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Dresden deserves to be remembered
UK Telegraph ^ | 02/13/2013 | Tom Chivers

Posted on 02/13/2013 9:04:00 AM PST by Kid Shelleen

It's the 68th anniversary of the Dresden bombing. In Britain, we don't think about it as much as, perhaps, we should. The bare facts. More than 1,200 RAF and USAAF bombers attacked the city between the 13th and 15th of February 1945, in four raids. They dropped 3,900 tons of high explosive and incendiary bombs, killing between 22,000 and 25,000 people, almost all civilians. The city's anti-aircraft defences had all been moved to defend the industrial works of the Ruhr valley. The details are chilling.

(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: anniversary; dresden; raf; wwii
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To: muawiyah

“Failure of the United States to maintain effective neutrality in WWI led directly to the postwar conditions that resulted in the rise of the Nazis and then the initiation of WWII.”

Not according to current curricula.... Students are being taught that it was the “unfair” terms and conditions that were applied to Germany after WWI that started the second world war.


51 posted on 02/13/2013 9:36:03 AM PST by treetopsandroofs (Had FDR been GOP, there would have been no World Wars, just "The Great War" and "Roosevelt's Wars".)
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To: US Navy Vet
If the far leftwing Progressive movement had not made an attempt to hijack American democracy, Wilson would never have been President. WWI would have petered out during the Spanish flu anyway ~ just as it did.

That war, WWI and the aftermath is the proximate cause of WWII, and later the various wars in the Middle East.

52 posted on 02/13/2013 9:36:20 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: CodeToad

It’s unfortunate that Germany bore the brunt of WWI and severely punished economically with totally unreasonable lreparations as a result of the cowardly French and the ignorant rulers of the United Kingdom.

They not only paved the way for a Hitler, but insured WWII and the Japanese entry into that war.

There are so many good histories that delve deeply into this that it would be good for us to read and understand how this catastrophe happened.

So many weasels in the equation like Stalin who murdered his own civilians by the millions far exceeding Herr Hitler’s tally.


53 posted on 02/13/2013 9:37:49 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: muawiyah
Now, tell me what part worked

The German economy could not keep the German military supplied.

It worked.

Boohoo all you want about it.

I don't care if it hurt people's little feelings. I don't care if the survivors thought the allied forces were brutal meanies.

It doesn't matter one damned bit how much resolve they had. Resolve was unable to produce enough bullets, beans, petrol, replacement tires, warm clothing, or any of the other things the front line troops needed.

The battle of the bulge fizzled out for the Germans simply because they ran out of supplies.

It doesn't matter one damned bit how squeamish you are about war Muawiyah.

If there is a war here in your lifetime, there will not likely be only two factions and it will be fought at the level described here.

Grow up.

54 posted on 02/13/2013 9:38:16 AM PST by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

When Germany remembers this(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lidice), I MIGHT give a SHIT about “Dresden”.


55 posted on 02/13/2013 9:38:24 AM PST by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: cripplecreek

The allies lied why they bombed Dresden. It was to kill civilians of course. Most of the industrial capacity was located in Dresden’s suburbs, which were spared. I recall watching the History channel and they stated that in a few months the industrial capacity was back to 70% of what it was before the bombing. Pretty impressive considering much of the work force would have been homeless.


56 posted on 02/13/2013 9:38:30 AM PST by BJ1
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To: US Navy Vet

Well said.


57 posted on 02/13/2013 9:38:49 AM PST by MeganC (Liberals fool people by walking upright.)
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To: US Navy Vet

60,000 British civilians were killed in the air raids, 300,000 to 600,000 German civilians.

Your outrage is based on the assumption that all Germans were guilty of the misdeeds of their leaders, and therefore killing any German, even old people and kids, was fully justified.

How does this differ in ethical principle from Ward Churchill’s belief that all Americans are guilty for what he and many Muslims see as America’s misdeeds in the Middle East, and therefore the killing of any Americans, such as on 9/11, is fully justified?

In fact, since Americans freely elect our leaders, and the Germans didn’t, you can make a decent case that American civilians are more responsible for their country’s actions that German civilians were.

I think Ward was wrong, but I’m curious how you can logically disagree with him since your basic moral positions are the same. Except for the fact that you think calling “our people” is wrong, while presumably killing “their people” is ok.


58 posted on 02/13/2013 9:39:50 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: Recovering Ex-hippie

It’s called “War”.
One side loses, the other side wins.
I would like to somehow get that message through to our current leadership.
We been “dickin” around for A long time.


59 posted on 02/13/2013 9:40:02 AM PST by certrtwngnut (')
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To: IbJensen

So I assume your opinion of the Atomic bomb drops over Hiroshima and Nagasaki are similar?


60 posted on 02/13/2013 9:40:23 AM PST by bigdaddy45
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To: VanDeKoik
But they did have it coming to them.

The Germans as a nation, no doubt.

The individual old people and kids in those air raid shelters, not so much.

61 posted on 02/13/2013 9:41:17 AM PST by Sherman Logan
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To: KC_Lion

All wars go through progressive cycles of increasing brutality. The longer a war grinds on, the more brutal it becomes.

The American Civil War began with dress parades; it ended with corn cribs and hog pens in Georgia and the Shenandoah Valley being military targets.

World War 1 saw a “Christmas Truce” in 1914. By 1918, the use of every kind of gas was practiced on both sides.

World War 2 had an early phase of the deliberate sparing of hospital ships by both sides. By 1943, they were being sunk. The bombing of Warsaw and Rotterdam were considered barbaric. The firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo were simply the continuation of military policy.

“It is well that war is so terrible. We should grow too fond of it.” - Robert E. Lee


62 posted on 02/13/2013 9:42:35 AM PST by henkster (I have one more cow than my neighbor. I am a kulak.)
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To: muawiyah
Your 'substantial research on the matter' failed to reveal that:
    Dresden was a major rail nexus
    Dresden was Germany's seventh-largest city and the largest remaining unbombed built-up area.
    An official 1942 guide to the city described it as "one of the foremost industrial locations of the Reich".
    As late as 1944 the German Army High Command's Weapons Office listed 127 medium-to-large factories and workshops that were supplying the Wehrmacht with war materiel.

Dresden was well worth bombing.

63 posted on 02/13/2013 9:42:50 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Total war = no civilians.

Ask the Poles and Russians about what happened to their cities at the hands of the Germans.

Had the Germans been able to continue their attacks on London, it too would have been obliterated.

The fire bombings of Hamburg, Dresden, and Tokyo were awful, horrible attacks. That was the point.

The British did not start the war. Their losses were staggering and they had been fighting it for 2.5 years before we came in. Its wrong to judge people fighting for their lives, 70 years later.


64 posted on 02/13/2013 9:44:08 AM PST by SampleMan (Feral Humans are the refuse of socialism.)
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To: bigdaddy45

I never thought I would see the day when so many FReepers would raise their voices in agreement with Hanoi Jane.

And yes, that’s exactly what they’re doing.


65 posted on 02/13/2013 9:44:51 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: muawiyah

The part about there being 25K less of them to resist. Real war is about annihilation of the other sides ability to make war. The American Civil war was not won because the union generals had such ability on the battlefield. It was won because Sherman burned the civilians out of their homes and burdened the south with total devastation. Real war is won when the civilians can no longer support their army. We have managed to not learn that lesson. Hence we have yet to win a war since WWII.


66 posted on 02/13/2013 9:45:45 AM PST by Steamburg (The contents of your wallet is the only language Politicians understand.)
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To: treetopsandroofs

Well it certainly had something to do with it. The French and British kept their boot on Germany’s neck long after WWI was over. And the Germans, being disciplined and proud, didn’t like it too much. You can argue with it, but Hitler’s rise had a lot to do with the conditions people were living under.

Interesting how, nearly 70 years after WWII, which left Germany as a divided, destroyed nation... who is economically ruling Europe? The German work ethic is constant, and won’t keep them down for long.


67 posted on 02/13/2013 9:45:54 AM PST by bigdaddy45
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To: bigdaddy45

I would rather we used one bomb and dropped it on the Kremlin.


68 posted on 02/13/2013 9:46:42 AM PST by IbJensen (Liberals are like Slinkies, good for nothing, but you smile as you push them down the stairs.)
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To: muawiyah

You sound like s STUPID, SPINELSS, “Libertatian” SOB. If you think that if we would have stayed(sp?) out of WWI the Kaiser, and his Ottoman Buddies would have just “Left us alone” WRONG! Learn HISTORY the Germans were wetting up RIGHT here in the US a “Fifth Column” around 1915 or so. Would you have rather have had to fight the Central Powers here or would you have rather faught them in Europe and/or Asia. Oh that’s right Cowards like YOU would have found some other BS “reason” not to fight(just like COWARDS always have)!


69 posted on 02/13/2013 9:46:56 AM PST by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: BlueLancer
At the same time the Allies knew where all the death camps were and McCloy refused to allow any bombing of the railheads serving those camps ~ some suspect because his real master, Joe Stalin wanted to kill as many Jews as possible (one of the things the Kremlin and the Fuhrer Bunker agreed on).

So, no railroad bombing arguments are valid when you are bouncing around moral quandries ~

70 posted on 02/13/2013 9:47:10 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: IbJensen

Sure they didn’t...


71 posted on 02/13/2013 9:47:52 AM PST by Eric in the Ozarks (NRA Life Member)
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To: Kid Shelleen

**** The city’s anti-aircraft defences had all been moved to defend the industrial works of the Ruhr valley.****

Then the Germans should have declared it to be an “OPEN CITY”.


72 posted on 02/13/2013 9:48:05 AM PST by Ruy Dias de Bivar ( Too old to cut the mustard any more.)
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To: BJ1

“The allies lied why they bombed Dresden. It was to kill civilians of course. Most of the industrial capacity was located in Dresden’s suburbs, which were spared. I recall watching the History channel and they stated that in a few months the industrial capacity was back to 70% of what it was before the bombing. Pretty impressive considering much of the work force would have been homeless.”

Ah, so if they hadn’t managed to get back up to 70% (instead of 100%) in a FEW MONTHS, it would have been ok.

Remember to keep believing public education and Big Media headlines!

This sickens me. I feel like I’ve visited DU and need a bath.

Screw this. I need to take a break from all the leftism at FR.

I MIGHT be back, but I want to puke.


73 posted on 02/13/2013 9:48:05 AM PST by treetopsandroofs (Had FDR been GOP, there would have been no World Wars, just "The Great War" and "Roosevelt's Wars".)
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To: Sherman Logan

IT WAS WAR YOU STUPID BASTARD!


74 posted on 02/13/2013 9:48:33 AM PST by US Navy Vet (Go Packers! Go Rockies! Go Boston Bruins! See, I'm "Diverse"!)
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To: muawiyah

You seem to forget Bosnia. The Bundeswehr were very active there. The Bundeswehr will remain in Afghanistan after the USA cuts and runs too.


75 posted on 02/13/2013 9:49:02 AM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Steamburg

The British were horrified that the American militia would deliberately target officers and indian scouts but it worked. They were horrified at loyalists being driven from their homes but again, it worked.


76 posted on 02/13/2013 9:49:44 AM PST by cripplecreek (REMEMBER THE RIVER RAISIN!)
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To: Steamburg; cripplecreek
Real war is won when the civilians can no longer support their army.

Well Said, the Populace is always the weakest link.


77 posted on 02/13/2013 9:50:02 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Warsaw, Rotterdam and Coventry deserve to be remembered.


78 posted on 02/13/2013 9:50:02 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: CodeToad

” It was war, not a civil matter but a military one. Kill everyone and destroy everything until the enemy ceases to exist or unconditionally surrenders; that is war.”

But the first law the of the winner’s history does not allow this concept to be applied to William T. Sherman.


79 posted on 02/13/2013 9:50:20 AM PST by Rebelbase ( .223, .224, whatever it takes....)
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To: KC_Lion; cripplecreek
cripplecreek ~ Folks will just have to forgive my lack of sympathy for those who allowed, encouraged, or participated in events that led to the war.

KC_Lion ~ Remember, Many Supported those ideas when they first came around.

Just like many support Obama today.

The end of our trail isn't likely to be prettier.

80 posted on 02/13/2013 9:50:22 AM PST by null and void (Gun confiscation enables tyranny. Don't enable tyranny.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Tom Chivers should realize that Hitlers failed Von Rundstedt Offensive which was stopped in late January 1945, pissed off a lot of people. Hitler should of called it quits right there, unfortunately the Allies needed to teach Hitler’s Germany a lesson in humility so they began targeting city-area industries in mid-Feb.


81 posted on 02/13/2013 9:50:56 AM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: Kid Shelleen

I worked in a hospital as a nursing assistant while I was in college. One of my patients was an English woman who had lived through the London bombings. This was in the early 1970s and she was still talking about it, in fact, she was still terrified. The night crew said she would weep all night. When I came in the morning she looked to be a total mess. I don’t know what happened to her after she left our floor, but I will never forget the look of terror in her face as she talked about the bombs hitting all around her.


82 posted on 02/13/2013 9:51:30 AM PST by Slyfox (The key to Marxism is medicine - Vladimir Lenin)
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To: cripplecreek

It worked.
************************************
If your understanding of “it worked” is that large numbers of innocent civilians were killed then it “worked” — in the same fashion that the 9/11 attack on the WTC worked. But, you know, that doesn’t make it the right or moral thing to do.

Of course, your sense of basic decency may differ from mine.


83 posted on 02/13/2013 9:51:34 AM PST by House Atreides ( aFT)
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To: allmendream

If you have any doubts about the ‘national types’ in Europe, look where the EU is going and where they are.


84 posted on 02/13/2013 9:51:34 AM PST by jim999
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To: Jimmy Valentine

People who live in bamboo and rice paper houses shouldn’t throw firebombs!

http://www.militarymuseum.org/Hayfork.html


85 posted on 02/13/2013 9:52:06 AM PST by allmendream (Tea Party did not send GOP to D.C. to negotiate the terms of our surrender to socialism)
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To: CodeToad

War is about armies fighting armies ~ or it’s supposed to be. Sometimes it slips into the murder of civilians. Then it’s just murder. 52 million Europeans were murdered in the last century by firearms ~ that’s not really a firearms issue but you should ask yourself two things ~ why do leftists still not count those 52 million people when comparing American and European rates of homicide, and secondly why don’t they remember that it took the combined occupation of most of Europe by the American armed forces and the Red Army to bring that bout of murder to an end.


86 posted on 02/13/2013 9:52:06 AM PST by muawiyah
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To: SampleMan

“The British did not start the war.”

True. But they and their French allies were hypocrites in that they declared war on Germany due to their alliance with Poland while saying NOTHING about the Soviets who had simultaneously invaded Poland. Myself, I do not find the bombing of Dresden or any other city to be the most shameful episode of that war, no, what I find shameful is how the West allied themselves with the pigs and rapists from the Soviet Union so as to appease their own left wing populations.

General Patton was right that we should have crossed the Rhine and kept going on to Moscow and put an end to the scourge of Communism once and for all.


87 posted on 02/13/2013 9:52:34 AM PST by MeganC (Liberals fool people by walking upright.)
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To: Kid Shelleen
It is well that war is so terrible — lest we should grow too fond of it. - Robert E. Lee
88 posted on 02/13/2013 9:53:43 AM PST by Durus (You can avoid reality, but you cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality. Ayn Rand)
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To: null and void
Killing is Essential to Communism and/or all forms of Socialism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3uFUxMwA1w

Billy Ayers understood that

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2An9Qch2pQ

89 posted on 02/13/2013 9:54:21 AM PST by KC_Lion (Build the America you want to live in at your address, and keep looking up.-Sarah Palin)
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To: BJ1

City centers were the preferential targets for WWII bombers. Not just because bombing techniques were very hit-and-miss at the time.

Bombing city centers - where main rail junctions, telephone systems, city administration, and utilities were located - would result in the maximum amount of suppression of war activity.

The RAF learned this after the Coventry Blitz, when loss of crucial municipal infrastructure had a longer-lasting effect than the damage to factories.

Halving Dresden’s war-output for a few months with a single raid? That sounds like a good outcome - before it’s given the appropriate leftist spin by the History Channel.


90 posted on 02/13/2013 9:56:11 AM PST by agere_contra (I once saw a movie where only the police and military had guns. It was called 'Schindler's List'.)
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To: muawiyah
"So, no railroad bombing arguments are valid when you are bouncing around moral quandries"

Sorry, but that appears to be a strawman argument. Whether or not they were bombing the railheads to the camps is irrelevant to the fact that Dresden was still a legitimate target for both rail and industrial reasons. It would have been nice if they had been bombing the camp railheads, but then you would probably be whining about any German civilians who may have become casualties while living near those railroad lines and railheads.

Dresden was a valid target, pure and simple. The evidence is quite clear in that regard. Because we weren't bombing someplace else doesn't make it any less of a valid target. There is no quandry other than the false-front one that you are attempted to construct.

91 posted on 02/13/2013 9:56:11 AM PST by BlueLancer ("Oh, man, that's a lot of Indians!" [LTC George A. Custer, 1876, near the Little Bighorn Valley])
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To: Kid Shelleen

Interestingly, i was just in Dresden two weeks ago, on business. It was my first visit to the city.

Spent a full day wandering the city center, and a museum near our hotel, which had a Stalingrad exhibit.

Found a park nearby that had a statue erected to the Soviet red armies during the “great patriotic war”. I was a bit surprised that the statue was still there, 20+ years after the fall...

I still think the Soviet influence in the old East Germany is still quite strong. They dont have the infrastructure that exists in the “west”, etc. Interesting to note.


92 posted on 02/13/2013 9:56:15 AM PST by QualityMan (Don't Tread on Me)
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To: certrtwngnut

We started out fighting a “compassionate” war in 2001. How’s that worked out for us so far....?


93 posted on 02/13/2013 9:56:51 AM PST by CatherineofAragon (Support Christian white males---the architects of the jewel known as Western Civilization)
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To: Kid Shelleen

I think the world would be better served commemorating Coventry rather than Dresden.

What part of ‘war’ don’t these people get.
Dresden was full of skilled labor that added to their war machine. The skilled labor were a strategic resource as well as the ball bearings, etc.

When China finally gets around to attacking us when Obama drops our defenses, do you think they’ll want to keep around that small group of Americans that actually know how to make something anymore?


94 posted on 02/13/2013 9:57:09 AM PST by jim999
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To: Olog-hai

It can be argued that area bombing was ineffective and expensive. It was employed because low-altitude bombers could only get through at night, when precision bombing was not possible. The most effective bombing campaign was the USAAF’s precision daylight attacks on Germany’s transportation and oil infrastructure.


95 posted on 02/13/2013 9:57:19 AM PST by Squawk 8888 (True North- Strong Leader, Strong Dollar, Strong and Free!)
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To: muawiyah
it simply strengthened their resolve to resist. Now, tell me what part worked

The German's gave up less than three months later; the bombing worked to weaken their resolve to resist. War is hell; and the more hell the faster it ends.

96 posted on 02/13/2013 9:57:57 AM PST by celmak
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To: allmendream
When we dropped atomic bombs on Japan it was mostly civilians that died and there was not a great deal of military targets in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki areas. This was a terror bombing and it worked and it worked well. They surrendered after the second bomb. We made it clear to the Japanese that we had the ability and will to systematically erase their people and culture and nation.

THEY SURREDERED!!!!!!!!! and saved an estimated million casualites if we had to invade Japan. It is estimated that we would have lost 100,000 lives in an invasion. The Japaneses would have lost millions mostly to disease and starvation as we would have systematically removed their ability to feed and care for their people.

Terror works.

97 posted on 02/13/2013 9:58:35 AM PST by cpdiii (Deckhand, Roughneck, Mud Man, Geologist, Pilot, Pharmacist. THE CONSTITUTION IS WORTH DYING FOR!)
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To: Kid Shelleen

Back then wars were fought to defeat the enemy and gain victory.

WWII for the USA was fought and won in less than 4 years because the goal was to defeat the enemy - not to ask them why they didn’t like us.

Today our politicians have made war just another part of the FREE STUFF culture. They build our enemies dams, power plants, water treatment plants and supply them with the most up to date equipment. That is why “wars” today last 10 years an more. There are too many people making money off it and getting FREE STUFF.

Yet, the more of us they kill, the more we give them.

Then our government brings our enemies to the USA, puts them in the high government positions and in the military, and gives them better treatment than its own patriotic citizens.

When they kill us our government calls it “workplace violence” and protects them.
Dresden style carpet bombing was a better way to go.
If we had fought in Afghanistan the way we fought WWII we would have been out of there in 3 months and it would be a long time before anyone screwed with us again.


98 posted on 02/13/2013 9:59:27 AM PST by Iron Munro (I miss America, don't you?)
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To: muawiyah

“Now, tell me what part worked”

Well the part where the Allies WON the War and the Axis powers LOST the War.


99 posted on 02/13/2013 9:59:36 AM PST by SECURE AMERICA (Where can I sign up for the American Revolution 2013 and the Crusades 2013?)
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To: treetopsandroofs

I think we have been recently invaded by a bunch of trolls. Same bleeding heart stuff with the Chris Dorner situation.


100 posted on 02/13/2013 9:59:36 AM PST by hotsteppa
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