYS!

More importantly, we were at war with the WHOLE of Japan! They thought of Hirohito as a GOD who had to be followed and loved! So, unlike Germany where after electing their Dictator he went crazy (although he already was, just no one noticed), Japan was WILLINGLY fighting for Hirohito! As noted by the continous 90+% death rates as we did our island-hoping campaign all the way to mainland Japan.


212 posted on 02/13/2013 11:55:26 AM PST by ExTxMarine (PRAYER: It's the only HOPE for real CHANGE in America!)
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To: dfwgator

Agree with you, but Muawyiah (sp) started with the “Failure of the United States...” In 1920’s - 1930’s, the US was not a world power and could not have stopped anything, militarily. Only became a world power after WWII.


213 posted on 02/13/2013 12:00:44 PM PST by Tahoe3002
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To: sauron
The Russians were nobody's savior.

True, they just traded one set of chains for another.

214 posted on 02/13/2013 12:03:56 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: ExTxMarine
Japan was WILLINGLY fighting for Hirohito!

We're lucky that Tojo and Company didn't bump off Hirohito, before he went on the radio.

215 posted on 02/13/2013 12:05:13 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: ExTxMarine
There is more than a small fraction of Americans who think Obama is a Living God.

I wonder why?


216 posted on 02/13/2013 12:07:19 PM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable tyranny.)
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To: azcap

History Channel = Third Way Channel.


217 posted on 02/13/2013 12:10:50 PM PST by what's up
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To: azcap

History Channel = Third Way Channel.


218 posted on 02/13/2013 12:11:09 PM PST by what's up
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To: dfwgator
Third/Forth/Fifth etc. Reich or bust, which is why our involvement in the European theater was necessary (Although the USSR did most of the "heavy lifting" during that theater). Still the Atlantic, land mass, and our gun laws would of made an invasion extremely difficult; the thought of an A-bomb changed things a bit as well.

If you want some funny reading, Goebbels wrote an article a couple of weeks after Dresden about the future situation till the year 2000. He got the Soviet threat close but screwed up royally in his predictions for the British and US.

Go Gators! btw, not alumni but two sisters and a daughter makes me "surrogate" I think.
219 posted on 02/13/2013 12:11:59 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: Sherman Logan
Worked at what?

Saturation bombing of cities worked to break the fighting spirit of the German (and Japanese) people so completely that once their nations had surrendered there was nary a peep of resistance or any kind of serious insurgency. The civilian population knew that the allies wouldn't bat an eye at taking out population centers to end any continued fighting. Unlike in places like Iraq or Afghanistan, there was no real effort to hide combatants or terrorists as the people knew the result would likely be collective destruction of any population responsible. When the war was over, they were done.

We fought WW2 properly and when we won it was over. Where we have gotten in trouble since then are these attempts at separating a population from their government. This is a fools errand. It is why we struggle to really bring our conflicts to any clear conclusion now. People are responsible for their leaders. Period. That doesn't mean kill civilians that would support or otherwise welcome us. Nor does it mean we should kill just for the sake of watching bodies drop. But it does mean we should sometimes rain death and destruction on enemy populations when it seems clear this will help us win a war where the goal is total defeat of the enemy - and with no painful, bloody insurgency after the surrender documents are signed.

Make no mistake, flattening German cities caused absolute chaos through Nazi Germany. The revisionist history in modern textbooks is bunk. Those saturation bombings caused mass transportation disruptions, wreaked havoc on German soldiers morale who had families in bombed out areas, forced Germany to stack valuable anti-aircraft equipment at population centers rather than the front, wasted endless manpower hours rebuilding routine yet still vital infrastructure, and just generally impressed it upon the Germans (and Japanese) that we were prepared to do whatever it takes to win.

220 posted on 02/13/2013 12:11:59 PM PST by Longbow1969
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To: rollo tomasi
Although the USSR did most of the "heavy lifting" during that theater

Mostly due to Stalin's incompetence.

221 posted on 02/13/2013 12:13:05 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: dfwgator

Lol, Forth = Fourth, whoops


222 posted on 02/13/2013 12:14:39 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: Sherman Logan

I guess you skiped the class (smoking Pot) the day they discussed the bombing of London by your Nazi Comrades


223 posted on 02/13/2013 12:16:08 PM PST by MtnMan101
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To: dfwgator

“Hindsight is 20/20...we have the luxury of looking back and determining that perhaps bombing Dresden wasn’t such a great idea....guess what, most decisions taken in war aren’t the right ones.....the best of battle plans don’t survive the first shot.”

It’s funny, but I am not arguing if it was the right or wrong thing to do. My first post was simply that the Allies lied about the reason. Then I get three replies about something else.


224 posted on 02/13/2013 12:18:29 PM PST by BJ1
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To: dfwgator

The mistakes were probably another 5 Year Plan for the Bolsheviks in which 20,000,000 people needed to be killed I guess. Stalin probably did not care about taking mass damage in terms of population, so his erratic strategy was probable based on an eventual “Battle of Polotsk” scenario to occur, lol.


225 posted on 02/13/2013 12:25:42 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: dfwgator
We're lucky that Tojo and Company didn't bump off Hirohito, before he went on the radio.

Ain't that the truth. They very nearly DID, as you're apparently well aware.

It's a good thing we didn't bomb the Imperial Palace and kill the Emperor. We'd have had nobody to turn the bloody war "off" if he was gone, and even with Hirohito alive, he was almost prevented by military officers from so doing.

Can you imagine fighting an internecine battle stretching into the mid-1950's on the main Japanese island of Honshu? [shudder]

Sauron

226 posted on 02/13/2013 12:27:18 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: dfwgator
We're lucky that Tojo and Company didn't bump off Hirohito, before he went on the radio.

Ain't that the truth. They very nearly DID, as you're apparently well aware.

It's a good thing we didn't bomb the Imperial Palace and kill the Emperor. We'd have had nobody to turn the bloody war "off" if he was gone, and even with Hirohito alive, he was almost prevented by military officers from so doing.

Can you imagine fighting an internecine battle stretching into the mid-1950's on the main Japanese island of Honshu? [shudder]

Sauron

227 posted on 02/13/2013 12:27:58 PM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: Longbow1969

Sorry, I (mostly) don’t buy it. Not without additional evidence.

The question is not whether Allied bombing caused problems for the German war effort. Of course it did.

The question is whether it caused more trouble than the same amount of manpower, money and resources poured into other modes of attack. For example, additional armored or parachute divisions in France, or more troops in secondary fronts such as the Balkans or Italy. Or more trucks and jeeps to the Red Army.

The Allied bombing effort was immense and caused huge losses in American and other air forces. About 10% of all American dead in WWII were in Eighth Army Air Force. It cost vast amounts of money and consumed scarce resources such as aluminium at great speed.

Did strategic Allied bombing of Germany have a net benefit over the same resources put into other means of attack? Heck if I know. I do know that you just cannot answer the question by showing that it had some effect. You have to show that it had greater effect than the alternatives.

I’m perfectly willing to believe it, but I’d like to see an argument made with facts and numbers, which somebody has probably done. Not just assumed.


228 posted on 02/13/2013 12:28:10 PM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: dfwgator
I believe Germany could have defeated Russia if only they had treated the Russians with just a smidgen of Humanity......Originally they were welcomed as liberators from those who were happy to be out from Stalin’s jackboot.

It's a bit more complicated than that, but there is a lot of truth to your point. Germany managed to alienate some populations that were predisposed to welcome/support them. This was a grave mistake that resulted in especially ferocious partisan activity.

I believe it would have been very easy for Hitler to overthrow the Bolshevik regime, I think Stalin was toast if the Nazis managed to take Moscow....of course, perhaps Hitler understand his replacement could have been even more formidable.

Possibly. There is a lot of revisionist history about this in modern books and TV shows. Hitler's suspending the drive to Moscow in order to send forces to the Battle of Kiev was actually regarded very highly by many/most of his generals at the time. That Hitler was willing to delay the attack on Moscow he so badly desired showed military prudence in the minds of many. This allowed Germany to surround well over half a million Soviet troops and is regarded as one of the greatest encirclement operations of all time. This was not the reckless, silly, decision textbooks and documentaries explain it as these days.

229 posted on 02/13/2013 12:30:42 PM PST by Longbow1969
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To: null and void

No whining when it happens.


230 posted on 02/13/2013 12:39:03 PM PST by Kozak (The Republic is dead. I do not owe what we have any loyalty, wealth or sympathy.)
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To: All
With the German army on the frontiers of Germany we quickly set up GH and Oboe ground stations close behind the front line and this ensured the success of attacks on many distant objectives when the weather would otherwise have prevented us from finding the target. At the same time the bombers could fly with comparative safety even to targets as distant as Dresden or Chemnitz, which I had not ventured to attack before, because the enemy had lost his early warning system and the whole fighter defence of Germany could therefore generally be out-manoeuvred.

In February of 1945, with the Russian army threatening the heart of Saxony, I was called upon to attack Dresden; this was considered a target of the first importance for the offensive on the Eastern front. Dresden had by this time become the main centre of communications for the defence of Germany on the southern half of the Eastern front and it was considered that a heavy air attack would disorganise these communications and also make Dresden useless as a controlling centre for the defence. It was also by far the largest city in Germany - the pre-war population was 630,000 - which had been left intact; it had never before been bombed. As a large centre of war industry it was also of the highest importance.

An attack on the night of February 13th-14th by just over 800 aircraft, bombing in two sections in order to get the night fighters dispersed and grounded before the second attack, was almost as overwhelming in its effect as the Battle of Hamburg, though the area of devastation -1600 acres - was considerably less; there was, it appears, a fire-typhoon, and the effect on German morale, not only in Dresden but in far distant parts of the country, was extremely serious. The Americans carried out two light attacks in daylight on the next two days.

I know that the destruction of so large and splendid a city at this late stage of the war was considered unnecessary even by a good many people who admit that our earlier attacks were as fully justified as any other operation of war. Here I will only say that the attack on Dresden was at the time considered a military necessity by much more important people than myself, and that if their judgment was right the same arguments must apply that I have set out in an earlier chapter in which I said what I think about the ethics of bombing as a whole.

Air Marshall Arthur Harris defending his order. The destruction did give Allied leaders pause to resume the strategy of bombing high population centers in Germany. Stalin probably loved the carnage as he used it as propaganda for the East German students to consume after WWII when Dresden was under the German Democratic Republic, “those half-cocked, decadent, lazy Western Allies, shame on them,”).

231 posted on 02/13/2013 12:47:23 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: House Atreides

“Of course, your sense of basic decency may differ from mine.”

You’re seriously comparing Dresden to 9/11?

Your sense of basic sanity obviously differs from mine.


232 posted on 02/13/2013 12:47:29 PM PST by RFEngineer
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To: Kid Shelleen

My Dad remembered it well. He was there on one of the thousand-bomber raids, providing fighter escort. I don’t think he felt the same tender concern for the poor little Nazis that this story evinces.


233 posted on 02/13/2013 12:55:11 PM PST by ccmay (Too much Law; not enough Order.)
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To: Sherman Logan

“Moral judgments must be based on the intrinsic morality of specific actions, not on the identity of the perps or victims.”

The “Moral Judgment” of the declaration of war is all that is necessary to determine the “intrinsic morality” of Dresden.

You get to decide what is moral after you win. I very much doubt there would be much self-flagellation on the part of the Germans on, for instance, the Holocaust, had they won the war.

There certainly wouldn’t be concerns over the “intrinsic morality” of genocide from them.


234 posted on 02/13/2013 12:59:47 PM PST by RFEngineer
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To: dfwgator
I didn't know that, interesting.

The more I think about it, it may have been Dachau. Grandpa only talked about it once, and, blessed as I was with the know-it-all wisdom of an 18-year-old, I didn't pay close attention. I just assumed that there would be plenty of other opportunities.

It doesn't matter which, I suppose. The point would be the same.

He said one thing that stuck with me - after visiting the camps, he "knew exactly why he was over there".

And, I suppose, this bit is relevant to the thread. A fair bit of his (my) family was from Dresden, originally. Those who could, emigrated to America before the Kaiser started to get frisky.

Grandpa, while he was over in Germany right after WWII ended, tried to see if there was anything he could do to help the family who stayed. He said that there was nothing to be done; they either were all dead, or all gone, with no trace left either way. "Everything had been burned flat", was what he said, approximately.

I also remember him saying that 100,000+ were killed, not the 20-25K quoted in the article. I'd believe someone who was there to see it, I think.

235 posted on 02/13/2013 1:03:21 PM PST by wbill
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To: wbill
He said one thing that stuck with me - after visiting the camps, he "knew exactly why he was over there".

There was a Band of Brothers episode that dealt with the 101 encountering such a camp, the episode was titled "Why We Fight".

236 posted on 02/13/2013 1:15:16 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: ExTxMarine
It wasn’t the bombing that did the most damage, it was the rice-paper/wood structures that continued to burn for THREE DAYS!

We knew full and well what the buildings in Tokyo were made of and what the effect would be. We'd seen the effects after another incendiary raid on Kobe on February 4 showed similar results, and a much smaller raid on Tokyo on February 25 leveled a square mile of the city. On March 9, 1945, we sent over 300 B-29s loaded with incendiary bombs SPECIFICALLY to burn the city. The March 9th raid still stands as the most deadly aerial bombing of all time. More than Hiroshima, more than Nagasaki, more than Dresden.

237 posted on 02/13/2013 1:15:16 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: sauron
Ain't that the truth. They very nearly DID, as you're apparently well aware.

Now that would have potential for a heckuva movie.

238 posted on 02/13/2013 1:16:54 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: Bubba Ho-Tep

Interesting that they rarely mention those raids.


239 posted on 02/13/2013 1:18:49 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: Sherman Logan
About 10% of all American dead in WWII were in Eighth Army Air Force.

I remember being amazed when I discovered that far more men died in the 8th Air Force (26,000) than in the entire Marine Corps in WW2

240 posted on 02/13/2013 1:25:47 PM PST by Bubba Ho-Tep ("More weight!"--Giles Corey)
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To: jmacusa

Unfortunately for you, you’re the stupid one!

The comments I made regarding whose fault the war was were about the FIRST World War!!!!!


241 posted on 02/13/2013 1:26:51 PM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: muawiyah

You knew Kurt Vonnegutt? That’s cool muawiyah. Remember Ice nine - the creative horror in Cat’s Cradle? It was one of my childhood nightmares... Vonnegutt had one creative mind....


242 posted on 02/13/2013 1:28:02 PM PST by GOPJ ( Illegal immigrants: violent boorish party crashers. Send them home, call police - make them leave.)
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To: Kozak
...parents were on a train being evacuated from Oppeln to the West, trying to avoid being “liberated” by Stalin ( for a second time!). They were sidetracked just outside the city when the raid began. If that train had been a couple of hours earlier....

Great story. Did they tell you much about it? What did they see... Can you share a little more?

243 posted on 02/13/2013 1:39:41 PM PST by GOPJ ( Illegal immigrants: violent boorish party crashers. Send them home, call police - make them leave.)
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To: Sherman Logan
"Did strategic Allied bombing of Germany have a net benefit over the same resources put into other means of attack? Heck if I know. I do know that you just cannot answer the question by showing that it had some effect. You have to show that it had greater effect than the alternatives."

As a guy who was on the ground there, two things stand out. 1] After the Bulge, we advanced through Germany without an attack from their airforce. 2] Their trucks were propelled by a tank burning something other than oil. I don't know what the better alternatives were [except an atomic bomb] but the bombing worked out OK.

244 posted on 02/13/2013 1:40:03 PM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: Kid Shelleen

This is my new answer to these kinds of requests that I feel bad:

I was not alive when this happened. I am sure it was horrible. I cannot apologize for this any more than I can sympathize for those in Carthage, or Alexandria, the Somme, Pearl Harbor, Nanking, Sherman’s March to the Sea or the horrors of Andersonville.

I can hold an opinion on the war in Iraq, or the guy that cut me off yesterday.

I can study the past and use it to form an course of action when faced with similar circumstances in my life.

I simply cannot work up a whole lot of outrage about stuff that happened years, decades, or centuries before I was born.


245 posted on 02/13/2013 1:44:00 PM PST by Vermont Lt (Does anybody really know what time it is? Does anybody really care?)
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To: MeganC
"Dresden was a transportation hub and despite being considered an ‘open city’ the city was home to over 300 small-to-large factories that were turning out war materiel for the German forces."

Yes, that is what war is all about. In reality there is no such thing as a innocent civilian. Collateral damage is a misnomer. Anything that weakens the enemy's will to fight is OK, the no-no is the enemy becomes stronger in their will to fight. Something that Rumsfeld mentioned.

246 posted on 02/13/2013 1:53:20 PM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: dfwgator
I saw it. Grandpa wasn't with the 101, though he was in the same general areas - his unit was cut off during the Bulge, he fought at Remagen, and a few other places.

He and I watched that awful 60s flick, "The Battle of the Bulge", together. Afterwards, I asked what he thought. He said, "It was a fine movie." (it wasn't, but he'd not speak ill of such a thing) ...."but no one in it looked cold enough."

From then on, that's how I measure a war flick - by how cold, wet, tired, and generally miserable the actors in it look. BoB probably got it close to right. "Saving Private Ryan" likely did pretty well, too, and there are a few others.

But, if you watch war movies in general, I never cease to be amazed at how well-groomed and clean the characters look. Maybe they get a smudge of dirt or two on their faces, for effect, but that's all. :-)

247 posted on 02/13/2013 1:53:20 PM PST by wbill
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To: wbill

I find that the Russians actually did the best war movies, that is the ones that didn’t get too heavy into Commie propaganda, like “Brest Fortress.”


248 posted on 02/13/2013 2:01:46 PM PST by dfwgator
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To: wbill
"But, if you watch war movies in general, I never cease to be amazed at how well-groomed and clean the characters look. Maybe they get a smudge of dirt or two on their faces, for effect, but that's all. :-) "

I don't know any women who would live in dirt for weeks at a time. Maybe it's not your grandpa's army any more but it's not for parades either. Dirt is what the infantry is all about.

249 posted on 02/13/2013 2:03:21 PM PST by ex-snook (God is Love)
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To: dfwgator
I'v enot ever watched any Russian war movies...the few Russian movies I've seen, were mostly unwatchable. :-)

I'll see what youtube / netflix has to offer.

250 posted on 02/13/2013 2:06:57 PM PST by wbill
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